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Hot take: The reason so many players are frustrated with nerfs and want to be unkillable demigods is because the base gameplay of Warframe isn't fun anymore.


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Just now, SparklyDrew said:

The game isn't inherently easy unless you play in specific ways. Choice elimination is the root of the problem.

Is Warframe a game where the majority of it's playerbase is actively seeking challenging content? I think if it was that it would be a dead game since as you pointed out, it's stupidly easy. I hope I don't play a game where the developers ban players for having constructive discussions? 

Ok i was just  dramatizing that too much...

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2 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

With all due respect, you seem like a very lazy player. Which is kinda what is the problem with the game, the fact that nobody wants to actually earn their rewards.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a lazy player. My question to you is: Is there a problem with that? I play exclusively alone and I've done all mission types thousands of times. I don't have the right to relax and play casually?

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Just now, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

I can’t remember the last time I had fun in a regular mission in Warframe.

Arbitrations, maybe.

Try Steel path Destr on kuva or emissary just for fun.

Edited by bibmobello
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1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

DE only knows three ways to deal with powerful players: Bullet sponge enemies, Invul phases and ability nullification

To be fair, this is also happening in other games

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9 hours ago, SparklyDrew said:

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a lazy player. My question to you is: Is there a problem with that? I play exclusively alone and I've done all mission types thousands of times. I don't have the right to relax and play casually?

Well I do think that games should require more than simply showing up and asking for your rewards in order to actually get loot so yes, I am against a game being that casual. However I must stress that it's more being against players just waltzing through new content for the first time and getting loot for remembering to breathe, rather than someone setting up a farming method they've been using for ages. 

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4 minutes ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

Steel Path Emissary makes me hate this game.

It's really fun, you just need a good build and understanding the mechanics. You just need 5 minutes to 10 minutes(without stupid exploits and even without rivens) solo depending what build you use, i tried almost all of them lol.

Edited by bibmobello
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1 minute ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

I can’t remember the last time I had fun in a regular mission in Warframe.

Arbitrations, maybe.

I think Arbitrations are actually one of the more fun things DE has done recently in terms of making the core gameplay more fun. The biggest reason for me Arbitrations are fun is the exact opposite reason that I think the rest of the new content isn't as fun. Arbitrations actively give you a reason to use off meta weapons or frames and have them (sometimes) be viable. 

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2 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

It's really fun, you just need a good build and understanding the mechanic. You just need 5 minutes to 10 minutes(without stupid exploits and even without rivens) solo depending what build you use, i tried almost all of them lol.

I got one-shot through Wukong with max health and Defy and had to cheese with double damage Gas Ignis on that bloody boss using Celestial Twin to kill him before I ran out of Revives. Not. Fun.

3 minutes ago, SparklyDrew said:

I think Arbitrations are actually one of the more fun things DE has done recently in terms of making the core gameplay more fun. The biggest reason for me Arbitrations are fun is the exact opposite reason that I think the rest of the new content isn't as fun. Arbitrations actively give you a reason to use off meta weapons or frames and have them (sometimes) be viable. 

Arbitrations are mostly about survival and killing, the two things I play Warframe for. But the longer an Arbitration goes on, the more I realize each enemy is worthless and any distinctions are superficial, the less enjoyment I get.

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9 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

I got one-shot through Wukong with max health and Defy and had to cheese with double damage Gas Ignis on that bloody boss using Celestial Twin to kill him before I ran out of Revives. Not. Fun.

Give Valkyr a go mate, chopped him up in about 8 minutes. 

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ry

2 minutes ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

I got one-shot through Wukong with max health and Defy and had to cheese with double damage Gas Ignis on that bloody boss using Celestial Twin to kill him before I ran out of Revives. Not. Fun.

Arbitrations are mostly about survival and killing, the two things I play Warframe for. But the longer an Arbitration goes on, the more I realize each enemy is worthless and any distinctions are superficial, the less enjoyment I get.

i don't use wukong but i tried with revenant, chroma, ivara, inaros and many others and i just have just one forma on many of them .With Revenant and inaros it's pretty easy, with ivara i need a bit more energy and waste 30 seconds lol... 5 minutes with revenant(without exploit) and a venka prime +tysis is the faster but i can do better i think.

Edited by bibmobello
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3 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Well I do think that games should require more than simply showing up and asking for your rewards in order to actually get loot so yes, I am against a game being that casual. However I must stress that it's more being against players just waltzing through new content for the first time and getting loot for remembering to breathe, rather than someone setting up a farming method they've been using for ages. 

In principle I agree with you. I love challenge in some games, but I don't think most people play Warframe for it's moment to moment challenge in combat. Personally, I don't think Warframe is as easy as you say it is (newer content that is) unless you are in a squad that has at the very least a general idea of meta. In pubs I often find myself either soloing, with a host that has awful internet, or with people that are playing even more casually than i do.

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i kind of agree with OP, actually. like no wonder we all want super overpowered nuke abilities/weapons, when letting enemies get anywhere near us results in stunlocks, unfair-feeling oneshots, etc.

i don't know what a solution would be, but it is super duper unfun to take a warframe i enjoy playing and find myself getting mauled because i don't have a nuke ability. "just play with x frame and y weapon!" is not good advice, because i like the warframe i'm playing with, and it would be nice if the gameplay wasn't balanced in such a way as to REQUIRE nuke abilities just to finish levels. 

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1 minute ago, AConfusedBird said:

i kind of agree with OP, actually. like no wonder we all want super overpowered nuke abilities/weapons, when letting enemies get anywhere near us results in stunlocks, unfair-feeling oneshots, etc.

i don't know what a solution would be, but it is super duper unfun to take a warframe i enjoy playing and find myself getting mauled because i don't have a nuke ability. "just play with x frame and y weapon!" is not good advice, because i like the warframe i'm playing with, and it would be nice if the gameplay wasn't balanced in such a way as to REQUIRE nuke abilities just to finish levels. 

This is exactly what I'm getting at. Putting aside how difficult the game is on paper, having that moment where you get one shot that you feel like you couldn't have prevented or seen coming or getting chain stun locked isn't fun. It doesn't happen often enough to be game breaking, but if it happens often on a specific mission or with a specific faction, then you find yourself just lacking the will to play those parts of the game. If over a 5 hour Warframe session it happens once every 7 missions, by the end of that session maybe the reason you stopped playing wasn't because you ran out of things you wanted to do, but because the game had actively stressed you out.

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1 hour ago, Samhel said:

I don't care what people think our reason is to be mad about this, but here's the thing: NERFING GOOD ABILITIES WON'T MAKE USELESS ONES BETTER.

It just pisses us off really badly... Then there's the thing that they said, that they won't nerf abilities just because of the helminth system... AND HERE WE ARE TENNOS. Lies in front of our very eyes. Hundred-thousands of people watched tennocon, what did they think? We won't notice their lies, we don't understand english or what? What?! I was never so dissapointed with gamedevs in my life... Not because of the nerfs, but because of the lies... 

But they didnt nerf any base abilities?

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9 minutes ago, Eyn_Sof said:

But they didnt nerf any base abilities?

The recent nerfs that have people up in a storm is the subsumed abilities will have reduced effectiveness because they would be too strong. I think the abilities are Warcry, Eclipse, Roar, Dispenser, Larva, Defy. I don't think the nerfs are that big of a deal, but it highlights an approach that DE has been taking where they nerf things under the guise of increasing player choice instead of addressing the abilities and frames that are simply irrelevant.

Edited by SparklyDrew
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9 minutes ago, SparklyDrew said:

The recent nerfs that have people up in a storm is the subsumed abilities will have reduced effectiveness because they would be too strong. I think the abilities are Warcry, Eclipse, Roar and three more that elude me atm. I don't think the nerfs are that big of a deal, but it highlights an approach that DE has been taking where they nerf things under the guise of increasing player choice instead of addressing the abilities and frames that are simply irrelevant.

Well to be fair I addressed another person that was screaming something about big lies, etc.

Also i can guess why subsumed roar was nerfed (if you have it same as base, then rhino will only be picked by two diehard rhino fans), same with dispenser and warcry. As you can notice there was no nerf to elemental ward which actually gives a lot more armor than warcry but it wasn't nerfed, why? Because chroma will still be picked.

And a lot of the blame lies with some content creators and their herds which started screaming "Roar OP, Most useful ability evar".

Edited by Eyn_Sof
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Disagree on that being the reason people are dissatisfied with the nerfs.

The nerfs are a mistake from a game design perspective. Not all the nerfs, mind you, Roar and Eclipse can probably justify getting shaved down a little bit. But things like Larva and Dispensary, which are probably middle-of-the-pack in terms of overall ability value, do not deserve nerfs.

The issue is that DE is misidentifying the problem. Again. This happened with the Itzal, which had its blink removed on account of it getting picked all the time. This did not address the actual issue, which is that all Archwings were practically unusable in open world. With everyone and their dogs carrying ground-to-air missiles that oneshot any Archwing, the only thing they're good for is moving between points, and the Itzal was good at that. It was borderline usable, in a pool of Archwings that were, without exception, entirely without value.

This is also the issue with the Helminth system. I'm just going off an example here, but Brozime made a spreadsheet showing all possible combinations of abilities and warframes, and he gave them a ranking. S, A, B, C, or D. Out of the 1806 combos, he gave about 80%, if not more, a D-rank. And I think pretty much anyone will agree to a similar number of D-ranks among the possible combinations. 

ANY D-rank combination is a waste and will not be used. It takes resources and time investment to bring these combinations to life, so anything with a D-rank value is not going to be worth the trouble. When 80% of the options are unusable, the 20% that remain are critically important. Because if those get nerfed down to match the other D-ranks in order to equalise pick rates, then the pick rate that all abilities will average out to is 0%. At which point the Helminth system is dead.

Making something unlikeable does nothing to fix things that already -are- unlikeable. No one is going to consider Shock or Spectrorage just because Larva gets nerfed. 

The stated reason for the nerfs does not align with the actions they are taking. If you wanted to distribute the pick rates more evenly, then you should buff the things that are this far behind the rest.

Roar and Eclipse getting nerfed, I can understand. It's arguable, but that's intricacies of balance, and that's, design-wise, a defensible action. But the only way you are going to make Dispensary less likely to be picked is by offering up meaningful competition. And Shock, in its current state, definitely ain't it.

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2 hours ago, SparklyDrew said:

Obviously I can only speak for myself here, 

 

2 hours ago, SparklyDrew said:

Hot take: The reason so many players are frustrated with nerfs and want to be unkillable demigods is because the base gameplay of Warframe isn't fun anymore.

 

There seems to be a significant disconnect between the two, don't you think? 

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2 hours ago, OniDax said:

Don't you know? It WILL make the useless abilities better, because more people will use them now that the formerly good abilities are nerfed down to the level of the useless abilities. That makes them better, you see. Oh, and they aren't useless. They're good abilities. They're only useless when there are better abilities. See, it's logical. It makes soooooo much sense. If you don't agree, you're a troll, or something.

Roar even nerfed is still better than Rage, Decoy, Dessication, Molt, Firewalker, Eclipse, Fire Blast or almost half of the warframe abilities not only in the subsuming list but from all warframe abilities...

By useless I mean either really really weak dmg dealing abilities or things that literally would have no use other than for draining your energy... 

Nobody will use those abilities even if they nerfed the obvious choices. Technically roar gives you dmg / ability strength buff and that is why it's so good. Not because of the numbers but because of what it actually does. Changing the numbers won't stop people from using it. Useless abilities are useless no matter what you do to others. Even if these good abilities now going to run with low numbers they are still doing more then the ones we call useless, so the problem is not solved at all. They just triggered everyone with it...

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2 hours ago, SparklyDrew said:

Obviously I can only speak for myself here, but since the launch of Fortuna I have found myself increasingly irritated by the enemies and missions in Warframe. Newer enemies tend to have inconsistent reactions to CC such as Stasis+Cataclysm, inflict too much CC of their own, and are accurate and damaging to a fault. I don't want to play the game when in the Orb Vallis i get one shot as Mesa even with a 95% damage reduction shield after being knocked down and slowed and nullified and magnetic'd by a horde of enemies that leap around like mad. In Scarlet Spear, Limbo's time stop works against all the sentients, until they just decide to ignore it randomly and one shot you through quick thinking. Forget strong warframes or weapons restricting choice, the newer missions and enemies are what's restricting choice. When you aren't having fun playing a mission but you still want to finish it because at the end of the day Warframe is a collectathon, the natural reaction is to spend as little time interacting with the unfun aspects as possible. 

It really feels like DE doesn't understand the majority of the playerbase (or at least what I think is the majority of the playerbase). When the Steel Path was first teased at in an interview, what we expected was a hard mode for the star chart, and an appropriate reward to do these missions instead of the base star chart missions. As it stands right now, the only reason to play the Steel Path is for completion. Once a player has finished the Steel Path, there is no reason to do any mission at +100 level because the rewards aren't there at all. When DE revealed Railjack, i was confused. It's completely unrelated to the rest of the game, the gameplay loop is the exact opposite of the rest of the game and there's no way it could've been polished on launch. If Warframe was a spaceship team based combat game I would've never played it in the first place, so why would I want to play railjack? Most veterans don't play the game for the gameplay anymore, if they did, they would go through each mission slowly shooting each enemy, which is what it feels like DE wants to reduce us to doing.

By making enemies that counter warframe abilities and slowing down the pace of the game as a result, it just feels like there isn't a cohesive direction that DE wants to bring the game in anymore. 

I still play warframe but honestly the only fun I have is getting new frames and weapons. Every new syndicate I have to slowly rank up in or daily standing cap I have to deal with or isolated bubbles with new resources to farm just eats away at the reason I play the game and erodes my fun.

Also Railjack was a massive girthy middle finger to solo players, as is the rest of the game and I'm sick of that.

The old gameplay of warframe is still enjoyably, unless you are dumb enough to do some meta crap and whine how it's different when it isn't. Mostly the new additions are all worse than the last and add nothing good to the game. Will DE stop? Sadly that is unlikely. We will see when deimos is here. If it's the same as the two other crappy open worlds, then abandon all hope.

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