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Nidus Prime - the future of lore


.GRUSB

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Sorry for google (yandex) translation

Many people are indignant about the non-canonicity of the future prime version of Nidus, but there is, in my opinion, a simple solution. Ballas, as the creator of the prime versions in the past, managed to reach our days in the game, and even already played the role of a blacksmith for us. In addition to Nidus, there are other frames such as Zaku, which appeared after the Orokin era, and most likely they are not the last. Only DE knows (or maybe they don't know yet) how will the new war end, but why not get Balas out of where he is now so that he can pick up tools and create for us versions of frames "to his golden taste" in the present? This is a solution not only for nidus but for all future frame.

 

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I think that DE profundly, deeply, truly doesn't care about the lore behind Primes.

 

Also, I remember people being all triggered by the thought of Nova Prime or of Valkyr Prime. And - guess what. DE didn't care about the lore behind those Primes. And, after a couple of years, none of us really care about it either.

I bet you that three years after the release of Nidus Prime no one will even remember having cared about something so irrelevant.

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I'm past the point of getting baffled by such decisions. I do not believe that lore is the first (or second, or third...) thing that comes to DE's collective mind when designing warframes or making other similar decisions. The flow of content through time, along with the flow of income, are the primary concerns.

Also, let's face it: if Nidus didn't get a prime version, many people would also be upset. Those that would develop an OCD because a single warframe would be an exception to a pattern, and those of course that love to play Nidus.

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There's really no lore issues here. Have you seen the the wall meat the guys in Cetus farm? The Orokin are known for adorning their fleshy monsters in gold and plaster, it was their way to fight the Sentients when nothing else worked.

The literal only lore we have on Nidus is that "he's an Old War relic", which tells us absolutely nothing since ALL Warframes are Old War relics. Can't really break much lore there when he doesn't really have any.

As for Xaku, he was clearly formed together during the Orokin Era, were you not paying attention? The Entrati talk about the Void Expeditions the Orokin went through to better understand the Void, Xaku was just a Warframe who went on one that had an accident. 

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1 hour ago, Dhrekr said:

I think that DE profundly, deeply, truly doesn't care about the lore behind Primes.

 

Also, I remember people being all triggered by the thought of Nova Prime or of Valkyr Prime. And - guess what. DE didn't care about the lore behind those Primes. And, after a couple of years, none of us really care about it either.

I bet you that three years after the release of Nidus Prime no one will even remember having cared about something so irrelevant.

What do you want them to do? Like, either they prime them or they don’t, are you advocating for DE to skip some of the frames and just not give them a prime version?

Because in reality, anyone who doesn’t like the prime is perfectly able to continue using the default frame. Instead of trying to ruin things for other people?

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DE is, at bottom, a company trying to generate the best monetized return for the least amount of effort from a free-to-play RNG grindbox. User Acquisition followed by extraction. They're primarily concerned about whether rewards and drop rates are the right balance of enticing but frustrating to keep people buying plat and spending it in consumptive transactions rather than P2P trades. There's an enormous amount of DE's resources devoted to ensuring that, which is their real business model, is running as "efficiently" as it possibly can.

Game development is a necessary evil for these guys. It's required for the customer to enter their skinner box so it needs to be there and mostly work kinda sorta, but they're monetizing the skinner box and not the game itself. As for lore, you may as well expect thought and care being put into the lore of Boom Beach or something. It's all window dressing for the monetization machine.

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Il y a 2 heures, (XBOX)Graysmog a dit :

There's really no lore issues here. Have you seen the the wall meat the guys in Cetus farm? The Orokin are known for adorning their fleshy monsters in gold and plaster, it was their way to fight the Sentients when nothing else worked.

The literal only lore we have on Nidus is that "he's an Old War relic", which tells us absolutely nothing since ALL Warframes are Old War relics. Can't really break much lore there when he doesn't really have any.

As for Xaku, he was clearly formed together during the Orokin Era, were you not paying attention? The Entrati talk about the Void Expeditions the Orokin went through to better understand the Void, Xaku was just a Warframe who went on one that had an accident. 

Exactly

it's kind of impressive how some people pull headcannon out of nowhere and then get pissed when DE don't bend over backward to make it true

so let's go over some supposed lore-breaking frame

Nova : "designed by the Tenno High Council" that sentence didn't imply the Council made her on their own and without Ballas involvement  and nowhere in the lore it is said that the tenno council is a post orokin fall institution (mainly because the counsil didn't exist anywhere else in the lore).

Valkyr: "Forged in the labs of the Zanuka project, the original Valkyr was subject to cruel experiments, leaving her scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing." here we have a edge case because DE probably didn't have a fully set lore on the nature of the frame when she was introduced... that being said :

the text refer to a original Valkyr so, no "gersemi" was not the name of the frame before Alad little "make over"
the text mainly point at a change in behavious, not power
Alad stated that he don't understand how warframes work, making unliklely he could modify one
Our frames are get daily slashed, punctured, burned, frozen, drench in acid... if torture could change a frame power ALL the frame would be Valkyr by this point
 

Nidus : "Command the Infestation to mutate and grow ever more destructive."  this one is easy, Nidus is a frame designed to control the infestation, not an infested frame (or to be exact not a more infested frame than any other), considering that the infestation is one of the few thing capable of standing up to the sentient it made sense that Ballas would create at least on frame directly using it as a weapon. His current appareance is the product of century traped within an infested derelict nothing more.

Xaku: "a Warframe assembly made of others lost in the early Entrati Void expeditions." Xaku is made from three old war era frames lost to the void, aka from three prime warframe, Xaku prime will merely be that original golden patchwork.

Revenant: Revenant is not a sentient frame, Revenant existed before the eidolon was a thing, he was tasked to keep it in check, fail do to so and end up getting twisted by it.

like with Valkyr and Nidus this is a cosmetic change not a deeper one

Design wise he was suppose to be a vampire/mind-control themed frame, it's just that "otherworldy entity rising from the grave at night to torment the living" describe pretty well both the eidolon and a vampire making the visual association pretty straighforward (ironically his current power set is the result of the community "MOAR LAZER" complain twisting his kit like the eidolon twisted his body)

To be fair we do have another edge case here, in theory there should be (at least) three form of Revenant : the Original Uncorrupted Prime, the Corrupted Prime and the reverse engineered Non-Prime we currently have. the futur Void relic should containt the Uncorrupted one has the corruption happen after the Orokin fall. that being told we know that the Void don't follow our physical world law of time and causality so it's not that far fetched to imagine that a Relic contain every version of a frame that existed, exist and will exist even one that was only active for 2 minutes, in one place, years after the relic creation (Yeah for handwaving the problem with space magic ^^")

small addendum : actually Revenant could be a sentient frame, after all the sentient are orokin/corpus tech (according to the synthesis lore bit), like with Nidus it is not unlikely that Ballas try to create a frame designed to turn the sentient power against them (after all operator amp are made from sentient bone and if i recall correctly Chroma pelt was suppose to be made from a dead dragon-like sentient) so we can easily have Revenant Prime being a frame created to emulate a live sentient power (the lasers, the ability to be multiple entity at once) and the current non-prime being the undead/eidolon version of it aka same powerset but more "ghostly"

 

In the end the one advantage of DE fragmented, unreliable narrator-based storytelling is that it give "the lore" a lot of plasticity and room to evolve and change without going in full retcon/lorebreak... that is, as long as players are willing to accept that whatever headcannon they have is just that and a such can be proven wrong the very next update.

Ultimatly Prime Acces is one of the main monetization element of the game as such every warframes will get their prime and as a result lorewise every frame has a prime variant made by Ballas during the old war. If your understanding of the lore don't allow for a specific Prime to exist then your understanding is wrong, simple as that.

 

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4 hours ago, .GRUSB said:

addition to Nidus, there are other frames such as Zaku, which appeared after the Orokin era, and most likely they are not the last

Where did you get this from? The game itself says Nidus is an old war relic and Xaku:

"This Warframe Xaku. Somewhat of a family themselves. A sum of many, a composite of others we lost in the ages that our Entrati family has served here"

What a surprise another old relic, that's basically every Warframe ever, an old war relic that was lost and we find it eventually.

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4 hours ago, .GRUSB said:

 


Sorry for google (yandex) translation

Many people are indignant about the non-canonicity of the future prime version of Nidus, but there is, in my opinion, a simple solution. Ballas, as the creator of the prime versions in the past, managed to reach our days in the game, and even already played the role of a blacksmith for us. In addition to Nidus, there are other frames such as Zaku, which appeared after the Orokin era, and most likely they are not the last. Only DE knows (or maybe they don't know yet) how will the new war end, but why not get Balas out of where he is now so that he can pick up tools and create for us versions of frames "to his golden taste" in the present? This is a solution not only for nidus but for all future frame.

 

It's cool you were all worried about Nidus but this already happened with Inaros and Chroma and Valkyr.

 

Primes are financial, not thematic as stated by Steve point blank on twitch years ago.

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1 hour ago, Ombretrone said:

it's kind of impressive how some people pull headcannon out of nowhere and then get pissed when DE don't bend over backward to make it true

Because it's easier to say something doesn't make sense and leave it at that than trying to imagine "how could this make sense" and craft a theory from that since the game itself doesn't give much straightforward information

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I don't personally see an issue. The (original) Prime Warframes at their core seem to be Dax soldiers infected with Helminth, and then genetically modified to exhibit desirable abilities (or perhaps convenient power-types are created based on who gets infected, it's neither here nor there). If we have the powers of a light-wielding swordsman, a literal necromancer, and a cowgirl gunslinger, is it that far of a stretch to think that a Helminth mutation could lead to the creation of a space-zombie controller, especially when the creating virus is in the same family of viruses?

If the Warframes' abilities are intentional designs, which is heavily implied by lore because of how Ballas recruited different Archimedeans to design Warframes (Titania quest), it would make a lot of sense. The Technocyte Infestation was capable of fighting the Sentients, but was uncontrollable and failed to fight effectively. The Orokin could have seen this and thought "let's make a Warframe that can control Technocyte, who can direct them against the Sentients".

All that said, I have a lot of disagreements with how DE handles their lore and think it'd be good to do some retcons and decide on a solid Old War timeline if they're going to reference it SO MUCH. These problems don't crop up as often in other games because the past timeline is either explained fully or left vague and not constantly referenced (such as the original Halo trilogy).

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Probably way off base but from the recent stuff like the leverian entries it sounds as though primes and base versions of the frames existed at the same time and that primes are simply upgraded versions of the frames, like the elite frames. At least that's the impression I was left with.

Plus a lot of the base frames have lore from the old war, wouldn't those frames from the quests be primed versions not the base ones in those stories if all Orokin era frames were primes and the base ones are modern day Tenno knock-offs? Wouldn't the 3 frames in the intro cinematic be primes?

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3 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

What do you want them to do? Like, either they prime them or they don’t, are you advocating for DE to skip some of the frames and just not give them a prime version?

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....

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Dear diary.

Today I wrote "DE is going to release Primes without caring about the lore". Because I think they'll Prime every warframe. Someone answered "ARE YOU ADVOCATING THEY SKIP SOME WARFRAMES".

Dear diary: do words even mean something?

Have we all been swallowed by the Abyss?

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3 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

What do you want them to do? Like, either they prime them or they don’t, are you advocating for DE to skip some of the frames and just not give them a prime version?

Because in reality, anyone who doesn’t like the prime is perfectly able to continue using the default frame. Instead of trying to ruin things for other people?

They could do not-prime but pick-some-name frame. Like you have Vandal, Prisma and Kuva versions of weapons. They could even pull some interesting gimmick instead of "death orb energy".

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40 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

....

....

....

Dear diary.

Today I wrote "DE is going to release Primes without caring about the lore". Because I think they'll Prime every warframe. Someone answered "ARE YOU ADVOCATING THEY SKIP SOME WARFRAMES".

Dear diary: do words even mean something?

Have we all been swallowed by the Abyss?

What do you want them to do?

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There is no reason why Nidus (or Xaku later or) cant have a prime.

Nidus isnt infested, he just manifests his warframe powers in a way that acts similar to the infestation. He is still a creation using the helminth strain at its core, he just acts infested instead of growing metal skin, having a sonar or throwing fire/ice at things. It is his orokin design so there is nothing odd with him having a prime at all.

Xaku for instance can be explained by a prime being created through spare prime parts, 3 specific "dead" primes that they managed to reuse and merge into one. Which led to the normal Xaku later on by using the same 3 normal versions of the frames (since they worked for the prime). A Xaku prime could have been a valid late-war solution created in an hour of need, or simply an experiment to get more out of the frames even after they are destroyed/killed as the old war progressed.

Revenant is really the only frame where a prime is hard to explain since the game and lore implies he got altered during his time in the lake among the eidolons. Though that can all be explained by altering his visuals for his powerset on the prime version. They'd just have to go more hardcore revenant on his theme for the prime, possibly even tie Death more into the visuals of his danse macabre to fit the name. Either with some spectral shadow scythe twirling around or some shadowy grasp instead of finger lasers. Mesmer Skin could easily be turned into an actual skin effect that resembles constantly shifting circle based mosaic patterns. Enthrall just needs less vombalyst looking mindcontrol indicators, maybe just the simple and classic twirly circle thingy most games use to show MC states and then Reave is good as it is. Hopefully the prime itself has less or no spectral look to it, would be better if it looked like Gary Oldman's Vlad armor in Dracula, it would also kinda fit the "Warden" callsign that has been used for the normal Rev before he went Jason in the lake.

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Gameplay and content take priority over lore. If game developers restricted what they can do or add to a game based on the official lore then a Yamcha player would never defeat a Goku player in DBZ games.

Same logic applies to Warframe. 

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