MELEE Foot Work (Let me control my legs)

[Scar.brother.help.me]

 Am I the only one who thinks that forced movement in melee stances is a really bad design? 

Could every stance be like:
combo 1 - spam melee button - combo in place standing still
combo 2 - spam melee + block - combo in place standing still
combo 3 - spam melee + ANY direction - moving combo to that direction
combo 4 - spam melee + block +ANY direction - combo that has ONLY gap closing moves with more or less the same distance in the direction you want

I want to control where my warframe is moving.
For example I fight in place with "combo 1", then I need to move a bit closer or back or step aside - i add a direction and start to perform a "moving combo 3", then I let go of directional buttons and switch back to "combo 1" in place. Then for some reason I need to close the gap with another enemy, I add block + derection to my melee spam and make 1-2 gap closing moves of "combo 4" and when I am close enough - let go of the directional button to perform "combo 2" in place or let go of both direction and block and perform "combo 1" in place while using directions from time to time to stay close to my enemy with the help of "combo 3".
Do you understand what I mean?


P.S.: "I also wish to be able to turn off "Back + melee while airborn" feature, pretty often I need to move a bit back while slashing midair. All that FORWARD and BACKWARD interaction is a bad choice imo."
 

[Loza03]

Maybe it's the fact I play a lot of Monster Hunter and Devil May Cry and my preferences are based on that, but I've never seen the appeal of it. It's a component of the 'melee as mindless spam' problem. Far from the only reason, naturally, but a contributing factor, to be sure. It also feels like it makes the combat feel a lot worse.

I can respect that the standing combos we have move us forward too much, but popular weapons like polearms that have basically no thought put into them and feel totally weightless IMO.

 

If we're being honest, I can't think of many other games similar to Warframe that make use of a system like this. It's usually either a simple FPS-style single-hit melee, or combos which have set movement.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

15 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Maybe it's the fact I play a lot of Monster Hunter and Devil May Cry and my preferences are based on that, but I've never seen the appeal of it. It's a component of the 'melee as mindless spam' problem. Far from the only reason, naturally, but a contributing factor, to be sure. It also feels like it makes the combat feel a lot worse.

I can respect that the standing combos we have move us forward too much, but popular weapons like polearms that have basically no thought put into them and feel totally weightless IMO.

 

If we're being honest, I can't think of many other games similar to Warframe that make use of a system like this. It's usually either a simple FPS-style single-hit melee, or combos which have set movement.

But what's the point of that movement in Warframe? It does harm for sure - I constantly miss the enemy and find myself going through them appearing behind their backs, this is a Dumb-HORDE-enemy game and there are no DUESL here, I understand what you mean, I am a fan of Souls series, but in games like those you have very few enemies, try to deal with them one at a time and moveset is very important, I can understand that, but where is the place for it in Warframe? It would be much more useful to have a spin combo in each stance (i.e. combo 2)

And btw polearm simple comboes are the most comfortable in this game, except Twirling Spire (and it is sad)

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Am I the only one who thinks that forced movement in melee stances is a really bad design?

And it's a relatively recent invention too. Before the latest melee rework, there were a numer of stances that allowed for entirely unrestricted and/or no movement during combos. The only remaining stances to allow this are so barebones/incomplete, that they consist of pretty much only the old "quick melee" chained together a few times.

Honestly, melee stances are in quite a bad state. Like much of the game, unfortunately. Lot's of fraying ends...

[Loza03]

18 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

But what's the point of that movement in Warframe? It does harm for sure - I constantly miss the enemy and find myself going through them appearing behind their backs, this is a Dumb-HORDE-enemy game and there are no DUESL here, I understand what you mean, I am a fan of Souls series, but in games like those you have very few enemies, try to deal with them one at a time and moveset is very important, I can understand that, but where is the place for it in Warframe? It would be much more useful to have a spin combo in each stance (i.e. combo 2)

And btw polearm simple comboes are the most comfortable in this game, except Twirling Spire (and it is sad)

The number of enemies is pretty much besides the point. DMC throws dozens of enemies at you even without Legendary Dark Knight, comparable amounts to the average Warframe room - late game especially, it is not uncommon for there to be 10-ish light enemies. Granted, Warframe combat can and should still be faster especially since such fights are far more the norm, but the point that good, crunchy animations aren't mutually exclusive with horde fights remains. By contrast, I have thought of a game that has a similar melee system to Warframe, but that's also a duelling-focused game.

As for what their purpose is, in part, a balance thing. It's the same point as why harder hitting weapons have a slower firing rate, or less accuracy or scarcer ammo, bigger melee weapons swing slower and leave you more vulnerable, but hit a wider arc. This fact makes gives different weapons different feels and roles. If every weapon's a hypersonic 360 blender, then there's no meaningful decision making. Additionally, completely freeing the player's movement also removes some decision making aspects, since unrestricted movement means attacks have fewer drawbacks.

If the whole game is designed to just be comfortable, and never challenge or restrict the player, then the loot progression, end-game, challenge - all of that goes out with it, because they rely on the player having weaknesses to think around.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The number of enemies is pretty much besides the point. DMC throws dozens of enemies at you even without Legendary Dark Knight, comparable amounts to the average Warframe room - late game especially, it is not uncommon for there to be 10-ish light enemies. Granted, Warframe combat can and should still be faster especially since such fights are far more the norm, but the point that good, crunchy animations aren't mutually exclusive with horde fights remains. By contrast, I have thought of a game that has a similar melee system to Warframe, but that's also a duelling-focused game.

As for what their purpose is, in part, a balance thing. It's the same point as why harder hitting weapons have a slower firing rate, or less accuracy or scarcer ammo, bigger melee weapons swing slower and leave you more vulnerable, but hit a wider arc. This fact makes gives different weapons different feels and roles. If every weapon's a hypersonic 360 blender, then there's no meaningful decision making. Additionally, completely freeing the player's movement also removes some decision making aspects, since unrestricted movement means attacks have fewer drawbacks.

If the whole game is designed to just be comfortable, and never challenge or restrict the player, then the loot progression, end-game, challenge - all of that goes out with it, because they rely on the player having weaknesses to think around.

Warframe has no difficulty just get over it, it only throws annoyance to us from time to time like Nullifiers and energy drains. Melee stances - one of those, I'd give away half the DPS of the melee fot it to become pleasant to use. I mean it. If there was s switch "-50% DPS but free legs" - I'd use it constantly.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Warframe has no difficulty just get over it, it only throws annoyance to us from time to time like Nullifiers and energy drains. Melee stances - one of those, I'd give away half the DPS of the melee fot it to become pleasant to use. I mean it. If there was s switch "-50% DPS but free legs" - I'd use it constantly.

We're in agreement over wanting melee to become pleasant. Unfortunately, I believe that  pleasant-feeling melee would be one that doesn't feel like I'm waving peculiarly-coloured oxygen.

[Traumtulpe]

15 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

completely freeing the player's movement also removes some decision making aspects

The opposite is true. If you cannot move, you have no choice to make. If you can move, you can choose to do so - or not - and in which direction.

[Loza03]

32 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

The opposite is true. If you cannot move, you have no choice to make. If you can move, you can choose to do so - or not - and in which direction.

Hypotheically, true. But in reality, this isn't the case.

The decision with less free movement is 'is it a good idea to attack now'. Which, granted, is a binary decision, but it has meaning. Attacking at a bad time generally results in taking damage because you can't avoid an incoming attack yourself. Not attacking at a good time means you've missed a chance to deal damage and potentially end the fight. This is pretty much the central decision making factor behind any combat system, no matter how simple or complex.

Hypothetically, free movement whilst attacking has 361 choices. 360 degrees of movement and one of not. But those choices are less meaningful, because the overwhelming majority are identical. Your damage output is usually the same irrespective of what you choose, and in most cases, if you were going to get hit by an attack whilst swinging away, you'd have gotten hit by it without swinging. More 'choices', but fewer actual meaningful decisions to be made.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Hypotheically, true. But in reality, this isn't the case.

The decision with less free movement is 'is it a good idea to attack now'. Which, granted, is a binary decision, but it has meaning. Attacking at a bad time generally results in taking damage because you can't avoid an incoming attack yourself. Not attacking at a good time means you've missed a chance to deal damage and potentially end the fight. This is pretty much the central decision making factor behind any combat system, no matter how simple or complex.

Hypothetically, free movement whilst attacking has 361 choices. 360 degrees of movement and one of not. But those choices are less meaningful, because the overwhelming majority are identical. Your damage output is usually the same irrespective of what you choose, and in most cases, if you were going to get hit by an attack whilst swinging away, you'd have gotten hit by it without swinging. More 'choices', but fewer actual meaningful decisions to be made.

why not going further? Imagine a combat system where your character turns into a tram and makes next 10 hits while walking forward 1 meter per hit. If you don't think carefully all of your combo - you'll hit the wall and be vulnerable . So much tactic, so much strategy :D

But seriously, this is Warframe where you can just nuke the room and move on, don't make it complicated. It's neither a Monster Hunter nor a Souls-like game. And games like DmC usually have a combo system consisting of directional slower but heavier attacks, faster but weaker, some spin attacks, same slow and quick - this would perfectly fit into the warframe. 2 spin?360 attacks in place and 2 directional with smaller and bigger movement involved. 

[Loza03]

48 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

But seriously, this is Warframe where you can just nuke the room and move on, don't make it complicated. It's neither a Monster Hunter nor a Souls-like game. 

Warframe's issues have stemmed from the game's systems being awkwardly crammed into being this kind of game despite the AI, damage system and mission/reward structures never being designed for it, and the game having major issues overcoming the incredibly simplistic gameplay which limits the scope of practical gameplay opportunities in updates. So, forgive me for not really buying that 'this is just what Warframe is, move on'.

Also, why do you keep nattering on about souls-likes?

58 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

And games like DmC usually have a combo system consisting of directional slower but heavier attacks, faster but weaker, some spin attacks, same slow and quick - this would perfectly fit into the warframe. 2 spin?360 attacks in place and 2 directional with smaller and bigger movement involved. 

And DMC doesn't let you move freely when attacking, to the point where one of the most iconic attacks (the stinger) is exactly the kind of thing that you're complaining about in this game. Which is why I used it as one of my examples in the first place, alongside the fact that it often engages in larger-scale combat scenarios with a multitude of enemies.

So, if that's what you think Warframe's combat should be, then grand, we're in agreement.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Could every stance be like:
combo 1 - spam melee button - combo in place standing still
combo 2 - spam melee + block - combo in place standing still
combo 3 - spam melee + ANY direction - moving combo to that direction
combo 4 - spam melee + block +ANY direction - combo that has ONLY gap closing moves with more or less the same distance in the direction you want

This should be by default when they changed to new system.

As for combo 2 it could be little forgiving. I mean it can move (e.g. Bullet's dance moves you to the sides). Still... there should be difference between directinal combos that moves you and non-dicrectional combos that shouldn't move you (that much).

 

As for your idea, in my opinion there are 3 things that should be fixed. Later points are less important, in my opinion.

1. Stances have mixed forward & non-forward combos. For example Bullet dance Forward combo slashes around you not moving your frame; Standing combo looks like it can move forward (and backward) but it just stands here. So, such combos should be swapped or changed.
2. No backward combos. It should use forward combos if possible. They could add backward combos (from other moves) to it if neccessary.
3. Free movement. As you noted, frame should be able to move in any direction.

 

As for how to do it, I think it would be nice if we had some sort of DIY stances so we can fix stances ourselves. Here is my topic (not sure why it's in fanzone not in Suggestion where I have posted it...):

 

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

As for what their purpose is, in part, a balance thing. It's the same point as why harder hitting weapons have a slower firing rate, or less accuracy or scarcer ammo, bigger melee weapons swing slower and leave you more vulnerable, but hit a wider arc. This fact makes gives different weapons different feels and roles. If every weapon's a hypersonic 360 blender, then there's no meaningful decision making.

Sadly melees in this game are not very complex. Most of them are doing the same thing (hitting a target) and moving. If your weapon has weird movement you can simply change it into another weapon type. There are probably 10-30 weapon or weapon types with unique features.

Guns (or in general Primary/Secondary) have more variety.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Additionally, completely freeing the player's movement also removes some decision making aspects, since unrestricted movement means attacks have fewer drawbacks.

It removes some potential drawbacs but it could introduce another drawbacks. In the Prince of Persia 2008:

Spoiler

You can attack with 3 different attack types, jump and block (for simplicity).

You can do probably anything with first enemies.

Later, certain enemies are immune to certain attacks or have state (in this state they are immune to all attacks but one certain attack that changes that state).

This POP has quick time events with, as fair I remember, 4 keys.

 

46 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The decision with less free movement is 'is it a good idea to attack now'. Which, granted, is a binary decision, but it has meaning. Attacking at a bad time generally results in taking damage because you can't avoid an incoming attack yourself. Not attacking at a good time means you've missed a chance to deal damage and potentially end the fight. This is pretty much the central decision making factor behind any combat system, no matter how simple or complex.

The same goes with more free movement of POP

Spoiler

In certain state if you attack with your partner Elike, enemy will throw here, making you unable to fight with her for some time.

 

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

 

Hypothetically, free movement whilst attacking has 361 choices. 360 degrees of movement and one of not. But those choices are less meaningful, because the overwhelming majority are identical. Your damage output is usually the same irrespective of what you choose, and in most cases, if you were going to get hit by an attack whilst swinging away, you'd have gotten hit by it without swinging. More 'choices', but fewer actual meaningful decisions to be made.

Hmm... isn't it the same with something like souls like? Every step is one choice and you can rotate with 360 degrees?

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, quxier said:

Sadly melees in this game are not very complex. Most of them are doing the same thing (hitting a target) and moving. If your weapon has weird movement you can simply change it into another weapon type. There are probably 10-30 weapon or weapon types with unique features.

Guns (or in general Primary/Secondary) have more variety.

Which is really a shame to be honest. I got into the game due to being teased with a robust melee combat system, and whilst 2.0 had its flaws and probably was overcomplicated and seperate for the kind of game WF is trying to be (same kind of thing I said about mechanics being 'awkwardly crammed') I think that 3.0 errs too far in the other direction. It's too simple for an aspect of the game that's this important. I mean, the game presents melee front and center in most marketing material, and it's one of the aspects that sets it apart from other shooters on the market, but as it is, melee lacks any crunch.

As for Prince of Persia, I've not played it so I'm not entirely, though I must say, looking through a longplay, it's... not exactly impressing me with it's combat. Which, granted, seems more of a platforming focused game, so that's fine. It might be due to that game having its own balancing issues.

[Tyreaus]

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

It's a component of the 'melee as mindless spam' problem.

I disagree.

In practice, if you're rooted to the ground while using melee, you're either adjusting microscopic position between swings (the same way as done during swings with free movement), or you're adjusting macroscopic positioning with jumps and rolls and the like (which happens regardless, because free melee movement isn't going to outpace parkour).

The sticking point, besides the latter having the same "non-mindlessness" either way, is that the forward movement difference between many rooted / non-rooted combos isn't that great. It's there, but not huge. The main thing rooted combos take away is lateral movement, which is the sort of thing you wouldn't utilize if you were just mindlessly spamming.

Basically, because rooted combos often move us forward, and "mindless spam" is about moving forward, there's a much more negligible difference between the two. The bigger difference is how well one's able to position sideways, something not considered if you're just windmilling forward.

(Also, with regards to Devil May Cry at least, that's a much more weighted / less flighty system. DMC characters flat out don't float and fly the same way and speed Warframes do - guard flying is the closest, and IIRC, it was based on buggy physics. It makes it so there's a much smaller "mobility gap" between attacking and moving in DMC. It doesn't hurt that that game is based around that combat system, with telegraphs aplenty, decently comboable targets, and a lack of things like hitscan enemies popping off from the other end of the room to take off half your health in a moment's notice.)

[Scar.brother.help.me]

29 minutes ago, quxier said:

As for how to do it, I think it would be nice if we had some sort of DIY stances so we can fix stances ourselves. Here is my topic (not sure why it's in fanzone not in Suggestion where I have posted it...):

I've checked your thread, a nice Idea about own combo builder but we talk about pretty different things, my main complain is exactly about movement while performing combos. I want some standartisation of melee system and melee 2.99 is a great work, don't get me wrong, with all the flaws it is way better that mele 2.0

------------------------

I've seen a few Warframe creators moking on DE about how they present something like a new ghoul SAWblade and react to some cool animation and be like "AWWHH ITSSSOKUUUUULLL!!!11" And don't get me wrong - it looks cool, I can tell they've put a lot of work into those animations and proud of it. But I look at it and think "how the fk am i supposed to hit enemies with that?" So all that cool animations make it clumsy to use when you can't control your legs.
 Imagine if you were making a step forward after every shot - does it sound logical? or walking in cirlces while unloading your Supra Vandal's magazine, or making a little forward leap with each Kuva Brama shot.

[Loza03]

4 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I disagree.

In practice, if you're rooted to the ground while using melee, you're either adjusting microscopic position between swings (the same way as done during swings with free movement), or you're adjusting macroscopic positioning with jumps and rolls and the like (which happens regardless, because free melee movement isn't going to outpace parkour).

The latter happens irrespective of whether it uses a normal melee system (because, seriously, I really do struggle to think of games outside of Warframe and Jedi Knight that use a system like this) or not, so that's moot. You can't use melee attacks whilst in the middle of a jump animation or roll. In terms of the second, does that actually happen, and is it meaningful? The claim is that you're constantly making micro-adjustments, but I've never seen this be the case for any footage of this form of gameplay or on the occasions when I have used it. Granted, this may be due to Warframe's larger design philosophy, which consistently and often significantly rewards lower-skill gameplay more than higher-skill alternatives. Still, I don't particularly see this point in Warframe's specific case, or overall. If you have to freely move whilst also freely attack, I can't particularly see any major reasons to not be attacking all the time, which is a problem as that make 'always be attacking' a far more viable solution in combat than most, as by making positioning easier, it makes any individual decision made when positioning less impactful.

18 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

The sticking point, besides the latter having the same "non-mindlessness" either way, is that the forward movement difference between many rooted / non-rooted combos isn't that great. It's there, but not huge. The main thing rooted combos take away is lateral movement, which is the sort of thing you wouldn't utilize if you were just mindlessly spamming.

In order to test this hypothesis, I grabbed my Guandao, and tested the speed of it's base combo. Without input, it has movement, but also allows free movement. Identical builds (for attack speed, primed fury and quickening) and same warframe, I ran three tests by testing how long it'd take to cross the Ballroom simulacrum from its widest point. No input, walking speed, and sprinting. Sprinting was about 9 seconds, walking was about 12, no input was around 37.

I think it is reasonable to suggest that the forward movement difference between base animations and free movement is pretty substantial.

38 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

(Also, with regards to Devil May Cry at least, that's a much more weighted / less flighty system. DMC characters flat out don't float and fly the same way and speed Warframes do - guard flying is the closest, and IIRC, it was based on buggy physics. It makes it so there's a much smaller "mobility gap" between attacking and moving in DMC. It doesn't hurt that that game is based around that combat system, with telegraphs aplenty, decently comboable targets, and a lack of things like hitscan enemies popping off from the other end of the room to take off half your health in a moment's notice.)

I'm well aware of the differences between DMC and Warframe, but as I said, that's honestly just the tip of the iceberg. Kingdom Hearts works on a similar system, and that's absolutely a game that you spend a good chunk of the endgame flying around in. And, to be honest, this way of working is what Warframe predominately uses. Weapons with completely uprooted combos are the minority. 

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

I think that 3.0 errs too far in the other direction.

Previous melee system had random combos. This one has swapped combos. Still... I at least don't have to remember combos so it's plus for the newest system.

53 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

I've checked your thread, a nice Idea about own combo builder but we talk about pretty different things, my main complain is exactly about movement while performing combos. I want some standartisation of melee system and melee 2.99 is a great work, don't get me wrong, with all the flaws it is way better that mele 2.0

Yeah, it would only fix 1st issue.

53 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

I've seen a few Warframe creators moking on DE about how they present something like a new ghoul SAWblade and react to some cool animation and be like "AWWHH ITSSSOKUUUUULLL!!!11" And don't get me wrong - it looks cool, I can tell they've put a lot of work into those animations and proud of it. But I look at it and think "how the fk am i supposed to hit enemies with that?" So all that cool animations make it clumsy to use when you can't control your legs.
 Imagine if you were making a step forward after every shot - does it sound logical? or walking in cirlces while unloading your Supra Vandal's magazine, or making a little forward leap with each Kuva Brama shot.

Animation & art in this game is nice but gameplay wise it's... not good.I agree (more or less) with your 4 points.

 

[Kainosh]

5 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

I want to control where my warframe is moving.

Looks like some "Fortnite" kind of thing.....

Sorry, but I prefer beautiful, full body animations (Prince of Persia, Devil may cry and such) and I can deal with any movement it results in.  

 

I agree that some stances have enormous amounts of "dash"....but that's no reason to degrade TPS melee into a FPS melee.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

54 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

Looks like some "Fortnite" kind of thing.....

Sorry, but I prefer beautiful, full body animations (Prince of Persia, Devil may cry and such) and I can deal with any movement it results in.  

 

I agree that some stances have enormous amounts of "dash"....but that's no reason to degrade TPS melee into a FPS melee.

here is my point - Warframe is a horde-shooter, devs just don't want to move away from it. The result is that you need to deal with dumb horde of paper enemies. I haven't played PoP (except old 2d game) and DMC but I can understand your point if the game is like Dark Souls, where you can't fight more than one enemy normally and you choose your weapon, you learn it and use some moves in the open, some in a narrow corridoor, you know exactly when and where a charged attack will land and stagger an enemy, will it be able to hit 2 enemies and stunlock them or miss and be open for some heavy punnishment. But there are no Mods there, you can't slap on Primed reach and make your dagger 3 times longer, you know exactly how far your weapon can touch same as attack speed mods and buffs that turn your BEAUTIFUL stances into an epileptic seizure. We play another game here and the more comfotable it is to deal with crowds farming stuff the less annoying it is.
If the day comes where we get some kind of mini-boss 1-by-1 extermination missions - I will be on your side probably. But even in that case it only matters in 1 on 1 duels, when you jump those enemies as 4 - there is no point in counting steps and calculating swings :3

[Andele3025]

TLDR: Full movement control in players hands is a fundamental requirement for the existence of anything above skill floor in games that dont go for easy mode (lockon).

Certain one off attacks may have animation locks (like all static block or some heavy attacks could/should), but current mega gutted melee (since more stances ended up without free movement than what used to be before or at least lost keyboard steer during forward animation locks) is as if someone put physics ragdolls (aka not axis locked lift/push) on every hit in the already mentioned DMC control (on that note why isnt lift just x axis locked?) or took out the Musou gague, Dash variants and horizontal attacks out of Dynasty Warriors.

Tho personally id change

15 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

combo 1 - spam melee button - combo in place standing still
combo 2 - spam melee + block - combo in place standing still
combo 3 - spam melee + ANY direction - moving combo to that direction
combo 4 - spam melee + block +ANY direction - combo that has ONLY gap closing moves with more or less the same distance in the direction you want

to

Base combo - Melee+w/a/d = Free movement base attacks with 0.4 to 2x dps multiplier over chain

Dash combo - Melee+Block+w/a/d+optional shift = Mid length directional dash, sprinting increases distance in same duration/buffs speed as it used to in melee 2.0; a/d cause keyboard turn to 45 degrees from camera angle

Static combo - Melee+no input or s = animation locked static attack with 1.5 minimum but average 3.3x dps multi and outliers going up to 5x(instead of current 4x, where outliers are 8x)

Stance Special - Melee+Block+no input or s = whatever cool move the stance would/should have (Tempo Royale slow slam, Defiled Snapdragon pull, etc) with high multi but technically worse dps than static combo

[TheLexiConArtist]

Call me a 'mindless spammer' if you will, but stances are far too often just annoyingly awkward to work with. That's why I'm dreading DE reducing attack speed in mods with the rework, it's the only way they become tolerable.

Janky awkward pauses (and poses) mid-combo? Might look 'stylish' but it's not bloody useful. At least with high speed it's over sooner.

Bad strikes in mid-combo with weird and unhelpful hitboxes? Those are pretty much just dud hits, but there's usually a high-multiplier strike after them that can connect reliably, so I just want to speed through the chaff to get to what works.

 

At least the old quick-melee was fluidly contiguous.

[Kainosh]

16 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

I can understand your point if the game is like Dark Souls, where you can't fight more than one enemy normally

I see you have not played any decent slashers.   Of course you would feel unfamiliar with this system.   I suggest you play some, really.  Dark Souls...it doesn't have good combat tbh. 

In both PoP (3D ones) and DmC you will quite often face more than one. Usually its 4-6 enemies (depends on their class).   

Enemy amounts are quite comparable.  

 

BTW, amount of enemies has nothing to do with Animations.   If your DS character had much more armor and HP, and enemies were weaker in general and came in larger numbers, that would be a "horde slasher".  

Basically, its numbers that make difference, not animations.   

 

16 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

make your dagger 3 times longer, you know exactly how far your weapon can touch same as attack speed mods and buffs that turn your BEAUTIFUL stances into an epileptic seizure.

Well, that's your choice.  Nobody forces you to "seizure" around with a long ass dagger.   

I prefer to do it with style, and I don't want my character's legs to run sideways, while upper body attacks forward.  Can you even comprehend how stupid and lame that would look?

16 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

We play another game here and the more comfotable it is to deal with crowds farming stuff the less annoying it is.

You don't have that much support to "we" me around.  

 

To me it seem like You misunderstand Warframe.   Warframe is the game of Variety.  Melee exists not to "make farming easy and comfortable".  Its here to give you a different killing method.   And melee does kill.  Good enough to even deserve a nerf.

[(PSN)FromOtherSpace]

Stupid question : Does all weapon without Stance goes as much forward than "stanced" ones?

 

To hit something efficiently you can't move freely, with a sword, with a knife or any weapons. Even punch and kicks need you to "follow their path" to be efficient. I know WF is not a simulation but this little concession to reality make the game more immersive (physic and anatomy exist...)

DE have chosen to make Hongkongesque stances, pretty, not martialy accurate but kind of. So when we see a rotation, even a crazy, more dancing than fighting one, the weight "follow this path". Knowing how these stances work, is our "job". We have to know our frames and our weapons. If some weapons/stance feel too awful for us, we can bring an other one. (I don't remember which Glaive stance have a ton of buff but swing all over the place except in front. Beautiful to see one time, then I remove it and stick to the other)

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Guys, I am ok with some moving combos, the ones that are supposed to close gaps, but I need just something to stand still and not jump around like a monkey and some move-set to follow the moving enemy without randomly appearing behind their backs. More so, if it was not much to ask for - I'd prefer to have a switch in options "free my legs" so that I can play my way and you can go on suffering with style.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2021-06-18 at 7:48 AM, (PSN)FromOtherSpace said:

Stupid question : Does all weapon without Stance goes as much forward than "stanced" ones?

It varies.   The only thing I can say is none of them are what I'd call "gap closers", or even close to it like some stance combos are

It's worth a try if too much forward stance movement is driving you nuts, and you don't mind sacrificing damage and a lot of pretty animations.

On 2021-06-18 at 7:48 AM, (PSN)FromOtherSpace said:

If some weapons/stance feel too awful for us, we can bring an other one.

I would help a lot if every weapon class had three or more well differentiated stance choices.    But many are stuck with one or two, and sometimes they don't vary much.