Condition Overload - rebalance suggestion

[TnaneverRisen]

I think Condition Overload is way too strong and has become mandatory to be competitive in higher level content (especially steel path) due to needing very minor/no status focus to gain large amounts of damage, and the condition requirement seems strange.  It also makes too other mods, which may take up similar mod space/total, unintentionally obsolete.

-It should give a damage bonus per status stack instead of per unique status type.  Right now, a target with 1 stack of radiation,  1 stack of corrosive, and 1 stack of slash (only 3 effects total), would get a 360% damage bonus....but a target with 10 stacks of radiation and 10 stacks of slash (20 effects total) would receive only a 240% bonus.  This seems like ridiculously bad design - especially when you consider that crits scale with this damage, so it indirectly strengthens crit-focused builds more than status builds....on a mod that requires status effects.  Something like 30% damage per stack of any status would be good, but include an upper limit of stack count so infinitely-stacking effects (like fire) don't give an unfair advantage.

-You should remove the invisible, infinitely-lasting unique effect from the Nukor weapon (or at least make it not count as a status for this mod), in addition to knockdown/lift melee "statuses".   These things are unintentionally making Condition Overload stronger - either that, or make it intentional by informing the player of what's going on by showing these effects as actual statuses like every other status does.

[Drachnyn]

I wouldnt go as far as calling it mandatory. Heavy attack builds are easily as good for clearing steel path nodes and dont require throwing every status effect in the book on an enemy. 

[TnaneverRisen]

I suppose that's one of the few exceptions...but it's probably even better if you include Condition Overload on the heavy attack build, for targets that need more than a few swings.

[KitMeHarder]

57 minutes ago, TnaneverRisen said:

-You should remove the invisible, infinitely-lasting unique effect from the Nukor weapon (or at least make it not count as a status for this mod), in addition to knockdown/lift melee "statuses".   These things are unintentionally making Condition Overload stronger

1. This is already the heavily nerfed version of this mod.
2. At the very least the lift effect was intentionally made to be a status.
3. I don't believe the Nukor Microwave status is "infinitely lasting". And it's not unique, you can put Peculiar Growth in the exlius slot of any warframe and every bit of damage will apply the status for 6 seconds.
4. This mod was nerfed/reworked before most statuses could stack.

[TnaneverRisen]

 

20 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

1. This is already the heavily nerfed version of this mod.
2. At the very least the lift effect was intentionally made to be a status.
3. I don't believe the Nukor Microwave status is "infinitely lasting". And it's not unique, you can put Peculiar Growth in the exlius slot of any warframe and every bit of damage will apply the status for 6 seconds.
4. This mod was nerfed/reworked before most statuses could stack.

Apparently it wasn't nerfed enough, because it clearly outclasses other mods for damage.  Even a maxed primed pressure point is a joke compared to this mod.

[KitMeHarder]

1 hour ago, TnaneverRisen said:

Apparently it wasn't nerfed enough, because it clearly outclasses other mods for damage.  Even a maxed primed pressure point is a joke compared to this mod.

That's why it's "conditional". You have to do something before it provides any benefit, unlike PPP. Outside of the Steel Path and hours long endurance runs, PPP is almost always better because you don't have to meet a condition.

Even if your melee weapon has 100% status chance (and it usually won't without a high combo Weeping Wounds), and you always proc a different element (again, not likely), you have to hit an enemy 4 times for CO to beat PPP in near the best case scenario. So if you if you kill the enemy in 2-3 hits CO is from much worse, to just worse. And it gets pathetically worse in an actual scenario wear you have like a ~40% status chance, and that's split unequally between usually 4 damage types...             so just don't.

And priming an enemy with a gun is that much longer you're not killing them. So don't forget to factor that into CO's bad KPS if you're going to argue from that stand point.

[TnaneverRisen]

44 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

That's why it's "conditional". You have to do something before it provides any benefit, unlike PPP. Outside of the Steel Path and hours long endurance runs, PPP is almost always better because you don't have to meet a condition.

Even if your melee weapon has 100% status chance (and it usually won't without a high combo Weeping Wounds), and you always proc a different element (again, not likely), you have to hit an enemy 4 times for CO to beat PPP in near the best case scenario. So if you if you kill the enemy in 2-3 hits CO is from much worse, to just worse. And it gets pathetically worse in an actual scenario wear you have like a ~40% status chance, and that's split unequally between usually 4 damage types...             so just don't.

And priming an enemy with a gun is that much longer you're not killing them. So don't forget to factor that into CO's bad KPS if you're going to argue from that stand point.

 

It's so barely "conditional" that the case you're making isn't even an argument.  It's so easy to get a couple random status effects without even trying.  Even one effect puts almost on par with primed pressure point -  anything past 1 and it's superior - ESPECIALLY in groups where status effects are happening all over the place.  The only argument you'd have is if you point out rare situations where that single proc is the difference between a 1-hit or 2-hit kill verses waves of weak enemies, which is rare and usually irrelevant anyway.

[KitMeHarder]

34 minutes ago, TnaneverRisen said:

Even one effect puts almost on par with primed pressure point -  anything past 1 and it's superior

You're not factoring the fact those prior hits did significantly less damage applying those status effects.

I don't care if the 3rd CO hit does more than a 3rd PPP hit, because the first CO hit did less then 40% of the PPP first hit.

[TnaneverRisen]

What prior hits?  It's often only 1 or 2 hits, and like I already pointed out, that only matters if you're facing waves of low level enemies that die in 1 hit instead of 2 with PPP.  When you're playing in groups, status effects are going on all over the place anyway, so it's literally 0 prior hits.  

The only time high damage matters is vs hard to kill targets, which take several hits, which means CO is always better when it matters.

[SpringRocker]

6 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

This is already the heavily nerfed version of this mod.

You mean when it was changed to how it was worded to give bonuses to damage instead of multiplying final damage exponentially?

It was never meant to to do that. it was meant to just to give +(X)% damage for every (Y) status, not (Final Damage) * X^Y.

[kevoisvevo]

8 hours ago, TnaneverRisen said:

I suppose that's one of the few exceptions...but it's probably even better if you include Condition Overload on the heavy attack build, for targets that need more than a few swings.

Not true, all heavy attack builds are pure crit focused hence the x2 crit buff on crit chance. Heavy attacks have little to no status to make it work. Hence you need weeping wounds aka combo for true status/hybrid melee to work. If you are putting condition overload over say sacrificial pressure then you are lower the double sacrificial steel buff

[Drachnyn]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb TnaneverRisen:

I suppose that's one of the few exceptions...but it's probably even better if you include Condition Overload on the heavy attack build, for targets that need more than a few swings.

Not necessarily as you need to put those status effects on the target in the first place. You're gonna waste quite a bit of time if you have to prepare every single enemy before hitting them when a heavy build with PPP would just one-hit them already.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

If you think CO is too strong now your brain would melt if you saw how it was before they nerfed it.

[Voltage]

DE severely nerfed enemies. That's why it's OP. Make enemies tankier and Condition Overload will take a bit more time to kill. It already got heavily nerfed from a final damage multiplier to base damage. You can't remove mandatory mods as there will always be something that is best in slot, especially when you only have 1 build on a weapon: reaching minimal time to kill (TTK) against a given enemy.

[fo3nixz]

if it was old enemies, the current CO will suck

[Voltage]

8 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

It was never meant to to do that. it was meant to just to give +(X)% damage for every (Y) status, not (Final Damage) * X^Y.

First off, it was left in one state for years.

Secondly, just because it says +X% Damage doesn't mean it's base damage. See: damage to faction mods, Primed Chamber, and Charged Chamber. The old formula was overpowered, but a final damage multiplier did match the description technically.

[Tiltskillet]

5 minutes ago, Voltage said:

DE severely nerfed enemies. That's why it's OP. Make enemies tankier and Condition Overload will take a bit more time to kill.

But if they un-nerfed enemies, CO would be even better relative to PPP, and even more of a mandatory mod and strategy.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing.  It's nice that a mod that requires a strategy is actually BIS. 

[GKP_light]

about gameplay, i think that the old formula was far better.

actualy, you juste need 2-3 status to benefit a lot of this, and try to apply more status is generaly less good than just hit more the target.

(and aply some status don't need any effort, and don't even need to have good status chance on the weapon, because the stance aplys status.)

 

they could put back the old formula, but with a bonus of 36% instead of 60%.

(and i think that an equivalent of this mode, for the main and secondary gun, with a bonus de 24%, would be very good)

[Galuf]

every weapons that have high status and high crit can dip everywhere. I think that to the contrary secondaries and primaries should have a similar mod and an alternative. Heavy attacks are not as practical as optimal whacking(whacking doesn't lock you in place) but the builds are way less expense and ditch up to way more theorical dps depending the weapon type.

About melee dominance, CO is a culprit but not the number one, honestly in SP you rekt with 1 or 2 status already(wich is +- primed pp), look again toward blood rush and weeping wound, those are imho the real killers there ^^.

[KochDerFrettchen]

I'm confused, what's your point in mentioning the nukor. Like, if I wanted another status on an enemy it would be faster to just swing again with my melee instead of weapon swapping.

Melee weapons are just an advanced mess overall, they can make use of so many multipliers at once that their damage gets wild on top of the fact that they have no ammo, and even the combo-consumption on heavy attacks can be majorly mitigated. Even the Skana can pump some stupid numbers as long as you have the mods, similar starter guns can't hope to compare let alone better ones.

[SpringRocker]

14 hours ago, Voltage said:

First off, it was left in one state for years.

Secondly, just because it says +X% Damage doesn't mean it's base damage. See: damage to faction mods, Primed Chamber, and Charged Chamber. The old formula was overpowered, but a final damage multiplier did match the description technically.

Which one of those specifies "damage" and not "bonus damage" or "damage to ____" you know, just "damage"? The modifier "damage" and another plus "damage" use the same modifier regardless if it's a Riven or standard mod. Things like "bonus damage" are it's separate modifier from "damage".

It makes sense that a "Melee Damage" and a "Damage" would stack as different multipliers, BUT even back then it specified "Melee Damage" on both Condition Overload and Pressure Point. You wouldn't get mad that a +100% +dmg Riven wouldn't double final damage and would instead stack additive to the other damage mod (like Pressure Point or Serration), would you? Same bonus types get added together, not multiplied together.

However no, it didn't. It had a separate modifier for each status that it gave bonus to. This is why it's exponential, +60% + +60% + +60% (for 3 status) was turning into +309.6% and up. Because this was still it's own set of modifiers it wasn't even modifying damage, it was multiplying FINAL damage. In the above example the previous iteration would MULTIPLY (multiply, not add) final damage by 4.096x.

Second off, we know how a lot of things should work yet they don't. We all know bugs that plague some weapons or mechanics that don't work right. Sometimes they get fixed after years but often times they don't. For example, don't tell me that whether or not you're zooming at the time of firing isn't supposed to have any bearing on [Critical Focus] .

 

TDLR: Same damage types add together, not multiply final damage. It was never supposed to work the way it did (DE even pointed that out).

[BahamutKaiser]

This is a silly change which doesn't impact the games quality. CO already faced a major nerf, and melee is OP either way, if they change this, then, nothing, it won't help.

It can only anger ppl who prefer it the way it is and build around it's current function, meanwhile wasting developer effort.

[Voltage]

3 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

TDLR: Same damage types add together, not multiply final damage. It was never supposed to work the way it did (DE even pointed that out).

That's just a cover up for bad design decisions. Someone created a formula that should have never left the dev build. Yet, it stays this way for years. Are you going to claim Maiming Strike being additive was a bug too? They had 3+ years to fix that one too. Lol

[(XBOX)Deqino]

Nobody: 

wf forums: hOw cAn wE nErF tHiS?

[SpringRocker]

6 hours ago, Voltage said:

That's just a cover up for bad design decisions. Someone created a formula that should have never left the dev build. Yet, it stays this way for years. Are you going to claim Maiming Strike being additive was a bug too? They had 3+ years to fix that one too. Lol

It's like you didn't listen to a single thing I said.

That's fine. Some people care about how game mechanics work, spend hours doing boring tests, post results on the wiki, have someone else verify it, and do the same thing over again when something changes.

Others don't know how things work and like to say things like "just because it says +X% Damage doesn't mean it's base damage." without know how it all works together. Keep calling it "bad design", there will always be people there to figure it out for you and and try to explain it in a way you'll understand.