Nidus Prime - the future of lore

[TARINunit9]

8 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Here's the reason that I believe your thesis is incorrect: Given all of the different ways we attain Warframes, that still get a Prime no matter what, and given that the only thing that actually differentiates a Prime from a non-Prime is the materials in its construction (which only affect base stats like Armour, Shields and so on, not effectiveness of their powers like Range, Duration etc.), then the only thing that defines 'Prime' in the Warframe universe is the Era. So what if the frame was buried, which we then scan the remains of that frame for the Blueprint? As long as it was created in the Orokin Era... that's what makes it a Prime.

See, that implies that there wouldn't be separate Prime and Not-Prime blueprints. That implies that you could take a singular blueprint, and if you put in material A you get a Prime, but put in B and get a Not-Prime

Now we all know the gameplay reason that isn't the case. But I have reason to believe the lore follows the gameplay on this one. Dojo research is one reason, I don't think the Tenno/Cephalons are that stupid that they couldn't just research the Prime materials needed if your theory was true. Especially after Equinox Prime, where the construction is literally completely different

That is why I think Titania Prime is evidence against your theory, not proves it

[VoidArkhangel]

En 21/5/2021 a las 16:09, GrayArchon dijo:

This does seem to be the case, and it pre-dates the Leverian. The What Remains? webcomic shows a non-Prime Octavia serving the Orokin, showing that not all warframes from the Orokin Era were Primes. My assumption is that Prime warframes are for ceremonial or high-level purposes, and that non-Primes and deluxe frames (Feyarch Oberon, etc) were out in the field.

Wont read anymore posts hehe but this is interesting.

We know from the Virtruvian (Ballas himself) that the all the Warframes were infested, they were soldiers contaminated with a special strain that made them terminators with the mobility of Alex Mercer (Prototype if you dont know who he is). Now, idk if anyone have this theory yet but I came to this conclusion:

The first version of all Warframes are the non-prime just because we have yet to know any kind of infestation/infection/parasite that can create gold just for the sake of it. These Warframes were tested on battlefield just like we see on the Ivara's Leverian, if they were succesful they would go to Lua and pass through the Halls of Ascension to finally be "blessed" with the Orokin enhancements along with the gold stuff. Then this primed frames would be deployed to the battlefield or whatever.

Also the canonicity of deluxe skins is questionable since we only know of four and three of these could be warframes manipulated by the Silver Grove after The Collapse while we also have Proto Excalibur as a deluxe skin wich is from Dark Sector and we know this one isnt canon. There is a lot of ways to justify this but again, we dont have enough proof that any other deluxe existed on the Orokin era.

 

Also seeing the discussion about Umbra being the last or first frame, welp, maybe was the last frame Ballas created but we know that a lot of scientist were working on a lot of frames so surely he wasnt the last nor the first because the non-prime Excalibur was the first. The thing with Umbra is that its the last Warframe to make the connection with an Operator for now, maybe Stalker was a low rank soldier who infested himself and went berserk so if we control him then Stalker would be the last to make that connection.

hace 6 horas, TARINunit9 dijo:

Yes, the Margulis thing is weird. Her lore is so twisted that either a) Sylvana is actually working with Natah, or b) Margulis died several hundred years after she died

Wtf?

[Birdframe_Prime]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

See, that implies that there wouldn't be separate Prime and Not-Prime blueprints.

Well yes, and no.

It implies that what we're doing is 'the best we can' and what Primes do is 'the best that a master of the creation process can'.

It specifically implies that the blueprints we get from the regular missions are just interpreted versions of an existing part, we're literally creating our own blueprints from the things we can find. Like the in-game explanation of how we get Valkyr is that a Valkyr frame was taken apart and put together again by Alad-V, so we take his data and put together our own version of the thing we scanned. Given that Alad-V has already messed with it, that's why we get the Alad-V version.

(The result of that interpretation would mean that the Deluxe is canon, but not the only canon, there's a missing non-Prime style of Valkyr that would be created if we were scanning the Prime and creating our own Blueprints from that.)

Likewise when we go to the Silver Grove and scan Titania's remains under the cairn, we're creating blueprints based on what Titania is and does, not based on what made her. We're creating Blueprints of the parts of Titania that we can find and interpret.

The original Blueprints for the frame are stored in the Relics, we retrieve those and follow the actual recipe, and we get the same frame, but with different visuals and some better base bits.

It's like saying that if you could (I assume nothing) bake really well, and were to be given the task of making a Cake that's chocolate flavoured, has creamy topping and a dusting of cinnamon on it, then you as a skilled baker could do that. I would assume it would be delicious because you would, in this scenario, be a good baker. However, that cake would not be the same cake as one created by a master, artisanal cake maker to a specific 200 year old cake recipe, who then spent hours to sculpt the topping into a fairy-tale castle that uses cinnamon dust to outline the roof tiles for an enchanting effect.

They're technically the exact same thing, both are a chocolate cake with creamy topping and cinnamon dusting. But the presentation and the creation method are different. They both fulfill the role of being that cake, but one is more expensive and desirable than the other.

That's the difference between Primes and non-Primes, we're creating the same thing, but one is from our own method and the other is from the original recipe.

17 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I don't think the Tenno/Cephalons are that stupid that they couldn't just research the Prime materials needed if your theory was true

Why is that any different? The Cephalons aren't researching anything, we are. Our results are the same whether we're going out to 'research' the method from parts in the Grove or whether we're doing it in a lab from some old data.

The whole concept is that we're getting the warframe, the abilities that work regardless of what method we used, but from our current Era's technological capabilities.

People like Ballas and the Archimedeans were literally the most intelligent people in the history of Warframe's universe, they used technology and applied theories that no Tenno could hope to rival. All of the things we use right now are just based off Orokin tech in the first place. Our weapons, our Liset, our Orbiter, our Railjacks, all of them from Orokin tech.

It's the difference between Users and Engineers. We can make it work, but they make it.

So of course, the surviving races of the solar system, the Grineer who get more and more stupid with every flock-clone generation, the Corpus who became nothing but a cult of money after the disappearance of their Founder all those generations ago, the un-affiliated people who returned to practically tribal states in their environments... Even us, the end-users of Orokin Tech, none of us are on that level.

That's the whole thing with 'current Era' versus 'Orokin Era': We just aren't as technologically advanced as they were then.

So even when we try to rebuild Orokin tech, we have to do it with current tech, and it's not as good.

25 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

That is why I think Titania Prime is evidence against your theory, not proves it

I don't follow.

If Titania Prime exists, then what was the entire point of Titania being killed protecting the Silver Grove? The original frame, that was hated by its creator, died protecting her Grove, being buried there with her.

Your theory is that we get a different frame out of the ground than a Prime. This is based in the theory that Primes were created by Ballas after the non-Prime was created. Which is kind of a strange theory given that we know now how frames are originally created (with living subjects being melded with the Helminth Infestation) and so ...

If that theory is true, then the Prime cannot exist, because it was never handed over to Ballas to become Prime, it died at the Grove.

However, if the only difference between a Prime and a non-Prime is the tech used to create it, then what we get out of the ground is our current Era interpretation, a blueprint created by us to make the Abilities of the frame. We are scanning a Prime frame and, without knowing how it was made, putting together our best guess.

If the only difference between a Prime and a non-Prime is the tech, then that would explain how we can pull the original blueprints from Relics, because they existed when Silvana created them, regardless of whether Ballas ever got his hands on Titania to make a Prime out of the frame or not.

So if Titania Prime exists, it's because Primes are made first, (thus 'prime' being used as 'originator' and not just 'best version') and the one in the Grove is the Prime.

Titania Prime exists.

That's where it supports my theory (and I never said it proves it, just supports it).

[ebrl]

The future of lore is exactly the same as the past and present of lore: wack

[TARINunit9]

19 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Wtf?

I mean that was literally Natah's job, to impersonate Margulis. Until (unless) DE clarifies when and what the Warframe project was, I think "Margulis died, was replaced by Natah, and Natah built the Warframes" is possible. It would explain why the Umbras have anti-Sentient properties but the Non-Primes and the Primes do not, for one thing

1 minute ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Well yes, and no.

It implies that what we're doing is 'the best we can' and what Primes do is 'the best that a master of the creation process can'.

It specifically implies that the blueprints we get from the regular missions are just interpreted versions of an existing part, we're literally creating our own blueprints from the things we can find. Like the in-game explanation of how we get Valkyr is that a Valkyr frame was taken apart and put together again by Alad-V, so we take his data and put together our own version of the thing we scanned. Given that Alad-V has already messed with it, that's why we get the Alad-V version.

But here is my problem:

We have the Primes too

If the blueprints were interchangeable like that, we would be able to replace the Zephyr in the dojo with a Zephyr Prime.

The Non-Primes aren't just a "good enough" jury-rig, they are completely different. Not just different materials, different construction, different strain of Helminth, different armor attachments, different everything. Except powers, those are just about the only thing they have in common with their Non-Prime concept models

That is why I think we could NOT, even in the lore, call the Titania buried in the Silver Grove "Titania Prime"

[VoidArkhangel]

hace 5 minutos, TARINunit9 dijo:

I mean that was literally Natah's job, to impersonate Margulis. Until (unless) DE clarifies when and what the Warframe project was, I think "Margulis died, was replaced by Natah, and Natah built the Warframes" is possible. It would explain why the Umbras have anti-Sentient properties but the Non-Primes and the Primes do not, for one thing

No one ever said that, Natah said that she was a mimic but didnt said who was mimicking, also for what she says on the Ropalolyst fight, the Orokin may caught her and "reformated" to serve as the Lotus also if Natah was sent to kill the Tenno, why would she create a weapon that could be even more efficient killing her race?

[TARINunit9]

12 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

No one ever said that, Natah said that she was a mimic but didnt said who was mimicking, 

Ballas said that. Apostasy Prologue, Ballas confirms that Natah is mimicking Margulis

13 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

why would she create a weapon that could be even more efficient killing her race?

Re-read my last comment, I said she DIDN'T do that

[VoidArkhangel]

hace 9 minutos, TARINunit9 dijo:

Ballas said that. Apostasy Prologue, Ballas confirms that Natah is mimicking Margulis

• Lotus: "For what? I am not who you think I am."
• Ballas: "-But of course you are. Imprisoned, just as she was."

hace 10 minutos, TARINunit9 dijo:

Re-read my last comment, I said she DIDN'T do that

 

hace 36 minutos, TARINunit9 dijo:

I mean that was literally Natah's job, to impersonate Margulis. Until (unless) DE clarifies when and what the Warframe project was, I think "Margulis died, was replaced by Natah, and Natah built the Warframes" is possible. It would explain why the Umbras have anti-Sentient properties but the Non-Primes and the Primes do not, for one thing

You sure?

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, VoidArkhangel said:

• You sure?

Yes, you were looking at the wrong comment:

39 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

It would explain why the Umbras have anti-Sentient properties but the Non-Primes and the Primes do not, for one thing

 

[VoidArkhangel]

hace 1 minuto, TARINunit9 dijo:

Yes, you were looking at the wrong comment:

 

Sorry I thought we were talking about Natah being Margullis and build the frames so in this case you say that [NULL] would explain Umbra's anti-sentient abilities?

[TARINunit9]

2 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Sorry I thought we were talking about Natah being Margullis and build the frames so in this case you say that [NULL] would explain Umbra's anti-sentient abilities?

Ok two things:

1) Natah is mimicking Margulis. I honestly don't know how you can deny that. It's one of those "unless the exact four words 'Natah is mimicking Margulis' appear in the script I won't accept it" mentalities that I hate

2) Natah was grooming the Tenno to kill the Orokin, and Ballas was in on it. That's all canon, that's in the script. To that end, most of the Warframes would secretly be designed to kill humans, not Sentients. Umbra was specially built for killing Sentients, because he was a side project Ballas worked on alone (though whether Umbra was the very first Warframe or came much later is unclear).

What I'm saying is, I would assume the rest of the Orokin would want that anti-Sentient goodness in every Warframe. Either Margulis put it in and Natah stripped it back out, or Margulis was already dead and Natah never put it there in the first place. I don't know which of those is canon, all I'm saying is they're both possible

[VoidArkhangel]

hace 2 minutos, TARINunit9 dijo:

Ok two things:

1) Natah is mimicking Margulis. I honestly don't know how you can deny that. It's one of those "unless the exact four words 'Natah is mimicking Margulis' appear in the script I won't accept it" mentalities that I hate

2) Natah was grooming the Tenno to kill the Orokin, and Ballas was in on it. That's all canon, that's in the script. To that end, most of the Warframes would secretly be designed to kill humans, not Sentients. Umbra was specially built for killing Sentients, because he was a side project Ballas worked on alone (though whether Umbra was the very first Warframe or came much later is unclear).

What I'm saying is, I would assume the rest of the Orokin would want that anti-Sentient goodness in every Warframe. Either Margulis put it in and Natah stripped it back out, or Margulis was already dead and Natah never put it there in the first place. I don't know which of those is canon, all I'm saying is they're both possible

Thats what I wanted to see.

1) Natah couldnt mimic Margulis because Ballas would notice, Margulis was pretty famous with the Orokin leaders and, if she took her form after Margulis died would be even more foolish as taking its placer when she was alive. You are taking conclusions with half the story told and without logic.

2) This is something interesting because we see the Lotus comanding the Tenno while on the Old War but soon after they erradicated the Orokin... anyways, the Lotus was our commander of some sort but she was no scientists nor the Orokin would want she to be (if what Natah says is right). Also Ballas needed to silence Umbra because he discovered that Ballas was "betraying" the Orokin and wanted to expose it so Ballas infected him and kept him on Lua as we see on The Sacrifice. Where Umbra got his anti-sentient thing? or did the "Umbra strain" had anti-sentient abilities? we dont know yet but what I think could be was the exposure to the void, remember that Umbra was on Lua all along (generations of being inside the void).

Lastly I would say that Natah never stripped these abilities since she was created to kill the kids and nothing more. Also if the Orokin caught the spy they would check the entire project right? such abilities being missing would priority number one for the entire empire.

[TARINunit9]

29 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

1) Natah couldnt mimic Margulis because Ballas would notice

He was in on it! It was his idea

 

[VoidArkhangel]

hace 3 minutos, TARINunit9 dijo:

He was in on it! It was his idea

 

A possibility indeed but it doesnt makes sense, because when Ballas told Hunhow about Lua Margulis was already dead and I dont think anyone would act like nothing after seenig someone who was executed with the Jade Light going to the work like it was just another day.

[TARINunit9]

9 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

A possibility indeed but it doesnt makes sense, because when Ballas told Hunhow about Lua Margulis was already dead and I dont think anyone would act like nothing after seenig someone who was executed with the Jade Light going to the work like it was just another day.

Yeah, you are correct. Ballas didn't just go back to work the next day

In case I'm not being clear, Ballas's primary goal was the destruction of the Orokin. Selling out the Orokin to the Sentients, using Natah to groom the Tenno, that was all working to his goal: either the Sentients would win and kill every Orokin but him, or the Tenno would win and kill all the Orokin anyway

[VoidArkhangel]

hace 3 minutos, TARINunit9 dijo:

Yeah, you are correct. Ballas didn't just go back to work the next day

I said fricking Margulis.

hace 4 minutos, TARINunit9 dijo:

In case I'm not being clear, Ballas's primary goal was the destruction of the Orokin. Selling out the Orokin to the Sentients, using Natah to groom the Tenno, that was all working to his goal: either the Sentients would win and kill every Orokin but him, or the Tenno would win and kill all the Orokin anyway

Seems right but again, half of the story is missing, we dont know why the Tenno erradicated the Orokin (Alad said it was because a Sentient but was he talking about Natah?) Also I think his plan failed when Natah got discovered since he wanted all sides to fall at the same time, the Sentients would sacrifice to kill the Tenno, the Warframes would go berserk without Operators (maybe?) and the Orokin would be destroyed by both sides leaving the Sentients as the winners most likely but that wasnt how it happened, right?

The Lotus commanded the Tenno to repel Sentient forces and then they erradicated the Orokin, Ballas himself said all of the Warframes are failures then why would he want them to be the last ones standing?

[TARINunit9]

10 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

I said fricking Margulis.

OK I see your concerns

But like I said, Ballas arranged for it. Plus enough time might have passed, and the execution not publicized enough, that Sylvana wouldn't have known who Margulis was. I mean have you ever heard of George Johnson?

12 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Seems right but again, half of the story is missing, we dont know why the Tenno erradicated the Orokin

That's freaking easy dude: because we wanted to. Yes, WE. You and I. One of the Tenno is YOU, VoidArkhangel. You killed the Orokin because you wanted to. Honestly Natah didn't really need to groom us, she could have just marked the Orokin as enemies on our minimaps and let us get to work

[Roble_Viejo]

Bold of you to assume DE cares more about Lore than selling Prime Access

In 8 years of development, the first 4 have ten times more lore than the last 4 years

Warframe Lore is dead and buried

[VoidArkhangel]

hace 4 minutos, TARINunit9 dijo:

OK I see your concerns

But like I said, Ballas arranged for it. Plus enough time might have passed, and the execution not publicized enough, that Sylvana wouldn't have known who Margulis was. I mean have you ever heard of George Johnson?

That's freaking easy dude: because we wanted to. Yes, WE. You and I. One of the Tenno is YOU, VoidArkhangel. You killed the Orokin because you wanted to. Honestly Natah didn't really need to groom us, she could have just marked the Orokin as enemies on our minimaps and let us get to work

Both are false:

-Margulis created the "therapy" so maybe she wasnt known for the other ppl but the scientists (who are the only ones that were working on the labs) would recognize her immediately, also Sylvana wont know a thing because she left the laboratory to become a freaking forest.

-We didnt wanted but this part

hace 14 minutos, TARINunit9 dijo:

Honestly Natah didn't really need to groom us, she could have just marked the Orokin as enemies on our minimaps and let us get to work

solves it all since you just proved my point, Natah wasnt needed therefor she wasnt part of the plan meaning that either Ballas planned everything until The Sacrifice or the plan just failed miserably.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, VoidArkhangel said:

-Margulis created the "therapy" so maybe she wasnt known for the other ppl but the scientists (who are the only ones that were working on the labs) would recognize her immediately, also Sylvana wont know a thing because she left the laboratory to become a freaking forest.

How? Do you know every therapist on the planet? I honestly don't think Margulis was famous at all, much less so famous that she would be recognized a hundred years later

1 hour ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Natah wasnt needed

Ballas didn't know she was needed. The Orokin elite were such vile sociopaths that he made Natah groom us anyway. This isn't me grasping at straws, they did that to everyone. Ever heard of the Scoria Temple? The Tenno are only unique in that we ironically didn't need it

[GrayArchon]

4 hours ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Where Umbra got his anti-sentient thing? or did the "Umbra strain" had anti-sentient abilities? we dont know yet but what I think could be was the exposure to the void, remember that Umbra was on Lua all along (generations of being inside the void).

Sevagoth has been in the Void for roughly the same amount of time and he has no anti-Sentient properties. I think it's fair to say that Umbra's anti-Sentient qualities are designed by Ballas. The question of why is unanswered.

4 hours ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Lastly I would say that Natah never stripped these abilities since she was created to kill the kids and nothing more.

Natah was created to with the direct goal of infiltrating the Tenno, for the larger goal of killing all the Orokin – both of which she accomplished. The only thing she didn't accomplish was to then kill the Tenno.

4 hours ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Also if the Orokin caught the spy they would check the entire project right? such abilities being missing would priority number one for the entire empire.

Natah says that she was caught by the Orokin, but doesn't clarify which Orokin. I think it's likely that it was just Ballas, since he would have been expecting her. Orokin society has been shown to be fraught with internecine conflicts, so individual Orokin probably didn't work too well together out of suspicion. In such an environment, Ballas could have gotten away with a lot of things with little oversight.

3 hours ago, VoidArkhangel said:

we dont know why the Tenno erradicated the Orokin

Because they were told to. Natah, as the Lotus, ordered them to, and the Tenno obeyed. We know they had rudimentary understanding that the Orokin were evil (per the conversations at the end of The Second Dream), but the Lotus also seems to have had near-total control over them (as shown in the Erra cinematic). Natah's quest was to infiltrate the Tenno and command them to wipe out the Orokin. The Tenno had barely any agency in the act.

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Sylvana wouldn't have known who Margulis was

direct quote from Silvana: "I'll be working with one of my childhood heroes, Archimedian Margulis!" (emphasis added)

[Dhrekr]

7 hours ago, p_silveira said:

Honest question from a not-so-ancient (~3 years) player: what is there to be triggered about Nova Prime?

The old codex entry said that Nova was created by the Tenno High Council, an in-game nod to the fact that Nove was created by players (like Xaku). Many people argued that "she wasn't created by the Orokin TECNICUHLLY so she SURELY doesn't have a Prime hurr durr respect the LORE!!"

This in-game lore was removed (when they introduced the Prime iirc) but you can still find it in her introduction video.

[TARINunit9]

14 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

direct quote from Silvana: "I'll be working with one of my childhood heroes, Archimedian Margulis!" (emphasis added)

Indeed, but was that idealized hero the real Margulis or Natah in disguise?

[GrayArchon]

40 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Indeed, but was that idealized hero the real Margulis or Natah in disguise?

I'm going to go with the real Margulis, unless you think a high-placed spy with operational control over a special forces unit during an existential war also found the time to be a brilliant scientist.

Also, Silvana says that Margulis is "as much a victim" as the children. I take this as an implication that Margulis was publicly protesting the weaponisation of the Tenno at this time, which would place it shortly before her execution.

[TARINunit9]

10 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

I'm going to go with the real Margulis, unless you think a high-placed spy with operational control over a special forces unit during an existential war also found the time to be a brilliant scientist.

Isn't building weapons of war part and parcel for her?

I'm not saying this is definitively what happened. The main reason I think it's possible is because of the Rhino Prime codex. Ok, so Margulis put the Z-kids to sleep in order to save them, this is why she was charged with apostasy and executed. Then the Rhino Prime codex shows two different scientists trying to escape from Proto-Rhino, but are saved by a bunch of sleeping Z-kids who pacify the Proto. This would happen after Margulis is dead, yes? It's presented as the origins of Tenno Transference, and it is made clear that the kids are all in stasis. Then years later, after scientists are drafted into the Warframe Program, Margulis is suddenly alive and well.

Either DE have restructured the timeline, and the saviour-by-stasis now happened much later, or that's actually Natah in disguise that Sylvana is talking to. I have no idea which one