Its time to make the case to reconsider a first person view option.

[TylerFreeman]

I think the only reasonable counter-point is not the camera itself but rather the weapons and the general size of them

That being the recent Tenet Envoy as it's iron sights couldn't be possible since I think it'd take 50% the side of your screen. 

[Dreddgrave]

16 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Step 1: Put camera inside face or right in front of it.

Step 2 (Optional): Remove face client-side.

Step 3: Label option "First person mode (Experimental)".

This is literally all I'm asking for honestly. Not a promise to refine it, no reanimation at all, nothing more nothing less.

I just want this crappy little toggle and maybe making the Warframe always face the crosshair when on the ground. Even that I could give or take.

If enough people use the toggle or ask for it to be improved or if it gets forgotten about completely, I'd probably still really enjoy it.

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 hours ago, Faulcun said:

The same could be said for cross play

Hah, a game that is already being set up and created for all of those platforms, where the only change is whether they can actually be match-made across the different server used between the companies, and the only reason they weren't before was because of the updates and releases being slowed down for other platforms by Certification issues?

Sure, that's definitely not a situation where the infrastructure is right there ready to be implemented and only administrative issues stood in the way. That's definitely not a situation where, if DE tested the idea of simultaneous releases a few times (including PC pre-updates to test new systems a month in advance of the simultaneous release) the process couldn't be put into effect.

If you're classing cross-play and cross-save in the same difficulty of implementation as first person, then you've not been paying attention to the actions of DE over the last few updates that were them literally testing the viability of this function.

At least you, unlike @Perfectly_Framed_Waifu acknowledge a little of how difficult the changes would be to make. I mean... really? They thought that attaching the camera to the face of the Warframe would work? Attaching the camera to the actual model of the Warframe would go completely crazy the moment a melee combo was initiated, or cause massive motion sickness the second we did a sideways/backwards dodge roll. These issues aren't appearing in a vacuum, they're literally issues that documentaries on FPS animation and game creation have shown developers need to overcome or work around, and have been issues for decades. Even games like Mirrors Edge, which was literally designed to attach the camera to the 'face' and let it 'roll' and react with the player model, were completely designed to acknowledge and make use of all the possible design tricks that could be used to make first person work. And even then, when players hacked that to go into third person, the game was easier to play because they weren't getting tumbled around and routes were obvious, more easy to spot, and there was no point where their camera was jammed into a wall while they were climbing.

I mean, it's like saying 'because we have aim-down-sights' suddenly magically makes this viable? I don't know if you noticed, but when you aim down sights, it literally removes the visual indicators that aren't our base HUD, physically slows our movements, uses a separate aiming sensitivity range and prevents us from using the mobility functions we have without breaking aim-down-sights.

All of the things that I raised as being issues with a first person view are completely removed as options by the Devs in order to make the aim-down-sights function work, and you would use that as an example of how first person view could work?

Even taking the support on this thread, with (at most) 20 or so separate responders, as making my estimate of 98% of people not even bothering to use it after implementation is really, really stretching it when there's currently (at time of typing) over 58k players in game on Steam alone, not even counting the consoles. That's a weird one. I thought I was exaggerating with mine for effect, but I tip my hat to you for that one.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

At least you, unlike @Perfectly_Framed_Waifu acknowledge a little of how difficult the changes would be to make. I mean... really? They thought that attaching the camera to the face of the Warframe would work? Attaching the camera to the actual model of the Warframe would go completely crazy the moment a melee combo was initiated, or cause massive motion sickness the second we did a sideways/backwards dodge roll.

There you go making a mountain out of a molehill again. Have you ever played Skyrim? Ever seen some footage from the game? Did you know you can roll in Skyrim, and do side rolls and backflips, all without the camera freaking out? Just because a camera's attached to the head doesn't mean it 100% of the time needs to face the same direction as the head. Fixing the camera for wild melee combos would be no different. You could even let the camera linger in place while the head swings about, not caring that it sometimes temporarily ends up in frame. As I previously said:

20 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

People here be really overcomplicating the implementation of a first person mode. It doesn't have to be perfect. If it's a little janky, it'll fit in with the rest of the game's tiniest side things. The Happy Zephyr hitboxes, aren't exactly spot on either. Just put in an amount of effort relative to its usage and importance, then leave it at that unless it sees a significantly growing demand.

Basically, what you're doing is making up issues, then saying it can't be done because of those issues. I've frequently seen flat-Earthers argue in the same way.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

All of the things that I raised as being issues with a first person view are completely removed as options by the Devs in order to make the aim-down-sights function work, and you would use that as an example of how first person view could work?

And the reason we can use aim-down-sights as an example is because it shows how the issues you create are largely, if not all of them, none-issues. For example:

21 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Every mechanic in Warframe has something to do with the game being third person. Even down to the hacking zooming your camera in so you can't see what's going on around you.

You can transition from aim-down-sights to hacking and it works. Thus, this is not a mechanic that requires third person. No issue.

 

If Happy Zephyr can exist with its jank, so can a first person mode. It doesn't have to be perfect.

[Joezone619]

The way I see it, there are 2 main arguments here.

A) Too much work and effort to implement fully.

and

B) Its simple, just place camera where the head is.

 

Personally, I think moving the camera where the head is currently, is a great "experimental" first person to start with, and I wouldn't mind if this is all they did. That said, a full first person mode is a lot of work. You need to work out weapon models, weapon size scales, hands/arms, camera positions, casting animations, idle animations, sometimes even a new HUD, there is a lot to work on to fully implement first person.

In my opinion, I think they should implement a crude and simple "experimental" first person, see how players like it, then develop the rest sometime later down the line, it doesn't need to be a top priority, but I believe many many players have waited long enough for at least something pertaining to first person to be implemented, I know I have.

[Faulcun]

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Hah, a game that is already being set up and created for all of those platforms, where the only change is whether they can actually be match-made across the different server used between the companies, and the only reason they weren't before was because of the updates and releases being slowed down for other platforms by Certification issues?

Sure, that's definitely not a situation where the infrastructure is right there ready to be implemented and only administrative issues stood in the way. That's definitely not a situation where, if DE tested the idea of simultaneous releases a few times (including PC pre-updates to test new systems a month in advance of the simultaneous release) the process couldn't be put into effect.

If you're classing cross-play and cross-save in the same difficulty of implementation as first person, then you've not been paying attention to the actions of DE over the last few updates that were them literally testing the viability of this function.

That statement was in reference to when you said it SHOULD NOT be done because it will come at the expense of other work they could be doing. I used cross play as an example of something I would argue should not be done, for various reasons i wont get in to so we dont derail this thread. I never suggested one was easier to implement than the other.

 

As others have suggested, and pointed out, currently the camera position is fixed over the shoulder.  the animation of the model and camera position is unrelated to each other. It is very possible to simply move the camera position inside the head as a fixed location because the model itself is positioned in a fixed location regardless of the animation. This would be extremely experimental, and half assed... but thats all we're asking for, is a starting point. I truly dont see any harm in that.

[Birdframe_Prime]

40 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

I used cross play as an example of something I would argue should not be done

Except that you used it when the reference for that was that the actual work needing to be done was too high.

Cross play/save has all of the ground-work laid down, the only thing holding it back is the actual paperwork and some appeasing of the fanbase to let the PC updates be a little slower to make simultaneous releases more possible.

First Person would take all of the work that I mentioned, it's not just a matter of mounting a fixed camera and ignoring the animations.

Unlike a system that just bridges the gap between platforms on a game that's literally written to be on all of those platforms already, the game has all been set up to exploit the functions of third person.

And even the systems that people tout as so good in first person are always easier to function with in third person, because first person is specifically limiting to the actions that many games perform.

No, what you've pared it down to, just moving the camera in a little closer and saying it's 'experimental' isn't that hard of a thing to do. What it does not do is actually provide you with a first person experience or any of the actual benefits that do come from a first person experience.

Let me branch this off into something entirely other than first person as an experience. Let's put this into something where... melee combat was to be changed to work like one of the hack-n-slash action games, Devil May Cry or Bayonetta for example.

Look at all the things in those games that are designed around making that kind of melee combat work. Could DE make Warframe behave like that? Well, actually, yes, we've just seen the reveal of the New War section with Teshin as one of the playable characters. He hacks-n-slashes, he uses grapples to stay mobile, he has a limited kit that's built directly around his melee focus, and while he has a projectile attack it's more utility than damage.

Would that method of game play work in regular warframe, though? You would need to significantly slow down the spawns, rebalance the rewards for killing individual units, and, most importantly, you would need to slow us, the players, down. Just like they did with Teshin, putting him up against the sentients rather than swarms of infested or grineer troops, making his mission be largely stealthier and focused on killing the specific few enemies he finds, rather than vaulting through entire tiles and picking his targets as they catch your eye.

Regular Warframe combat is faster, the movements take you further, the enemies aren't designed to be on your screen for more than a fraction of a second at best, even the heavy or special units are all designed to be killed as fast, and as many, as possible to keep up the pace of the mission.

This is a similar thing to First Person.

Can you put the basics of first person into the game? Yes.

Will it do what you want it to do? No, for the same reason that trying to make Warframe actually fully melee focused wouldn't.

It wouldn't happen without work. Not without changing the entire pacing of the game, removing aspects that clutter too much, adding aspects that make your limited view function better.

Enemies that leap, dash, charge you and knock you down, random grapple hooks, enemies that crawl up and electrocute you or spit corrosive gobs, Parvos Void Specters that dash and laser you from all angles and are already hard to avoid once they get going. That's not even getting into actual line-of-sight blockers that would exist.

Have you seen what happens when you mod a game like Cyberpunk into third person?

Spoiler

The model that your character has is a real one, you aren't just a floating camera, because you do have legs and arms and a gun in the world. But to make that work in first person, the model breaks when you aim a pistol or rifle, bringing it to centre of screen, allowing you, the camera, to see down the sights. But Warframe's models would still exist, and they have animations for their skeletons on firing and aiming weapons that don't do that.

With a first person camera strapped to your Warframe's head (even taking into account the allowance for having it ignore more complex movements), it wouldn't put the gun in place, the model would aim its standard aiming animation and be off to the side instead. Where the model would place it, not where the camera would place it.

As I said, the amount of work that goes into a first person view mode is actually pretty intensive.

That's why it shouldn't be done, in my view, because of the work needed.

The time and effort needed are way more than you appear to think they are.

Just slapping an 'experimental' mode on it won't actually make it an acceptable point of reference, it'll not just be a mess, it will be an un-usable mess.

[Dreddgrave]

24 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

~All That~

Give.

Me.

The.

Mess.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

59 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No, what you've pared it down to, just moving the camera in a little closer and saying it's 'experimental' isn't that hard of a thing to do. What it does not do is actually provide you with a first person experience or any of the actual benefits that do come from a first person experience.

Let me branch this off into something entirely other than first person as an experience.

I love how you make a claim that it wouldn't provide a first person experience or any of the benefits and then, instead of backing this up with examples or even listing any of these supposed benefits, you bolt right away from the topic. 10/10 argument.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Can you put the basics of first person into the game? Yes.

Will it do what you want it to do?

Yes. Yes, it will in fact do exactly what I want it to do.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

With a first person camera strapped to your Warframe's head (even taking into account the allowance for having it ignore more complex movements), it wouldn't put the gun in place, the model would aim its standard aiming animation and be off to the side instead. Where the model would place it, not where the camera would place it.

As I said, the amount of work that goes into a first person view mode is actually pretty intensive.

That's why it shouldn't be done, in my view, because of the work needed.

The time and effort needed are way more than you appear to think they are.

Just slapping an 'experimental' mode on it won't actually make it an acceptable point of reference, it'll not just be a mess, it will be an un-usable mess.

TF2 in VR mode is exactly the kind of jank mess you would get from strapping a camera to your Warframe's head and seeing the world through "their eyes" (friendly reminder for the fifth time that this still doesn't mean it will automatically follow the head's every turn, because that's not how camera fixation works). And that is a usable jank mess. So yes,

45 minutes ago, Dreddgrave said:

Give.

Me.

The.

Mess.

 

[rainmaker170]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Regular Warframe combat is faster, the movements take you further, the enemies aren't designed to be on your screen for more than a fraction of a second at best, even the heavy or special units are all designed to be killed as fast, and as many, as possible to keep up the pace of the mission.

 

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It wouldn't happen without work. Not without changing the entire pacing of the game, removing aspects that clutter too much, adding aspects that make your limited view function better.

Regardless of playing in first person, in my opinion, this should all be done anyway. I'd definitely say that it isn't even that enemies are "designed" to be that way, that's just what the community made of the combat system over time, like how we utilized coptering when we saw it was viable. Think of bosses in MMO's, or games like monster hunter where you can fight the same enemy for half an hour, but its still engaging. DE could do whatever they want with the flow of the game as long as it's done well. The pace of the mission is another community construct. It's just people trying to be more efficient about the grind in the game.

Someone made a comment earlier comment about the Eris tile set and generally getting stuck on things in first person, but obviously that's an issue either way, and one that can be avoided without much trouble. The thing there, is that it was always going to be, and now with DE talking about redoing the wall running these last two years or so (honestly, I haven't been following that at all since before the gas city rework, no idea where that is), things are just going to have to change anyway. Weird/invisible geometry and walls probably shouldn't have been an issue in the first place, and its always going to be work to completely redesign a system, but sometimes it needs to be done. The entire game will have to change, every single tile would need work done, that's just the price for having been designed to a different idea at the time.

The point is that there's any number of systems that could and potentially should be redone, because they just weren't designed for how they ended up being used. Seeing a total overhaul of combat would be great. Hell, bring back stamina as long as its implemented well, its something you need to manage in most games. We basically have no reason to have both a sprint and a walk function, people aren't even on the ground most of the time, but that's still around. You could still mow through hordes of enemies without them being useless, or all killing you in one hit. There's never been much of a middle ground for difficulty when it comes to levels and scaling. These things always should have been getting attention.

I'm not sure anyone will really relate, but I play a good amount of Space Marine, and even if its a grot that you can kill by looking at too hard, or an unarmoured enemy that only takes 2 bolts to kill, up to the black nobz and traitor marines, anything can be easy to deal with. Or it can be a threat. There's no enemy levels, never needed to be, not even any difficulty selection (for online PVE anyway). There's so many options, so many play styles out there for games, I think it makes sense to look back at them when nobody really knew how the game should play to start with. I think DE really has a vision of what they want to do in the game now, so it would be natural that those things would be brought into the current vision rather than just being an 8 year old system that never gets updated because it would change the flow of what was a very fluid game at the time. Having more piled on now, yes, it will all take work, but the work is going to be happening one way or another.

At the end of it all, I think it really just gets into the argument of polish vs. content, and I think both DE and the community need to think on what is important there.

[Faulcun]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Except that you used it when the reference for that was that the actual work needing to be done was too high.

Cross play/save has all of the ground-work laid down, the only thing holding it back is the actual paperwork and some appeasing of the fanbase to let the PC updates be a little slower to make simultaneous releases more possible.

First Person would take all of the work that I mentioned, it's not just a matter of mounting a fixed camera and ignoring the animations.

Unlike a system that just bridges the gap between platforms on a game that's literally written to be on all of those platforms already, the game has all been set up to exploit the functions of third person.

And even the systems that people tout as so good in first person are always easier to function with in third person, because first person is specifically limiting to the actions that many games perform.

No, what you've pared it down to, just moving the camera in a little closer and saying it's 'experimental' isn't that hard of a thing to do. What it does not do is actually provide you with a first person experience or any of the actual benefits that do come from a first person experience.

Let me branch this off into something entirely other than first person as an experience. Let's put this into something where... melee combat was to be changed to work like one of the hack-n-slash action games, Devil May Cry or Bayonetta for example.

Look at all the things in those games that are designed around making that kind of melee combat work. Could DE make Warframe behave like that? Well, actually, yes, we've just seen the reveal of the New War section with Teshin as one of the playable characters. He hacks-n-slashes, he uses grapples to stay mobile, he has a limited kit that's built directly around his melee focus, and while he has a projectile attack it's more utility than damage.

Would that method of game play work in regular warframe, though? You would need to significantly slow down the spawns, rebalance the rewards for killing individual units, and, most importantly, you would need to slow us, the players, down. Just like they did with Teshin, putting him up against the sentients rather than swarms of infested or grineer troops, making his mission be largely stealthier and focused on killing the specific few enemies he finds, rather than vaulting through entire tiles and picking his targets as they catch your eye.

Regular Warframe combat is faster, the movements take you further, the enemies aren't designed to be on your screen for more than a fraction of a second at best, even the heavy or special units are all designed to be killed as fast, and as many, as possible to keep up the pace of the mission.

This is a similar thing to First Person.

Can you put the basics of first person into the game? Yes.

Will it do what you want it to do? No, for the same reason that trying to make Warframe actually fully melee focused wouldn't.

It wouldn't happen without work. Not without changing the entire pacing of the game, removing aspects that clutter too much, adding aspects that make your limited view function better.

Enemies that leap, dash, charge you and knock you down, random grapple hooks, enemies that crawl up and electrocute you or spit corrosive gobs, Parvos Void Specters that dash and laser you from all angles and are already hard to avoid once they get going. That's not even getting into actual line-of-sight blockers that would exist.

Have you seen what happens when you mod a game like Cyberpunk into third person?

  Reveal hidden contents

The model that your character has is a real one, you aren't just a floating camera, because you do have legs and arms and a gun in the world. But to make that work in first person, the model breaks when you aim a pistol or rifle, bringing it to centre of screen, allowing you, the camera, to see down the sights. But Warframe's models would still exist, and they have animations for their skeletons on firing and aiming weapons that don't do that.

With a first person camera strapped to your Warframe's head (even taking into account the allowance for having it ignore more complex movements), it wouldn't put the gun in place, the model would aim its standard aiming animation and be off to the side instead. Where the model would place it, not where the camera would place it.

As I said, the amount of work that goes into a first person view mode is actually pretty intensive.

That's why it shouldn't be done, in my view, because of the work needed.

The time and effort needed are way more than you appear to think they are.

Just slapping an 'experimental' mode on it won't actually make it an acceptable point of reference, it'll not just be a mess, it will be an un-usable mess.

I cant argue to a lot of your points because i am not a developer. I dont do 3d animations, ive never built a video game before, and i dont make millions of dollars a year because of a software idea.

I do, however, have years of experience modding and map making using the unreal engine and lithtech engine. I have years of experience playing extremely fast paced competitive shooters at above average skill levels (not trying to toot my own horn). Because of my experience, i have a very clear image in my head as to what the experience might be like with a simple repositioning of the camera, and a very realistic idea as to what the game would generally be like in FPP.

I can absolutely say, that a lot of your argument on what the experience might be like, even as a "mess" as you've put it, is majority a lack of player skill level.

Now let me clarify that last statement before people jump down my throat and call me an elitist. Im not suggesting people just need to "git gud". Im suggesting that some, if not most, of the concepts that you are describing in scenarios are undeveloped skills and traits that players have not had the opportunity to learn even over the last 20 years because they are rare experiences themselves in games in general.

Maybe Left4Dead could be a good example of some of the scenarios you are describing. That is a first person hoard shooter, while not being anywhere on the same level of movement system in warframe, does have constant distractions and attacks from every conceivable angles and locations. If you arent just doing speed runs, you have to be extremely self aware of your surroundings, and constantly listening for any signs of danger.

I think introducing these concepts into a game like this would be a positive improvement, not only for the game itself, but for this generation of gamers as a whole. We've settled on a lot of companies dishing out sub par products. Our expectations have been lowered so far, we cant even see the bar above our heads anymore. I think its time we expect more out of our experiences in an industry we probably spend 25% of our life devoting our hours to.

Warframe itself is a mashup of concepts from multiple games across genres. However, I believe DE and warframe have reached a point where warframe can set an example for other development teams out there. In this way, again, i think it would be foolish not to even explore the option of expanding the way players can potentially experience their product.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

16 minutes ago, rainmaker170 said:

At the end of it all, I think it really just gets into the argument of polish vs. content, and I think both DE and the community need to think on what is important there.

Polish content. Jeśli zrozumiesz żart, jestem szczęśliwy.

[auxy]

30 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

I think introducing these concepts into a game like this would be a positive improvement, not only for the game itself, but for this generation of gamers as a whole. We've settled on a lot of companies dishing out sub par products. Our expectations have been lowered so far, we cant even see the bar above our heads anymore. I think its time we expect more out of our experiences in an industry we probably spend 25% of our life devoting our hours to.

😭😭😭👌🏿👌🏿👌🏿💯💯💯💕💕💕✊🏿✊🏿✊🏿

[Gamer_Auto]

On 2021-07-19 at 7:42 PM, Faulcun said:

Im in the same boat. I never laughed harder than during vivergate. That one might be before your time here though.

But i hardly think this thread falls into the "loudest" or even "toxic" category. If it were worked on passively, or a little at a time, its an option that most people probably wouldnt even be aware of unless they read the patch notes.

In fact, it wouldnt even affect the normal game you play. Only the people that want it, or go looking for the option, will use it. It would have no bearing on anybody who continues to use third person view.

If they were to implement it, as an experimental thing, I'd prefer if it was a side-mode (I've suggested using the Decoration Camera as a way to control Sentinels as one form this could take). Then, if that receives enough positive attention, I could see them implementing it for the main game. Because I think we'd all rather it start in something that's its own little corner just in case something does end up breaking. Imagine trying to experiment with the new camera view while playing a mission, and all of a sudden you get some horrible camera glitch that completely throws the mission for you. Starting off small, like a Mesa Ludoplex game where it's FPP and you have to shoot targets carnival style, is probably a better thing than dropping it into the deep end right off the bat.

23 hours ago, Dreddgrave said:

This is literally all I'm asking for honestly. Not a promise to refine it, no reanimation at all, nothing more nothing less.

I just want this crappy little toggle and maybe making the Warframe always face the crosshair when on the ground. Even that I could give or take.

If enough people use the toggle or ask for it to be improved or if it gets forgotten about completely, I'd probably still really enjoy it.

I think that's already an option in the settings. I was literally just in them today, and I thought I saw something along those lines.

[Dreddgrave]

7 hours ago, Gamer_Auto said:

I think that's already an option in the settings. I was literally just in them today, and I thought I saw something along those lines.

I think I wanna pop you in the nose for getting my hopes up.

[Faulcun]

8 hours ago, Gamer_Auto said:

If they were to implement it, as an experimental thing, I'd prefer if it was a side-mode (I've suggested using the Decoration Camera as a way to control Sentinels as one form this could take). Then, if that receives enough positive attention, I could see them implementing it for the main game.

I think I would rather see them give us a menu option labeled experimental that unlocks it in the view rotation.

If you think about it, the over left shoulder view is already on the same level as what we're asking. I dont know of anybody who even uses that view except for myself under very specific conditions. The biggest problem with that view is that you still shoot from the right hand. Either way, including it in the view rotation in this way I feel would be the least annoying for anybody who doesnt want to try it

[Drasiel]

4 hours ago, Faulcun said:

I think I would rather see them give us a menu option labeled experimental that unlocks it in the view rotation.

If you think about it, the over left shoulder view is already on the same level as what we're asking. I dont know of anybody who even uses that view except for myself under very specific conditions. The biggest problem with that view is that you still shoot from the right hand. Either way, including it in the view rotation in this way I feel would be the least annoying for anybody who doesnt want to try it

looking around corners sometimes, all I ever use left shoulder for. Well that and when my cat steps on the H key.

[Birdframe_Prime]

I think that it's clear we're going to have to agree to disagree here.

This is the key point;

On 2021-07-20 at 8:55 PM, Faulcun said:

In this way, again, i think it would be foolish not to even explore the option of expanding the way players can potentially experience their product.

DE have so many options already available, and being explored currently and in already announced updates, that expand the experience of Warframe. 

What it comes down to is the simple, cut-throat mathematics of effort vs reward.

If DE put in this effort, with all that it will take (since the game has had 8 years of spaghetti code in the third person format, and all the things I've pointed out already), what is their actual gain from it? Not ours, as players, theirs as developers.

Because the most that you, and anyone else, has offered on this thread is that some of the players might enjoy it a little more and be more likely to recommend it. It doesn't bring with it any actual content, any hook to have absent players return for more than a quick log-in and try of the new view mode, it doesn't provide any incentive for players to waste their Plat or even really recommend it to their friends (because, after all, the view doesn't change the actual game, which is reliant on content to progress).

However, if DE put in that same amount of time and effort into, say... The Planes of Duviri? Now that New War is coming out? That's content, that's another quest, another thing for players to interact with and experience. That's a reason for new players to join and progress through the content, to see this new thing.

Events, Quests, even just warframes and weapons. Those drive the game's player base to actually engage in the game.

And DE haven't exactly been slacking with those, the last couple of years of quests were all solid (for all that some of them were short, and made in their pyjamas), the last couple of years of updates have all been solid improvements, and barring the slight disappointment of Yareli, all the weapons and warframes have been good too.

We just saw, only a week ago, an update that will entirely change how we play, temporarily, bringing in experiences as different factions and tell a story through them. That's a solid expansion of how we will experience the game.

And I don't see, at any point, how wasting time on First Person, will actually improve player experience of the game.

So, yeah, agree to disagree on this one. I'll not convince you, if I haven't already, and you won't convince me that this is a good idea until DE have literally no other options for content and expansion.

But one last point:

On 2021-07-20 at 8:55 PM, Faulcun said:

I do, however, have years of experience modding and map making using the unreal engine and lithtech engine. I have years of experience playing extremely fast paced competitive shooters at above average skill levels (not trying to toot my own horn). Because of my experience, i have a very clear image in my head as to what the experience might be like with a simple repositioning of the camera, and a very realistic idea as to what the game would generally be like in FPP.

It's really interesting that you bring this up.

Because it kind of sounds like one of my points I made earlier; that all of the other games made with first person in mind specifically have the game designed to at least have that be the primary method of engaging with the world.

All of the competitive shooters, all of the fast-paced single-player ones in first person... They're all made to be that way.

And you, as a creator of some of the games, actually know this.

You know that the game has to be set up so that players can actually learn and develop the skills to move and platform and be situationally aware, with all sorts of little indicators. Simple ones like hit-markers for when you're getting shot, or advanced ones like the flow of platforms to get a player to expect a corner, ledge or pitfall.

All of these things that you, as a creator, already know about.

And all of those things that aren't in Warframe.

[Faulcun]

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

DE have so many options already available, and being explored currently and in already announced updates, that expand the experience of Warframe. 

What it comes down to is the simple, cut-throat mathematics of effort vs reward.

If DE put in this effort, with all that it will take (since the game has had 8 years of spaghetti code in the third person format, and all the things I've pointed out already), what is their actual gain from it? Not ours, as players, theirs as developers.

Because the most that you, and anyone else, has offered on this thread is that some of the players might enjoy it a little more and be more likely to recommend it. It doesn't bring with it any actual content, any hook to have absent players return for more than a quick log-in and try of the new view mode, it doesn't provide any incentive for players to waste their Plat or even really recommend it to their friends (because, after all, the view doesn't change the actual game, which is reliant on content to progress).

You are correct about one thing. We probably will never agree on this. Fortunately we dont have to. Im not actually arguing your points to convince you of anything really. Im arguing your points to provide counter perspective for anybody at DE who might be reading.

DE has a few things to gain, actually. Most immediately, is a portion of a playerbase that CLEARLY refuses to play this game specifically because it is NOT first person. If i can personally list off a dozen people who feel this way, there has to be tens of thousands of people who share the same sentiment. We all know DE's development has always been set around encouraging platinum purchases from new player positions because im willing to bet platinum purchases from veteran slow down greatly late game. People either stop playing the game, or have obtained enough prime parts or content to simply trade for platinum. And of course the people spending that platinum are the newer players trying to obtain content held by primarily veteran players in the first place. If you engage with a new playerbase, you gain platinum purchases immediately.

On the long term scale, it gives DE the opportunity to polish their own skills and increase further as a development team. Warframe itself seems to be a jack of all trades game. They've already incorporated multiple kinds of systems from other games into their own. Its only logical for them to build upon it further, especially in a direction that has been requested for years already.

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

However, if DE put in that same amount of time and effort into, say... The Planes of Duviri? Now that New War is coming out? That's content, that's another quest, another thing for players to interact with and experience. That's a reason for new players to join and progress through the content, to see this new thing.

Events, Quests, even just warframes and weapons. Those drive the game's player base to actually engage in the game.

And DE haven't exactly been slacking with those, the last couple of years of quests were all solid (for all that some of them were short, and made in their pyjamas), the last couple of years of updates have all been solid improvements, and barring the slight disappointment of Yareli, all the weapons and warframes have been good too.

We just saw, only a week ago, an update that will entirely change how we play, temporarily, bringing in experiences as different factions and tell a story through them. That's a solid expansion of how we will experience the game.

Yeah but for how long? The nature of this free to play game forces DE to constantly provide content updates. This new corpus/grineer quest is a... different way to experience a quest, not the entire game. Will we always be able to play as these characters? Probably not. And just like every other content update, including the last one with sisters of parvos, people will blow through the content in a week or two and stop logging in until the next content release. I see this in our own clan and i know for a fact we arent the only ones. One merely needs to ask in discord for people's opinions.

 

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And I don't see, at any point, how wasting time on First Person, will actually improve player experience of the game.

So, yeah, agree to disagree on this one. I'll not convince you, if I haven't already, and you won't convince me that this is a good idea until DE have literally no other options for content and expansion.

Well, "improve" is subjective. An improvement is a matter of opinion and not guaranteed. It will however CHANGE the experience for the player. I personally view that change as an improvement. Aside from what ive already explained in my last posts, ill try to give some insight from a first person perspective in regards to the world created for us to play in.

How big is a bombard? We know a bombard or heavy gunner is taller than a warframe. We can clearly see that from third person. But the experience would be completely different to have one of them standing in front of you about to end your existence while you are looking up at them towering over you. You dont get this point of view right now.

Our interactions within the environment are somewhat numbed in third person. Ive always said eidolons need to be bigger.... like 50% taller. But do they really? The scale is so messed up that when they first introduced eidolons, they showed a scale of the warframe vs the actual eidolons side by side with a clear difference. But in third person you dont really get that feeling.

The scale of the environment itself is different. Even in our orbiter, the environment feels small because not only does there have to be room for your warframe, but room for the camera. I want to look my operator in the face and see my operator look me back in the face, not watch my warframe and operator look at each other.

Bottom line, it is a completely different game when you feel like things are happening to YOU, and not something you are merely controlling. This is what we are asking for.

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Because it kind of sounds like one of my points I made earlier; that all of the other games made with first person in mind specifically have the game designed to at least have that be the primary method of engaging with the world.

All of the competitive shooters, all of the fast-paced single-player ones in first person... They're all made to be that way.

And you, as a creator of some of the games, actually know this.

You know that the game has to be set up so that players can actually learn and develop the skills to move and platform and be situationally aware, with all sorts of little indicators. Simple ones like hit-markers for when you're getting shot, or advanced ones like the flow of platforms to get a player to expect a corner, ledge or pitfall.

All of these things that you, as a creator, already know about.

And all of those things that aren't in Warframe.

Sound, not hit markers, is the primary indicator. Warframes sound system is perfectly fine for first person view. In fact, most of everything already exists. I think players just dont utilize the many indications that are given to us because we really dont need to right now.

Either way, id rather try it. IF its terrible, id be the first person to admit it doesnt work.

[Joezone619]

I really do hope this thread inspires DE to make first person, regardless of the arguments going back and forth.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

What it comes down to is the simple, cut-throat mathematics of effort vs reward.

If DE put in this effort, with all that it will take (since the game has had 8 years of spaghetti code in the third person format, and all the things I've pointed out already), what is their actual gain from it? Not ours, as players, theirs as developers.

Low effort experimental mode vs. customer satisfaction and increased engagement with the game. You're severely undervaluing having players play the game, and having the game be fresh. Comparatively, a quest like Call of the Tempestarii takes a ton of effort to craft, with the result being players farming up a frame in a day, slapping one or two spare forma on Sevagoth and hop off the game again. Meanwhile, a first person mode will have players testing a variety of weapons (opening up more forma avenues than a single frame), on a variety of maps, and generally engaging with the game more than a one-off quest, all to experience this new immersion. Hell, players might even replay some quest to see what the experience is in first person! Weapon skins and those dangly melee thingies become more noticeable now that the camera's no longer lingering behind a shoulder, thus such cosmetic sale will likely see an increase. Warframe skins are still frequently visible, so there would most likely not be any noteworthy revenue loss there.

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

you won't convince me that this is a good idea until DE have literally no other options for content and expansion.

One might jokingly say that you can't/won't see any of the benefits of a first person view from your distant over-the-shoulder perspective. For those that actually take a closer look at the prospect of a first person mode, the benefits are both clear and abundant.

2 hours ago, Faulcun said:

IF its terrible, id be the first person to admit it doesnt work.

Pun intended?

[Faulcun]

58 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Pun intended?

😎

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 hours ago, Faulcun said:

Warframes sound system is perfectly fine for first person view.

Warframe uses dual-stereo sound, basic stereo, but aligned forward and back as well, which is a perfectly serviceable method of providing pseudo-surround sound in game.

With this system finding a Kuva Cloud or a Demolyst before other people is easy for me, people in my regular play have all asked me, at one time or another, how I do that, and I point out that the sound in Warframe is clear enough for that.

However it falls apart when you realise that DE forgot the Z axis exists. Like they do with many of their systems. An enemy walking on a catwalk below you is exactly as loud as an enemy on the same level as you at the same X/Y distances.

Add in the fact that Warframe's audio has as many sources to generate it as it does visual ones that create particles... a four player mission through a Void Fissure will get decidedly noisy.

And audio is not the only cue you need to navigate a world. As I already pointed out.

Old Parkour used to have these visual indicators of where and how you could use it to move around. Until coptering made a lot of them obsolete. And since Parkour was updated, only the old tiles still even have those.

13 hours ago, Faulcun said:

We probably will never agree on this. Fortunately we dont have to. Im not actually arguing your points to convince you of anything really. Im arguing your points to provide counter perspective for anybody at DE who might be reading.

And I know you are, it's what I do on a lot of threads myself.

Because this is a public forum and if your ideas don't pass peer review, how will they pass actual review?

Still, the overall point is one that I feel DE will actually take:

The time and effort is far greater than you're expecting it to be, otherwise DE would have at least experimented with it over 8 years of development, rather than stacking system after system on top of their base third-person view to reinforce it as the primary method of engaging with Warframe.

And that time and effort will be put, instead, into content that will keep the game going, because it is 100% like you said:

13 hours ago, Faulcun said:

The nature of this free to play game forces DE to constantly provide content updates.

It's a free-to-play, live service game that's actually run on that basis rather than the freemium economy that other games use. It literally has to do that.

Content is what keeps the game going, and DE have already felt lean years because of that, with their own content creators turning up the heat when DE's pace slows.

If you don't feed the player base, they stop playing the game.

And so, unless you can link First Person mode to actual Content in the game... it's not worth DE putting the time into.

[Faulcun]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Because this is a public forum and if your ideas don't pass peer review, how will they pass actual review?

It would appear this thread has more positive support than negative.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The time and effort is far greater than you're expecting it to be, otherwise DE would have at least experimented with it over 8 years of development, rather than stacking system after system on top of their base third-person view to reinforce it as the primary method of engaging with Warframe.

If PvP can be a thing, I dont see any reason why we cant work on FPP a little at a time. Seriously, theres no reason not to explore the topic when they clearly have the development team power now.

Like I get it.... 8 or 6 years ago. That wasnt the time to make drastic alterations or build new systems for a limited audience. But now, they have the manpower. They even stated during tennocon that no system is safe. I think once the new war is out and done, this is the perfect time to work on something to further maximize playerbase potential.

I dont want to screenshot my discord, but I do want to quote a small section that is relevant. This was on july 18

Quote

Faulcun [Fu] G5: Id like to make a case for fps view
[1:46 PM] Member 1: FPS mode with VR support for Volt and Gauss mains.
[1:48 PM] Faulcun [Fu] G5: i mean im down with that for sure
[1:48 PM] Faulcun [Fu] G5: sounds like a blast to me
[1:48 PM] Member 2: FPS mode is the #1 thing that would get me binging warframe for 8+ hours a day again

[1:49 PM] Member 1: I played slapped VR into Mirror's Edge and enjoyed it. I actually would love it.

[1:50 PM] Member 2: I mean I don't mind third-person gameplay, my other big games are all third-person (nioh 2, phantasy star online 2, souls series)—although notably they're all third person and not over-the-shoulder

Like I said, for every one person online with a point of view, there are 1000 people who feel the same way. Not all of them are vocal. Granted we're still a minority in this case, but this topic keeps coming up every couple months for the last 8 years. Maybe DE will just ignore all this, and thats fine. Wouldnt be the first time Ive disagreed with one of their policies or stances.

But there is already a large amount of people who want this, and a large amount of people like yourself who dont and would rather DE not waste their time on something you deem unimportant or useless. But theres probably even more people than both those groups who are indifferent one way or the other. Some might try it and like it, some wont.

Personally I can deal with third person view either way. I can play just the same. Hell, I spent thousands of hours in mass effect 3 mp. But the detachment from the character, and the lowered immersion is very real, including warframe.

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And so, unless you can link First Person mode to actual Content in the game... it's not worth DE putting the time into.

Im linking FPP to the entire game itself. For a lot of people, feeling like things are happening to you is more desirable. Honestly it becomes a completely new game because its a new perspective. Enemies are aiming at you, instead of just your warframe. Npcs are talking to you, and not just your warframe.

I dont know how else to explain how a simple perspective change drastically increases the level of immersion, which translates to the entire game itself. Isnt that the whole point of VR? You can play minecraft without VR, and then you can play minecraft with VR and all of a sudden people are freaking out about stepping over a ledge. The game hasnt changed, just the level of immersion.

I mean you are already in FPP in minecraft... and when you step over a ledge, you already have it in the back of your mind not to fall because YOU dont want to fall. And then VR takes that to the next level.  TPP<FPP<VR

Maybe in 5 more years ill try to make the case for VR. Either way, Warframe will have to keep innovating to stay relevant. New features, new systems, new content, new ways to experience the game. Staying limited in scope will eventually grow stale.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Because this is a public forum and if your ideas don't pass peer review, how will they pass actual review?

What you're doing ain't peer review, tho. A peer review would critique the arguments put forth. What you're doing is putting forth an opposing argument - you make the point you want to make but don't engage with points and counter-points that go against your line of argument. As evident by the quote below:

13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And so, unless you can link First Person mode to actual Content in the game... it's not worth DE putting the time into.

As previously argued, and multiple times if I recall correctly, a First Person mode would inherently give players a second way to experience a large majority of the game's content. That is worth putting time into for DE, especially since it wouldn't require a lot of it. See previous examples instead of ignoring them.

12 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

(A) The time and effort is far greater than you're expecting it to be, (B) otherwise DE would have at least experimented with it over 8 years of development, rather than stacking system after system on top of their base third-person view to reinforce it as the primary method of engaging with Warframe.

Here's a peer review for you. The statement (A) does not logically follow from statement (B), nor is there any proof provided that (B) is even true - what's to say that they haven't experimented at some point during these 8 years? As it stands, the statement (A) is an empty assertion, and thus holds no convincing power.