So why not make everything that's bad...good? (Or at least not so bad)

[Loza03]

17 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

The step you skipped, is giving feedback automatically means it's added to the game.

I don't assume that, I don't even assume they care enough to read posts at all. I'd go as a far as to say, I don't assume a single person on the planet, is going to care about what I have to say, lol.

From my perspective, it's self-entitlement on your part, to just automatically assume people find you relevant. You didn't even stop for 2 seconds to consider, just consider, that maybe no one is reading your posts. Or maybe they do read them but don't find them interesting, or maybe they do find them interesting but unrealistic. Maybe they are relasitic but don't match something else. I'd like you go back and re-examine your ego versus critical thinking on the matter based on realism.

Do 2 column. In the first one, you add the header "why they should listen to me", the second header "why they should not listen to me", then you write down everything you can think of it both and add up the math.

You went all the way to, "if I type something, it's automatically in the game" because I am obviously and flawless jewel.

Even in that world, which doesn't exist, look up 'every situation in the gaming industry since 1978' for emperical data on the subject, the point in case still comes back to the reality of, who do the developers care about? They care about them. As they should. It's their ass, not yours.

They - might - think having every weapon be viable fits their agenda, but they might not. We haven't established that yet. Jumped the gun there too.

Speculatively speaking, there are monotization reasons, as well as design advantages, specifically selling flavour of the month, to keeping certain items terrible, by choice.

Looking at it rationally, you'd have to speculate things are the way they are, because the developers concluded it made the most financial sense... for them. Is that crazy talk to you?

You still over there thinking you personally defined the whole game through your forum posts?

Where, exactly, did I say anything about my own personal contribution? Or any individual's contribution for that matter, or made the claim that community suggestions are implemented unfiltered?

I'm talking about the community as a whole, or at least the part that's vocal enough to be heard, and the effect we as a community collectively have had overall on the direction of development.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

14 hours ago, PhreazerBurn said:

Boltor Prime

Why would you use this anyway when the Telos Boltor exists? The Telos is easily an A or B tier primary.

[Surbusken]

11 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Where, exactly, did I say anything about my own personal contribution? Or any individual's contribution for that matter, or made the claim that community suggestions are implemented unfiltered?

I'm talking about the community as a whole, or at least the part that's vocal enough to be heard, and the effect we as a community collectively have had overall on the direction of development.

... which is close to or around zero.

[Loza03]

Just now, Surbusken said:

... which is close to or around zero.

Given that six years ago, Steve Sinclair outright said something to the same effect as my core point in the Vivergate - that energy is the stopgap, and infinite energy allows for Homer's Drinking Bird to play the game for you - but in the intervening time, having infinite energy went from exploit to feature, I'm going to say that we have more impact than you might want to believe.

[_Tormex_]

Cause balancing takes time and time is money

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

27 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

... which is close to or around zero.

Aaaaaand there’s our evidence that you have no clue what you’re talking about. The WF community has actually had quite a bit of influence on the games development of the years, which is well documented.

Hell, bullet jumping literally became a thing because of an unintended mechanic found by players.

[killerJoke66]

4 hours ago, Surbusken said:

What if reality is the first 10 levels are just meant to waste your time and resources, hoping you might rush some items and put in 200 hours on trash weapons.

Or get a great weapon at level 5 and be content.

You want to get to mr 10 or mr 16, exactly because it's trash. You've assume the developers want every weapon to be used, you can't assume that.

 

Well kohm and hek being lower than mr 7 kinda screws the whole proggression feeling in the primaries , those 2 can be modded for endgame for specific frames or you could put those 2 on a vapor specter and it would scale pretty hard but .. but what do i know 
Maybe its an oversight , maybe they dont even know the power levels within the game ? maybe they simply dont care if it doesnt overpopulate the usage statistics ..?

[killerJoke66]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Aaaaaand there’s our evidence that you have no clue what you’re talking about. The WF community has actually had quite a bit of influence on the games development of the years, which is well documented.

Hell, bullet jumping literally became a thing because of a player exploit.

so coptering was an 'exploit' to you ? and not finding a creative ways to play the game .. mkay 
And glad we have bullet jump or most players wouldnt (probably) get attached to the game in the first place , it would just be another slow loot game.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

4 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

so coptering was an 'exploit' to you ? and not finding a creative ways to play the game .. mkay 
And glad we have bullet jump or most players wouldnt (probably) get attached to the game in the first place , it would just be another slow loot game.

No need to get hung up on semantics, it was an unintended mechanic. Perhaps that’s better wording than “exploit”.

Either way, that has nothing to do with my point and you are just nitpicking for no reason.

I’m obviously glad we have bullet jumping as well.

[killerJoke66]

only abusing a bug/glitch in the coding is offically an 'exploit' , stop calling  people finding different ways to play the game an exploit meanwhile just using what game gives them/us. 
 

[(PSN)GingyGreen]

 For Weapons

Because you will make new player experience even worse.

Rather than getting a sense of progression acquiring stronger and stronger weapons, everything they get in the beginning will be just as string as what they'll get in the end. That's bad game design for a game meant to last a long time. You want Dera to be better? Wait for a Dera from Parvos' Sexy Lawyer Harem.

 

For Warframe Abilities

1. Outside of obvious outliers, Peacemakers being OP, all non-scaling nukes without further utility being trash, Noise Arrow being a useless gimmick, and Boost Pad also being useless, a lot of abilities stand in a subjective middle ground.

Take Mindcontrol for example, it's pretty worthless most of the time, but it's actually pretty useful in non-corpus solo missions.

 

2. For those who are obviously weak, DE does buff them. They just take a long time. For some it's because they're on Warframe's like Nekros and Mesa who need a full on overhaul. For others people just never brought them to attention.

 

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

8 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

only abusing a bug/glitch in the coding is offically an 'exploit' , stop calling  people finding different ways to play the game an exploit meanwhile just using what game gives them/us. 
 

Holy cow dude, chill out. Call it an unintended mechanic instead of an exploit then. Like I already said, that has nothing to do with my point anyway.

Also, I don’t think you understand what an exploit is. DE themselves have literally called coptering an exploit.

[killerJoke66]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)GingyGreen said:

 For Weapons

Because you will make new player experience even worse.

Rather than getting a sense of progression acquiring stronger and stronger weapons, everything they get in the beginning will be just as string as what they'll get in the end. That's bad game design for a game meant to last a long time. You want Dera to be better? Wait for a Dera from Parvos' Sexy Lawyer Harem.

 

Kohm(mr5) and Hek(mr4)  says otherwise its pretty an early game and they can have endgame power right of the bat .

[xombob89]

You cant really buff all weapons to be viable in level 100 content, new players need weapons too that arent god tier for their level of content. There needs to be some kind of power curve on the weapons to give you a feeling of gaining something better when you level up and progress the starchart.

Rivens are - sort of - the answer, I know you said they arent but they could be. Simpliest answer would be buffing all rivens for the terrible weapons so they can get in par with the best ones potentially. Only problem is the huge RNG around rivens, not only getting one you want but also getting the stats that are at the very least decent. Maybe they should ditch this random riven business and let us buy the rivens we want with some kind of currency you get from the missions that usually drop rivens. The rivens for better weapons could be more expensive or require rarer currency.

And before someone says it, yes you can buy riven you want with platinum but it would be better if there was another option.

[killerJoke66]

also just found out that atterax is indeed mr 5 , i know if i keep looking/searching theyll be dozens , and then randomly some mr13 primary not being better than them or being worse , my point is its not consistant on the proggression system .

[Jarriaga]

Both buffs and nerfs are needed. You just happen to see more nerfs because outliers tend to be too strong rather than too weak. For example, If the MK-1 Braton is outperforming the Braton then either the MK-1 Braton is too strong (Needs a nerf) --or-- the Braton is too weak (Needs a buff). The question then becomes, how does the Braton perform in relation to other weapons in its own MR bracket? If it performs just as well then that means that the outlier here is the MK-1 version and it needs to be nerfed. Otherwise, Braton should get a buff. 

Some people don't know this or willingly choose to ignore it, but weapons already got a damage balance pass in 2018 with their overall damage being tied to the expected damage ballpark of their MR bracket. They are already where DE want them. This also means that weapons like the Stug (MR2) are not meant to compete with the Tigris Prime (MR13) in any way, shape or form.

Taking that "damage ballpark" into account, outliers are the ones to be reigned in to fit in with the power of the rest based on the weapon's MR bracket. Doing the opposite by bringing the rest to outlier levels results in the rest of the game (Including enemies) needing to be rebalanced around the outliers, effectively nerfing the entire game as a whole when enemies are buffed as a result of everything but the outlier getting adjusted. You can hear this straight from Pablo's mouth at this timestamp in which he presents the example of the implication of, for example, raising the Rubico to the level of the Bramma and what the Rubico's buffs would need to entail so it can compete against the pre-nerf Bramma.

Outliers like the Stug do need a buff but if you're comparing the Stug (MR2 secondary) to the Tigris Prime (MR13 primary) instead of comparing it to the Castanas (MR3 secondary) you're doing it wrong. Alternatively, lower its MR rank so it no longer gets compared to the Boar or Vectis, but rather to the Lato and Seer. Either way it stops being an outlier in the context of other MR2 secondary weapons.

Weapon tiers are a basic foundation of stats-based games all the way back from the very first Final Fantasy up until Warframe and beyond. You can not buff "weak" stuff without taking into account how to allow for tiers to still exist unless you shift everything towards raw, unadultered powercreep in order to keep tiers.

[Corvid]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

DE themselves have literally called coptering an exploit.

Specifically, an exploit with the physics engine and how it applied a disproportionate impulse of forward momentum when using certain attacks on fast-swinging weapons.

[Surbusken]

17 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Given that six years ago, Steve Sinclair outright said something to the same effect as my core point in the Vivergate - that energy is the stopgap, and infinite energy allows for Homer's Drinking Bird to play the game for you - but in the intervening time, having infinite energy went from exploit to feature, I'm going to say that we have more impact than you might want to believe.

Again great, you have an example, from 6 years ago, which is justified exclusively based on "because they said so".

What about everything else, that happened after that, in the last 6 years, we can objectively measure happened in reality.

There is a few stations you seem to skip in most of your train of thought. This time you skipped the question, just because someone "said so", does that make it fact?

"The accused is innocent you honor... because he said so". Well, instead, we going to take evidence coupled with motive, character analysiz and "reasonable speculation", deduction and compile everything into a cluster.

It's reasonable to assume, that a developer who doesn't know, would prioritize his job over your forum posts, correct? It's also reasonable to think you probably have a giant ego, that you would wish for them to care about you, because you need them to, but you aren't conscious about that fact because it would hurt your own story of how great you are.

And so on.

Out in the reality of corporatism, "what they said" is a counter argument. A press release is characterized literally by being the opposite of reality. A community manager's job is to spin the truth, silence veto at the right time and create an image, as their profession.

I don't know what school you went to, but his is basic, common knowledge.

You will have to come to terms with people in the actual real world having an active interest in lying to your face, especially when money is involved, as the way things are.

When you grow up, you will find the core essense of anything corporate is a theater. Politics, journalism and even take a look at entertainment culture, which is quite literally... an act.

All the world's a stage? It's elementary bro. 10th grade litterature.

Which again leads back to your opinion of yourself, that you are too clever to be manipulated or thought of so highly by your peers, no one would ever dream of looking down on you, etc.

If the conclusion is you are oh so special, it's only natural the developers read your posts day and night, right? I am sure they print out your posts, send them around the office, hang on your every word and take notes.

What is the most rational thought, they care about their jobs and their own money and interest, or they care about you? One is your ego talking the other is reality.

 

 

[Tiltskillet]

15 hours ago, PhreazerBurn said:

What is stopping DE from making a quick and dirty mass buff to all the things that are currently useless?

 

I don't know about "all the things" but it's a good question with a lot of answers.  And I don't think any of them are entirely satisfactory.

Not to take anything away from all the structural explanations that have been given in this thread, I'm going to offer a psychological and economic one:  Players as a very general rule are more interested in new things than old things, so that's where developers spend most of their time.  (That, and keeping the game running.)

I do think they tend to overestimate how much players disregard old things, but I'd guess devs as well are more interested in new things than old.  Maybe even moreso than players, since they tend to be creative types.  Particularly when we're talking about the ones who decide the general direction of their games.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

32 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Again great, you have an example, from 6 years ago, which is justified exclusively based on "because they said so".

What about everything else, that happened after that, in the last 6 years, we can objectively measure happened in reality.

There is a few stations you seem to skip in most of your train of thought. This time you skipped the question, just because someone "said so", does that make it fact?

"The accused is innocent you honor... because he said so". Well, instead, we going to take evidence coupled with motive, character analysiz and "reasonable speculation", deduction and compile everything into a cluster.

It's reasonable to assume, that a developer who doesn't know, would prioritize his job over your forum posts, correct? It's also reasonable to think you probably have a giant ego, that you would wish for them to care about you, because you need them to, but you aren't conscious about that fact because it would hurt your own story of how great you are.

And so on.

Out in the reality of corporatism, "what they said" is a counter argument. A press release is characterized literally by being the opposite of reality. A community manager's job is to spin the truth, silence veto at the right time and create an image, as their profession.

I don't know what school you went to, but his is basic, common knowledge.

You will have to come to terms with people in the actual real world having an active interest in lying to your face, especially when money is involved, as the way things are.

When you grow up, you will find the core essense of anything corporate is a theater. Politics, journalism and even take a look at entertainment culture, which is quite literally... an act.

All the world's a stage? It's elementary bro. 10th grade litterature.

Which again leads back to your opinion of yourself, that you are too clever to be manipulated or thought of so highly by your peers, no one would ever dream of looking down on you, etc.

If the conclusion is you are oh so special, it's only natural the developers read your posts day and night, right? I am sure they print out your posts, send them around the office, hang on your every word and take notes.

What is the most rational thought, they care about their jobs and their own money and interest, or they care about you? One is your ego talking the other is reality.

I’m convinced you live on a different planet than the rest of us.

[Loza03]

24 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Again great, you have an example, from 6 years ago, which is justified exclusively based on "because they said so".

What about everything else, that happened after that, in the last 6 years, we can objectively measure happened in reality.

There is a few stations you seem to skip in most of your train of thought. This time you skipped the question, just because someone "said so", does that make it fact?

"The accused is innocent you honor... because he said so". Well, instead, we going to take evidence coupled with motive, character analysiz and "reasonable speculation", deduction and compile everything into a cluster.

It's reasonable to assume, that a developer who doesn't know, would prioritize his job over your forum posts, correct? It's also reasonable to think you probably have a giant ego, that you would wish for them to care about you, because you need them to, but you aren't conscious about that fact because it would hurt your own story of how great you are.

And so on.

Out in the reality of corporatism, "what they said" is a counter argument. A press release is characterized literally by being the opposite of reality. A community manager's job is to spin the truth, silence veto at the right time and create an image, as their profession.

I don't know what school you went to, but his is basic, common knowledge.

You will have to come to terms with people in the actual real world having an active interest in lying to your face, especially when money is involved, as the way things are.

When you grow up, you will find the core essense of anything corporate is a theater. Politics, journalism and even take a look at entertainment culture, which is quite literally... an act.

All the world's a stage? It's elementary bro. 10th grade litterature.

Which again leads back to your opinion of yourself, that you are too clever to be manipulated or thought of so highly by your peers, no one would ever dream of looking down on you, etc.

If the conclusion is you are oh so special, it's only natural the developers read your posts day and night, right? I am sure they print out your posts, send them around the office, hang on your every word and take notes.

What is the most rational thought, they care about their jobs and their own money and interest, or they care about you? One is your ego talking the other is reality.

 

 

Look, this conversation's going nowhere, and you're behaving irrationally. For the sake of both of our mental health, I'm cutting this conversation off here.

[Surbusken]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Look, this conversation's going nowhere, and you're behaving irrationally. For the sake of both of our mental health, I'm cutting this conversation off here.

You can speak for yourself, but the lack of progress is my entire point.
I'd like to think a little deeper, a little further and grow from the experience, you'd like to go back to where you feel the most safe. That is my entire point.

Which could potentially be the best advice anyone ever gave you and I know I seem cold and heartless in my presentation, but if you look at the activity in and of itself, I am asking you to raise the bar for yourself and offer solutions.

Ultimately, ask more questions, be more critical and I actually even thought about suggestioning you some litterature to get you started.

But yes it does come at the cost of learning to check your ego at the door

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

55 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Both buffs and nerfs are needed. You just happen to see more nerfs because outliers tend to be too strong rather than too weak. For example, If the MK-1 Braton is outperforming the Braton then either the MK-1 Braton is too strong (Needs a nerf) --or-- the Braton is too weak (Needs a buff). The question then becomes, how does the Braton perform in relation to other weapons in its own MR bracket? If it performs just as well then that means that the outlier here is the MK-1 version and it needs to be nerfed. Otherwise, Braton should get a buff. 

Some people don't know this or willingly choose to ignore it, but weapons already got a damage balance pass in 2018 with their overall damage being tied to the expected damage ballpark of their MR bracket. They are already where DE want them. This also means that weapons like the Stug (MR2) are not meant to compete with the Tigris Prime (MR13) in any way, shape or form.

Taking that "damage ballpark" into account, outliers are the ones to be reigned in to fit in with the power of the rest based on the weapon's MR bracket. Doing the opposite by bringing the rest to outlier levels results in the rest of the game (Including enemies) needing to be rebalanced around the outliers, effectively nerfing the entire game as a whole when enemies are buffed as a result of everything but the outlier getting adjusted. You can hear this straight from Pablo's mouth at this timestamp in which he presents the example of the implication of, for example, raising the Rubico to the level of the Bramma and what the Rubico's buffs would need to entail so it can compete against the pre-nerf Bramma.

Outliers like the Stug do need a buff but if you're comparing the Stug (MR2 secondary) to the Tigris Prime (MR13 primary) instead of comparing it to the Castanas (MR3 secondary) you're doing it wrong. Alternatively, lower its MR rank so it no longer gets compared to the Boar or Vectis, but rather to the Lato and Seer. Either way it stops being an outlier in the context of other MR2 secondary weapons.

Weapon tiers are a basic foundation of stats-based games all the way back from the very first Final Fantasy up until Warframe and beyond. You can not buff "weak" stuff without taking into account how to allow for tiers to still exist unless you shift everything towards raw, unadultered powercreep in order to keep tiers.

This is a really great breakdown but how do you explain all the inconsistencies in weapon power in relation to MR? It doesn’t look like the weapons pass from 2018 really had the effect they were looking for.

There are still plenty of weapons with power levels that make no sense in relation to their MR, such as the Hek, for one example.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

2 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

But yes it does come at the cost of learning to check your ego at the door

The irony is palpable.

[Jarriaga]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

This is a really great breakdown but how do you explain all the inconsistencies in weapon power in relation to MR? It doesn’t look like the weapons pass from 2018 really had the effect they were looking for.

There are still plenty of weapons with power levels that make no sense in relation to their MR, such as the Hek, for one example.

Yes. I agree there are still some outliers there that need to be nerfed, buffed, or moved to a different MR bracket with their current stats in order to better reflect their expected performance.