What are your issues with warframe?

[Sazero]

Don't worry guys. Energy Economy might be broken for Warframes, but it isn't for Necramechs.
Therefore I propose that Necramechs become the new main game that everything is designed around.
What could possibly go wrong? :^)

[(XBOX)Calliber]

Too easy once you hit late game.  There's almost no risk of failure, we are too powerful and enemies generally speaking are of no threat.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

And trying to nerf the energy economy around a bunch of 4 year vets is a terrible idea. Vets and people that are really good at games are a minority. There are a lot of people that still need a lot of experience and guidance and loot and gear in the game.

 

... and?

Nothing about this statement is in any way mutually exclusive with, or even a logical conclusion to the statement that a one-size-fits-all energy economy is problematic. Honestly speaking, they're two different scales. You could nerf the current energy economy to the ground based on what the best of the best have access to, and it'd be a different manifestation the exact same problem - that we have a universal input of energy, matched against a non-universal cost, which both causes its own problems and exacerbates others.

[GEN-Son_17]

On 2021-02-25 at 1:48 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

The lack of direction is one of my biggest gripes with the game.

Warframe never was one for "tags" but at the same time it tries to be tagged as everything , wide as an ocean and deep as a puddle,with ocassional sink holes , as many say.

Wish they focused to complete one thing so it feels " finished".

I enjoyed my many years playing the game , but eventually I hit a point where there was no more meaningful progression , and I can't really say I finished it either cause there is always a new update.

I am reminded of the last episodes of "the good place" , once you have all your power fantasy met everything starts to get dull and you start to forget the things that you enjoyed. 

A big "The end , thanks for playing " is probably what I want now.

I feel that and I think this is why Warframe won't have that for quite a while. 

I see Warframe's storytelling like the Game of Thrones method. Each faction has to progress and their worlds are expanded as time goes. Looking back at Warframe's progression, it makes sense to me how they are doing it. The big issue is it takes a while for that small team (and it is a very small team) to breathe playable life into such a detailed storyboard.

Luckily, we all know what the climax is going to be (New War) but we are yet to see how each currently active faction is going to evolve/devolve and, more interesting to me, how each yet to be revealed or currently inactive faction is going to surface. I remember from an early interview that Warframe had a 10 year plan and we're in year 8. They could easily extend to 2023 or longer (without "endgame") to the story...but I would just create Warframe 2 at that point.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Angwah said:

I believe you underestimating Maim and Volt's 4, but for the sake of the argument, what would do you consider a nuke? Because whatever it is, it will be as easily spammed as Maim and Volt's 4.

Also, we can't argue balancing around SP, or deep into endurance runs, but ESO below wave 5 isn't valid either?

Seriously.... 

Probably loosely defined as a large AOE that deals burst damage. If you want to add large scale DoT damage that's ok as well. As a bunch of small ticks over time can be just as devastating as an immediate burst. 

Thermal sunder, gara breaking her 4 with her one, discharge, spores and/or miasma, etc. They're all nukes on wave 5 of Hydron, but aren't going to alone do the same damage on higher levels.

Wave 5 of ESO was an example, but maybe wave 8 it falls off? Idk I'll have to jump in with a volt solo and try it out it's been awhile.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

... and?

Nothing about this statement is in any way mutually exclusive with, or even a logical conclusion to the statement that a one-size-fits-all energy economy is problematic. Honestly speaking, they're two different scales. You could nerf the current energy economy to the ground based on what the best of the best have access to, and it'd be a different manifestation the exact same problem - that we have a universal input of energy, matched against a non-universal cost, which both causes its own problems and exacerbates others.

Well obviously.....we have a universal input of energy, but the costs are non universal because there's over 40 frames with their own mechanics.....what'd you think was gonna happen? 

Do you think Prowl should just be something you turn on for 75 energy and it stays on forever? A duration like 20 secs base?

That's not how the game works at the moment. If you choose to play a frame, you deal with their strengths and weaknesses.

[Loza03]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Well obviously.....we have a universal input of energy, but the costs are non universal because there's over 40 frames with their own mechanics.....what'd you think was gonna happen? 

Do you think Prowl should just be something you turn on for 75 energy and it stays on forever? A duration like 20 secs base?

That's not how the game works at the moment. If you choose to play a frame, you deal with their strengths and weaknesses.

Exactly. Since it's impossible to balance these abilities by output and keep such a diverse set of powers, then we need to approach the situation from the opposite angle. The universal input of energy isn't working, and it's making it too easy to not have to deal with the weaknesses of frames - especially since several older powers were explicitly designed so that limited availablity was their weakness. 

Quote

 

Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

~Steve Sinclair, source Vivergate: Vent Radioactive Gas Y/n - Developer Workshop & Update Notes - Warframe Forums

This quote also points out the issue with a lack of balance, at least in Warframe's specific case - namely, non-interactive play.

 

Therefore, axe the universal input. Nerf or remove external source of energy where appropriate until a player is incapable of sustaining energy generation on external sources alone, and then compensate by increasing or introducing the ability to regenerate energy on a case-by-case basis. This can even be used to make less-valuable abilities more important, as if stronger powers cannot regenerate energy and only expend it, then frames can lean into their own gameplay loops - this can also make individual frames more distinctive.

Frames with more powerful abilities that are disruptive or a problem to have on all the time can then be made so that they simply cannot maintain their abilities, and must use them wisely, but this does not negatively impact frames with a lower output and more spammy abilities by design.

[SneakyErvin]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You do need energy pads, and you do need arcanes, or they wouldn't have made a 1x, 10x, and 100x research....and they wouldn't have had to use Scarlet spear and orphix venom as a way to level the playing field so people don't have to buy arcanes for 800p from gatekeepers. 

You don't "need" any stats in the game but people use them for different reasons and different builds. Just because you play a certain way doesn't mean everyone does. 

You dont need any of it since there are so many different options for energy management that cost practically nothing. You are also under the assumption that pre-mission planning equals management, it doesnt. Management means something you need to keep an eye on during your active gameplay i.e missions, dungeons, raids or whatever the flark a game may call it. We dont need to actively manage anything in WF in order to go ham crazy bat off the rails nutty with our power usage.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

21 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Exactly. Since it's impossible to balance these abilities by output and keep such a diverse set of powers, then we need to approach the situation from the opposite angle. The universal input of energy isn't working, and it's making it too easy to not have to deal with the weaknesses of frames - especially since several older powers were explicitly designed so that limited availablity was their weakness. 

~Steve Sinclair, source Vivergate: Vent Radioactive Gas Y/n - Developer Workshop & Update Notes - Warframe Forums

This quote also points out the issue with a lack of balance, at least in Warframe's specific case - namely, non-interactive play.

 

Therefore, axe the universal input. Nerf or remove external source of energy where appropriate until a player is incapable of sustaining energy generation on external sources alone, and then compensate by increasing or introducing the ability to regenerate energy on a case-by-case basis. This can even be used to make less-valuable abilities more important, as if stronger powers cannot regenerate energy and only expend it, then frames can lean into their own gameplay loops - this can also make individual frames more distinctive.

Frames with more powerful abilities that are disruptive or a problem to have on all the time can then be made so that they simply cannot maintain their abilities, and must use them wisely, but this does not negatively impact frames with a lower output and more spammy abilities by design.

Closing energy loopholes doesn't mean nerfing energy input. If 4 players synergize to bring dethcube with energy generator, that's team synergy.....He also refers to PC players and their macros....which is a player issue and not a game issue....unless I'm mistaken and warframe comes with free third party programs as well? Oh it doesn't....thats the players using those....whereas on console, we press every button and make every move with our hands.....and that's the opposite of homers drinking bird. Is an EV Trin an energy loophole? I'll gladly buy another Trin Prime and build her specifically to spam my group with energy....so what're you gonna do then? We're using team synergy, right? 

You can try to nerf us all you want, we're still gonna spam and do whatever we want. Because the amount of frames and synergy available allows us to use our imagination to do so. 

Get rid of Trinity. Get rid of dethcube, and I'd love to see you get rid of zenurik, We'll find another way. And you'll still be back here upset that 4 humans broke your system. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Closing energy loopholes doesn't mean nerfing energy input.

Yes it does.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

Yes it does.

Cool, we'll still be able to utilize energy in the way you don't want us to. You'll have to deal with it.

[Krankbert]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Loza03:

Exactly. Since it's impossible to balance these abilities by output and keep such a diverse set of powers, then we need to approach the situation from the opposite angle. The universal input of energy isn't working, and it's making it too easy to not have to deal with the weaknesses of frames - especially since several older powers were explicitly designed so that limited availablity was their weakness. 

~Steve Sinclair, source Vivergate: Vent Radioactive Gas Y/n - Developer Workshop & Update Notes - Warframe Forums

This quote also points out the issue with a lack of balance, at least in Warframe's specific case - namely, non-interactive play.

Question: This quote is from 2014. Taking into account all that you know about how DE chose to develop the game over the following seven years, do you think that maybe Steve changed his mind?

[Loza03]

45 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You can try to nerf us all you want, we're still gonna spam and do whatever we want. Because the amount of frames and synergy available allows us to use our imagination to do so. 

Get rid of Trinity. Get rid of dethcube, and I'd love to see you get rid of zenurik, We'll find another way. And you'll still be back here upset that 4 humans broke your system. 

What's your point?

In so far as I'm aware this is just treating this whole thing as some kind of tribalist arms race. 'Us vs them', not discussion. It's you saying 'I don't care what you think'.

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Question: This quote is from 2014. Taking into account all that you know about how DE chose to develop the game over the following seven years, do you think that maybe Steve changed his mind?

Kind of?

We wouldn't see Zenurik 1.0 for over a year, let alone the easier-to-get, lower barrier to entry version we have today, and in general for some time energy wasn't necessarily easy to overcome - even if it could be. Leastways, that's the vibe I got when I first joined up - I still remember Brozime making a big deal of the Synoid mods since they could restore energy. And whilst frames were definitely designed to be more and more free to use their powers, I don't think they were actively designed with press-4-to-win in mind. Look at Protea - huge damage potential, sure, but she's honestly one of the few frames who feels designed for the energy economy we have with her main damage power having quite a few restrictions on it and pretty expensive to keep up. Ember's rework was also clearly intended to do something similar given how it axed World on Fire, although its degree of success is - well it's not even dubious it kind of failed to achieve that. Even Lavos's actual sustained DPS is relatively low when you crunch the numbers.

DE's design philosophy has certainly changed, but I don't think it's an intentional move towards 'no longer limiting players' as much as it is to a different way of viewing abilities - as a natural extension of a frame's gameplay loop, rather than an exception metered out by limited supply.  The issue lies in older frames which were still built with that older design philosophy - not dissimilar to how things like Armour weren't built for our current extremes or level ranges. That's why I suggest the case-by-case system I do - I'm trying to avoid invalidating that older design whilst still facilitating the newer one.

[Rakosta_Kai]

34 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Cool, we'll still be able to utilize energy in the way you don't want us to. You'll have to deal with it.

I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion given the fact that I haven't said how I would want you to use energy to begin with...

Here is what you do know:

That energy, as a limiting mechanic, is irrelevant...

That the Devs have stated they don't like the fact that energy, as a limiting mechanic, hasn't proven to be effective to its' purpose any longer...

 

That said,  IF DE ever decides to close energy loopholes it would be a nerf to energy input (and quite possibly output too). 

I'm not sure how you managed to arrive at any other conclusions given that is literally what  "closing a loophole" means...

 

Y'know? It's a hole? Designed to bypass a restriction?... When you close it then you can't bypass the restriction anymore?

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

29 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

What's your point?

In so far as I'm aware this is just treating this whole thing as some kind of tribalist arms race. 'Us vs them', not discussion. It's you saying 'I don't care what you think'.

I'm saying you're not actually gonna be satisfied with whatever change is made, as there will still be people out there playing the game in a way you don't feel is right. You don't want people in public matches outplaying you in anyway. So for that to happen, we would have to basically give everyone 50 energy, 0.5 sprint speed, and have no range mods. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

11 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion given the fact that I haven't said how I would want you to use energy to begin with...

Here is what you do know:

That energy, as a limiting mechanic, is irrelevant...

That the Devs have stated they don't like the fact that energy, as a limiting mechanic, hasn't proven to be effective to its' purpose any longer...

 

That said,  IF DE ever decides to close energy loopholes it would be a nerf to energy input (and quite possibly output too). 

I'm not sure how you managed to arrive at any other conclusions given that is literally what  "closing a loophole" means...

 

Y'know? It's a hole? Designed to bypass a restriction?... When you close it then you can't bypass the restriction anymore?

 

And when all loopholes are closed we'll still find a way to bypass whatever it is you think we shouldn't do.

[Rakosta_Kai]

29 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Question: This quote is from 2014. Taking into account all that you know about how DE chose to develop the game over the following seven years, do you think that maybe Steve changed his mind?

I know this isn't addressed to me but the route they took instead seemed to be adding the removal mechanics to mobs instead...Which they seem to have begun reducing in the last year or so.

To me,  it seems like they are gating aspects of the newer content behind other limiting mechanics besides just energy now. 

So, I wouldn't say minds have changed so much as approaches might be.

[Krankbert]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Padre_Akais:

I know this isn't addressed to me but the route they took instead seemed to be adding the removal mechanics to mobs instead...Which they seem to have begun reducing in the last year or so.

To me,  it seems like they are gating aspects of the newer content behind other limiting mechanics besides just energy now. 

So, I wouldn't say minds have changed so much as approaches might be.

The point of that rhetorical question was: This is clearly not how Warframe has been designed in the following years, so why should I give that quote more weight than the guy himself did.

I've played builds in numerous other games where ability use was highly restricted, but the abilities were very powerful to compensate. One thing they all had in common was how boring they were.

[Rakosta_Kai]

Just now, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

And when all loopholes are closed we'll still find a way to bypass whatever it is you think we shouldn't do.

You are Super Jumping to the wrong conclusion little buddy...

It's not about what I think you shouldn't do— It's about what I know you won't do...

That would be: As much.

You won't do as much of whatever it is you are doing with energy now because you won't have as much energy to do it with.

Again, that is literally the result of a closed loophole.

[Loza03]

Just now, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I'm saying you're not actually gonna be satisfied with whatever change is made, as there will still be people out there playing the game in a way you don't feel is right. You don't want people in public matches outplaying you in anyway. So for that to happen, we would have to basically give everyone 50 energy, 0.5 sprint speed, and have no range mods. 

Really? Personal attacks?

Look, if that's where this is going, then we're clearly done here.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Just now, Padre_Akais said:

You are Super Jumping to the wrong conclusion little buddy...

It's not about what I think you shouldn't do— It's about what I know you won't do...

That would be: As much.

You won't do as much of whatever it is you are doing with energy now because you won't have as much energy to do it with.

Again, that is literally the result of a closed loophole.

I'll still do as much of whatever I want until such changes are made, and then I'll find a way to do as much afterwards as well.

I just don't think you should have the choice to tell me or other players what to do. Other people should have the freedom to spam if they want. And I hope they spam away until a change is made.

[Rakosta_Kai]

17 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

The point of that rhetorical question was: This is clearly not how Warframe has been designed in the following years, so why should I give that quote more weight than the guy himself did.

I've played builds in numerous other games where ability use was highly restricted, but the abilities were very powerful to compensate. One thing they all had in common was how boring they were.

Fair enough. 

I apologize for responding to a rhetorical question and will leave you to whatever conclusions you have arrived at instead.

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I'll still do as much of whatever I want until such changes are made, and then I'll find a way to do as much afterwards as well.

I just don't think you should have the choice to tell me or other players what to do. Other people should have the freedom to spam if they want. And I hope they spam away until a change is made.

I haven't told you what you should or shouldn't do... Because, with respect,  I don't care about you or whatever it is that you do daily.

All that feel/felt doesn't change the fact that what you have stated is both functionally and factually incorrect...

"Less" is "Less"...

"Less" = "not as much"...

"Less" does not mean "as much"

I'm not sure how you've arrived at all these extra conclusions regarding what I think and haven't one clue why you've decided to play martyr.

Likewise, I genuinely don't care what you get up to in missions as I won't ever run them with you...

That said, I do know for certain you will get up to less of it if DE ever decided to close loopholes in the energy mechanic.

Because "Less" is "Less".

 

 

[D3thpool]

That after all these years, the game still lacks proper explanations or even barebone introductions/tutorials for way too much things.I've recently came back after taking a break for over a year & there i am sitting again, shifting through the wiki in hope for some directions.

I didn't even get into operator/arcanes/eidolon hunting/kuva liches so far as it appears to be pretty overwhelming for someone with not even a lick of familiarity.Which kind of bothers me but well.

It would/could go a LONG way if the game would give players a basic rundown/tutorial of content like mentioned before & dont force the player to rely on youtube guides & the wiki to even get a basic grasp of the mechanics & requirements.