Corn Robot: Must we go in this direction?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I see. So you really don't have a grasp on basic logic. That would explain why you argue fallaciously as you do.

Another question, not answered. It's ok man. 

I'll pretend to be a warframe Karen to find a common ground with you:

"Trash corn robot?! why are they in the game!? I have a totally logical suggestion! Let's not go down this road, DE. Let's get back to the basics and focus on the core of warframe!"

Is that better, buddy?

[XaoGarrent]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Another question, not answered. It's ok man. 

I'll pretend to be a warframe Karen to find a common ground with you:

"Trash corn robot?! why are they in the game!? I have a totally logical suggestion! Let's not go down this road, DE. Let's get back to the basics and focus on the core of warframe!"

Is that better, buddy?

Here's a hint: Try using a search engine if you don't understand a word or a concept, instead of immediately responding and demonstrating a vast gap in your understanding. Unfalsifiable doesn't mean what you think it does. A couple minutes with google would have saved you this embarrassment.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, XaoGarrent said:

Here's a hint: Try using a search engine if you don't understand a word or a concept, instead of immediately responding and demonstrating a vast gap in your understanding. Unfalsifiable doesn't mean what you think it does. A couple minutes with google would have saved you this embarrassment.

"not capable of being proved false"

So I'll try one more time, let's see if you're capable....: 

What is your solution to "corn robots" being a part of the game? 

What exactly, do you claim is "not capable of being proved false"? 

What cogent argument do you have for saying someone that likes mechs isn't a part of this reality? 

Why are you assuming that because someone likes mechs, that there's something wrong with them? 

Can you answer any of these questions, at all? Yes or no? 

 

[Tyreaus]

12 hours ago, (NSW)JigsJosh said:

I'm not sure you understand the lore behind them with the first comment. They were the original Warframes basically. Prototypes. Based on how they established that, I would clearly deduce that they are not trying to replace them. But to talk about that some more, being that they are prototypes, they will excel or be lacking in one way or another compared to their predecessors the Warframes. 

It's not about the lore ad verbatim but the choices made in developing the lore that I have major issue with. Up to this point, Warframes / Tenno were the Achilles heel to Sentients, being the only thing that could harness the energy Sentients were vulnerable to. For a game about a power fantasy, that's a comfortable position to put the player in. We're the heroes of the solar system against the Sentient threat, woo!

The problem I have is that the writers chose to break that monopoly by making Necramechs similarly capable by themselves. They may be technically inferior in some regards, being prototypes, but the point is that there's now reason to doubt our importance. We were the only things that could save the system from the Sentients, so the story went. But perhaps we were wrong. Maybe if the Orokin had developed Necramechs more, they could have made them smaller, more mobile, with better remote piloting (I recall Father remote-piloting one, and even if not, it doesn't seem that far-fetched) and mass-production. Maybe the only reason Tenno were used is because the Orokin could make Warframes shinier and prettier than Necramechs. That's a huge step down from "sole protector of the universe" espoused prior to Deimos.

And, crucially, it's an unnecessary step. There was zero obligation for Necramechs to be positioned as "proto-Warframes". The writers made an active choice to position Necramechs that way. It's that active choice that gives me the impression that it's an attempted replacement. It's not a good or effective one, but for what other reason would it have been made?

12 hours ago, (NSW)JigsJosh said:

I understand though when you say it's in the same lane as Warframes basically, but it would be hard to not make something else Operators can transfer into that aren't in the same lane. That's something a lot of us in the community have been waiting forever for. Honestly they can make a thousand different things in the same lane and I wouldn't mind, just simply because I want more and more things to transfer into. They teased us so hard with the Golden Maw in The War Within and I was so upset that there wasn't anything else I could transfer into besides the Warframes, and now we finally have that. But yeah I don't really see a way they can make things to transfer into that won't seem like and overshadowing or underfoot feature in the same lane.

I don't get the impression you do understand. The issue has nothing to do with Transference. If we had things like the Golden Maw to transfer into, that would not be an issue. Being able to transfer into Golden Maws doesn't jeopardize the importance of Warframes or Tenno, because the Golden Maw has an entirely different purpose. Meanwhile, the purposes of Warframes and Necramechs seems almost identical: combatting the Sentient threat via use of Void energies (the latter being without the Operator, too). That would be the case even if our Warframes, not Operators, piloted them. That is stepping into the Warframe's lane, not how we get into them. And yes, there are ways to work around that - saying Necramechs are prototypes or aren't intelligent (and have to be automated for...some reason) - but let's be clear: that's trying to wiggle out of a situation the writers wrote themselves into in the first place.

[XaoGarrent]

18 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

"not capable of being proved false"

If you're going to pretend to but not actually do the proper research on a subject, at least make your statements grammatically correct to some degree. Just so it's not immediately obvious you aren't actually quoting anything and are just responding, again, with an uninformed assumption. Just a little hint for the future.

Unfalsifiable still doesn't have the meaning you think it does. So go back and this time actually try. Then realize what you've done, and YOU make an argument. I'm not the one that needs to answer questions, you've already set yourself up in a position to reject anything I could say on the grounds of treating everything here as subjective.

I'm not playing into this pretense of yours. Attempt to argue something objective or stop responding. I'm sure literally anyone here can do a better job than you with just a lick of visual art theory, providing they have that kind of knowledge.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

26 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

If you're going to pretend to but not actually do the proper research on a subject, at least make your statements grammatically correct to some degree. Just so it's not immediately obvious you aren't actually quoting anything and are just responding, again, with an uninformed assumption. Just a little hint for the future.

Unfalsifiable still doesn't have the meaning you think it does. So go back and this time actually try. Then realize what you've done, and YOU make an argument. I'm not the one that needs to answer questions, you've already set yourself up in a position to reject anything I could say on the grounds of treating everything here as subjective.

I'm not playing into this pretense of yours. Attempt to argue something objective or stop responding. I'm sure literally anyone here can do a better job than you with just a lick of visual art theory, providing they have that kind of knowledge.

Alright, nothing again. No problem. I'll recap for you:

You're in a thread where the OP is claiming that the very existence of mechs makes him want to take more breaks from the game... 

He claims that if he has to use mechs for the new war, he will stop playing or play less, because he doesn't want to pilot a necramech....

1 of his issues has already been resolved....as we now have necramech cosmetics. So he now has the option to no longer look at a "corn husk" necramech.

His 2nd issue presents its own issue, because he's basically giving warframe an ultimatum to stop further progression of necramechs into the story, or else we lose him as a customer. 

This premise was false to begin with, because he's assuming he's important enough to halt all necramech progression involving the new war, based on his threat to stop playing.

We've already observed that other players do in fact like necramechs, based on an answer in this thread, and in others as well. 

So, based on your comments.....how can multiple players be in an alternate reality for liking necramechs when we're all in the same forum and playing the same game? 

[Cpl_Facehugger]

19 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

It's not about the lore ad verbatim but the choices made in developing the lore that I have major issue with. Up to this point, Warframes / Tenno were the Achilles heel to Sentients, being the only thing that could harness the energy Sentients were vulnerable to. For a game about a power fantasy, that's a comfortable position to put the player in. We're the heroes of the solar system against the Sentient threat, woo!

The problem I have is that the writers chose to break that monopoly by making Necramechs similarly capable by themselves. They may be technically inferior in some regards, being prototypes, but the point is that there's now reason to doubt our importance. We were the only things that could save the system from the Sentients, so the story went. But perhaps we were wrong. Maybe if the Orokin had developed Necramechs more, they could have made them smaller, more mobile, with better remote piloting (I recall Father remote-piloting one, and even if not, it doesn't seem that far-fetched) and mass-production. Maybe the only reason Tenno were used is because the Orokin could make Warframes shinier and prettier than Necramechs. That's a huge step down from "sole protector of the universe" espoused prior to Deimos.

And, crucially, it's an unnecessary step. There was zero obligation for Necramechs to be positioned as "proto-Warframes". The writers made an active choice to position Necramechs that way. It's that active choice that gives me the impression that it's an attempted replacement. It's not a good or effective one, but for what other reason would it have been made?

Fundamentally necramechs are not similarly capable at beating up sentients as warframes. Mechs carry just two weapons, their gun and their arquebex/ironbride. You remember how much of a PITA it was to fight sents before TWW gave us operator lasers to clear their resistances? I do. You needed to bring a very wide spread of elements on your three weapons to deal with sent adaptation or overpower their adaptations through brute force. (And that wouldn't likely work in lore because levels aren't a thing so you can't get by beating up level 10 battalysts with your galatine prime.) Even piloted by tenno and thus smart enough to respond to sent adapations, mechs are an inferior sentient-fighting platform simply on basis of how they can't carry as varied an arsenal. (They also can't carry any of our specialized anti-sent tools like umbral mods or paracesis.)

Plus, remember, sentients teleport wherever they want. A mech's inferior mobility is going to be much more crippling in a "real" situation where there isn't gameplay forcing confrontation, because sentients will be able to strike wherever they please, so they'll only show up to fight your mechs when they have the advantage. Warframes are at least fast enough to try to respond to deep striking teleporting sents.

I guess you could suppose the orokin could develop a mech with as varied an arsenal as a warframe even though every mech we've seen has just the two weapons, but even that doesn't detract from the fact that warframes just do the same job massively better. They're smaller and faster. They're almost as tanky, they can unleash more widespread destruction, they can operate in tight conditions that mechs can't. Heck, frames can even carry the same weaponry as mechs unless we're assuming the orokin couldn't make gravimags. And that's not even getting into the likely logistical benefits of frames: Since they're made of infestation, they should be a lot easier to maintain than a mechanical necramech. It's not at all hard to imagine why the orokin dropped the mechs (that don't actually work very well for hunting sentients) in favor of the option that actually works wonderfully. 

But more than that, I take exception to this idea that we aren't the heroes of the solar system against the sentient threat, just because the orokin tried big clunky mechs before developing warframes.

I mean, reread what you just wrote:

"Maybe if the Orokin had developed Necramechs more, they could have made them smaller, more mobile, with better remote piloting (I recall Father remote-piloting one, and even if not, it doesn't seem that far-fetched) and mass-production."

That sounds an awful lot like a warframe, doesn't it? Smaller, mobile, remote-piloted sentient-killers? You're asking the orokin to make warframes. Literally we saw what the orokin developed as their next gen sentient fighting platform, and we're it. Mechs were the first orokin attempt at an anti-sentient platform, and they failed just like the grineer soldier failed. Even the warframes alone failed, though at least that was because they couldn't be controlled rather than any deficiency in warfighting capability. I guess I just don't see how the orokin trying something else that ultimately failed is supposed to detract from our position as the saviors of the origin system. If anything, I'd think that heightening orokin desperation by inventing yet another failed attempt at a sentient killer would enhance the aura of awesomeness surrounding tenno. The orokin tried everything from hulking war robots with big guns to armies of grineer soldiers, but only tenno were able to turn the tide. Everything before us failed.

 

[Tyreaus]

18 minutes ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

-snip-

I'm going to skip over the nitty-gritty details because that's not really my point.

Let me put it this way:

Prior to the Deimos update, what has the lore said about Tenno being the Orokin's proverbial wildcard? Insofar as I can tell, and correct me if I'm wrong, the core idea is that the Tenno are Void-touched, the only things able to wield the power capable of countering the Sentient threat, via their Warframes. Necramechs have countered that "only" part. They show the Orokin could, in fact, wield Void energy themselves - at minimum in the form of their shielding, though IMHO weaponry isn't that far removed.

Of course we can get into nitty gritty details about Necramechs not being as fast or mobile or readily repaired, and we can hypothesize about what advancements are or aren't possible, and we can argue about that for hours. But the point is that we were in a solid position of being the proverbial savours without doubt or question. Notice now how we're pulling together things like "well Warframes could carry more weapons" or "Necramechs were too big" or "Sentients could teleport" in order to explain the importance of Warframes. Notice, likewise, how all of those can come with their own questions of "why couldn't they improve Necramechs instead of abandoning the project?" We don't have all the details so it's impossible to answer - and even if we knew more, we can go around and around. But before this update, it was never necessary to answer with details because the overarching idea held firm. Nothing could wield Void power but us. Full stop. No gritty, fine details needed. It was a 'soft magic' solution that held firm.

In other words: there is no hope in hell this kind of conversation would have occurred prior to Deimos. Now we're here. We went from a place of no doubt to a place where doubt can exist. Is it conclusive or convincing skepticism? Maybe not for everyone, sure. I can only give my feelings and impressions. But that's something that was downright impossible, and was then made possible because...reasons? I don't know.

(Also, the same sort of thing goes for the Warframe's only weakness. It was the Well in which the Tenno rest - but also apparently the Heart of Deimos could be nuked and that'd take them out of commission, too. Not exactly an "only" weakness if there's an alternative.)

[xombob89]

On 2020-12-23 at 9:19 AM, JustL1me said:

Get in the Necramech, Shinji.

For a real answer, it's 100% likely they're just doing this as a one-time gimmick event. A gimmick.

You wish lol. To me all signs point to the opposite, the event is just a big testing ground for the future. Theyll be available in regular maps, and soon probably required for certain content like archwings are now. 

[IceColdHawk]

On 2020-12-23 at 8:19 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Do you think they're just gonna delete them from the game or something? 

Do you remember trials? Dark Sectors? Exactly.

[B4HEK]

1 минуту назад, IceColdHawk сказал:

Do you remember trials? Dark Sectors? Exactly.

Honestly, i would be glad to see this useless junk deleted from the game.

Forcing us to use it via plot which is already broken is not a good idea either...

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, B4HEK said:

Honestly, i would be glad to see this useless junk deleted from the game.

Forcing us to use it via plot which is already broken is not a good idea either...

I used to complain about lots of recent things thrown into the game that can't really find their place. But Necramechs definitely take the cake. I'm not sure who thought it would be a great idea to throw parkour out of the window and reintroducing stamina indirectly.

[B4HEK]

21 минуту назад, IceColdHawk сказал:

I used to complain about lots of recent things thrown into the game that can't really find their place. But Necramechs definitely take the cake. I'm not sure who thought it would be a great idea to throw parkour out of the window and reintroducing stamina indirectly.

Nechramechs only got their place in the lore as battle platforms, which was abandoned by the Orokin empire as ineffective... But somehow DE are now telling us that they are perfect choice to fight sentients.

Even father tells us that nechramechs are just machines, like sentients, but without intelligence.

Now, i read the Excalibur`s description in Codex: 

The Sentients had won. They had turned our weapons, our technology, against us. The more advanced we became, the greater our losses. The war was over unless we found a new way. In our desperation we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed.

...

WTF, DE???!!!

ALSO, about the Orphix Venom:

The Void is lethal to sentients...

In Heart of Deimos quest our warframe was able to operate without heart active, powered only by the Tenno...

As i see it, the only possibility to interrupt warframe from operating is void energy overload...

Now the question: How the f*ck sentients are able to operate with void energy???!!!

We took the twisted few that had returned from that place. We built a frame around them, a conduit of their affliction. Gave them the weapons of the old ways. Gun and blade. A new warrior, a new code was born. These rejects, these Tenno, became our saviors. Warrior-Gods cast in steel and fury striking our enemies in a way they could never comprehend. Excalibur was the first.

[B4HEK]

В 24.12.2020 в 23:20, XaoGarrent сказал:

making necramechs more OP.

Good joke by the way...

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

11 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Do you remember trials? Dark Sectors? Exactly.

Were those deleted from the game right after they were introduced, due to a feedback thread? 

[(XBOX)SwiftBMF]

Hadnt logged in at all since around july but saw the affinity booster & thought ide log in to level up the damn thing so I get some arcanes when/if the event comes to console,our vault bounties still lock back up when you go back to the hub so we're way behind still.

 

But yeah in general I hate the mechs but I think most of that comes from how painful it was to farm void rig for me & that it needs 5 forma.

To be honest Im not feeling this whole sentient infested rhing theyre doing at all hence why I hadnt logged in for over 6 months.

Got over 3000 hours sunk in to warframe but I dont have any interest in logging in anymore.

 

[IceColdHawk]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Were those deleted from the game right after they were introduced, due to a feedback thread? 

Here's the thing, people didn't ask for them to be removed. Yet they got. Making it even worse.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

Here's the thing, people didn't ask for them to be removed. Yet they got. Making it even worse.

That's odd, as I've seen many people say they're glad they're gone. And then DEs own data suggested only 1.3% of total players were using them, I assume after some time had passed to collect said data. 

So that answer is no: they weren't deleted immediately after release. 

You might as well give mechs some time to be enjoyed by the people that like them, then you can go mr end of the world and wait for them to be deleted afterwards. 

[IceColdHawk]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

That's odd, as I've seen many people say they're glad they're gone. And then DEs own data suggested only 1.3% of total players were using them, I assume after some time had passed to collect said data. 

So that answer is no: they weren't deleted immediately after release. 

You might as well give mechs some time to be enjoyed by the people that like them, then you can go mr end of the world and wait for them to be deleted afterwards. 

Why would anyone be GLAD for OPTIONAL content to be gone? This is complete nonsense. I don't like hydroid. For me? Trash frame. Would i be glad if he got removed? Yo, hell no. What do i gain from it? And if i don't like him i can still play countless other frames. It doesn't exactly work in the event and possibly future content where we're forced to play mechs and forgo our warframes.

Now necramech on the other hand is not just "optional" content that you can just ignore. It's being forced upon us. We even got an event that you can't participate without playing mech and forget about using the "free" unmodded ones so you're also forced to either buy or grind your butt for them.

Besides, what's to like about mechs other than maybe voidrig's 4 which is like a giga ultra super turret? They're inferior warframes in every regard. Survivability, speed, parkour, abilities and they even have stamina. It's nothing new really, just a worse version of "Warframe" basically.

[Zexal]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

 And then DEs own data suggested only 1.3% of total players were using them, I assume after some time had passed to collect said data. 

The same data that will suggest that 75% of the playerbase used a necramech in the last 10 days.
Let's be honest, forcing players to use a "content" that no one has ever asked for just to boost the stats isn't right, and so is their data.

[Voltage]

I don't like how restrictive Necramechs are and how isolated they are in the game. Warframe's bread and butter is variety, and Arquebex isn't variety... Health, Shields, Energy, and other synergies are barely existent and potentially oversights if there is one.

If I listed every issue I have with Necramechs and they got fixed, You would just have 2 new Warframes.

21 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

They're inferior warframes in every regard. Survivability, speed, parkour, abilities and they even have stamina.

This is how I feel about the current Necramech situation. They just feel like an outdated and inferior version of the game we've been accustomed to. They feel like the K-Drive of Warframes. Sure, they exist and are an option, but they are so impractical that they need to be forced on the player to see any real usage.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2020-12-23 at 2:27 AM, (XBOX)Shodian said:

It's really quite a funweapon

It's almost like fun is subjective, and given that the playstyle of the mechs is different than with warframes, and they have a lot of old warframe issues that they've had to remove or fix due to community feedback (clunky movement due to constant, overdone movement recovery animations, trash base energy economy, lack of reliable healing, lack of build variety, all QOL is on mods, the list keeps going.) it's not surprising that a lot of people who like the core gameplay of current warframe do not like the mech gameplay.  Full disclosure is that I actually do like mech gameplay despite all the complaints and reservations I have about it.  I just want those complaints addressed.  And speaking of addressing things:

 

On 2020-12-23 at 2:27 AM, (XBOX)Shodian said:

you just have to accept it

We don't though.  That's why there's feedback forums.  That's why the community has managed to get at least some changes for the better forced through.  Because it's not something we have to accept.  OP is free to tell the devs they don't want any more of this gameplay, and people are allowed to agree with them.  I'm free to tell them that several parts of the mech gameplay are trash and need to be fixed and people are allowed to agree with me.  No one has to accept anything just because your response to everything is apparently to shill for whatever the devs want.

  

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

This is how I feel about the current Necramech situation. They just feel like an outdated and inferior version of the game we've been accustomed to. They feel like the K-Drive of Warframes. Sure, they exist and are an option, but they are so impractical that they need to be forced on the player to see any real usage.

I agree with this and I actually enjoy stomping around in my mech.  They 100% feel like some dev can't let "the good old days" go and wants stamina and trash energy economy and several other clunky systems back in the game.  I would use them as options both for just a laugh in lower level missions, or as an extra layer of defense to take out a hard target in higher level missions, knowing they were going to blow my mech up and I'd be back in my frame after I did what I summoned the mech to do, but the forced content shouldn't make a come back.  They have uses, but they need a lot of work to be good.

[B4HEK]

В 23.12.2020 в 21:44, XaoGarrent сказал:

Have you tried the Kuva Ayanga? That thing is a BEAST. Best weapon in the game easily and even better when you're using the fastest vehicle in the game.

Melee gang, LOL 🤣

[B4HEK]

В 23.12.2020 в 10:27, (XBOX)Shodian сказал:

It's really quite a funweapon if you take the time to build it up. It's part of the game now and you just have to accept it. Just buy one from the market and level it up. 

Despite that this new parts of game are lore-breaking trash, compared to core of the game, everything is OK.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

12 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Why would anyone be GLAD for OPTIONAL content to be gone? This is complete nonsense. I don't like hydroid. For me? Trash frame. Would i be glad if he got removed? Yo, hell no. What do i gain from it? And if i don't like him i can still play countless other frames. It doesn't exactly work in the event and possibly future content where we're forced to play mechs and forgo our warframes.

Now necramech on the other hand is not just "optional" content that you can just ignore. It's being forced upon us. We even got an event that you can't participate without playing mech and forget about using the "free" unmodded ones so you're also forced to either buy or grind your butt for them.

Besides, what's to like about mechs other than maybe voidrig's 4 which is like a giga ultra super turret? They're inferior warframes in every regard. Survivability, speed, parkour, abilities and they even have stamina. It's nothing new really, just a worse version of "Warframe" basically.

I think it was more about the bugs. Idk I didn't hit the delete button. 

As far as the new event, I heard you can use your operator as well. So if you made a group with 3 mech and you decided to use your operator to do another part of the objective that seems like good teamwork lol. 

Otherwise I can't really help you and just tell DE to delete everything, as that's patently silly.