Necraloid "Void Clock" and the origin of the Man in the Wall and Reliquary Drive from Railjack (Major quest spoilers)

[Sarge_Tarmus]

Some of you might not be aware of that. but in the Necraloid (Necramech Syndicate) headquarters you can find stairs leading to the Void clock behind Loid. The clock features Vitruvian recordings of Albrecht Entrati, the first void scientist and the creator of Requiems. The last two recordings. that require maxed standing with both Entrati and Necraloid contain something interesting. For the first one, I'm not talking about what Albrecht said, but about the image of Reliquary Drive from Railjack with the (in)famous finger within. The last recording mentions, god-like creatures, possibly "inspired" by Warhammer's gods and/or Lovecraftian mythology. According to Albrecht, they're so powerful, that they are possibly capable of manipulating the universe itself ("their heralds are the falling stars" - another Lovecraft reference?), but aren't really interested with smaller affairs of Origin System. Or are they?

This is where the Man in the Wall comes in: During his experiments mentioned in the earlier recordings, Entrati managed to open a Void portal, which he referred to as "The Wall Between Worlds". There, he met his own reflection, or rather, a different being that assumed Albrecht's shape and appearance, just like it can do with us, the Tenno after the completion of Chains of Harrow quest. That is not the only clue. Albrecht Entrati himself named him "Man Trapped in the Wall". Thanks to this encounter, the entity provided the Orokin with some digits and equations that basically jumpstarted the research and the birth of Void technology, which, as Albrecht himself mentioned, ultimately led to the Zahriman Ten-Zero Incident. I think it was clear, that the Tenno got their powers by the influence of Man in the Wall ("Something's out there, kiddo. Watching us."), but the mentioning the incident in the Void Clock recordings might be another proof. The fact that the Man in the Wall wrote the equations while also being able to make them readable for the Orokin, means that he understands more than anyone could possibly know about the Void, which leads me to conclusion, that he was born from it and he's one of the god-like entities himself. Also, what Albrech said about the existence of such beings is probably based on his encounter with the MitW.

Another matter, the Reliquary Drive - a device that could be a "Void Fridge", that contains a giant finger. Of all the known members of the cast, probably only the Man in the Wall knows what this thing is. When you're doing the Rising Tide quest and insert the void key into the Reliquary, MitB appears and watches you, which means he's clearly interested in what you're doing. It's like he was the one who gave the finger to the Orokin in the first place.

But what is the finger itself? Reliquaries are meant to contain relics. And the relics are either:

1. Primitive organisms that managed to survive the trial of time and live to this day. For Example: Latimeria fish and everything on Madagascar.

2. In medieval culture, relics are remains (a skull, a tooth or even ashes) or artifacts associated with people who achieved saintdom. For example, the arm of Saint Adalbert, patron of Poland or a sliver from the Jesus Christ's cross.

So the Reliquary Drive's name should confirm, that it contains remains of someone, namely, a finger. A finger powerful enough to make Railjack able to travel through the Void. Also, the fact that Cephalon Cy is unable to comprehend it with logic and reason, implies that we're dealing with something eldritch. My theory is that this finger used to belong to a powerful void entity and its presence in the Reliquary acts like a protection from the Void's influence, so the ship doesn't need a Solar Rail and can traverse another dimension on its own.

What if Duviri Paradox is going to be about eldritch entities that manipulate the universe?

"bUt HeY, iT's JuSt A tHeOrY. a GaMe ThEoRy."

 

[(PSN)psycofang]

22 minutes ago, Sarge_Tarmus said:

"their heralds are the falling stars" - another Lovecraft reference?

The only one that could reference this specific thing is either

 

-Azazoth who shifts and alters reality in its sleep simply by moving. "Ode to the fallen red star, the cosmos but infinitesimal to its will"

Or Yog-Sothoth another brokenly op Lovecraftian who birthed the Outer Gods aka the Black Star(s)

 

Rather interesting that was put in there honestly.

 

The MitW could also be pulling lovecraft trick, some Eldritch Gods purposefully allow or even encourage the use of their tools and equations because by doing so allows them to observe your universe which in turns spreads their influence which starts to warp reality to their preferences, Nyarlathotep is guilty of this.

 

The infested also share similarities to an elder god called Shub (you can't type the rest of the name)

 

 

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

59 minutes ago, Sarge_Tarmus said:

Another matter, the Reliquary Drive - a device that could be a "Void Fridge", that contains a giant finger. Of all the known members of the cast, probably only the Man in the Wall knows what this thing is. When you're doing the Rising Tide quest and insert the void key into the Reliquary, MitB appears and watches you, which means he's clearly interested in what you're doing. It's like he was the one who gave the finger to the Orokin in the first place.

More than that. Your operator-mirror-image, I believe, waves at you with one finger held down.

In the Albrecht entries, he exits the Void-space with the 'presence' reaching after him with 'grasping fingers' - causing the hasty blood-written CLOSE IT message to prevent those fingers pulling him back, or more than just fingers to follow him out, either way.

We know that the space between the Void and the Prime Plane is a supernaturally fine 'edge', from the entry where the Bell was rent and shattered just grazing the portal's edge.
And after that CLOSE IT entry, we see the image of the Reliquary Drive.
It seems to be, quite literally, a finger of the Void Being, the Man in the Wall himself, severed by the Void tear being closed while it was reaching out. Obviously, having every Railjack of every player Tenno using a unique finger is... not very likely, so we can consider this another one of those player-centric isolations, like being the only Tenno to drop Lua out from Voidspace and personally pick themselves up.

 

There could be a few more fingers out there doing whatever it exactly is they do for other mechanisms (one was probably on the Zariman itself, for example), but I suspect that our personal Railjack's considered a bit unique in that it's got the real deal original Reliquary Drive with one of those fingers physically installed. Researching other finger(s) probably led to the Heart being created for use as a more 'general purpose' tap for the Void-energies to power the bulk of Orokin society's needs - travel without needing a literal preserved piece of a Void-entity, Warframes which we know existed and functioned abilities and all without Operators, etc.

[Galuf]

The operator saga started years ago and never ended, we have lotus bot since quite a few years now :). Imho the story will never end, nor go to place we anticipated. The lore in the final room is confusing as hell. I won't hype myself, DE is the king of bamboozling us with lore that is cryptic even for them I'm pretty sure.

[(XBOX)Ancient Mutt]

If this theory includes the possibility of a multiverse, then having one finger show up at different points in space AND time makes it possible for one object to be in many places at the same time... it just might have varying states of age and condition between each showing. If it has a means of protecting and transporting itself to a safe location, should a railjack be destroyed, even better. 

The void, to me, simply seems to be the same 'subspace' used in Star Trek, a plane of existence between each universe. Iirc, one minute and one mile travel in subspace can equal lightyears of travel in the blink of an eye. A year spent in subspace equals ten years in our plane. Something like that anyway.

Pseudo science is fun.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

I just thought there was the one finger in the Void or something, and the Reliquary Drive is just a "window" to the finger. Every Reliquary Drive in the system is looking through a  "window" to the same finger, or the same finger is in every Drive.

Or its just some magic superposition quantum mechanic bull, same way the Multishot mods work. Just "duplicate" the thing so can be in multiple different places simultaneously 

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, Sarge_Tarmus said:

("their heralds are the falling stars" - another Lovecraft reference?)

I believe this is in reference to the Tenno themselves, and that whole first stanza was a then-prophetic  fortelling of the Tenno.

My reasoning is the name given to us by the Entrati - Ayatan. This, combined with this one bit of very well-hidden lore (that the Duviri believe in 'nominative determinism) and that we are named as such because we are a "little star that fell from the heavens". Since the Entrati also put great importance in their names having meaning, it's likely that's an Orokin thing. In which case, the Entrati seem to have, aware of it or not, sealed our fate as the unwitting heralds of the Man in the Wall.

16 minutes ago, (XB1)Primus Patronum said:

The void, to me, simply seems to be the same 'subspace' used in Star Trek, a plane of existence between each universe. Iirc, one minute and one mile travel in subspace can equal lightyears of travel in the blink of an eye. A year spent in subspace equals ten years in our plane. Something like that anyway.

Pseudo science is fun.

I agree with the only exception being it seems more like "A year spent in the void could be anything in the real plane". Given how much infrastructure seems involved with void travel and set, specific navigational aides (for example, strict A-B portals, compasses for anything immersed in the void or space rails) I generally took it that the void is somewhat random and ephemeral. There's no clear way of knowing what's going to happen when you go in unless you take something from real-space with you that somehow 'forces' the void to behave. Which is both what makes it useful (since, in theory, there's no real limit on what you can make the void do since it has no conventional laws of physics) but also dangerous, since if  you lose that anchor? There's no telling WHAT will happen to you.

Hence why the Tenno need 'focus' to control their abilities. If they're not extremely specific about what they want and how they do it then they can't control what's going to come out of them. They're like Wild Magic sorcerers from DnD 5E but with none of the upsides and all of the pain.

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

On 2020-09-12 at 6:41 AM, Sarge_Tarmus said:

Some of you might not be aware of that. but in the Necraloid (Necramech Syndicate) headquarters you can find stairs leading to the Void clock behind Loid. The clock features Vitruvian recordings of Albrecht Entrati, the first void scientist and the creator of Requiems. The last two recordings. that require maxed standing with both Entrati and Necraloid contain something interesting. For the first one, I'm not talking about what Albrecht said, but about the image of Reliquary Drive from Railjack with the (in)famous finger within. The last recording mentions, god-like creatures, possibly "inspired" by Warhammer's gods and/or Lovecraftian mythology. According to Albrecht, they're so powerful, that they are possibly capable of manipulating the universe itself ("their heralds are the falling stars" - another Lovecraft reference?), but aren't really interested with smaller affairs of Origin System. Or are they?

This is where the Man in the Wall comes in: During his experiments mentioned in the earlier recordings, Entrati managed to open a Void portal, which he referred to as "The Wall Between Worlds". There, he met his own reflection, or rather, a different being that assumed Albrecht's shape and appearance, just like it can do with us, the Tenno after the completion of Chains of Harrow quest. That is not the only clue. Albrecht Entrati himself named him "Man Trapped in the Wall". Thanks to this encounter, the entity provided the Orokin with some digits and equations that basically jumpstarted the research and the birth of Void technology, which, as Albrecht himself mentioned, ultimately led to the Zahriman Ten-Zero Incident. I think it was clear, that the Tenno got their powers by the influence of Man in the Wall ("Something's out there, kiddo. Watching us."), but the mentioning the incident in the Void Clock recordings might be another proof. The fact that the Man in the Wall wrote the equations while also being able to make them readable for the Orokin, means that he understands more than anyone could possibly know about the Void, which leads me to conclusion, that he was born from it and he's one of the god-like entities himself. Also, what Albrech said about the existence of such beings is probably based on his encounter with the MitW.

Another matter, the Reliquary Drive - a device that could be a "Void Fridge", that contains a giant finger. Of all the known members of the cast, probably only the Man in the Wall knows what this thing is. When you're doing the Rising Tide quest and insert the void key into the Reliquary, MitB appears and watches you, which means he's clearly interested in what you're doing. It's like he was the one who gave the finger to the Orokin in the first place.

But what is the finger itself? Reliquaries are meant to contain relics. And the relics are either:

1. Primitive organisms that managed to survive the trial of time and live to this day. For Example: Latimeria fish and everything on Madagascar.

2. In medieval culture, relics are remains (a skull, a tooth or even ashes) or artifacts associated with people who achieved saintdom. For example, the arm of Saint Adalbert, patron of Poland or a sliver from the Jesus Christ's cross.

So the Reliquary Drive's name should confirm, that it contains remains of someone, namely, a finger. A finger powerful enough to make Railjack able to travel through the Void. Also, the fact that Cephalon Cy is unable to comprehend it with logic and reason, implies that we're dealing with something eldritch. My theory is that this finger used to belong to a powerful void entity and its presence in the Reliquary acts like a protection from the Void's influence, so the ship doesn't need a Solar Rail and can traverse another dimension on its own.

What if Duviri Paradox is going to be about eldritch entities that manipulate the universe?

"bUt HeY, iT's JuSt A tHeOrY. a GaMe ThEoRy."

 

Spoialers 

 

At the the end of the entrati syndacet you are named ayatan also known as ayatan star and the man in the wall is a projection of the VOID itself or the god like entaty and once rell is free the entaty laches onto the nerest fallen star to become its new herald a herald can be one of two things a messanger or a person that is a sighn of a magor event to come 

If you look cloasly to the man in the wall you can notice it is waveing at you with one finger down after you get your railjack and what powers the railjack a giant finger of a god like entaty also known as the man in the wall 

[(PSN)Unstar]

I'm hoping I can find a way to say this without coming across as a pedantic gatekeeper, but if we want to do this kind of lore analysis, it would be very wise to bring to the table the actual text of our sources and not misremembered versions of said sources.  I appreciate the exploration, apologies for the corrections in advance.

On 2020-09-12 at 4:41 AM, Sarge_Tarmus said:

"their heralds are the falling stars"

The above is incorrect, and in this thread there are already people exploring the ideas of what falling stars might mean.  There are no falling stars in the Requiem.  The actual quote is "Its heralds are the stars it fells".  Let's note a few things:

• "Its" is singular.  This poem is indeed talking about something Lovecraftian, but it is talking about one thing, not a group of things.  This entity is singular.
• There are no "falling stars".  Falling stars are meteorites; that's not what this is talking about.  These are stars (like our sun) being destroyed.

So this part of the poem is saying, "We don't know much about this thing, but we can presume it's there because literal stars are being destroyed."

On 2020-09-12 at 4:41 AM, Sarge_Tarmus said:

Thanks to this encounter, the entity provided the Orokin with some digits and equations that basically jumpstarted the research and the birth of Void technology, which, as Albrecht himself mentioned, ultimately led to the Zahriman Ten-Zero Incident.

It sounds like you may be misinterpreting Albrecht's story.  The Man in the Wall did not voluntarily provide anything.  I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of him providing equations, because there's nothing about that in Albrecht's tale.  Here are some quotes from the relevant parts of the story:

"But I sensed the other there, at the wall's breach behind me, reaching still."  And then later:  "The pale reaching digits severed on the floor... studied with reverence, with greed."

The "digits" he is talking about are not numbers related to equations; they are fingers.  He describes the Man in the Wall's hand reaching towards him, which is why he demanded that the others "CLOSE IT", referring to the door to the Void.  When they did, some of this entity's fingers were presumably through the portal, and closing it severed them.  That's why there's a giant finger in your Railjack (and in the image where they talk about "digits").

In closing, Warframe's lore has been told over close to a decade now in short bursts, always preferring to elude and gesture towards ideas and events rather than to directly tell.  So it's perfectly reasonable to misremembe or be lead astray.  But that's exactly why it's important to keep referencing the literal text, because otherwise it's too easy to stray into twisted versions of ideas or what somebody said on the internet.  The truth is out there, we just have to follow it and not get lost along the way. :)

 

 

[Loza03]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

The "digits" he is talking about are not numbers related to equations; they are fingers.  He describes the Man in the Wall's hand reaching towards him, which is why he demanded that the others "CLOSE IT", referring to the door to the Void.  When they did, some of this entity's fingers were presumably through the portal, and closing it severed them.  That's why there's a giant finger in your Railjack (and in the image where they talk about "digits").

There's one questionable detail.  I don't think that it's the same digits powering Railjacks.

Remember, during the final step of Rising Tides, when you get the Void Key that you put into the Reliquary drive, there's the sound of something - most likely the finger - bumping around and entering.

 

Whilst the original 'gift' was almost certainly a result of the closed portal, it seems the Man has warmed up to the idea of freely gifting body parts to the material realm, likely for his - or rather, it's - own designs.

[(PSN)Unstar]

5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

There's one questionable detail.  I don't think that it's the same digits powering Railjacks.

I don't quite follow you.  Why would you not think it's the same finger?  There's a picture of a finger inside a Reliquary Drive on the exact part of the story where it says "The pale reaching digits severed on the floor... studied with reverence, with greed."  It's clearly intended that the player make a connection between these fingers and the one in the Railjack, and thus Occam's Razor suggests that the finger in your Railjack is one of the "digits" from this story.  Is there evidence for this theory?

[Loza03]

Just now, (PS4)Unstar said:

I don't quite follow you.  Why would you not think it's the same finger?  There's a picture of a finger inside a Reliquary Drive on the exact part of the story where it says "The pale reaching digits severed on the floor... studied with reverence, with greed."  It's clearly intended that the player make a connection between these fingers and the one in the Railjack, and thus Occam's Razor suggests that the finger in your Railjack is one of the "digits" from this story.  Is there evidence for this theory?

Like I said, something pushes it into the Reliquary drive from the inside.

We're not putting some ancient digit in, nor was it already in there (I know it was from a technical perspective but I don't think that was intentional). Something else puts it in there once we put the key in.

That's what makes me think that the digit isn't the same one. Also the fact that the heart appears to be a literal giant heart wrapped in tech makes me think that, somehow, the Man was 'donating' other parts willingly after that.

[0_The_F00l]

Its much simpler than that , The reliquary is just the point where the being touches the here and now from the not here and never.

Just so that mortals can grasp it , it looks like a finger, a finger performs few functions in normal lives, to point (Navigate) , to poke (and tear small wormholes) , to push (to enable movement of) small objects and to accuse.

 

 

Guess we will find out what the accusation is in a later when eh kiddo :D ?

 

[CriticalFumble]

15 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

That's what makes me think that the digit isn't the same one. Also the fact that the heart appears to be a literal giant heart wrapped in tech makes me think that, somehow, the Man was 'donating' other parts willingly after that.

The Orokin had a weird obsession with organic designs - note Orokin Fortuna and Deimos fish - which might explain the heart just as well.  Its also worth noting how many of the "infested" lights around the area look a lot like the finger-pods, making it seem that there were a metric ton of those things laying around. 

It's also possible that its some kind of wacky impression based magic.  While running, he imagined the being in the Void trying to catch him, manifesting the hands.  The severed fingers from the incident retained some Void connection, and when they tried to make more Void devices they became fingers because the object that connects to the Void is the idea of the fingers. 

[(PSN)Unstar]

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Like I said, something pushes it into the Reliquary drive from the inside.

We're not putting some ancient digit in, nor was it already in there (I know it was from a technical perspective but I don't think that was intentional). Something else puts it in there once we put the key in.

That's what makes me think that the digit isn't the same one. Also the fact that the heart appears to be a literal giant heart wrapped in tech makes me think that, somehow, the Man was 'donating' other parts willingly after that.

I can only say that I do not have this interpretation of what happened.  It seemed to me that when the Reliquary Drive was "activated" that the finger became "visible" (you don't see it, then you do) and in some capacity "active" (thumping sounds, shaking visuals, and only a finger inside to presumably act as their source).  And as others have mentioned, the Man in the Wall's "fingerless" motion when the Reliquary Drive is activated suggests to me that he's implying "this is the finger I'm missing".

But to your theory that the Man in the Wall became some sort of benevolent benefactor of humanity, every part of any Warframe story that mentions the Man in the Wall mentions him as being perceived as an antagonistic force to be feared and restrained; conversely, there are no references to him being any kind of ally or providing any amount of help.  Albrecht himself chose to end his immortal life due to the fear that the Man in the Wall might somehow have left the Void, and said that nobody else ever spoke of such an entity; this is important because the Entrati were at the heart (lol) of Void research; it is incredibly unlikely that The Man in the Wall could be a participant in this process without the Entrati knowing.  In addition, Rell dedicated his entire life to binding the Man in the Wall.  You have an interesting theory, but it's one that is not supported by the evidence we have access to and in fact is contradicted by it.

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

I can only say that I do not have this interpretation of what happened.  It seemed to me that when the Reliquary Drive was "activated" that the finger became "visible" (you don't see it, then you do) and in some capacity "active" (thumping sounds, shaking visuals, and only a finger inside to presumably act as their source).  And as others have mentioned, the Man in the Wall's "fingerless" motion when the Reliquary Drive is activated suggests to me that he's implying "this is the finger I'm missing".

Folding the finger down, however, means they still have it in that manifestation.

There's no reason to believe that whatever the man is, it conforms to human physiology. Which means it could potentially have an uncountable number of fingers, hands or other assorted bodily parts. It's also likely that they have a new body for each avatar created. In which case, there's no reason why it couldn't donate more body parts.

As for sliding in, consider this:

It moves directly forwards out of the void fog, bounces off the glass, shifts around, and then lies still. Since it wasn't visible there before, that motion seems to indicate that it was shoved into place and the glass stopped it moving.

 

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

But to your theory that the Man in the Wall became some sort of benevolent benefactor of humanity, every part of any Warframe story that mentions the Man in the Wall mentions him as being perceived as an antagonistic force to be feared and restrained; conversely, there are no references to him being any kind of ally or providing any amount of help.  Albrecht himself chose to end his immortal life due to the fear that the Man in the Wall might somehow have left the Void, and said that nobody else ever spoke of such an entity; this is important because the Entrati were at the heart (lol) of Void research; it is incredibly unlikely that The Man in the Wall could be a participant in this process without the Entrati knowing.  In addition, Rell dedicated his entire life to binding the Man in the Wall.  You have an interesting theory, but it's one that is not supported by the evidence we have access to and in fact is contradicted by it.

Who said anything about benevolent?

Just because I think it's giving them of its own free will does not mean I don't think it has its own reasons for doing so that have absolutely nothing to do with the interests of humanity.

[(PSN)Unstar]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Who said anything about benevolent?

I'm just doing my best to interpret your suggestion that parts were being "donated willingly".  Regardless, the idea that people are just finding giant fingers and hearts through any means is not supported by any evidence in the text, with the obvious exception of the fingers mentioned in Albrecht's story.

I watched the video, and given that we're dealing with the Void here, I really can't fault any hypothesis about whether the finger was already there, or was summoned, or was both there and not there at the exact same time, etc.  The Void doesn't have to make sense, so we'll probably never know the precise answer.

But regardless of the answer to how that finger got in that casing, I don't see a reason for it to be a different finger.  We have fingers in one part of the story, then we have this part of the story with a finger, and we have supporting artwork and gesticulations that link them together.  Occam's Razor suggests that we stop there, because that is the simplest explanation that adequately explains the situation without introducing unnecessary pieces.  We can explain everything that is happening without adding more fingers, and that's a very good reason not to.

 

[Loza03]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

I'm just doing my best to interpret your suggestion that parts were being "donated willingly".  Regardless, the idea that people are just finding giant fingers and hearts through any means is not supported by any evidence in the text, with the obvious exception of the fingers mentioned in Albrecht's story.

I watched the video, and given that we're dealing with the Void here, I really can't fault any hypothesis about whether the finger was already there, or was summoned, or was both there and not there at the exact same time, etc.  The Void doesn't have to make sense, so we'll probably never know the precise answer.

But regardless of the answer to how that finger got in that casing, I don't see a reason for it to be a different finger.  We have fingers in one part of the story, then we have this part of the story with a finger, and we have supporting artwork and gesticulations that link them together.  Occam's Razor suggests that we stop there, because that is the simplest explanation that adequately explains the situation without introducing unnecessary pieces.  We can explain everything that is happening without adding more fingers, and that's a very good reason not to.

 

Our Railjack was created from salvage by six different Railjacks strewn across six different planets. Last time I checked, human hands have five digits, counting the thumb.

Since we can reasonably conclude that the Reliquary drive is what allows the 'Rail' part of the Railjack to work (using void energy to fire a small-scale solar rail) - where did the sixth finger come from? And why would the Orokin waste these incredibly precious items on disposable spacecraft?

[(PSN)robotwars7]

everyone in this thread is going all big-brain mode trying to learn about the void, and I only have one question:

Spoiler

where do I shoot it?

 

[(PSN)Unstar]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Our Railjack was created from salvage by six different Railjacks strewn across six different planets. Last time I checked, human hands have five digits, counting the thumb.

Since we can reasonably conclude that the Reliquary drive is what allows the 'Rail' part of the Railjack to work (using void energy to fire a small-scale solar rail) - where did the sixth finger come from?

Honestly, that's a nice observation and a fair question.  Here are a handful of unrelated off-the-cuff half-theories that I would lean towards before guessing that the Man in the Wall was intentionally providing more body parts:

• Maybe the initial incident resulted in more than 5 fingers, since Albrecht Entrati presumably had two hands, both of which could have been used for reaching.
• Maybe any number of Railjacks can use the same finger as a power source.  Since a Void-based object may not interact with our physical reality in traditional ways, it's possible that the finger could actually exist in multiple spaces at once, or that the Void could allow disparate locations in space to connect to it, so that the finger only exists in one place but that multiple locations connect to it.  Or other Void things that sound like nonsense, but are the mind-breaking nature of the Void.  DE can pretty much explain anything by just saying "The Void" if they want to, since if they ever define exactly how it works it would no longer be Lovecraftian.  It's a great out, albeit one that may leave some unsatisfied tastes now and again.
• Maybe other Railjacks are powered by other relics brought back from the Void.
• (Meta) That the writers made an oopsie and forgot to take into account the relationship between these specific aspects of Empyrean and The Heart of Deimos.

Admittedly, these are all just things that are possible, and not anything conclusive, because the game doesn't address it yet, and may never.  But in my own opinion, these all seem more likely than the Man in the Wall voluntarily leaving additional body parts for the Entrati to find; that would be a much different perspective on the Man in the Wall than the narrative has ever shown us so far.

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

And why would the Orokin waste these incredibly precious items on disposable spacecraft?

Also a good question, but I think I have a better answer for it.  Quite simply, they were fighting a war against an enemy that they struggled to combat, and they were desperate.  Alternatively, possible Void-explanations like "one finger can power all the ships" might make this point moot.  But it's still a good question to ask!

 

[Loza03]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

Maybe the initial incident resulted in more than 5 fingers, since Albrecht Entrati presumably had two hands, both of which could have been used for reaching.

Even being generous, and assuming that each individual part of a finger (i.e. between joints) can be used independently, and that they were cut off at the knuckle where the fingers meet the hands, which would also take the tip of the thumb, that's at most 26 relics across both hands. Pretty valuable all told, especially considering that we're told the current Railjacks are sigma series, implying there were eighteen series of these ships designed. 

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

Maybe any number of Railjacks can use the same finger as a power source.  Since a Void-based object may not interact with our physical reality in traditional ways, it's possible that the finger could actually exist in multiple spaces at once, or that the Void could allow disparate locations in space to connect to it, so that the finger only exists in one place but that multiple locations connect to it.  Or other Void things that sound like nonsense, but are the mind-breaking nature of the Void.  DE can pretty much explain anything by just saying "The Void" if they want to, since if they ever define exactly how it works it would no longer be Lovecraftian.  It's a great out, albeit one that may leave some unsatisfied tastes now and again.

This is true, the void does seem to give the middle finger (heh) to physical laws.

Still, that'd call into question the need for the Heart (since then the fingers alone could power everything by having a finger reactor wherever you need void juju) in a way that there being other parts in existence, although rare still allows for - the Heart provides the main power source whilst other parts are used when absolutely necessary.

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

Maybe other Railjacks are powered by other relics brought back from the Void.

Also possible, and maybe indeed likely although we don't really know what other relics there could be. 

Having said that, it's just as reasonable to assume Wally is letting them be found as well. We can assume that the void belongs to it and is shaped by its will, so that might be a moot point whether it's veins of blood or veins of ore. In fact, it's entirely possible that biological and non-biological artifacts recovered are functionally identical, it only mimicking the form of the outside world from the same void... stuff.

34 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

Also a good question, but I think I have a better answer for it.  Quite simply, they were fighting a war against an enemy that they struggled to combat, and they were desperate.  Alternatively, possible Void-explanations like "one finger can power all the ships" might make this point moot.  But it's still a good question to ask!

As I said, we pilot a 'sigma' series Railjack which indicates it's the eighteenth vessel series of its kind, which indicates that other series were successful and then outmoded. Presumably, if the Orokin were that desperate, the first viable design would have been kicked out the door. Similar to the Necramechs, which are clearly powerful enough to take on a Sentient, but lack any of the nuance that a long-term war would require. They work in open battlefields, and maybe cathedralic industrial complexes and are noticeably slower than some infantry troops, so their ability to combat the infinitely-adaptable, flying and nimble sentients in any real capacity is highly limited compared to Warframes.

[(PSN)Unstar]

20 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

We can assume that the void belongs to it and is shaped by its will, so that might be a moot point whether it's veins of blood or veins of ore.

I think we've both expressed our views on the fingers and are probably at an impasse, though I appreciate your trading ideas with me.  But I did want to comment on this, because I have a very different view on this!

I think the Man in the Wall is merely a denizen of the Void, not its master.  I believe there is more within.  For example, there are the "Void worms" from the Empyrean trailer (I believe Tenno have also seen them in the game while playing Railjack, though I haven't myself).  But more importantly, there's one interesting phrase from the Man in the Wall.  I couldn't find the exact quote, but I believe it is:

"There's something out there, Kiddo, watching us."

I think that he may be talking about whatever cosmic horror Albrecht's Requiem poems refer to:

"From brooding gulfs are we beheld that which bears no name."

They have yet to elaborate on all of this for now, so it's a tentative theory with lots of wiggle room.  But the two pieces seem to fit together.

[Loza03]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

I think we've both expressed our views on the fingers and are probably at an impasse, though I appreciate your trading ideas with me.  But I did want to comment on this, because I have a very different view on this!

I think the Man in the Wall is merely a denizen of the Void, not its master.  I believe there is more within.  For example, there are the "Void worms" from the Empyrean trailer (I believe Tenno have also seen them in the game while playing Railjack, though I haven't myself).  But more importantly, there's one interesting phrase from the Man in the Wall.  I couldn't find the exact quote, but I believe it is:

"There's something out there, Kiddo, watching us."

I think that he may be talking about whatever cosmic horror Albrecht's Requiem poems refer to:

"From brooding gulfs are we beheld that which bears no name."

They have yet to elaborate on all of this for now, so it's a tentative theory with lots of wiggle room.  But the two pieces seem to fit together.

My personal take is that the Man isn't necessarily as unified as a singular entity - rather, they manifest based on who they're reflecting.

We see this in Chains of Harrow. The blood messages appear to be written by the man, largely because they speak about Rell in third-person - "you cast him out". But they refer to the man as evil - "what is evil but indifference?" When you consider Rell had self-esteem issues, however, this begins to make sense. He's mirroring the aspects about Rell that Rell himself didn't like or want to accept. In essence - he became Rell's Jungian Shadow. 

When channeling us, he's playful and sadistic. And what's one character trait we can be fairly sure all player Tenno share? That they enjoy killing hordes of enemies, because they're us, and we enjoy killing hordes of enemies. Even with Albrecht, we know that when he's making that trip, he's explicitly not doing it for curiosity's sake, or to claim a new world but for revenge against those who had wronged him - so the Man suddenly getting an itch to try leave its reality and try enter our world makes sense, because that's what Albrecht was denying in the moments when he met the man, so that's what Wally was making use of.

 

The void seems to invert aspects of our reality. You don't move, you bring your destination to you. The sky is bright and the stars are dark. The order and rigidity of the laws of physics, marred only by tiny, random events are matched with raw chaos with tiny strings of reason. And instead of a multitude of individuals, there is the one that is all, the Man in the Wall.

[(PSN)Unstar]

17 hours ago, Loza03 said:

My personal take is that the Man isn't necessarily as unified as a singular entity - rather, they manifest based on who they're reflecting.

We see this in Chains of Harrow. The blood messages appear to be written by the man, largely because they speak about Rell in third-person - "you cast him out". But they refer to the man as evil - "what is evil but indifference?" When you consider Rell had self-esteem issues, however, this begins to make sense. He's mirroring the aspects about Rell that Rell himself didn't like or want to accept. In essence - he became Rell's Jungian Shadow.

I kind of agree, kind of disagree.  I think it's pretty clear that he manifests as who he's interacting with (with the lone exception of Rell, whom he had basically taken over).  But I don't think that makes him not a singular entity.  I would just think of him like a cross between a shape-shifter and a living mirror...just one with a mind of their own.

I've reflected on the meaning of "WHAT IS EVIL BUT INDIFFERENCE?" for awhile, and I've recently come away with a reading of all of the blood messages that keeps them in alignment.  They are a one-sided conversation from the Man in the Wall to the Operator.  Their common purpose is to drive the Operator towards the event that will free the Man in the Wall.  The Man in the Wall is manipulating the Operator, and probably also having a bit of fun.

What I personally feel is clear (though only after the fact) is that the blood message "WHAT IS EVIL BUT INDIFFERENCE?" is not referring to the Man in the Wall.  It is talking about you, the Operator (as well as the other Tenno and Margulis).  The previous blood messages that are not instructional all talk about what you (or others) did to Rell:

"YOU CAST HIM OUT" "HE SUFFERS WHILE YOU DREAM" "BLINDED SHE CAST HIM OUT"

"YOU REJECTED HIM, HE SAVED YOU"

All of these messages are in the process of building up several simple ideas that culminate into an implied argument with the final message:

"WHAT IS EVIL BUT INDIFFERENCE?"

"Indifference" here is used as a non-proper noun; we're just talking about concepts.  There's a well-known quote "All it takes for evil to prevail, is for good people to do nothing."  It's a tidy way of saying "doing nothing is not a neutral action".  The concept of indifference as "hate" or "evil" is a similar concept; the difference is that this statement is more direct.  If you don't care if a person is harmed, if you don't care if someone suffers, then your lack of care is evil.  (At least, that's the idea.)

When things got rough on the Zariman, the Tenno cast Rell out.  Even if you weren't the one who pushed him out the door, you were one of the rest who didn't do anything to stop him from being pushed out and left alone.  Rell was out there, alone, in a dangerous situation, and you (and everyone else) were too indifferent to his existence to do anything to help.

This blood message is talking about you.  It's talking about the blood on your hands.  You're the reason a good person is suffering right now.  Don't you want to think of yourself as a good person?  And doesn't that require that you make things right?  Every message adds a reason you should feel compelled to help Rell.

And if you help Rell, you become the new "keeper" of the Man in the Wall.  Rell was a saint, a martyr; you're not nearly as "good" as Rell, and not nearly as thoughtful or clever.  You will be much easier to bend, to manipulate, and to break than Rell ever was.  For the Man in the Wall, that's a win.

Now, that said, it's understandable that some people would jump to thinking that this message is talking about "The Indifference".  After all, while "The Indifference" is only explicitly mentioned once in all of Warframe, that one time occurs shortly before finding this final blood message.  It's surely intended that the two would play off each other, but my interpretation is that the writing and pacing here could have been better.  The idea of a Lovecraftian concept "The Indifference" is incredibly intriguing, and players want to understand it better.  So when they see "INDIFFERENCE" written in blood, not only do they relate it to "The Indifference" (intended), but they also forget to relate it to the narrative of the blood messages (unintended).

Hopefully it's clear in the above where the facts end and my own interpretations begin.  Some of this is closer to just reading the text and stringing it together, while some of it is attempts at interpolating collections of ideas that are lacking in important details. :)

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

Well, if nothing else, we do know a few things for sure.

- The Man in the Wall is some kind of powerful entity, lurking in the Void. Pretty apparent we're getting some "Elder God" vibes from it.

- The Man in the Wall most likely is giving us things for a reason. Maybe it's so he can escape the Void, maybe it's because he enjoys screwing with the mortal realm, who knows. 

- The Man in the Wall isn't very "good", it's maybe not malicious per se, but I imagine the thing isn't out for anything but its own interest. I have a sneaking suspicion the Zariman incident was it letting us out of the Void, on purpose, for whatever grand plan is devised.

My best guess is he's giving us stuff to help him escape, as I imagine the more Void stuff is used, the higher of a chance he can get out. It seems like the simplest route DE can take outside of "well he's watching ants fight over breadcrumbs and finds it hilarious". While I would prefer that, I don't think DE's going that route.