Honest question - What's the game design point of making new frames in the current state of the game (other than monetary reasons)

[Deminisis]

I feel like constant new frame releases tend to have diminishing returns. Frames are more unique overall than the hundreds of weapons that come out, but plenty of people are going to try out new frames and compare their viability to existing ones.

Yareli doesn't seem to have anything in her kit unique enough to justify me using her more than getting the mastery points and then throwing her into the ship meat wall.

Exceptions over the last couple years (For me) would be Wisp and Sevagoth, since they offer mechanics that are useful and unique to existing frames.

It's still making money, but I firmly believe Gun and Melee oversaturation is a problem, and maybe in 2030 with 100+ frames we'll have the same problem.

[Galuf]

The engine doesn't change much so for DE it is easier and easier releasing frames. Prime access is money income, a new frame results in a ton of platinum destruction, everytime you potato something, build loadout slots or even straight buy frames from market, it is money for DE at the end of the day. Those regular frame releases are a massive chunk of actual DE income.

I'm going to be very honest, frames don't excite me at all anymore. I'm a Gara main and I haven't logged in to even farm the prime, I have the 2 last frames still in my foundry and don't have the courage yet to try them. I played a day for the rj rework, and the last time I got invested in content was for heart of deimos last year ^^'.

I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this, the hype of frames/weapons gradually fades over years. I still come around to check if there is something fun to do or what direction the game is taking but I don't even log in daily because I don't want to give DE metrics for time gated prime mods and subpar mastery fodders. Warframe is doing great because console people seem like predominant now(they have a better economy on PS and XboX it seems than we have on PC so it probably means that there are more players as well, few years ago it was not at all the case wich console economy beeing laughable and PC economy beeing more or less like now) but it is a more "younger" playerbase(got access to the game later), it will eventually do the same for them.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Shift? I never said shift.

Its doable by either improving (training) or adding personnel to the lacking department.  A and B might (and probably will) get some sort of trim here and there as a result.

That's basic company management and must be done by HR department...if DE have such a thing.   Having D limping like that is not normal.

Which would still cost more since part of the revenue would get removed if you take away from the frame design department. Everything that has the potential to earn them money is of priority in the design. Content that is playable will never be more important than frames and vanity items, since playable content will never bring in money in this type of game since it is free of charge to play.

edit: And to be 100% fair, during normal years the content releases in WF are on par with most other games out there. If Anything I'd say hold back on new content and rework some of the old.

[Jarriaga]

I just found something very interesting that relates to this topic. It seems the art/concept for Yareli was made 2 years ago according to the designer's artstation portfolio:

Whether DE had approached the artist and secured the rights back then or if they did so recently we'll never know, but even her pose was translated to the game. I just wonder how many WF concepts are in the backburner waiting for a future release date with DE being constrained on time or technology rather than plain monetary needs.

[(XBOX)NuclearSquiddy]

12 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I just found something very interesting that relates to this topic. It seems the art/concept for Yareli was made 2 years ago according to the designer's artstation portfolio:

Whether DE had approached the artist and secured the rights back then or if they did so recently we'll never know, but even her pose was translated to the game. I just wonder how many WF concepts are in the backburner waiting for a future release date with DE being constrained on time or technology rather than plain monetary needs.

That is a fair point. They've probably invested into several new concepts, perhaps 5 by now. I remember in an interview with Tactical Potato and Scott, Scott mentioned they have 6 frames in the making (Garuda, Baruuk, Hildryn, Wisp, Gauss, Grendel). Which I believe was around the time Revenant was announced, making it 3 years ago, and the release window of those frames was 1 and a half years. But at last, they have to cut the cord at some point. or not if they want to make ridiculous amounts of capital (which they probably will since they're a company with money in mind)

[RyAn0099]

On 2021-07-02 at 5:09 PM, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

Rather than making carbon copies with a fresh coat of paint

just a question in my mind, do people still think protea is vauban copy cuz she has balls in her kit?

[(XBOX)NuclearSquiddy]

Just now, RyAn0099 said:

just a question in my mind, do people still think protea is vauban copy cuz she has balls in her kit?

It's more rather she is everything players wanted in a Vauban rework. Plus they share similar abilities and themes.

[RyAn0099]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

they share similar abilities and themes.

Does that make revenant and nezha a rhino copy?

[(XBOX)NuclearSquiddy]

6 hours ago, RyAn0099 said:

Does that make revenant and nezha a rhino copy?

They have like one ability that is similar, and they have their own different versions of invincibility. Not to mention they have radically different themes. 

[Jarriaga]

10 hours ago, RyAn0099 said:

Does that make revenant and nezha a rhino copy?

Ironically enough, original Nezha used to be a Rhino copy before his Pablo treatment in 2018. Before that rework, his Warding Halo was literally Iron Skin with lower values; it had the exact same mechanics and functionality.

[Zimzala]

Honest Answer - "Variety is the spice of life."

This question, from my POV, is like asking "Why are there not only three vehicle consumer designs, S/M/L?" or "Why are there so many colors of clothes available?"

The object is not design a specific set of playing pieces that can clear content with zero overlap or similarity, the object is to make fun things to play.

Variety makes things fun and interesting IME.

This is why I am baffled by people that just want to come into games, have someone else tell them what the most mathematically effective path is, follow that path, then think they finished the game and move on to the next...like the tourists that get off of a cruise ship, buy three t-shirts and think they 'experienced a new place'...when they just used the most boring tools to get to the end as fast as possible, experiencing none of teh flavor available, like going to Baskin & Robbins and only ever getting Vanilla.

Many of us enjoy fun variety and nuance.

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb Zimzala:

Honest Answer - "Variety is the spice of life."

This question, from my POV, is like asking "Why are there not only three vehicle consumer designs, S/M/L?" or "Why are there so many colors of clothes available?"

The object is not design a specific set of playing pieces that can clear content with zero overlap or similarity, the object is to make fun things to play.

Variety makes things fun and interesting IME.

This is why I am baffled by people that just want to come into games, have someone else tell them what the most mathematically effective path is, follow that path, then think they finished the game and move on to the next...like the tourists that get off of a cruise ship, buy three t-shirts and think they 'experienced a new place'...when they just used the most boring tools to get to the end as fast as possible, experiencing none of teh flavor available, like going to Baskin & Robbins and only ever getting Vanilla.

Many of if enjoy fun variety and nuance.

that's the point. even in 2014 the devs understood that: "new content = life!"

only new content and new possibilities keep the ship afloat. because there is absolutely no reason to play warframe. there is no such thing as end boss with "game over" after the kill.

[DarknessNightshade]

I don't get the purpose of the question, DE's a company and has to make revenue to be able to maintain servers, fix bugs, pay their employees, without new content player retention drops, so does the revenue, and so on.

A new warframe is much easier to make and model than say, a whole tileset, a new weapon is easier than that probably, especially if it's an existing template.

With COVID and working from home, DE has limitations as to what content they can churn out, Sisters of Parvos is relatively low effort for them compared to bigger projects they're probably working on (The New War, etc), helps keep a roof above their heads and keeps their regular players happy with something to do for another couple months or so.

Tennogen is probably even easier given the modelling is already mostly done for them, it's just adapted into the game and tweaked to fit certain sizes, and we've been seeing a few Tennogen series recently.

But also yes, variety is good, even if the meta tends to draw you towards the more powerful frames (with ones such as Saryn, Mesa, etc at the top), there's always something new to experience, I still have Lavos and Sevagoth to try out among the backlog of frames, and that's what keeps me coming back to the game, something new to do, some new gun to get, some new mod to amplify my build and min-max the damage values to the letter, etc.

Some people find value in just decorating Dojos, content for that is just new objects and boxes and shapes, I don't know who'd spend hundreds of hours decorating and making a huge sentient dragon, wierdos (meant in jest). 

[RyAn0099]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

They have like one ability that is similar, and they have their own different versions of invincibility. Not to mention they have radically different themes

Rhino nezha revenant all share 1 invincibility 1 mobility and 1 crowd control ability. What abilities does vauban and protea or hydroid and yareli share?

[S1mplyFresh]

Some threads in this forum are truly ridiculous.

You want DE to stop making new Warframes and Weapons? Seriously, what the hell...

[(XBOX)NuclearSquiddy]

9 hours ago, RyAn0099 said:

Rhino nezha revenant all share 1 invincibility 1 mobility and 1 crowd control ability. What abilities does vauban and protea or hydroid and yareli share?

As I stated, they have completely different interactions, uses, and themes. You're cherry-picking the mobility and cc aspects of 1 of their abilities. To make it easier to understand, you're comparing Firewalker, Charge and Reave, and for cc you're using Stomp, Radial Javelin and finally Enthral. You seem to be misinterpreting every point I made in the OP and exaggerating them to a level where you compare 3 completely different frames. The only frame where I would agree that there is some similarity is Nezha but I wouldn't call them the same.

As for Vauban and Protea, they share the same concept of deployable structures. The have damage dealing turrets, buffing stations and AoE damage stations. The only thing that separates them is the time travel ability which is underused and Bastille/Vortex.

For Hydroid and Yareli, they literally have same ultimate where you deploy a cc/damage zone. Undertow and Tidal Surge serve a similar role to Merulina but the k-drive part is enough to pass is as different. Aqua Blades and Tempest Barrage are damage dealers, but the only difference is that the former moves with the frame and the latter doesn't.

[(XBOX)NuclearSquiddy]

9 hours ago, S1mplyFresh said:

Some threads in this forum are truly ridiculous.

You want DE to stop making new Warframes and Weapons? Seriously, what the hell...

Read the OP and the replies carefully again. I'm merely asking whether or not there is going to be a limit on the amount of Warframes and suggesting rework or resources being shifted away from the creation of new Warframes to better the game design and avoid power creep, lack of usage, complexity of storage/programming and other technical issues. I specifically asked people to refrain from bringing the monetary card into play since we're probably going to get into a political/economic warzone, but very few seem to have actually read that and alas here we are.

[(XBOX)NuclearSquiddy]

11 hours ago, Zimzala said:

Honest Answer - "Variety is the spice of life."

This question, from my POV, is like asking "Why are there not only three vehicle consumer designs, S/M/L?" or "Why are there so many colors of clothes available?"

The object is not design a specific set of playing pieces that can clear content with zero overlap or similarity, the object is to make fun things to play.

Variety makes things fun and interesting IME.

This is why I am baffled by people that just want to come into games, have someone else tell them what the most mathematically effective path is, follow that path, then think they finished the game and move on to the next...like the tourists that get off of a cruise ship, buy three t-shirts and think they 'experienced a new place'...when they just used the most boring tools to get to the end as fast as possible, experiencing none of teh flavor available, like going to Baskin & Robbins and only ever getting Vanilla.

Many of us enjoy fun variety and nuance.

 

11 hours ago, Battle.Mage said:

that's the point. even in 2014 the devs understood that: "new content = life!"

only new content and new possibilities keep the ship afloat. because there is absolutely no reason to play warframe. there is no such thing as end boss with "game over" after the kill.

I agree with these points, but I suggested there's a better way of going about it just like we did with kitguns, zaws and helminth. Making frames is cumbersome and isn't that efficient when it comes to bringing variety. An actual endgame or more customization would be preferable rather than yet another weapon or frame to dissect. It's merely just chemistry; it's more fun to combine multiple elements and test them all than be stuck with going one at a time. That's the reason why helminth brought so much more life and meme potential to the game, and I hope we get more of that.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy:

 

I agree with these points, but I suggested there's a better way of going about it just like we did with kitguns, zaws and helminth. Making frames is cumbersome and isn't that efficient when it comes to bringing variety. An actual endgame or more customization would be preferable rather than yet another weapon or frame to dissect. It's merely just chemistry; it's more fun to combine multiple elements and test them all than be stuck with going one at a time. That's the reason why helminth brought so much more life and meme potential to the game, and I hope we get more of that.

you are addressing an important topic. and it has been discussed too often.
the thing is: balance is something that will most likely never exist here. it hardly lets you calculate with such a large number of possibilities. a team would sit in Excel for months and with every update the fun would start all over again.
therefore there will ALWAYS be much better weapons / warframes here. and if new content is worse than current and usable weapons / warframes, then more current and usable weapons / warframes are simply nerfed and turned into the garbage can. which is also happening with kuva nukor today. it turns into a rubbish weapon that no one needs.

the strategy is primitive and it is about pure profit and platinum sales.

I have read your posts. and yes, there are a lot of important things in it. I'm only extremely unsure whether it will be implemented with the current tactics. money is in the foreground.

[Silvertap]

On 2021-07-02 at 8:09 AM, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

In my opinion, the amount of frames we have is starting to reach a limit. There are too many frames to pick, and most of them you'll only play for a few missions overall. Not to mention lots of frames literally do the same thing that countless others do, with basically similar abilities with 1 or 2 added quirks. The latest frame, Yareli, is just proof they really don't care if said frame already exists but in another form cough Hydroid. Rather than making carbon copies with a fresh coat of paint, they should focus on making new systems like helminth or modular frames (which is what I hope the new Bash Lab will be used for), reworking pre-existing Warframes to make them more unique and less boring, or just make radically different Warframes with crazy designs. I'm cool with 2 to 3 frames fitting the same niche, but if 10+ frames already exist solely for AoE damage bursts, or if 4 literally tank solely by high HP, what's the point anymore. Even worse is having, 2 Warframes with literally identical themes. If anything those places should be filled by frames that change the game in general or are unorthodox like Nidus or Gauss. Sure I get it's hard to make each frame radically different, but now I think they should divert their attention elsewhere. Maybe I'm wrong, that's why I want to here your suggestions. I'm genuinely fixed on this topic.

I see your point, but for me i like having more and more warframes, even if i wont use all of then. Some times is good to have a variaty, just to have fun playing a diferent warframe, what i don't like though, is when the frames have no really interesting, very weak abillities, or no survivability abilities.

As for monney making, every companny needs to make money and DE is no diferent, and there is nothing wrong with that (IMO) 

[Yimimoto]

For me, I love collecting the warframes. I don't click with all of them gameplay-wise but there is something about almost all frames that I enjoy. They are all characters/classes to themselves and I enjoy trying them all. The more the merrier for me.

[Zimzala]

14 hours ago, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

 

I agree with these points, but I suggested there's a better way of going about it just like we did with kitguns, zaws and helminth. Making frames is cumbersome and isn't that efficient when it comes to bringing variety. An actual endgame or more customization would be preferable rather than yet another weapon or frame to dissect. It's merely just chemistry; it's more fun to combine multiple elements and test them all than be stuck with going one at a time. That's the reason why helminth brought so much more life and meme potential to the game, and I hope we get more of that.

So, as so many posters, you really just want them to to what you want them to do, you want what YOU consider to be 'an end game'.

You have decided making new frames is not 'efficient' to bring variety, etc. and is not what YOU want as an end game.

Sounds like that's just you wanting things other don't have the desire/time/money to create, IMO.

More toys adds more variety, even if it's not what you want.

I want more episodes of Firefly, not holding my breath...

[(XBOX)NuclearSquiddy]

10 hours ago, Zimzala said:

So, as so many posters, you really just want them to to what you want them to do, you want what YOU consider to be 'an end game'.

You have decided making new frames is not 'efficient' to bring variety, etc. and is not what YOU want as an end game.

Sounds like that's just you wanting things other don't have the desire/time/money to create, IMO.

More toys adds more variety, even if it's not what you want.

I want more episodes of Firefly, not holding my breath...

I simply said adding new toys is mathematically inefficient when you want variety, the amount of modification and customization determines the amount of variety. Sure there are 40+ frames, but I can't mix 5 of them together.

Where's my mathematical proof? I'll keep it short and provide theory but right now there a 4 slots in the arsenal. Let's create 4 variables: a, b, c, and d. Now if you've at least participated let's imagine all of the variables = 2 (I know there are many more than 2 items in each slot but let's keep it simple, the point will still come across). Since all of the 4 variables equal 2, let's just bundle them into x; x^4 = 16. So now we have 16 possible combinations. Let me now explain the magnitude of adding new systems and why it is lightyears more efficient than adding items. With the addition of helminth (dependent) we can swap abilities, so now our 2 frames double the amount of variety to 32. Kitguns and zaws are independent systems sadly so they merely add to the amount of items we have in our slots, but it's still a massive boost. If there are 2 items per modular slot which there are 3, 2^3 items = 8, 8 + 2 = `10, 10^3 * 2^2 = 4000. So in the end, we started with 16 combinations using your system of numerous items, but now we ended up with 4000 possible combinations with a mixture of dependent and independent systems being added. Of course certain additions are more game changing than others so you can add a multiplier according to your preference and then average the multipliers and divide, but I'm too bored so I'll leave that to you. 

If you are still not convinced, tell me and I'll provide you the numerical comparison, formula, and whatnot.

Verdict: 16 vs 4000, your choice.

 

[Zimzala]

16 hours ago, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

I simply said adding new toys is mathematically inefficient when you want variety, the amount of modification and customization determines the amount of variety. Sure there are 40+ frames, but I can't mix 5 of them together.

Where's my mathematical proof? I'll keep it short and provide theory but right now there a 4 slots in the arsenal. Let's create 4 variables: a, b, c, and d. Now if you've at least participated let's imagine all of the variables = 2 (I know there are many more than 2 items in each slot but let's keep it simple, the point will still come across). Since all of the 4 variables equal 2, let's just bundle them into x; x^4 = 16. So now we have 16 possible combinations. Let me now explain the magnitude of adding new systems and why it is lightyears more efficient than adding items. With the addition of helminth (dependent) we can swap abilities, so now our 2 frames double the amount of variety to 32. Kitguns and zaws are independent systems sadly so they merely add to the amount of items we have in our slots, but it's still a massive boost. If there are 2 items per modular slot which there are 3, 2^3 items = 8, 8 + 2 = `10, 10^3 * 2^2 = 4000. So in the end, we started with 16 combinations using your system of numerous items, but now we ended up with 4000 possible combinations with a mixture of dependent and independent systems being added. Of course certain additions are more game changing than others so you can add a multiplier according to your preference and then average the multipliers and divide, but I'm too bored so I'll leave that to you. 

If you are still not convinced, tell me and I'll provide you the numerical comparison, formula, and whatnot.

Verdict: 16 vs 4000, your choice.

That's nice.

Why does creative output for Entertainment have to be more efficient?

Are you just wanting to re-structure how DE produces it's product? If so, I suggest the Job listings or heavily investing.

Total numerical options vs entertainment based on Frames is silly in terms of a formula anyway.

From a player perspective, the impact you give mathematically does not translate to the variety a different Frame brings into the mix, just for starters.

This is about Entertaining people, not trying to create the most mathematically efficient event horizon.

Mathematical efficiency is for book-keeping and bean counting, not creative output for Entertainment, IME.

[White_Matter]

Lack of build and customization variety.

If we are stuck with a handful of frames(which you arguably can reduce it down to 8 working frames and the rest is not needed) people would get bored real fast. Even if you have a couple of frames you play, you need a change of pace every once in a while and pick something else to play.

Plus it is the easiest way to introduce "new" content into the game. They introduce a new frame, people grind for it. Take it for a spin for a few missions, feel like something new was added to the game. 

And also monetary reasons like you said.