The Colossal Misunderstanding of "Press E to Win"

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

When is a single target weapon ever viable outside of a few very specific encounters where you cant use anything else really? And even in those few cases the gunblades are replacing them.

Are you under the impression that you're supposed to use 1 weapon for the entire mission? Your arsenal consists of a primary weapon, secondary weapon and melee weapon. A player is able to switch between these 3 things at will.

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Are you under the impression that you're supposed to use 1 weapon for the entire mission? Your arsenal consists of a primary weapon, secondary weapon and melee weapon. A player is able to switch between these 3 things at will.

That didnt answer my question, and forcing yourself to use a single target weapon "just because" doesnt magically make it viable. I mainly melee and when I feel like it I pull off some shots with my "AoE" secondary that also fullfills the role of single target at the same time. Why would I ever pull out a dedicated single target ranged weapon?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

38 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That didnt answer my question, and forcing yourself to use a single target weapon "just because" doesnt magically make it viable. I mainly melee and when I feel like it I pull off some shots with my "AoE" secondary that also fullfills the role of single target at the same time. Why would I ever pull out a dedicated single target ranged weapon?

Because it's a really easy game? 

Why would you not? 

If I get a riven for a single target weapon and want try it out, why would it matter? 

I'm not running missions for loot so for some people we're just playing for actual fun. 

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Because it's a really easy game? 

Why would you not? 

If I get a riven for a single target weapon and want try it out, why would it matter? 

I'm not running missions for loot so for some people we're just playing for actual fun. 

That makes them valid how exactly? 

While you may not run missions for loot and instead just play for fun, it doesnt change if weapons are valid or not in the bigger picture. These types of games are about making perfect builds for many, to maximize farming efficiency, it doesnt matter if it is Diablo, WF, Anthem, Outriders, PoE, Grim Dawn or Borderlands, min-max is the end goal to a large crowd of the players. As I said, there isnt any content in the game where people would bring a single target gun because it is a strong option, we bring single target guns to content where we have no other options, which fades out more and more as gunblades get added. People may bring single target guns because they find them fun though, and dont really care if they go slower.

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That makes them valid how exactly? 

While you may not run missions for loot and instead just play for fun, it doesnt change if weapons are valid or not in the bigger picture. These types of games are about making perfect builds for many, to maximize farming efficiency, it doesnt matter if it is Diablo, WF, Anthem, Outriders, PoE, Grim Dawn or Borderlands, min-max is the end goal to a large crowd of the players. As I said, there isnt any content in the game where people would bring a single target gun because it is a strong option, we bring single target guns to content where we have no other options, which fades out more and more as gunblades get added. People may bring single target guns because they find them fun though, and dont really care if they go slower.

 

It makes them valid because the game is for everyone, not just meta followers....it doesn't matter whether you're a large crowd or not....or else the weapons would have simply been deleted from the game by now. If you can't use them then don't use them.

[Loza03]

14 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Because it's a really easy game? 

Why would you not? 

If I get a riven for a single target weapon and want try it out, why would it matter? 

I'm not running missions for loot so for some people we're just playing for actual fun. 

Even playing for fun, the game frequently discourages you mechanically. Not hitting multiple targets leaves you vulnerable to attack from other enemies if you're trying to run and gun, which matters a lot especially in newer areas with higher power enemies, which usually have higher spawn rates or less room to maneuver. If we're judging based on a weapon's 'base' performance (which makes sense, as Warframe abilities would also affect AoE or Melee), single target weapons, even those capable of reasonable times to kill at Steel Path Level like Cernos Prime or some of the Shotguns, are simply not able to keep up with AoE weapons which frequently have a similar or greater time to kill on any individual enemy, but can stun and/or kill multiple with every attack.

This means that single-target weapons leave you more open to damage and make it easier for you to be overwhelmed, with no meaningful upsides for using them in exchange. It's worth noting that most of my favourite weapons are primarily single-target ones, by the way, so I'm speaking from experience on this.

Why would someone anywhere between the two extremes of 'play exclusively for fun' or 'play exclusively for min-maxed progression' play something which is less powerful, less efficient, and arguably less fun since WF's current balance for enemies at high levels more or less necessitates constant dominance?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

Even playing for fun, the game frequently discourages you mechanically. Not hitting multiple targets leaves you vulnerable to attack from other enemies if you're trying to run and gun, which matters a lot especially in newer areas with higher power enemies, which usually have higher spawn rates or less room to maneuver. If we're judging based on a weapon's 'base' performance (which makes sense, as Warframe abilities would also affect AoE or Melee), single target weapons, even those capable of reasonable times to kill at Steel Path Level like Cernos Prime or some of the Shotguns, are simply not able to keep up with AoE weapons which frequently have a similar or greater time to kill on any individual enemy, but can stun and/or kill multiple with every attack.

This means that single-target weapons leave you more open to damage and make it easier for you to be overwhelmed, with no meaningful upsides for using them in exchange. It's worth noting that most of my favourite weapons are primarily single-target ones, by the way, so I'm speaking from experience on this.

Why would someone anywhere between the two extremes of 'play exclusively for fun' or 'play exclusively for min-maxed progression' play something which is less powerful, less efficient, and arguably less fun since WF's current balance for enemies at high levels more or less necessitates constant dominance?

That's what CC and Magus Lockdown are for, if needed. Only an inexperienced player would stand there and let someone shoot at them. You can also bullet jump and shoot while aim gliding. 

As I said before, you're on a wide battlefield and control the environment and where the spawns go. You also control the 3 weapons you switch between and your entire arsenal. If you need to only use 1 weapon an entire mission you're more than welcome to.

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

That's what CC and Magus Lockdown are for, if needed. Only an inexperienced player would stand there and let someone shoot at them.

Ok, but AoE weapons get that too. If we're judging weapons it should be on their base performance, not using outside factors that everything has equal access to, especially when the other weapons don't need those outside factors.

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You can also bullet jump and shoot while aim gliding. 

This disproportionately affects Precision weapons since... well, they need to be fired precisely. Trying aim to for a small target (the enemies head) whilst both of you are moving in different directions at different speeds is an incredibly difficult thing to do. AoE weapons (with some exceptions) are far easier to use for high-speed run-and-gun, and they are more effective whilst doing so for the aforementioned reasons.

8 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

As I said before, you're on a wide battlefield and control the environment and where the spawns go.

Not always. Many rooms in Warframe are quite small, and you also frequently don't have any control over the spawns. You do in survival based on your location, sure, but the majority game modes will require you to travel to or lock you into particular areas which may not have these characteristics.

10 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You also control the 3 weapons you switch between and your entire arsenal. If you need to only use 1 weapon an entire mission you're more than welcome to.

That's exactly the point. There's a ton of weapons in Warframe which are more than sufficient for the entire mission on their own, because they achieve all the roles that a weapon would need to and can be easily sustained. Combine this with the abysmal base switch speed, and there's genuinely no reason to bring any single-target weapon, except for preferring it (which again, I do) and the game's recent design trends frequently lean more and more away from doing that.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Ok, but AoE weapons get that too. If we're judging weapons it should be on their base performance, not using outside factors that everything has equal access to, especially when the other weapons don't need those outside factors.

This disproportionately affects Precision weapons since... well, they need to be fired precisely. Trying aim to for a small target (the enemies head) whilst both of you are moving in different directions at different speeds is an incredibly difficult thing to do. AoE weapons (with some exceptions) are far easier to use for high-speed run-and-gun, and they are more effective whilst doing so for the aforementioned reasons.

Not always. Many rooms in Warframe are quite small, and you also frequently don't have any control over the spawns. You do in survival based on your location, sure, but the majority game modes will require you to travel to or lock you into particular areas which may not have these characteristics.

That's exactly the point. There's a ton of weapons in Warframe which are more than sufficient for the entire mission on their own, because they achieve all the roles that a weapon would need to and can be easily sustained. Combine this with the abysmal base switch speed, and there's genuinely no reason to bring any single-target weapon, except for preferring it (which again, I do) and the game's recent design trends frequently lean more and more away from doing that.

Cool. Like I said, different playstyles. The game's under no obligation to cater to "muh efficiency" players even though they do well enough. We're getting a weapon buff and many aoe weapons have recently been released. You're gonna be fine.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

This disproportionately affects Precision weapons since... well, they need to be fired precisely. Trying aim to for a small target (the enemies head) whilst both of you are moving in different directions at different speeds is an incredibly difficult thing to do.

It also negatively effects Spray & Pray weapons too imo, since those rely on multiple hits (even not to the head) to deal consistent DPS.

There's legitimately no point in aim gliding and shooting something the Quellor for example because the number of shots needed to kill something would borderline require a lock-on system to hit while moving at high speeds.

Planting your feet to aim, especially as enemies get stronger quickly becomes suicidal unless you're playing a frame that doesn't care about getting hit.

[Loza03]

26 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Cool. Like I said, different playstyles. The game's under no obligation to cater to "muh efficiency" players even though they do well enough. We're getting a weapon buff and many aoe weapons have recently been released. You're gonna be fine.

And if I want to use precision weapons, and also not feel like I'm wasting my time?

"For fun" and "For efficiency" are not mutually exclusive playstyles, and I'd go so far as to suggest most people fall somewhere between the two extremes. I'd not be surprised if many people who'd normally find them fun are displeased as well, since being curb-stomped by higher level enemies isn't usually very fun.

 

42 minutes ago, Aldain said:

It also negatively effects Spray & Pray weapons too imo, since those rely on multiple hits (even not to the head) to deal consistent DPS.

There's legitimately no point in aim gliding and shooting something the Quellor for example because the number of shots needed to kill something would borderline require a lock-on system to hit while moving at high speeds.

Planting your feet to aim, especially as enemies get stronger quickly becomes suicidal unless you're playing a frame that doesn't care about getting hit.

That's a good point as well, yes, although it's a little easier since they're usually a bit less reliant on headshots, so the target's a bit bigger. But, yeah, bullet hoses have their own issues too. Ultimately pretty similar boat though - single target/light unit shredders that are simply flat inferior to AoE which does their job, and more but better.

[Aldain]

14 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And if I want to use precision weapons, and also not feel like I'm wasting my time?

"Play a different game" I'd guess would be their response.

Because apparently that's entirely impossible in Warframe. /s

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

And if I want to use precision weapons, and also not feel like I'm wasting my time?

"For fun" and "For efficiency" are not mutually exclusive playstyles, and I'd go so far as to suggest most people fall somewhere between the two extremes. I'd not be surprised if many people who'd normally find them fun are displeased as well, since being curb-stomped by higher level enemies isn't usually very fun.

 

That's a good point as well, yes, although it's a little easier since they're usually a bit less reliant on headshots, so the target's a bit bigger. But, yeah, bullet hoses have their own issues too. Ultimately pretty similar boat though - single target/light unit shredders that are simply flat inferior to AoE which does their job, and more but better.

Than wait for the weapon update like everyone else? If anyone is getting completely wrecked in this game, they need more practice, to use teammates, a better build, to move around more etc. 

And even if you die once, you have 5 revives, it's not a big deal. Failure is a part of success.

[Loza03]

48 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Than wait for the weapon update like everyone else? If anyone is getting completely wrecked in this game, they need more practice, to use teammates, a better build, to move around more etc. 

I am waiting for the weapon update. I just have concerns based on what's already been said and recent trends in Warframe's design, so I give feedback.

Besides, my whole point is a 'better build' too often means 'stop playing the way you like with the weapons you want because there's no place for them', and 'use teammates' often means 'get carried because one player is usually way stronger than everyone else making your involvement pointless, if you can contribute in the first place'.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I am waiting for the weapon update. I just have concerns based on what's already been said and recent trends in Warframe's design, so I give feedback.

Besides, my whole point is a 'better build' too often means 'stop playing the way you like with the weapons you want because there's no place for them', and 'use teammates' often means 'get carried because one player is usually way stronger than everyone else making your involvement pointless, if you can contribute in the first place'.

Well life is unfair sometimes. If you want to take pistols to Steel path and wipe the map, wait for the weapon update, then get some rivens, strip some armor, use pistol and primary arcanes, and use ammo efficiency with Harrow or Gauss etc etc. 

Maybe try to find some semblance of fun in the mean time.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Well life is unfair sometimes. If you want to take pistols to Steel path and wipe the map, wait for the weapon update, then get some rivens, strip some armor, use pistol and primary arcanes, and use ammo efficiency with Harrow or Gauss etc etc. 

'Life is unfair sometimes'.

If your only defence is 'that's the way things are', then frankly that's not a defence at all. You're literally just trying to shut down dissent.

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Maybe try to find some semblance of fun in the mean time.

Believe me, I do try. A lot of my feedback is reporting on my findings.

[Zimzala]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That makes them valid how exactly? 

"Valid"?

If the weaponry kills pixels then it's 'valid'.

Are you expecting some 'higher authority' to come in and 'bless' things?

You sound like you are trying to ascribe 'moral' judgements on weapons in a video game before using them?

Just because some players don't like a weapon, just because some players are unable to 'just have fun' does not make weaponry 'invalid'.

What a load of crap, just another, 'if it is not the best it is not worth using' argument.

Valid and Perfect Efficiency are not even close to being the same things.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

You're literally just trying to shut down dissent.

I mean that's what this thread and the last thread by the original OP were about, so it isn't really surprising.

Still will never get over "Look the Kuva Tonkor works on Steel Path Mot, guns are fine!" thing from before.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

'Life is unfair sometimes'.

If your only defence is 'that's the way things are', then frankly that's not a defence at all. You're literally just trying to shut down dissent.

Believe me, I do try. A lot of my feedback is reporting on my findings.

Ok....what else would you like me to do? Be your ambassador and rail against DE? Maybe fly to Canada and make a protest sign? 

Go to feedback if it's such an issue for you.

Like I said, the people that make the game have lives....they already acknowledged the gap between melee and weapons. How do you think humans typically respond to people telling them to "work faster"? Go ahead and try it out and let me know how it goes.

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

then get some rivens, strip some armor, use pistol and primary arcanes, and use ammo efficiency with Harrow or Gauss etc etc. 

The problem is exactly this, though. Most melee weapons, most AoE weapons and most nuke abilities don't need all this to be efficient, while all single target weapons do just to be barely viable, and they are still beaten by unbuffed AoE. That is why some rebalancing is needed, a whole playstyle is completely worthless, and 80% of primary/secondary weapons belong to that playstyle. 

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Ok....what else would you like me to do? Be your ambassador and rail against DE? Maybe fly to Canada and make a protest sign? 

Go to feedback if it's such an issue for you.

Like I said, the people that make the game have lives....they already acknowledged the gap between melee and weapons. How do you think humans typically respond to people telling them to "work faster"? Go ahead and try it out and let me know how it goes.

Petty insults, dubiously related to what's been said...

Sounds like we're done here.

11 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I mean that's what this thread and the last thread by the original OP were about, so it isn't really surprising.

Still will never get over "Look the Kuva Tonkor works on Steel Path Mot, guns are fine!" thing from before.

Honestly, it just makes me sad when things devolve into stuff like. There's been great improvements made off of good feedback and healthy discussion. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

10 minutes ago, (XBOX)ShonFr0st said:

The problem is exactly this, though. Most melee weapons, most AoE weapons and most nuke abilities don't need all this to be efficient, while all single target weapons do just to be barely viable, and they are still beaten by unbuffed AoE. That is why some rebalancing is needed, a whole playstyle is completely worthless, and 80% of primary/secondary weapons belong to that playstyle. 

For what enemy level? I had to put 4+ forma, rivens, and use frame synergy to make my explosive weapons viable for Steel path. 

You can go take a 1 forma Bramma to SP Mot right now and it's not wiping the map....

[Zimzala]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Petty insults, dubiously related to what's been said...

Sounds like we're done here.

Honestly, it just makes me sad when things devolve into stuff like. There's been great improvements made off of good feedback and healthy discussion. 

Sure, but as always, the thoughts of the posters only go so far.

The game cannot be re-designed in a forum thread, it's silly to think there will even be a consensus among players.

After all the thoughts are presented and the circular arguments about which plan is 'correct' or 'right' or 'morally acceptable', all that's left is to argue about Who and Why those thoughts were presented.

Without a developer coming into each of these threads and giving some kind of 'we saw it, be at peace' post, what else is going to happen to posters that think they have to keep posting to 'save WF'?

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

40 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

'Life is unfair sometimes'.

If your only defence is 'that's the way things are', then frankly that's not a defence at all. You're literally just trying to shut down dissent.

I mean, do you know who you’re talking to? It’s literally his MO. I applaud you for trying but your efforts are futile.

[Cloud]

if you want to nerf melee, the only thing which you really need to do is remove blood rush and weeping wounds and cap melee combo counter to 3x. Done. You don't need to touch anything else.