Trinity rework?

[Kruppuchino]

I don't really play Trinity all that much but i feel like it's just sad to see a frame with such a cool prime being left in the dust. She doesn't have any abilities aside from Link that deal damage, and even then Link doesn't even deal direct damage and has such a smal duration that you might as well not use it.

My fixes for a possible rework would be to buff Link's damage a little bit and make it last longer.

Combine Well of Life and Energy Vampire to be 1 ability and have it not be enemy targeted, but have it work in the same vein as Oberon by having it be a toggle ability, sacrificing your energy to heal others and give them health and energy (maybe if you press the button you give allies in x amount of range energy and if you hold the button it could be the channeling version that works similar to Renewal).

Have Blessing give a damage and defensive buff to allies that lasts a bit longer.

Add 1 fairly easy to use damaging move so that she can defend herself in solo missions. It could be something like Zephyr's Turbulence except reducing incoming damage to trintiy while dealing a moderate amount of damage in her area, similar to World on Fire from pre rework Ember.

Again i'm not a Trinity main at all but it's just sad to see a frame that can look so cool be left in the dust when it comes to general use.

[MollAgdeduba]

Ok... if you think link is her best ability, probably you don't know how trinity work and wich possibilities you have with her.

But reading your post i understand the problem... really... the problem is people that don't understand that not every warframe should be an AOE nuke. She's a support, and one of the best support. She heal, regen energy & add defence buff.

But people don't like support in this game... oh well... they like, but just when are other people to use them, so the "Th!s U0rfRaMe is Cr4P CaUsE H4s NO nUK3" people could easy nuke the map.

[Teridax68]

I can agree Trinity could be given a bit more damage potential, given that one can easily swap out one of her abilities for a nuke or steroid, and I can also agree very much with making her ability durations last longer, but I don't think her Blessing needs more stuff attached to it, really, plus I think there's a degree of redundancy between her 1 and 4 (healing), as well as her 3 and 4 (damage reduction) that ought to be addressed. I also think making her steroids mostly duration-based is a bit of a missed opportunity given how her Energy Vampire allows her to bypass the usual limitations of continuous drains.

With this in mind, my thoughts on how I'd like to change her:

• Change her passive so that it no longer speeds up revival, but instead lets her revive allies from much farther away.
• Change her 1 and rename it to Well of Death: instead of life steal, the target continually damages nearby enemies, increased based on the damage the affected target receives.
• Rework her 2 so that it:
  • Costs no Energy to cast.
  • Only gives Energy when the target dies.
  • Spreads to the nearest target for the remainder of its duration upon the target's death, prioritizing enemies affected by Well of Death, then Link.
• Rework Link:
  • Make it a continuous ability with an Energy drain affected by Duration and Efficiency (and which would still allow Energy restoration through Energy Vampire).
  • Allow Trinity to manually select as many targets as she wants to Link to by tapping targets at no cap, with each link increasing the drain. Hold-cast should unlink from all targets.
  • Keep its base damage reduction, but allow both it and its damage reflection to scale with Strength, with the DR capped at 90%.
  • Allow all damage and status dealt to any linked targets to be spread to other linked enemies.
  • Have the reflected damage also scale with enemy level in addition to Strength, so that it's always meaningful.
  • Allow Trinity to link to allies and give them the same status immunity + damage reduction.
• Remove Blessing's damage reduction. If we want to get fancy, have it grant a bonus to health and shields based on the target's missing health and shields before they were affected (the more they were missing, the greater the bonus).

And that I think would likely be my ideal Trinity. More versatile and smoother to play, with a bit more damage potential, while still being focused on protection and resource restoration.

[Kruppuchino]

6 hours ago, MollAgdeduba said:

Ok... if you think link is her best ability, probably you don't know how trinity work and wich possibilities you have with her.

But reading your post i understand the problem... really... the problem is people that don't understand that not every warframe should be an AOE nuke. She's a support, and one of the best support. She heal, regen energy & add defence buff.

But people don't like support in this game... oh well... they like, but just when are other people to use them, so the "Th!s U0rfRaMe is Cr4P CaUsE H4s NO nUK3" people could easy nuke the map.

Look i'm not trying to turn Trinity into another nuke frame. I'm just trying to give a concept on how to change her so that she can keep up with the modern condition of warframe.

[Reitrix]

48 minutes ago, ReekitoMagnifico said:

Look i'm not trying to turn Trinity into another nuke frame. I'm just trying to give a concept on how to change her so that she can keep up with the modern condition of warframe.

The problem with Trinity is not Trinity. It's the nature of our damage intake. 

Warframes have one of two states. 

- Dead

- Immortal (Shield gate, eHP tank, immunity buttons etc)

You are either immune to damage or outright dead. 

So you either die too fast to be saved or you're immune to damage and don't need to be healed. 

Every frame is also perfectly capable of keeping it's own Energy topped off thanks to Pads, Arcanes and Zenurik.

So why bring a support? 

CC Frames have the same issue. The best CC is death. Why spend energy to stop a mob when another frame can  spend the same amount and kill the entire room?

We need to have damage (Incoming and outgoing) overhauled to make supports worthwhile. 

[NinjaZeku]

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Rework Link:

• Make it a continuous ability with an Energy drain affected by Duration and Efficiency (and which would still allow Energy restoration through Energy Vampire).

Yes please.

Having to recast a protective buff every 12 seconds (at base) is just such a ridiculous state of things.

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Allow Trinity to manually select

Eh, dunno 'bout that tho, it being an automatic / passive thing, and not least, for 3 targets because TRINITY and all that, works well enough IMO.

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

• • Allow Trinity to link to allies and give them the same status immunity + damage reduction.
• Remove Blessing's damage reduction.

I assume the ally linking is also done manually?

Because that ... just doesn't work in a high-mobility game like Warframe, your Squad is ninja-flipping wildly all over the place,
targeted buffs are incompatible with that, not least evidenced in how Augments like Smite Infusion have finally been changed to an AOE.

And in turn removing the protection aspect from Blessing, why? Just for the sake of changing stuff?
Blessing DR being a non-LOS, not-Range-Mods-bound buff works just fine.

Seems to me you're making a support Frame more of a hassle to use in regards to supporting your Squad. I don't like that.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

On 2021-04-08 at 4:14 AM, ReekitoMagnifico said:

She doesn't have any abilities aside from Link that deal damage, and even then Link doesn't even deal direct damage and has such a smal duration that you might as well not use it.

Wait, why does the healer frame need more damaging abilities? She's a support frame, that's her entire theme. If you wanted to rework her, and I agree she really needs one, you need to focus on making a frame that makes support fun and effective, without copy-pasting Harrow.

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Eh, dunno 'bout that tho, it being an automatic / passive thing, and not least, for 3 targets because TRINITY and all that, works well enough IMO.

I assume the ally linking is also done manually?

Because that ... just doesn't work in a high-mobility game like Warframe, your Squad is ninja-flipping wildly all over the place,
targeted buffs are incompatible with that, not least evidenced in how Augments like Smite Infusion have finally been changed to an AOE.

Nidus's Parasitic Link, Gara's Splinter Storm, and the Amesha's Watchful Swarm all disprove your assertion here, as they are all targeted buffs that work perfectly fine in Warframe's hypermobile environment due to generous targeting. I can agree that having to precisely target enemies need not be made necessary, and Trinity could probably just be made to tap 3 to link to the nearest unlinked target in range regardless of where she's pointing, but targeting allies itself I think is fine, assuming the ability is allowed to link to them even when not aiming precisely at them.

Quote

And in turn removing the protection aspect from Blessing, why? Just for the sake of changing stuff?

As per the earlier part of my post, Trinity has two 75% DR steroids on her kit, which creates redundancy when she could just have a single damage reduction effect instead. Additionally, it's one of the reasons why she often feels annoying to play, as she's incentivized to constantly refresh the buff on its short base duration. If you believe I am removing the "protection aspect" from Blessing when I am leaving its heal untouched, then I don't think you necessarily understand what makes Blessing so strong.

Quote

Blessing DR being a non-LOS, not-Range-Mods-bound buff works just fine.

No, it doesn't, it just makes Trinity want to mindlessly spam the effect for its DR instead of using it for the potentially much more interesting effect of saving people's lives through healing. I don't get how you can say this in one breath:

2 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Yes please.

Having to recast a protective buff every 12 seconds (at base) is just such a ridiculous state of things.

Then complain about how I'm taking out a protective buff that needs to be recast every 10 seconds at base in the next.

Quote

Seems to me you're making a support Frame more of a hassle to use in regards to supporting your Squad. I don't like that.

More of a hassle... how? Her Energy generator ability would cost no Energy, her Link would be made to last forever and could be attached to allies, and she'd no longer be pushed to spam Blessing in order to be effective, just use it whenever she feels like a teammate needs healing. She'd be far less spammy and constrained, and would be able to contribute to her team more effectively and in more ways.

[continue]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

As per the earlier part of my post, Trinity has two 75% DR steroids on her kit, which creates redundancy when she could just have a single damage reduction effect instead. Additionally, it's one of the reasons why she often feels annoying to play, as she's incentivized to constantly refresh the buff on its short base duration. If you believe I am removing the "protection aspect" from Blessing when I am leaving its heal untouched, then I don't think you necessarily understand what makes Blessing so strong.

having multiple DR sources that are affected by different modifiers does give her more build variety though. you could forego link for pool of life + health conversion and trade range in for duration, for example. or you could dump duration and max range, relying on pool of life and vampire leech, which also works well with marked for death. changing link to be the source of both personal and team DR overcentralizes her kit, imo. 

blessing is stronger in the modern day because it can refresh shieldgating, but it has gone through iterations that were not so useful, one of those being scaling the DR based on the percentage of health healed. the DR in that iteration was extremely situational because you couldn't get high DR reliably without your teammate dying, so you still ended up just spamming it to heal. DR and heals synergize with each other because DR increases the amount of EHP you've received, and that synergy is what makes blessing strong. even if you move the DR to link, you aren't changing the need to refresh DR buffs on allies to increase blessing's effectiveness. you're just making it a two-step process instead of one, which is why people are pointing out that it's more of a hassle. not necessarily true in the full gameplay context, as most people play with link permanently on anyways, but still worth considering. i probably would never use blessing over vampire leech again, because it has multiple functions in one action, and there's no value in dumping range anymore

[Teridax68]

25 minutes ago, continue said:

having multiple DR sources that are affected by different modifiers does give her more build variety though. you could forego link for pool of life + health conversion and trade range in for duration, for example. or you could dump duration and max range, relying on pool of life and vampire leech, which also works well with marked for death. changing link to be the source of both personal and team DR overcentralizes her kit, imo. 

This all sounds very nice in theory, but translates to nothing in practice. Historically Trinity has mainly had only two major builds, one focused on Duration for Blessing, and the other dumping on Duration for EV. Pool of Life + Health Conversion is an expensive build that requires Trinity's worst ability to provide a benefit that is ultimately far inferior to the DR from Link, and dumping Duration messes up both of Trinity's DR steroids simultaneously. I don't see how making only one ability provide DR "overcentralizes her kit" any more than any other one buff from an ally frame, especially since all of her other abilities would provide their own distinct functionality as well.

25 minutes ago, continue said:

blessing is stronger in the modern day because it can refresh shieldgating, but it has gone through iterations that were not so useful, one of those being scaling the DR based on the percentage of health healed. the DR in that iteration was extremely situational because you couldn't get high DR reliably without your teammate dying, so you still ended up just spamming it to heal.

This assessment is entirely wrong; Blessing today is severely nerfed compared to its previous iterations, especially as it used to have global range. The DR based on the percentage of health healed had to be removed because it was far too strong, allowing Trinity to equip self-harming weapons and abuse them to give her entire team 99% DR.

25 minutes ago, continue said:

DR and heals synergize with each other because DR increases the amount of EHP you've received, and that synergy is what makes blessing strong.

The DR does not need to come with the healing for that synergy to exist, and Blessing is strong not because of its DR (75% is nothing special in a game full of 90% DR steroids and Harrow's 4, which provides total invulnerability), but because it's a spammable full team heal from a massive range. It can single-handedly save teammates for death, and has been made easier to use now that shield gating prevents most teammates from getting one-shot.

25 minutes ago, continue said:

even if you move the DR to link, you aren't changing the need to refresh DR buffs on allies to increase blessing's effectiveness. you're just making it a two-step process instead of one, which is why people are pointing out that it's more of a hassle. 

Refresh which buff, pray tell? Because Link as I've presented it isn't a timed buff, it's a permanent buff that drains Energy continuously, so you wouldn't have to constantly refresh it on teammates. Your assessment is also ignorant of the manner Trinity currently uses her abilities, which is just as much of a two-step process when she refreshes both Link and Blessing in succession. As with the single other person pointing out the "hassle", you complain about one thing ("overcentralizing" Trinity's kit by moving her DR to one ability) and then its opposite (separating Trinity's DR from her healing and thereby decentralizing her 4) in the same post, which is a bit confusing.

[continue]

38 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This all sounds very nice in theory, but translates to nothing in practice.

i use those builds, though. they perform perfectly fine in sortia and steel path and provide different utility than the generic build, which is the point of build variety. while most people simply use trinity for its generic use case, these options are open to everyone if they look for them.

38 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

a benefit that is ultimately far inferior to the DR from Link

adding 1350 armor is equivalent to 76% damage reduction on trinity

38 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This assessment is entirely wrong; Blessing today is severely nerfed compared to its previous iterations, especially as it used to have global range. The DR based on the percentage of health healed had to be removed because it was far too strong, allowing Trinity to equip self-harming weapons and abuse them to give her entire team 99% DR.

that it had an exploit related to self-damage doesn't change its ineffectiveness when used normally. the argument still applies. furthermore, that was *after* the quick thinking nerf, so you had to bring specially modded castanas to do it, and do it rather frequently, as you've noted.

38 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The DR does not need to come with the healing for that synergy to exist, and Blessing is strong not because of its DR (75% is nothing special in a game full of 90% DR steroids and Harrow's 4, which provides total invulnerability), but because it's a spammable full team heal from a massive range. It can single-handedly save teammates for death, and has been made easier to use now that shield gating prevents most teammates from getting one-shot.

that the DR is not large compared to many others which are arguably overkill is irrelevant. it is sufficient to be non-negligible in the vast majority of content. if you limit the DR range to that of link, you'll find that the heal is less effective at keeping allies alive, though not as less effective as it used to be, thanks to shieldgating, as i've noted.

38 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Refresh which buff, pray tell? Because Link as I've presented it isn't a timed buff, it's a permanent buff that drains Energy continuously, so you wouldn't have to constantly refresh it on teammates. Your assessment is also ignorant of the manner Trinity currently uses her abilities, which is just as much of a two-step process when she refreshes both Link and Blessing in succession. As with the single other person pointing out the "hassle", you complain about one thing ("overcentralizing" Trinity's kit by moving her DR to one ability) and then its opposite (separating Trinity's DR from her healing and thereby decentralizing her 4) in the same post, which is a bit confusing.

you're taking this a bit far with the ad-hominem. i specifically noted that while people may point it out as more of a hassle, it really isn't since *most* people play with link and blessing permanently active. there is no contradiction between noting that link is overcentralized in your version and accepting blessing's current state. as you've pointed out, blessing in its current state has equal usage with link by most players. if you were to implement your changes, it would have far less usage than link. 

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

IMO her only issue link is too short vs so many other frames survivability, and should have some kind of auto refresh - like if its active, and you cast blessing, it renews (like gara splinter storm, is frozen like when vast untime is cast).

There are so many ways to heal, damage mitigation, and regen energy that are more efficient, her utility is reduced to the rare scenarios where insta-heal is actually needed.  

I don't think she needs any dps buffs - just QoL - more duration on her link - either via toggled ability, longer duration, or auto refresh when casting some other abilities.

 

 

[Teridax68]

17 minutes ago, continue said:

i use those builds, though

That's fine, but does not counter the fact that you are attempting to make a general case out of the specific. It also does not prevent the fact that the build you are using is inefficient for the goal you are attempting to achieve (presumably durability), nor does it negate the fact that both Link and Blessing's damage reduction are duration-based steroids whose effectiveness is largely independent of range, and are only differentiated by Blessing requiring an extra 50% Power Strength to be at full power, which you'll want anyway due to how Blessing's heal, EV's damage and energy restore, etc., all scale with Strength. Thus, while you may personally use other builds for Trinity, the separation of her DR into two steroids does not in fact meaningfully affect her build diversity overall.

17 minutes ago, continue said:

that it had an exploit related to self-damage doesn't change its ineffectiveness when used normally. the argument still applies

No, it doesn't, because exploiting that feature became the standard and a major reason why Trinity was so strong, which is why her DE had to change the way the damage reduction worked on Blessing. Your argument remains conjectural, while mine is based on things that actually happened.

17 minutes ago, continue said:

you're taking this a bit far with the ad-hominem.

Please point to where I have insulted your person or used your own character as an argument against your claims.

17 minutes ago, continue said:

i specifically noted that while people may point it out as more of a hassle, it really isn't since *most* people play with link and blessing permanently active.

Which does not prevent doing so from being a hassle, hence why people complain about having to constantly refresh Trinity's buffs. The same argument could also be applied to my own kit, where most people who'd play with it would be liable to target allies with Link for DR and use Blessing whenever someone's in dire need of healing.

17 minutes ago, continue said:

there is no contradiction between noting that link is overcentralized in your version and accepting blessing's current state. as you've pointed out, blessing in its current state has equal usage with link by most players.

This completely misses the point, as there is an obvious contradiction in that Blessing is currently already overcentralized due to being both Trinity's team heal and her team DR steroid, and only seeing "equal usage with Link" (which is false, by the way, as Link does not see equal usage) when Trinity wants to give herself her full DR with two button presses instead of just the one most other frames need.

17 minutes ago, continue said:

if you were to implement your changes, it would have far less usage than link. 

And this is a bad thing... why? You seem to be operating under the logic that abilities need to all see exactly equal amounts of usage in order to all be worth using, which is not how ability design works.

[NinjaZeku]

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Nidus's Parasitic Link, Gara's Splinter Storm, and the Amesha's Watchful Swarm all disprove your assertion here, as they are all targeted buffs that work perfectly fine in Warframe's hypermobile environment

If they work for you, that's nice I guess, I absolutely HATE them, and thus most of the time don't even bother to try and use / build for them.

Plus FWIW, in my experience, outside of Hydron or something where players just stand still a good chunk of the time,
I pretty much never see one of the frequent Niduseses I encounter using Parasitic Link on allies, let alone see a Gara at all,
and since Amesha is kind of the go-to Archwing anyway, being able to share WS
(which I also have never witnessed / remembered to do lol) is nigh insignificant in any case.

Again, I bring up the elemental buff Augments, those were changed to no longer require individual targeting,
does that not mean there was something wrong about how they worked before that DE acknowledged?
Not to mention all the players agreeing in topics about them, where they similarly stated how annoying they were to use.

So ... no, "perfectly fine" is NOT a correct assessment.

lol </rant>

[continue]

27 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

No, it doesn't, because exploiting that feature became the standard and a major reason why Trinity was so strong, which is why her DE had to change the way the damage reduction worked on Blessing. Your argument remains conjectural, while mine is based on things that actually happened.

this argument attempts to characterize my experience as being conjectural and your experience as being authoritative. furthermore, we are applying it to a scenario which is itself conjectural. 

27 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Please point to where I have insulted your person or used your own character as an argument against your claims.

asking me to point out where when i have quoted it directly is clearly sealioning and intended only to lead to further argument.

27 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

And this is a bad thing... why? You seem to be operating under the logic that abilities need to all see exactly equal amounts of usage in order to all be worth using, which is not how ability design works.

as i've already stated, it reflects on their having similar *value*. while certainly not a 1:1 conversion, it should be obvious that i see your version of blessing as much less effective than link, and that with your changes there would be no reason to ever not build for link, while blessing would be untethered from both range and duration. but i'm finished engaging here, since i don't think i can actually say anything without being aggressively mischaracterized.

[xZeromusx]

29 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

I pretty much never see one of the frequent Niduseses I encounter using Parasitic Link on allies, let alone see a Gara at all,

Yeah, I rarely use Parasitic Link on allies unless it's a planned thing in order to boost a specific skill. Think Wisp motes, Oberon heal and armor buff, Gara's wall, Frost's globe, etc. It's not just that it's hard to sit there and try to target a wildly jumping player either. It's also the fact that I'm having to choose between giving them ability strength or reducing my shieldless frame's incoming damage by 90% by targeting enemies which are easier to hit. Sorry, but y'all are on your own.

Also, as for Gara, splinter storm is an absolute headache, and the targeting mechanic of it is the culprit. Not just for trying to buff allies, but also for trying to buff yourself. How bloody annoying is it to be trying to cast splinter storm on yourself, only to have something enter your targeting reticle and take the cast? That's why I've suggested that the ability be tap to cast at target, hold to cast on yourself, just like Titania's Spellbind.

 

As for the original post, I don't think Trinity needs anything really. She is HEAVY support. Also, link is NOT her bread and butter. How people can skip over Blessing's DR aspect and focus on the healing is baffling too. Blessing IS NOT about the healing. Sure, healing is nice, but truth be told, it's the damage reduction that really makes the ability strong. I don't know of many frames out there that can boast 75% damage reduction to all allies within AFFINITY RANGE in a single cast.

And yeah, there are FAR better ways to recover energy. Which is why I subsumed over Energy Vampire with Dispensary. Allies can pick up energy when they want, as well as health orbs and universal ammo, and I can focus my build on duration rather than range. Did I gimp link? Not really. It's base range is 20 meters, and my build is such that anything within 8 meters gets linked. That's fine. I don't have to worry about knockdown anyways, as my trinity has Primed Sure Footed. But if you don't have that, use Resolute Focus on your archgun, which remember, can be used infinitely with Dispensary. My build gives me 30 seconds of Blessing to allies within my 75 meter affinity range, 36 seconds on Dispensary, 34 seconds on Well of Life, and 34 seconds on Link. Yes, I still use Well of Life. No, the low range doesn't make it useless. The range is technically limitless when you consider shooting the target also heals at any range.

[Teridax68]

11 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

If they work for you, that's nice I guess, I absolutely HATE them, and thus most of the time don't even bother to try and use / build for them.

Plus FWIW, in my experience, outside of Hydron or something where players just stand still a good chunk of the time,
I pretty much never see one of the frequent Niduseses I encounter using Parasitic Link on allies, let alone see a Gara at all,
and since Amesha is kind of the go-to Archwing anyway, being able to share WS
(which I also have never witnessed / remembered to do lol) is nigh insignificant in any case.

That's nice, but this is ultimately you extrapolating a personal dislike of certain abilities into a generalization that is clearly not universal. Amesha being the go-to Archwing does not prevent WS from being easy to apply, as anyone who's done an Affinity run on Salacia will know, since those missions will often have a mix of Ameshas and Itzals (and occasionally Elytrons).

Quote

Again, I bring up the elemental buff Augments, those were changed to no longer require individual targeting,
does that not mean there was something wrong about how they worked before that DE acknowledged?
Not to mention all the players agreeing in topics about them, where they similarly stated how annoying they were to use.

So ... no, "perfectly fine" is NOT a correct assessment.

lol </rant>

Yes, there was something wrong about how they worked before... in that they only affected one ally at a time when buffing allies was all the augment was supposed to do, which made the things too expensive and fiddly for their core purpose. I've seen those threads too, and did not see many players complain about targeting. Meanwhile, you are using your personal dislike of targeted effects to carry this argument over to my suggestion for Link, despite the fact that a) my version of Link affects both allies and enemies as a baseline, and b) already has a hold function to unlink from targets. If you have a solution that would allow Trinity to link to a potentially unlimited number of allies and enemies, unlink from them on demand, and avoid having to target anyone in particular, I'd be most keen to read it.

1 minute ago, continue said:

this argument attempts to characterize my experience as being conjectural and your experience as being authoritative.

Which is the case, given that we live in a world where Trinity's DR on Blessing was changed precisely for the reasons I mentioned, with the usage of it corroborating my account of the facts. You may have personally experienced Trinity differently, but once again, your personal experiences are not universal, nor do they invalidate the general trend at the time of exploiting Trinity's DR.

1 minute ago, continue said:

furthermore, we are applying it to a scenario which is itself conjectural. 

The context where Blessing had variable DR based on healing received is not conjectural, it is historical.. What is conjectural is the relevance this little bit of history has to the paper kit being discussed.

1 minute ago, continue said:

asking me to point out where when i have quoted it directly is clearly sealioning and intended only to lead to further argument.

Quoted what directly? You quoted an entire block of text and accused me of ad hominem before launching into another series of arguments, which is not how direct quoting works. Asking you to provide basic justification for your random accusations isn't sealioning, and your refusal to do so is a clear attempt at BS, much like your attempts to rewrite your replies to me after I've responded to them, as shown by the discrepancies in the quotes.

1 minute ago, continue said:

as i've already stated, it reflects on their having similar *value*. while certainly not a 1:1 conversion, it should be obvious that i see your version of blessing as much less effective than link, and that with your changes there would be no reason to ever not build for link, while blessing would be untethered from both range and strength. but i'm finished engaging here, since i don't think i can actually say anything without being mischaracterized.

That ill-defined notion of "value" is precisely what I'm questioning, as you are attempting the equivalent of drawing a value comparison between apples and oranges here. Healing and damage reduction are not the same, and aren't used in the same way, so whether or not Blessing sees different use after having its healing separated from its DR is irrelevant to how valuable the ability is (and it would, by the way, still benefit from Strength, as its healing depends on the stat). Similarly, your personal valuation of those abilities is irrelevant to the discussion if you cannot establish a convincing, universally understandable reason for why you feel that way. Pointing this out isn't mischaracterizing you, nor is it ad hominem, it is merely correcting a fallacious argument you are making.

[NinjaZeku]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

If you have a solution that would allow Trinity to link to a potentially unlimited number of allies and enemies, unlink from them on demand, and avoid having to target anyone in particular, I'd be most keen to read it.

I don't have that, I don't want that, Trin doesn't need that.

Make Link less of an annoyance to use.

That's all I want.

(Plus keeping Blessing's buffing portion intact rather than moving that to a different ability for no good reason.)

[Teridax68]

15 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

I don't have that, I don't want that, Trin doesn't need that.

Make Link less of an annoyance to use.

That's all I want.

(Plus keeping Blessing's buffing portion intact rather than moving that to a different ability for no good reason.)

Okay, so effectively your design strategy is to have either only exactly what you personally want, everyone else be damned, or nothing at all. Good to know. As it stands, Trinity clearly could use some improvements whether or not you agree with them, and allowing Link to work on allies has been a recurring suggestion, so I'd say that would be worth giving it ago. Similarly, having to refresh buffs constantly is a problem even you pointed out, so all the more reason to take that out of both Link and Blessing in different ways. These are, by the way, arguments intended to be understood beyond my own personal preference, as I'm also factoring in what you've said here, whereas you're somehow expecting everyone to agree with how you want Trinity to be... just because. That's not how constructive feedback works.

Oh, and speaking of preference:

1 hour ago, continue said:

adding 1350 armor is equivalent to 76% damage reduction on trinity

(this is the most significant bit of post-reply rewriting I've seen in this post; the rest has been addressed already)

What you are effectively arguing here is that you are using a) Trinity's worst ability, b) an augment, and c) an expensive and niche mod all to obtain, at best, a single point of DR over Link, assuming you get to constantly keep that DR at max in the 3 seconds it takes for those stacks to start vanishing, and are faced with absolutely no sources of damage that reduce or ignore armor, such as the copious Slash procs of Grineer... while still continuing to be affected by status, unlike with Link. My point stands.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

On 2021-04-08 at 10:30 AM, Teridax68 said:

I can agree Trinity could be given a bit more damage potential, given that one can easily swap out one of her abilities for a nuke or steroid, and I can also agree very much with making her ability durations last longer, but I don't think her Blessing needs more stuff attached to it, really, plus I think there's a degree of redundancy between her 1 and 4 (healing), as well as her 3 and 4 (damage reduction) that ought to be addressed. I also think making her steroids mostly duration-based is a bit of a missed opportunity given how her Energy Vampire allows her to bypass the usual limitations of continuous drains.

With this in mind, my thoughts on how I'd like to change her:

• Change her passive so that it no longer speeds up revival, but instead lets her revive allies from much farther away.
• Change her 1 and rename it to Well of Death: instead of life steal, the target continually damages nearby enemies, increased based on the damage the affected target receives.
• Rework her 2 so that it:
  • Costs no Energy to cast.
  • Only gives Energy when the target dies.
  • Spreads to the nearest target for the remainder of its duration upon the target's death, prioritizing enemies affected by Well of Death, then Link.
• Rework Link:
  • Make it a continuous ability with an Energy drain affected by Duration and Efficiency (and which would still allow Energy restoration through Energy Vampire).
  • Allow Trinity to manually select as many targets as she wants to Link to by tapping targets at no cap, with each link increasing the drain. Hold-cast should unlink from all targets.
  • Keep its base damage reduction, but allow both it and its damage reflection to scale with Strength, with the DR capped at 90%.
  • Allow all damage and status dealt to any linked targets to be spread to other linked enemies.
  • Have the reflected damage also scale with enemy level in addition to Strength, so that it's always meaningful.
  • Allow Trinity to link to allies and give them the same status immunity + damage reduction.
• Remove Blessing's damage reduction. If we want to get fancy, have it grant a bonus to health and shields based on the target's missing health and shields before they were affected (the more they were missing, the greater the bonus).

And that I think would likely be my ideal Trinity. More versatile and smoother to play, with a bit more damage potential, while still being focused on protection and resource restoration.

No thank you. We shouldn't be making changes just because you think it would be "fancy". 

[XAN3MK]

What I find funny is that in this whole thread nobody brought up what is arguably the most powerful thing about Trinity's Link - the fact that it can do this:

Trinity is one of the select few sources of full armor strip in this game, after the changes to Corrosive Projecting and Corrosive procs armor stripping. It is invaluable tool when needed, especially now that full armor stripping is not so readily available.

She is also one of the more diverse frames when it comes to building due to how Strength, Power and Range interact between all her abilities. I'll admit that her 1 is virtually useless, but in a post Helminth world, that's very easy to fix. (This is not to say that I endorse frames being released or having suboptimal or dead abilities, but it is not realistic to expect a rework in this particular context, especially when we have an easy fix of our own)

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

No thank you. We shouldn't be making changes just because you think it would be "fancy". 

If that is the takeaway you got from my post, then I suggest you read it properly instead, as it gives several reasons for why Trinity should change, none of which have to do with "fanciness". If you disagree, feel free to say why using substantiated arguments, and perhaps you could start a productive conversation. :)

49 minutes ago, XAN3MK said:

Trinity is one of the select few sources of full armor strip in this game, after the changes to Corrosive Projecting and Corrosive procs armor stripping. It is invaluable tool when needed, especially now that full armor stripping is not so readily available.

There are literally over a dozen different warframe abilities and augments that strip armor, most of which can strip 100% of it too in one go, while being able to affect far more than just three targets at a time. Ash's Seeking Shuriken, Vauban's Bastille, and Xaku's Gaze are all examples of this, so while Abating Link is certainly a useful augment, it is by no means the only complete armor strip in the game.

49 minutes ago, XAN3MK said:

She is also one of the more diverse frames when it comes to building due to how Strength, Power and Range interact between all her abilities. I'll admit that her 1 is virtually useless, but in a post Helminth world, that's very easy to fix. (This is not to say that I endorse frames being released or having suboptimal or dead abilities, but it is not realistic to expect a rework in this particular context, especially when we have an easy fix of our own)

This I can agree with, with the caveat that building her for more or less Duration will always buff some of her abilities to the detriment of others. I think an often overlooked aspect of Trinity here is that she doesn't actually need to mod her abilities too much: Blessing only needs 50% extra Power Strength to be fully effective, Link has a hard target cap regardless of Rangge, and even at high Duration one is still going to have to/want to cast effects like Blessing often due to her steroids' short base duration and the latter's heal. Just a bit of Power Strength and Efficiency, plus the rest into durability mods, turns her into one of the most easily durable and self-reliant frames in the game, and as you mentioned, her fairly redundant 1 can be swapped out for something much better, like Roar.

[MINDL3SSVIOLNC3]

Sorry to revive this thread after a few months but it is something I feel like needs to be addressed because I really enjoy to play Trinity when she is in the right spot. Right now there are just other frames that can fill her role just as well and do more especially with the intro of the Helminth system.

In my mind Trinity is an angel of the battlefield. A support melee. Valkyrie. Striking fear into enemies whilst empowering allies.

With that said and kept in mind the ideas I had off the top of my head were this:

 

Passive: Entire squad gets a Sanctuary type effect instead of a set limit of damage absorption, giving them large damage reduction while reviving. (Buff)

Well of Life - Converts enemy armor/shields to life. Pulses life out while stripping armor/shields for the duration. EX: Pulses 3% life while stripping 10% armor per tick at max rank. Remove target invincibility remove the "lift" and add a "slow" effect. Makes the skill more of a scaling single target takedown with healing. (Debuff + Support)

Energy Vampire – Should work kind of like Well of Life used to. Provides a "slow" effect to the target (stacks with well of life). As you damage the target it pulses out energy. (Debuff + Support)

Link – add in Abating Link and change the augment to reduce shields or something else. Increase number of targets to 5 at max level. If possible make links actively track to the nearest targets. Opens up serious melee viability for her. (Debuff + Self Support)

Blessing – Same thing except add in a Phoenix Renewal into it. The renewal portion of the skill can only take effect once every 90 seconds. (Buff + Support)

 

To sum up, supporting allies and debuffing enemies in the form of armor reduction. There is much synergy between Well of Life and Energy Vampire in this configuration while link adds to her own combat capabilities and Blessing offers up addition survivability benefits for the entire squad.

[Yunjuwo]

On 2021-04-08 at 8:52 AM, Reitrix said:

The problem with Trinity is not Trinity. It's the nature of our damage intake. 

Warframes have one of two states. 

- Dead

- Immortal (Shield gate, eHP tank, immunity buttons etc)

You are either immune to damage or outright dead. 

So you either die too fast to be saved or you're immune to damage and don't need to be healed. 

 

On 2021-07-05 at 1:12 PM, MINDL3SSVIOLNC3 said:

Blessing – Same thing except add in a Phoenix Renewal into it. The renewal portion of the skill can only take effect once every 90 seconds. (Buff + Support)

There's a common issue shared between these two posts and it's that there is no default health gating in this game. Sure we have [Martyr Symbiosis], but the fact that it's locked behind deimos content, which will possibly be a long-ways away for new players(who honestly probably need it more than veteran players), and ALSO restricts your companion slot to using solely vulpaphylas, is pretty bad.

If we had default health gating, Trinity and other support-focused warframes wouldn't need [Phoenix Renewal]'s effect baked into their "life-saving" abilities, and players--both the one who takes fatal damage and their allies--would be given enough time to react appropriately.

As for how it would work:
Health has advantages over shields like armor and serving as a buffer against toxin damage, but shields having a gate obviously the deal closer. So let health have a gate; just like shields, our health gate would provide a second of invulnerability and require full restoration. But like [Martyr Symbiosis] and [Phoenix Renewal], add a cooldown. As for how long the cooldown would be, this is all hypothetical so it doesn't really matter. The concept however is that this would both save shield users from nonsense like being one-shot by a Toxic Ancient from off-screen, as well as give value back to health+armor builds; the result: more variety in builds beyond just equipping a Decaying Key.

[Lutesque]

On 2021-04-08 at 10:35 AM, MollAgdeduba said:

Ok... if you think link is her best ability, probably you don't know how trinity work and wich possibilities you have with her

I'm pretty sure OP didn't say/imply that... 🤔

On 2021-04-08 at 4:56 PM, ReekitoMagnifico said:

Look i'm not trying to turn Trinity into another nuke frame. I'm just trying to give a concept on how to change her so that she can keep up with the modern condition of warframe.

If you ask me... The problem is with The Modern Condition of Warframe rather than with her Trinity herself... 

Or rather it's the combination both....