The Dev Workshop that Broke the Camels Back

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Minute schrieb (PSN)JaxsonHammerkawk:

Lmao, i think you missed the mark bud

No, I really don’t think I did, guy who doesn’t know what „originally“ means.

[MouadSaqui]

I think DE should consider adding more "parented mods" as they call them for melee, buffing the gladiator set of mods would be appreciated, problem solved ! 

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb -AncientWarrior-:

you are a genius ! 

I’m serious. You’re complaining that you’d need to play Steel Path to get „balanced weapons“ when in truth you really have no reason to care about this unless you play Steel Path. Guns are fine in low level content.

[(PSN)AEtherCrow]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

And what about players like me, who think reigning in the more excessively powerful parts of our arsenal is for the best when it comes to the game's long-term health?

here's the thing, I get where you're coming from when it comes to weapons outclassing all others in their category even the divide to the melee vs gun but let's look at it as the whole picture.

there a a metric ton of guns and melee weapons however let's say roughly 5% of them are meta or viable in high end content, out of that 5% you have maybe 15-20 weapons that stand out as most used.  So what makes the other weapons not used? the fact they're not strong enough on their own to keep up with the enemies armor/health/shield gains.  

Do I think it's a good idea to reign in the power of certain weapons? Some yes some weapons on their release needed a nerf badly? Kuva Bramma is a perfect example of a weapon that was too much you basically flashbanged your screen at certain distances and everything was a huge clusterbomb. I also believe that weapons the bad weapons like latron braton etc they need to be buffed or what I had said previously "reworked" if you just nerf one aspect of the game to make another seem better in comparison that will not work, DE has been doing that for roughly 3 years now and it has not worked. 

 

melee is NOT overpowered but again if you compare that too things that are underperforming such as guns you are able to paint a very very bad narrative of oh maybe melee is overpowered.

 

let me ask you this how would nerfing melee improve guns?

 

 

[Krankbert]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb (PSN)AEtherCrow:

 

 

let me ask you this how would nerfing melee improve guns?

 

 

The strength of things is relative. Guns are bad relative to the alternative options. Nerfing melee will solve this just as well as buffing guns. The only difference is that the game will end up being slightly harder or slightly easier.

[(NSW)Greybones]

16 minutes ago, (PSN)JaxsonHammerkawk said:

DE is a business, they employ people, they need a constant revenue stream. Which, i guess, means band aid fixes, and forgotten bugs. But i wish that weren't the case. 

We all wish this wasn’t the case. You’re not the only one affected by the fact that DE have to make a decision on what they approach and  how they’ll approach it. Even DE have lamented the fact that their resources have them focusing on what’s in Warframe in a cyclical way; first one thing, then another, until it comes full circle to the oldest content that hasn’t been touched in literal years (I'm looking forward to that Grineer tileset update)

[(PSN)AEtherCrow]

Just now, Krankbert said:

Guns are bad relative to the alternative options. Nerfing melee will solve this just as well as buffing guns. The only difference is that the game will end up being slightly harder or slightly easier.

I think you missed the rest of my post

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PSN)AEtherCrow:

I think you missed the rest of my post

If you don’t have something to post, don’t post.

[(PSN)JaxsonHammerkawk]

7 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

The strength of things is relative. Guns are bad relative to the alternative options. Nerfing melee will solve this just as well as buffing guns. The only difference is that the game will end up being slightly harder or slightly easier.

Here's your mistake: guns are bad relative to Steel Path enemies. Nerfing melee does not solve that problem. 

[(PSN)AEtherCrow]

Just now, Krankbert said:

If you don’t have a response, don’t respond.

I do have a response here it is.

 

Melee will get nerfed, melee will still outshine guns all day, guns will still be in the same spot as they are now in a few weeks when everyone realizes that DE using this non existent issue of melee they created to make an artificial grind wall the thing people wanted was guns to be buffed and viable, not melee to be nerfed.

some of the mod nerf's like fury and berserker not being stackable anymore is understandable but a lot of other changes they said/not said with their dev workshop has people concerned like anything that involves DE touching the game.

the "warframe" community has proven time and time again that something good, nerfed is still better than something bad that is buffed that's why this entire topic is an issue so your previous response to me is just flat out wrong like 100% wrong.

Like rhino's roar for helmith, Like Condition overload before it's nerf before like daggers before their nerf or like any number of warframes/warframe abilities that are gutted to make something else better. people just use the same warframes with good but nerfed abilities 

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Minute schrieb (PSN)JaxsonHammerkawk:

Here's your mistake: guns are bad relative to Steel Path enemies. Nerfing melee does not solve that problem. 

Really. And without comparing guns to melee weapons, with no frame of reference, how are you going to tell that they’re bad? 

[(PSN)AEtherCrow]

1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

Really. And without comparing guns to melee weapons, with no frame of reference, how are you going to tell that they’re bad? 

easy guns are bad and we know this because shooting the enemy doesn't work and we run out of ammo before we can kill anything :^)

then are forced to crutch on melee to actually kill something.

[Krankbert]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb (PSN)AEtherCrow:

I do have a response here it is.

 

Melee will get nerfed, melee will still outshine guns all day, guns will still be in the same spot as they are now in a few weeks when everyone realizes that DE using this non existent issue of melee they created to make an artificial grind wall the thing people wanted was guns to be buffed and viable, not melee to be nerfed.

some of the mod nerf's like fury and berserker not being stackable anymore is understandable but a lot of other changes they said/not said with their dev workshop has people concerned like anything that involves DE touching the game.

the "warframe" community has proven time and time again that something good, nerfed is still better than something bad that is buffed that's why this entire topic is an issue so your previous response to me is just flat out wrong like 100% wrong.

Like rhino's roar for helmith, Like Condition overload before it's nerf before like daggers before their nerf or like any number of warframes/warframe abilities that are gutted to make something else better. people just use the same warframes with good but nerfed abilities 

That Helminth stuff you mention was nonsensical fearmongering that people talked about when the Helminth stuff was announced, and that I have never seen anyone mention again since it was released. It was just something people said to maybe get a nerf taken back, and then never mentioned again. So thanks for bringing it up, that fits into this thread perfectly.

[Krankbert]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb (PSN)AEtherCrow:

easy guns are bad and we know this because shooting the enemy doesn't work and we run out of ammo before we can kill anything :^)

then are forced to crutch on melee to actually kill something.

Guns aren’t that bad. This is either ludicrous hyperbole or you’re really really bad at the game. Either way, it’s not contributing anything to this thread, and I really don’t care if that’s because you can’t post anything worth reading or just chose not to.

[Tesseract7777]

1 minute ago, (PSN)AEtherCrow said:

easy guns are bad and we know this because shooting the enemy doesn't work and we run out of ammo before we can kill anything :^)

then are forced to crutch on melee to actually kill something.

Maybe you need to work on your modding skills. 

[(PSN)AEtherCrow]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Maybe you need to work on your modding skills. 

show me a clip of you killing a level 300 steel path enemy with less than 30 rounds of a clip in a gun, no melee no warframe abilities, go on I'm waiting.

[Tesseract7777]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)AEtherCrow said:

show me a clip of you killing a level 300 steel path enemy with less than 30 rounds of a clip in a gun, no melee no warframe abilities, go on I'm waiting.

[(NSW)Greybones]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)AEtherCrow said:

show me a clip of you killing a level 300 steel path enemy with less than 30 rounds of a clip in a gun, no melee no warframe abilities, go on I'm waiting.

When do enemies get to 300 in Steel Path? I haven’t unlocked it yet and am curious about the rate of level increase

[Krankbert]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb (PSN)AEtherCrow:

show me a clip of you killing a level 300 steel path enemy with less than 30 rounds of a clip in a gun, no melee no warframe abilities, go on I'm waiting.

What makes you think that’s not how it’s supposed to go. There is not a single mission in the game that requires you to beat those kinds of enemies. What makes you think that you’re supposed to beat those enemies with guns alone other than the fact that you can do it with melee.

[Aldain]

12 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Maybe you need to work on your modding skills. 

I'm gonna be honest, even well modded I wouldn't want to use say, a Quellor against Steel Path Grineer simply because rapid fire weapons aren't much better than semi-auto ones when it comes to keeping kills up.

That's more the problem than anything, it might be doable, but I'd say it isn't entirely practical, and DE's changes won't suddenly make low damage-per-bullet weapons feel good to use even if it gets cranked up 360%.

Even modding can't keep up honestly, when the inherent nature of the gun is at odds with the game design, especially things like Survival where kill speed is outright needed, and enemies do tons of damage back so focusing on well aimed consecutive headshots can be near suicidal.

I'm also saying this as a guy who loves the Quellor to death, it just isn't a good choice once eHP starts creeping up past the maximum theoretical DPS.

Edit: Also a lot of Primary mods are kind of not that good...hell the Multishot mod doesn't even get to 100%, that's why I and many others are saying that the Galvanized ones are straight up power creep.

[Tesseract7777]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I'm gonna be honest, even well modded I wouldn't want to use say, a Quellor against Steel Path Grineer simply because rapid fire weapons aren't much better than semi-auto ones when it comes to keeping kills up.

That's more the problem than anything, it might be doable, but I'd say it isn't entirely practical, and DE's changes won't suddenly make low damage-per-bullet weapons feel good to use even if it gets cranked up 360%.

Even modding can't keep up honestly, when the inherent nature of the gun is at odds with the game design, especially things like Survival where kill speed is outright needed, and enemies do tons of damage back so focusing on well aimed consecutive headshots can be near suicidal.

I'm also saying this as a guy who loves the Quellor to death, it just isn't a good choice once eHP starts creeping up past the maximum theoretical DPS.

Edit: Also a lot of Primary mods are kind of not that good...hell the Multishot mod doesn't even get to 100%, that's why I and many others are saying that the Galvanized ones are straight up power creep.

I get what you are saying, you've got a lot of good nuance there. 

The reason I am being a little dismissive of the posts I am responding to, is because they are using completely blanket hyperbole and it is really silly, and it hurts their overall point. 

Yes, a lot of guns or types of gun modding do not do well in SP. 

But I could also give examples of certain ways you can mod guns to still perform well anyways. For example, slash procs don't care if they are melee or gun, they waste almost everything in no time if built right into the modding and you have the right weapon for it. 

Is melee better right now without argument? Of course. Do a lot of guns fall short on SP? Again, absolutely. 

But that doesn't that mean there are no viable guns or gun modding styles for SP based on which gun, what its stats are, what mods you are using, etc. etc.

 

[(PSN)AEtherCrow]

3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I'm gonna be honest, even well modded I wouldn't want to use say, a Quellor against Steel Path Grineer simply because rapid fire weapons aren't much better than semi-auto ones when it comes to keeping kills up.

That's more the problem than anything, it might be doable, but I'd say it isn't entirely practical, and DE's changes won't suddenly make low damage-per-bullet weapons feel good to use even if it gets cranked up 360%.

Even modding can't keep up honestly, when the inherent nature of the gun is at odds with the game design, especially things like Survival where kill speed is outright needed, and enemies do tons of damage back so focusing on well aimed consecutive headshots can be near suicidal.

I'm also saying this as a guy who loves the Quellor to death, it just isn't a good choice once eHP starts creeping up past the maximum theoretical DPS.

Edit: Also a lot of Primary mods are kind of not that good...hell the Multishot mod doesn't even get to 100%, that's why I and many others are saying that the Galvanized ones are straight up power creep.

agreed

6 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

When do enemies get to 300 in Steel Path? I haven’t unlocked it yet and am curious about the rate of level increase

doing Mot for about an hour  an hour and a half on Steel Path 

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, (PSN)AEtherCrow said:

doing Mot for about an hour  an hour and a half on Steel Path 

Cool cool, thanks.

That's a long ol' time to do a mission for. I probably won't get to that point

[Tesseract7777]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Cool cool, thanks.

That's a long ol' time to do a mission for. I probably won't get to that point

A lot of the most experienced vets don't bother. 

They could, but they don't, because they just don't think its fun. 

I've done long endurance runs back in the day to see if I could, but I have no desire to do them again lol. 

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

But I could also give examples of certain ways you can mod guns to still perform well anyways. For example, slash procs don't care if they are melee or gun, they waste almost everything in no time if built right into the modding and you have the right weapon for it. 

Is melee better right now without argument? Of course. Do a lot of guns fall short on SP? Again, absolutely. 

But that doesn't that mean there are no viable guns or gun modding styles for SP based on which gun, what its stats are, what mods you are using, etc. etc.

Oh yeah, I fully agree with that, I just wish that DE would have taken a look at root causes as to why more nuanced issues like Rapid-fire weapons and semi-autos have trouble instead of making a bunch of "on kill" mods/arcanes that dance around the issue instead.

I have no doubts that what they've introduced will technically increase the "viable" pool, but it will also mostly just make the already strong things even stronger.

Of course I shouldn't be surprised, they made the "Impact to Slash proc" conversion mods that just...so don't solve the issue.

Even then there is the omni-present issue of Primaries and Secondaries having severe struggles with mod space too, which compounds with hilariously overpriced things like Metal Augur (seriously why are punch-through mods so damn expensive?) and a lack of good hybrid mods to make up for the space constraints.

Not too sure why I'm typing out all this, guess I'm just frustrated with DE (and some of the community) missing the point where the imbalances stem from more than anything.