Weapon arcanes and Galvanised don't achieve what they should

[lukinu_u]

The initiative of buffing primary without simply bumping damage numbers is good and I'm totally for it, but I don't think the recently announced changes goes toward this direction, let me explain why.

So first, let's summarize  what these new things are :

• Weapons arcanes : arcanes that provide up to +360% damage and some small buffs on different kill conditions.
• Galvanized mods : slighly weaker version of existing mods, exept they grow stronger on each kill/headshot kill for a duration.

From there, even before diving into the details you can point out a big issue : everything is triggered on kill, which further increase the gap between good and bad weapons.
It means your weapon unnecessarily grow stronger if it can kill but won't get that buff if it can't kill, it's just unecessary snowball.
On top of that, since all conditions are on kill it means there is no interesting gameplay variations caused by the conditions of the mods you use and using multiple of these mods make no changes since they all trigger the same way.

Both issues can easily be solved by adding variations of each mods with different conditions. To encourage players using different conditions, each mod stat increase could be influenced by the condition difficulty and also restricted to one mod of each condition per weapon (so only one mod triggering on kill for example).
Here are a few examples of possible condition :

• Headshot (not kill) while in air 
• A stack for each enemy hit with a same shot (which would stack based on the previous shot, until the next shot)
• A stack for each successive hit on a same target (reset on hitting another enemy)
• Stack with distance traveled and reset on shot (like Volt passive)
• After reviving an ally / being revived
• While hidden (same condition as the x8 stealth damage multiplier)
• While above an enemy (with increase depending on the height difference)

Those are just a few examples but the possibility are endless. And the import thing to keep in mind is the way all those conditions might encourage different play styles instead of being "on kill" which basically mean "if your weapon is strong enough to kill".


So now, let's dive into details for each of the two systems :

Galvanised mods :
I'm starting with them because there is not much to say.
The only big concern I have is the way they are "sighly weaker" than normal mods if the condition isn't met instead of not being active like existing mods with conditions.
Making them stronger variant that stack with a condition like Condition Overload but with different conditions would make them interesting to play with, but here they are just direct upgrade of their normal counterpart and I don't think it's healthy for the game.

My proposed change is :
Keep the current max value of each mod, but make them start from 0 instead of being a "sighly weaker" version of the normal version.
Also change the condition for each mod according to the feedback about conditions above.


Weapons arcanes :
Those are a great initiative and are close to what we would expect from weapons stances (encouraging different playstyles), but they aren't enough to provide a meaningful change. Also, the idea of giving each of them a damage increase of +360% at max stack regardless of their duration and how they work is a smart move to make sure one isn't better than another, but it also mean you have less reason to play one that is harder to stack or stuff like that.

For this part, I will simply list what I would do for each of the arcanes. The changes might be a bit extremes, but it's mainly to show the philosophy behind it :
 

• Primary Merciless
  • Double magazine size and recoil
  • +100% swap speed
  • while trigger is held :
    +5% fire rate per second (stack up to +150%)
    +25% damage per second (stack up to +150%)
  • on kill :
    +100% ammo efficiency for 3s
    instantly reload your second weapon with 200% of the magazine size

The idea here is to replace the "kill to deal more damage" with a "shoot to deal more damage" with the damage/fire rate ramp up, but also with ammo efficiency that can lead to infinite magazine if used correctly. Pretty much turning any weapon into a machine gun.
 

• Primary Deadhead
  • Double damage and half firerate (same DPS)
  • +200% headshot multiplier
  • On headshot :
    -100% recoil for the next shot
    +200% multishot for the next shot
  • On headshot kill :
    enemies in a 10m around the kill go unalerted
    store overkill damages for the next shot

The idea here is to keep the "sharpshooter" style with a touch of stealth, but also reward headshots at different degree instead of kill only.
 

• Primary Dexterity
  • Freeze combo counter while weapon is held
  • Enemies hit by the weapon receive double damage from your melee weapons
  • After melee heavy attack :
    +75% damage per enemy hit for 3s (up to 5 enemies)
    +25% critical chance per enemy hit for 3s (up to 5 enemies)
  • On melee kill :
    instantly reload your primary weapon
    +200% status chance

The idea here is simply a melee support oriented layout that also get buffed by you melee to encourage playing both.

 

So I'm obviously not claiming this is perfect, but this is my view on the recently announced changes and additions to primary/secondary weapons, but I really feel like these slight changes could really improve the intended changes.
 

[Uhkretor]

... I'm just going to be that genius level IQ "engineer" guy and just wait for the update to be released and see if Galvanized mods are better or not...

[vanaukas]

1 hour ago, Uhkretor said:

... I'm just going to be that genius level IQ "engineer" guy and just wait for the update to be released and see if Galvanized mods are better or not...

How dare you to make sense, armchair devs needs to do reworks based on what they think, not about facts!

[motorfirebox]

2 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

How dare you to make sense, armchair devs needs to do reworks based on what they think, not about facts!

I mean, it doesn't take a tarot reading to see the problem with trying to get kills on Steel Path with what are effectively lower-ranked versions of existing mods.

[vanaukas]

1 minute ago, motorfirebox said:

I mean, it doesn't take a tarot reading to see the problem with trying to get kills on Steel Path with what are effectively lower-ranked versions of existing mods.

Right, because everyone melts things with just one weapon, it's not like the devs are promoting the usage of the 3 weapons to achieve the kills, not at all, they want you to shoot just one until the magazine is empty. It's not like the meta on melee was priming wenemies with a high SC weapon and then abuse CO on melee to ahieve big numbers, no no no

[DrivaMain]

"On Kill" not only makes it not worth it on high level, it also encourages "Kill stealing". You want to charge your galvan mod on that enemy who is on it's knees but suddenly your "teammate" yoinks the kill from you.

Here are some of the condition changes that I think may alleviate those issues. 

• Galvanized Scope and Galvanized Hell 
  • On Headshot Kill removed.
  • It's now replaced with "On Headshot while aiming".
• Galvanized Chamber, Galvanized Hell, and Galvanized Diffusion.
  • On Kill removed
  • It's now replaced with "On Hit". 

Galvanized status mod condition can stay because allowing users to get +80% CO stack too easily seems to be too strong. 

[motorfirebox]

10 hours ago, vanaukas said:

Right, because everyone melts things with just one weapon, it's not like the devs are promoting the usage of the 3 weapons to achieve the kills, not at all, they want you to shoot just one until the magazine is empty. It's not like the meta on melee was priming wenemies with a high SC weapon and then abuse CO on melee to ahieve big numbers, no no no

How does the addition of these new on-kill mods and arcanes promote that? And yes, everything does melt with just one weapon, so long as it's a melee weapon. There are more and less effective ways to do that, but the whole point of these mods and arcanes is to bring gunplay closer to on-par with melee. Problem being, they way these mods and arcanes work, you do have to shoot just one weapon until the magazine or you may as well not bother equipping them in the first place.

[Teridax68]

I think the real reason why these new arcanes and mods won't achieve their intended purpose is because they'll inflict the same problem upon us as melee weapons now: because we get more power for committing to a single weapon, we get incentivized more and more to stick to just weapon in combat, and disincentivized to switch to other weapons for fear of losing our stacks. This was the case with melee weapons and their combo counter+Blood Rush, and now it's going to be the case with guns with these new items. Time will tell which weapon class comes out on top, but it's likely the problem will become even worse than it is now.

This is also why I'm not the biggest fan of the changes listed in the OP, because they still rely on a stacking mechanic: while basing the stacks on actions other than kills I think is a net improvement (it avoids kill stealing and making these win-harder mods that would amplify the gap between strongest and weakest weapons), there would still be the core problem of the stacking buffs mainly affecting the weapon you're using. Some of the mechanics proposed in the OP help with this, but ultimately that still clashes with a core gameplay loop that does not encourage fluidly using whichever weapon is appropriate on the fly.

With this in mind, I think there are two possible directions that could help with this: one would be to have these stacking bonuses benefit all weapons, not just the one equipped, and the other could be to avoid the stacking mechanic and instead have all these weapons reward skilful play with instant amounts of power. If different classes of weapons specialize in different ranges of actions (e.g. consecutive shots with primaries, air shots with secondaries, hits from above with melee weapons), this could naturally create different situations on the fly where one weapon, then another, would become most useful.

[lukinu_u]

Il y a 1 heure, Teridax68 a dit :

If different classes of weapons specialize in different ranges of actions (e.g. consecutive shots with primaries, air shots with secondaries, hits from above with melee weapons), this could naturally create different situations on the fly where one weapon, then another, would become most useful.

I like this idea.

In that philosophy, maybe some mods that buff other weapons to encourage switching could be interesting, things like :

• +60% gun damages for each melee hit (up to 5x) for the next shot
• x% of your damage done by guns while in air are stored (with a cap) for your next melee attack
• headshots instantly switch weapons and give them +200% headshot damage and +100% ammo efficiency for 2s

[(XBOX)BigLithuanian]

Truthfully some of these (the ones DE made specifically) galvanized mods really don’t seem to balance out the fact that melee is supposedly far better than primary and secondary weapons. To me it seems that these mods will further the gap in the opposite direction, because reading what DE had in mind for these new mods and arcanes seems like it would make already powerful primary and secondary critical or normal/elemental damage weapon builds insanely destructive. Thus making them better than melee and creating a new issue. Also, another problem is that you don’t need to use the meta melee mods to have a good melee build. I do not have condition overload and I don’t use the other ones but my Orthos Prime is still an effective weapon which I use when appropriate, just like for my primary and secondary weapons. They all are great for what they should be in my build and all are very good and (in my eyes) equally powerful (depending on the enemy and the distance of course). If they really wish to balance out melee they could have just stuck with the reworking of the meta melee mods they will do (if I recall correctly) instead of providing mods that will take primary and secondary weapon builds to an insane new level that will outclass everything 

[Raso719]

Just bump the damage of all fire arms up across the board. It's not that flipping hard. Irt really isn't. We didn't need to nerf melee and then punish people for equipping melee on top of all of this. 

I feel like I'm on crazy pills here. I feel like this is so unbelievably simple to figure out. Like, you shouldn't even need special ed kindergarten levels of big brain to figure this out. Buff damage across the board, add punch through to most firearms, add something that allows firearms to bypass damage reduction or armor (maybe inside of their fallout?) or just reduce the mindless damage absorption of enemies and increase the quantity and speed of enemy spawns so roughly the same total HP or armor is on screen at the same time as before. 

IT'S. NOT. THAT. EFFING. HARD. 

IT. DOESN'T. HAVE. TO. BE. THIS. COMPLICATED. 

Am I the only one who feels like they have to question if they are the dumb one over how needlessly convoluted this entire "fix" is?

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Guns were perfectly fine until the Steel Path dropped with multiplied armor values.

These arcanes are nothing more than a numbers chase to negate the buffed health and armor values. 

[thats_rudiculous_07]

They shouldve made guns more depth rather than shallow because theirs alot of mods that are required. Their are alot of mods that have gimmicks  which arent used which is unfortunate. The new mods are just band aids

[Tiltskillet]

16 hours ago, Raso719 said:

 

I feel like I'm on crazy pills here. I feel like this is so unbelievably simple to figure out. Like, you shouldn't even need special ed kindergarten levels of big brain to figure this out. Buff damage across the board, add punch through to most firearms

But these ideas don't add grind.

(I disagree that an across the board ranged damage increase would have been a great solution anyway.  But that's essentially what they went with--just with hoops to jump through, and a few melee nerfs.  I like a few of your other ideas though.  But this all feels rather futile now.)