Reb on Shy's stream: Many abilities are going to be BUFFED and hints for deducing selected abilities

[spirit_of_76]

4 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I doubt it.... Armor is only good up to 600.... you get Significantly diminished Returns going above that number....

Trust me.... I tested this with Umbral Valkyr Prime....  for a whopping 2000 Armor at all Times.... Still Died like she was Made out of Paper.

umm EHP scales linearly with armor the issue is armor can be bypassed so it is not as effective as having an equal amount of health.  IDK what you were doing where she felt like paper with a full umbral build 
EHP equation: HP*[(1+armor)/300]= EHP  
 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

16 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Overwatch, Titan Fall 2 any game that defines a role for a team tier. 

The set of items that went the downgrade road. Ember world on fire, Chatchmoon, Bramma, Mesa's "death blossom" while running and so on. 

The main problem with War Frame. War frame should be team based not co-op game. 

Assign one of the utilities like fast running of Tracer to Orisa. Same principle applies to War Frames. Their abilities are their identity. 

War frame abilities makes them unique. Transporting abilities makes the tier way too convoluted, IMO. 

You're not playing overwatch or titanfall. You're playing Warframe.

[Lutesque]

8 minutes ago, spirit_of_76 said:

umm EHP scales linearly with armor the issue is armor can be bypassed so it is not as effective as having an equal amount of health.  IDK what you were doing where she felt like paper with a full umbral build 
EHP equation: HP*[(1+armor)/300]= EHP  
 

Dont know what that means.... all I know is There little difference once you go above 600...

[spirit_of_76]

6 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Dont know what that means.... all I know is There little difference once you go above 600...

EHP is effective health points, total health after DR has been applied
y=mx+b is a linear equation 
also the prime's base armor is 700 IDK how you did not notice a difference between base and a fully built Valk I notice a difference between a full built Valk and Valk with warcry active.  

[Lutesque]

3 minutes ago, spirit_of_76 said:

EHP is effective health points, total health after DR has been applied
y=mx+b is a linear equation 
also the prime's base armor is 700 IDK how you did not notice a difference between base and a fully built Valk I notice a difference between a full built Valk and Valk with warcry active.  

I didnt Activate Warcry....

All I wanted to know was where Raw Armor stopped making a difference... using Abilities defeats that purpose. 

600 was the Magic Number....

 

[spirit_of_76]

Just now, Lutesque said:

I didnt Activate Warcry....

All I wanted to know was where Raw Armor stopped making a difference... using Abilities defeats that purpose. =

it does not  war cry is a melee attack speed and armor mod it only scales off of base stats it gives between +50% and +150% attack speed and armor from 100%-300% PS also that means that you did not have any armor mods on as prime and base have 600+ armor 

[Jarriaga]

31 minutes ago, spirit_of_76 said:

umm EHP scales linearly with armor the issue is armor can be bypassed so it is not as effective as having an equal amount of health.  IDK what you were doing where she felt like paper with a full umbral build 
EHP equation: HP*[(1+armor)/300]= EHP  
 

My problem with WF armor is that the point of diminishing returns kicks in rather early at around 900 armor IMO because damage is never reduced beyond 1, so there's a point in which you are dying by a thousand cuts when surrounded by Grineer with high fire rate weapons. This is particularly noticeable when doing solo Liches with Umbra.

At that point, higher HP is a lot more useful and desirable than higher armor. 

[Lutesque]

3 minutes ago, spirit_of_76 said:

% PS also that means that you did not have any armor mods on as prime and base have 600+ armor 

Nope... Compared her to a Different Warframe with 600 Armor...

4 minutes ago, spirit_of_76 said:

it does not  war cry is a melee attack speed and armor mod it only scales off of base stats it gives between +50% and +150% attack speed and armor from 100%-300% 

Dont Know What This Means... and like I said... Abilities are of no Importance for what I wanted to see... 

[Hiruma-Kai]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Dont know what that means.... all I know is There little difference once you go above 600...

Linear effective hit points is something like the following.

Damage reduction due to 600 armor: 300 / (300 + 600) = 0.33 of the damage gets through, or 67% damage reduction

If you have 1000 hit points, it takes 3,000 damage to drop you to zero.  Or 3,000 effective hit points.

Damage reduction due to 900 armor: 300 / (300 + 900 ) = 0.25 of the damage gets through, or 75% damage reduction

If you have 1000 hit points, it takes 4,000 damage to drop you to zero.  Or in other words, 4,000 effective hit points. In this case, 300 more armor has resulted in being able to take 1,000 more damage.

Damage reduction due to 1200 armor: 300 / (300 + 1200) = 0.2 of the damage gets through, or 80% damage reduction

If you have 1000 hit points, it takes 5,000 damage to drop you to zero.  Or in other words, 5,000 effective hit points. An additional 300 more armor than the 900 case again lets you take another 1,000 damage.  Or 2,000 more than the 600 armor case.  Every 300 more armor, if you have 1,000 hit points, it lets you take another 1,000 points of damage.

Whether ~8,000 effective hit points of a Valkyr with all 3 Umbral mods is sufficient to tank depends on exactly what you're facing.  Level 10 starchart? She can sit there all day.  Level 200 steel path?  Doesn't last too long standing still.  Between 700 armor and 2047 armor is a factor of 2.34.  So say, 3 seconds expected lifetime becomes 7 seconds, which is noticeable to me.  Might not be sufficient for very high level content, but a factor of 2 or more is something I consider as different.

If all you care about are factors of 10, then yeah, 700 to 2000 armor isn't going to seem like a difference.   Of course, from 0 armor to 600 armor is only a factor of 3 increase in effective hit points.  200% ability strength Warcry + Umbral armor mods is also about a factor of 3 from 600 armor, for around 10 times the effective hit points when compared to 0 armor.

[Lutesque]

3 minutes ago, Hiruma-Kai said:

Linear effective hit points is something like the following.

Damage reduction due to 600 armor: 300 / (300 + 600) = 0.33 of the damage gets through, or 67% damage reduction

If you have 1000 hit points, it takes 3,000 damage to drop you to zero.  Or 3,000 effective hit points.

Damage reduction due to 900 armor: 300 / (300 + 900 ) = 0.25 of the damage gets through, or 75% damage reduction

If you have 1000 hit points, it takes 4,000 damage to drop you to zero.  Or in other words, 4,000 effective hit points. In this case, 300 more armor has resulted in being able to take 1,000 more damage.

Damage reduction due to 1200 armor: 300 / (300 + 1200) = 0.2 of the damage gets through, or 80% damage reduction

If you have 1000 hit points, it takes 5,000 damage to drop you to zero.  Or in other words, 5,000 effective hit points. An additional 300 more armor than the 900 case again lets you take another 1,000 damage.  Or 2,000 more than the 600 armor case.  Every 300 more armor, if you have 1,000 hit points, it lets you take another 1,000 points of damage.

Whether ~8,000 effective hit points of a Valkyr with all 3 Umbral mods is sufficient to tank depends on exactly what you're facing.  Level 10 starchart? She can sit there all day.  Level 200 steel path?  Doesn't last too long standing still.  Between 700 armor and 2047 armor is a factor of 2.34.  So say, 3 seconds expected lifetime becomes 7 seconds, which is noticeable to me.  Might not be sufficient for very high level content, but a factor of 2 or more is something I consider as different.

If all you care about are factors of 10, then yeah, 700 to 2000 armor isn't going to seem like a difference.   Of course, from 0 armor to 600 armor is only a factor of 3 increase in effective hit points.  200% ability strength Warcry + Umbral armor mods is also about a factor of 3 from 600 armor, for around 10 times the effective hit points when compared to 0 armor.

Dont know what any of that means....

All I know is going above 600 isnt worth it...

 

[vFlitz]

32 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Dont know what any of that means....

All I know is going above 600 isnt worth it...

 

I mean, people are telling you that your statement about 600 armor has no basis in facts. Burying your head in the sand isn't going to make it true, it's just ignorant.

To put it in broad terms, gaining 500 armor is the same raw survivability gain when you're starting at 100 armor as it is when you're at 1000.

Of course, in the first case the gain will be effectively more valuable, because your starting survivability is small compared to what you gain, but in both cases the amount of hits you can take from the same enemy goes up by the same number.

It's like if you had 100 hp on one frame and 500 on another, and you increase it by 200. You get 300 and 700; for the one that starts low, the hp is tripled, for the one that starts high it's not even a 50% increase. But the raw gain for both is the same - 200 hp.

[Lutesque]

9 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

I mean, people are telling you that your statement about 600 armor has no basis in facts. Burying your head in the sand isn't going to make it true, it's just ignorant.

To put it in broad terms, gaining 500 armor is the same raw survivability gain when you're starting at 100 armor as it is when you're at 1000.

Of course, in the first case the gain will be effectively more valuable, because your starting survivability is small compared to what you gain, but in both cases the amount of hits you can take from the same enemy goes up by the same number.

It's like if you had 100 hp on one frame and 500 on another, and you increase it by 200. You get 300 and 700; for the one that starts low, the hp is tripled, for the one that starts high it's not even a 50% increase. But the raw gain for both is the same - 200 hp.

Facts and Numbers are all fine...

But Actual Gameplay is more important than whatever gibberish you write.

Here it is Pure Simple.... for one day I slapped the Umbral Mods on Valkyr Prime and did most if The content I usually do....

I noticed no Significant Increase in Survivability. Compared to someone like say... Frost....with just Regular Mods...

So I settle on a Flat value of 600

Use your numbers and Formulas if you want... Im not inclined to believe you....

 

[Marvelous_A]

I see this as a system to have players do the balance themselves instead of taking their time, like rivens.

It's unlikely for them to do any actual rework anymore.

[schilds]

Basically they are saying that there are no "diminishing returns" to adding more armour.

However, like most things in warframe, when you add to a stat, further additions to that stat decrease in value relative to additions to other stats (which increase in value). That is, roughly speaking (it's not always true), most of the time it is more effective to spread your stats around instead of focusing on just one.

[Reifnir]

1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

Use your numbers and Formulas if you want... Im not inclined to believe you....

Yeah, sure, and Pi can be rounded down to 3 without any real consequence. 

[Lutesque]

Just now, Reifnir said:

Yeah, sure, and Pi can be rounded down to 3 without any real consequence. 

Whatever That Means...

2 minutes ago, schilds said:

Basically they are saying that there are no "diminishing returns" to adding more armour.

However, like most things in warframe, when you add to a stat, further additions to that stat decrease in relative value while additions to other stats increase in relative value. That is, roughly speaking (it's not always true), most of the time you get more value from spreading your stats around instead of focusing on just one.

Again... Don't really know what that means....

I get people think Im trolling when I say that but its the truth... I genuinely dont know nor do I find that information useful if the actual in game interaction is not representitive of what people say is how it works...

All I know is I dont use Arcane Guardian for any of my Warframes that can reach 600 Armor on their Own....

 

[schilds]

16 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

nor do I find that information useful if the actual in game interaction is not representitive of what people say is how it works...

Firstly: Many in game interactions do work the way I just said. For example, do you just stack up just one stat on your weapons? Of course not. You put +dmg, +element, +fire rate, +cc, +cd, maybe +sc, typically with no more than two mods of the same type.

Secondly: If you claim that you don't know what it means, then how can you even say the actual in game interaction is not representative? That's like saying "I don't know what you mean when you say the sky is blue, but your information isn't useful because when I go out and look at the actual sky, it isn't blue". Huh? You don't know what we mean, but apparently you do because you know it's wrong ...

[Hiruma-Kai]

1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

Facts and Numbers are all fine...

But Actual Gameplay is more important than whatever gibberish you write.

Here it is Pure Simple.... for one day I slapped the Umbral Mods on Valkyr Prime and did most if The content I usually do....

I noticed no Significant Increase in Survivability. Compared to someone like say... Frost....with just Regular Mods...

So I settle on a Flat value of 600

Use your numbers and Formulas if you want... Im not inclined to believe you....

Nothing wrong with personal testing and experience.  If you find no effective difference for you, then that is a reasonable conclusion for yourself.  I personally do find a difference in my play between 700 and 2747 armor (for example).  If we come to different conclusions due to play experience, it just means we play differently and notice different things.

Out of curiosity, what is your usual content? 

I admit the hardest content I've used Valkyr Prime using all 3 umbral mods was Steel Path survivals,only up to 1 hour and 10 minutes (Ceres, Grinneer) and 55 minutes (Orokin Derelict, Infested).  I can only really take about an hour of survival before I need to get off the computer and do something else.  Got my steel essence drops and left at that point.  Anyways,  the armor has helped me survive knockdown/stagger on some occasions, long enough to let me get back to operator mode and a Vazarin dash.  Given my health was hit the 200-500 range on multiple occasions (mostly due to trying to rely on shield gating and then getting knocked down), it definitely made a difference at that tier of difficulty as by that point, without the armor Valkyr would have been dead.  Admittedly, this only puts the enemies in the level 200+ range.  Of  course even with 2000 armor or more modest armor and a 90% DR ability, at some level its not possible to tank at all (shield gating/invulnerability abilities/prevent enemies from attacking you are your only options).  I haven't looked up the damage scaling formulas for enemies so not exactly sure where that crossover point is.    

Are you typically trying higher level content that requires AoE crowd control and/or spammed frost globe levels of damage mitigation?  Frost's power set certainly has better CC in the form of Avalanche for example.

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

6 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Because Steve said that the Chrysalis appetite will change constantly? If it doesn't want nano spores, 30 million means the same as no nano spores at all.

It's an obvious design choice so those who have been sitting on millions of stockpiled resources accumulated throughout years of playing can't max-out the system right away. If it wants Titanium, guess what you'll have to do if you decided to skip over RJ?

As for the rest of your post, that is only applicable for people who do manage to unlock CW for other frames, which requires for you to feed the resources the chrysalis wants so it can accept a Wukong, and then more resources to apply the ability. And the resources it could want could be different from the resources you used, thus sooner or later you have to go to the other content islands to farm resources unless you happen to be extremely lucky and the chrysalis only wants star chart resources.

That's why I didn't address the rest of your post as the end result is a separate topic from the requirements because you were making it sound as if there was no investment involved with the chrysalis system and you can both throw and use a Wukong right away out of the gate.

Your reason for not addressing it is cut down to "I don't want to address it." 

Again, if CW is his shared ability, then everybody will be using Cloud Walker. Reb conformed when Shy said that sort of circumstance is what they actively avoid when choosing how to balance things.

Enough said. Argue away, it won't change what the outcome is. And if it is CW, then oh well I'm wrong boo hoo, now I'll put it on every frame.

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

5 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

You guys just want me to pop a blood vessel, don't you?

There I am, just carrying on with my day, enjoying my evening with a cider and I get "Hey Monkey, tell us how much the Iron Staff sucks for the 69th time". Now my peace is broken and my day is irrevocably ruined, and I'm holding you personally accountable for it.

  Hide contents

Rip fam. I feel your pain with that dead horse.

[Lutesque]

2 minutes ago, schilds said:

Firstly: Many in game interactions do work the way I just said. For example, do you just stack up just one stat on your weapons? Of course not. You put +dmg, +element, +fire rate, +cc, +cd, maybe +sc, typically with no more than two mods of the same type.

My Concern was with Armor... not Weapons.

3 minutes ago, schilds said:

Secondly: If you claim that you don't know what it means, then how can you even say the actual in game interaction is not representative?

Easy... By comparing the only result that matters... How easily I die.... 

Its not that complicated 😛

4 minutes ago, Hiruma-Kai said:

Out of curiosity, what is your usual content? 

These days... Hanging Out in the Forums... 

I havent been in game since a week after The Steel Path Update. 😛

6 minutes ago, Hiruma-Kai said:

Are you typically trying higher level content that requires AoE crowd control and/or spammed frost globe levels of damage mitigation?  Frost's power set certainly has better CC in the form of Avalanche for example.

Actually i made this Observation about Armor way back a few months after Fortuna dropped.

This was back before I even knew Adaptation existed and was frustrated by how I kept dying no matter how much Armor I slapped on Any Warframe (I didnt have Valkyr Prime at time.... that part came much later)....

I suppose one could say things might have changed to nake Armor better now but The 1000 Armor Buff from Booben's Bastille would suggest otherwise... same goes for the 1500 Armor from Defy....

I barely notice the difference when not using Fibre/Guardian and seems like there actually is no difference when I do use those....

 

[Jarriaga]

9 minutes ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

Your reason for not addressing it is cut down to "I don't want to address it." 

Again, if CW is his shared ability, then everybody will be using Cloud Walker. Reb conformed when Shy said that sort of circumstance is what they actively avoid when choosing how to balance things.

Enough said. Argue away, it won't change what the outcome is. And if it is CW, then oh well I'm wrong boo hoo, now I'll put it on every frame.

That has nothing to do with you implying this is not a content island that doesn't require farming its own standing via its own means. 

[schilds]

Just now, Lutesque said:

My Concern was with Armor... not Weapons.

It was just an example, and you responded to my point about "spreading stats out" with all that stuff about being "not representative" :-P.  Naturally I'm going to think that's what your comment refers to.

In fact, I wasn't even disagreeing with what you said about armour, because my point was that after some amount of armour stacking, you're better off using your mod space for some other stat.

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

That has nothing to do with you implying this is not a content island that doesn't require farming its own standing via its own means. 

And that was never my point and you are trying to change the topic of conversation.

Also, it's not a content island. It's a feature to use up what you already have. No farming, no content island. You're just wrong in every way, and nobody cares about this pointless argument anyway.

[Lutesque]

3 minutes ago, schilds said:

It was just an example, and you responded to my point about "spreading stats out" with all that stuff about being "not representative" :-P.  Naturally I'm going to think that's what your comment refers to.

I guess.... but its easy for me to get Mixed up if you do that...