Corrupted Critical mod exclusivity.

[Divided010]

I would like to hear what I hope is the real reason for this exclusivity. Because from what I can gather at the moment it seems the only reason for its exclusivity is that the corrupted critical mods can potentially have a interaction with the Internal Bleeding mod. Which is a reason for sure...but I feel like it is a very weak reason and that is because of the following.

The potential interaction between them can only work or happen from only those two mods being put on a weapon if and only if said weapon has 3.9 or under baseline fire rate. All other weapons with greater than 3.9 baseline fire rate would need further fire rate slowing mods to get the 2x benefit from Internal Bleeding. So not only is this exclusivity worthy mod interaction just between the corrupted critical mods and this singular Internal Bleeding mod...it only applies to weapons that have a slow fire rate already...making this exclusivity worthy interaction have a even more narrow band of weapons it applies too.

It is for those reasons that I find its new exclusivity to be silly...yes they needed a buff to make people want to use them but does it not seem counter intuitive then to make them exclusive just because of one particular interaction that can only happen on weapons with a specific low fire rate? Yes it is stronger now and because of that more people would want to use it on builds...but now you cannot use it along with the normal critical mod...which lowers its potential usability...potentially putting it back into the same useless mod category the buff might have pulled it out of. Not only that...this now makes these two mods the only corrupted mod type to be exclusive with its non corrupted counter part, and with the reason for its exclusivity being so weak I just cannot see why it needs to be this way at all.

[Reitrix]

Made sense for them to stack when the boost was 48%. But now its 200%, adding a 120% on top of that would be pointless power creep.

[Divided010]

50 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Made sense for them to stack when the boost was 48%. But now its 200%, adding a 120% on top of that would be pointless power creep.

I thought they wanted to buff primary weapons? Doing that would necessitate the need of "power creep" as you say. And at 48% the mod was next to useless and didn't even do what most of all the other corrupted mods did. All that buffing it to 187% then 200% did was make it go from near useless to something a build could actually consider because it was now in the same spot that other corrupted mods where. Which is stronger than the baseline mod but with a draw back...and all the other corrupted mods can stack with their normal counter parts so why is "pointless power creep" not a problem worthy of exclusivity for all of the other corrupted mods?

[PublikDomain]

2 minutes ago, Divided010 said:

I thought they wanted to buff primary weapons?

They did, just in other places. Multishot got a 110-140% buff on all guns, and all guns got +360% Damage that doesn't even take a mod slot. Plus all guns got a P H A T Condition Overload-styled mod.

[Tiltskillet]

54 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Made sense for them to stack when the boost was 48%. But now its 200%, adding a 120% on top of that would be pointless power creep.

In which cases?  I'm not questioning their existence, but I'm curious.  It would cost two slots, and come with a penalty, and very often the second slot would be optimally filled with something else.  When they announced the mods wouldn't stack the letdown for me was convenience on weapons that are far from meta, mainly slow firing single target that could more consistent crits with both. 

If there is a substantial powercreep issue, I think there's a case for saying that at least it democratizes the problem.  People with good rivens can already double stack crit without conditions attached and often without a meaningful penalty.  (For another example, see Blood Rush melee.)

[Divided010]

4 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

They did, just in other places. Multishot got a 110-140% buff on all guns, and all guns got +360% Damage that doesn't even take a mod slot. Plus all guns got a P H A T Condition Overload-styled mod.

And that is great, they needed it, but how are those facts a reason for "Corrupted crit mods need to be exclusive now!"?

[Uhkretor]

... I use those corrupted crit mods to reduce fire rate and improve accuracy...

 

"why reduce fire rate when using up 1000 bullets in less than a minute is Da BeSt?" because the lower hits per second an enemy takes, the more damage they take... Also, less double accuracy loss due to camera shaking when firing...

 

... Which is something I've been telling people about since U7, yet still no one either believes it, or accepts it, even now...

[taiiat]

it's fine for these Crit Chance Mods to be exclusive if they want, just need Stats to be adjusted accordingly.

the Shotgun one may even be arguably Overpowered. (it's probably ok though)
while Pistol is literally useless, and Rifle is somewhere between as a modest but still relatively meager tradeoff.

 

and i'll certainly agree that the Mods should be balanced as to their level of usefulness on their own. not as assuming they are only to be used with another Mod. because at that point that's just called a Set Mod except these aren't Set Mods.

7 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Also, less double accuracy loss due to camera shaking when firing...

""Recoil"" in Warframe caps out pretty quickly - on smaller Magazine Weapons i could see that. but on most Automatic Weapons with good sized Magzines, ""Recoil"" already doesn't exist, and your Spread cone is fixed anyways, it does not change with your Rate of Fire.

but it could definitely be a boon, sometimes.

[(PSN)Unstar]

Can anyone explain what "exclusivity" means in the context of this thread?

[TARINunit9]

12 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

 because the lower hits per second an enemy takes, the more damage they take... 

That's only true for certain heavy enemies, like Juggernauts and ParvoSisters. Weak stuff like a Bombard, more bullets = more damage, and thus higher fire rate = more damage

[PublikDomain]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Can anyone explain what "exclusivity" means in the context of this thread?

You used to be able to equip Critical Delay and Point Strike, but now you can only equip one or the other.

26 minutes ago, Divided010 said:

And that is great, they needed it, but how are those facts a reason for "Corrupted crit mods need to be exclusive now!"?

Because like the guy you asked that question to was saying, these mods got buffed a lot already to the point where stacking them would be too much on top of all the other buffs we just got.

Edit: To be clear, I don't really care one way or the other. But that'd be the justification DE would use.

[Divided010]

13 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Because like the guy you asked that question to was saying, these mods got buffed a lot already to the point where stacking them would be too much on top of all the other buffs we just got.

All the buff did though...was bring the corrupted crit mods up in line with the other corrupted mods? All the other corrupted mods were already stronger than their contemporary mods just with drawbacks. The corrupted crit mods were outliers as they were the only corrupted mods that were straight downgrades compared to their baseline mods. So if it is "too strong" to stack with its original...then why are the other ones "okay"? The do stack with their baseline mod...so why is it only a problem with the crits?

[Divided010]

15 minutes ago, taiiat said:

it's fine for these Crit Chance Mods to be exclusive if they want, just need Stats to be adjusted accordingly.

I to am "fine" with it being how it is, I just want there to be a good reason for it to be that way especially since all the other corrupted mods did what this "buff" changed the crit ones to do already and they are fine without exclusivity.

17 minutes ago, taiiat said:

and i'll certainly agree that the Mods should be balanced as to their level of usefulness on their own. not as assuming they are only to be used with another Mod. because at that point that's just called a Set Mod except these aren't Set Mods.

Agreed, because if mods are going to be balanced on how well they combo with other mods...then mod balance would become even more time consuming to achieve than it already is.

[PublikDomain]

9 minutes ago, Divided010 said:

All the buff did though...was bring the corrupted crit mods up in line with the other corrupted mods? All the other corrupted mods were already stronger than their contemporary mods just with drawbacks. So if it is "too strong" to stack with its original...then why are the other ones "okay"? The do stack with their baseline mod...so why is it only a problem with the crits?

That's a good point.

Yeah, call me a believer. This is basically the same as the inconsistency on Scattered Justice. It could produce some powercreep, but likely not much, and if anything it'd just provide some more build competition which overall is a good thing.

[(PSN)xRockinVaruka]

29 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... I use those corrupted crit mods to reduce fire rate and improve accuracy...

 

"why reduce fire rate when using up 1000 bullets in less than a minute is Da BeSt?" because the lower hits per second an enemy takes, the more damage they take... Also, less double accuracy loss due to camera shaking when firing...

 

... Which is something I've been telling people about since U7, yet still no one either believes it, or accepts it, even now...

Actually, I turned off my camera shake exactly because of this. Accuracy is determined by the camera shake in my experience. "If it wasn't for the camera shake, I would have gotten that kill."

[Divided010]

16 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Yeah, call me a believer. This is basically the same as the inconsistency on Scattered Justice. It could produce some powercreep, but likely not much, and if anything it'd just provide some more build competition which overall is a good thing.

Yeah that is another thing I don't understand either...it just flies in the face of how those other weapon specific syndicate mods work in the game.

There is also the Berserker and Fury exclusivity...which while I do admit the attack speed did get rather silly on already fast melee weapons...I feel like there are better ways to "fix" that without exclusivity though exclusivity is the "easiest" one....

Maybe something like diminishing returns on attack speed when it starts to approach...levels that are animation breaking? So that it never goes beyond that point?

[Uhkretor]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)xRockinVaruka said:

Accuracy is determined by the camera shake in my experience.

Even though a weapon's accuracy cone remains the same, which I can actually confirm its true that its the same, camera shake moves that cone because the cone is centered in the crosshair... And if the crosshair shakes due to camera shaking then its an added accuracy loss.

But one of the things I've noticed is that even though the accuracy cone is the same, its values are only true if firing at full fire rate..., Controlling it tightens the cone (not by much, but sufficiently enough to matter)... And before someone actually says "that's not how it works", I've made this test today with a Viper Wraith.

 

Ok, off-topic ended from my part haha

[Galuf]

When you use a bleed mod you are always trading upfront dps in order to get an opportunity to bank on the dot to make the kill for you. It gets better as you progress in the game but for most content you could just kill stuff at first place with the upfront damage.

This mod is interesting because its effect has a big effectiveness gap near its breakpoint, however its purpose and usage stays the same. Most of the time, the more AS you have the more the mod will apply bleeds in a predictable way. Obviously there are dps factors, but I rather be able to stack the critical amount of bleed needed to kill in 0.5s than having it more unreliable.

[0_The_F00l]

Is there a reason from a consistency perspective ? No , DE isn't the best when it comes to consistency of any kind. They are rather arbitrary in some cases.

Is there SOME reason ? Yes , DE probably feels it would be a little too powerful to have upwards of 350% CC without purple cards.

I personally feel they should have this rule set for all their mods. Only one mod per attribute enhancement permitted and buff some of the corrupted mods to actually be better than their regular variants just like they did here. Rivens would be the only mods that can circumvent it.

Would really shuffle the loadouts.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

7 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I personally feel they should have this rule set for all their mods. Only one mod per attribute enhancement permitted and buff some of the corrupted mods to actually be better than their regular variants just like they did here. 

Would really shuffle the loadouts.

For Warframes too or just weapons? I don't think either would be a good idea, as the potential modding stats are taken into account when designing a weapon/frame's base stats. The reason for these 2 mods having exclusivity is to keep the potential critical stats in around the same area that they've been. If we wanted to apply that to every other mod, our potential modding stats would be way lower, and they'd have to go back through every weapon and frame they designed around these potential modding stats to bring them back up to the power we have now.

[Reitrix]

6 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Is there a reason from a consistency perspective ? No , DE isn't the best when it comes to consistency of any kind. They are rather arbitrary in some cases.

Is there SOME reason ? Yes , DE probably feels it would be a little too powerful to have upwards of 350% CC without purple cards.

I personally feel they should have this rule set for all their mods. Only one mod per attribute enhancement permitted and buff some of the corrupted mods to actually be better than their regular variants just like they did here. 

Would really shuffle the loadouts.

The salt mines would explode if you did that lol. 

I do agree that mod type exclusivity would actually make modding more interesting and reduce  the need for bosses and minibosses to have such insane damage gating,  though i would rather see a complete rebuild of modding in general to achieve that. 

As for the OPs question, there are guns that already go over 100% Crit with just Point Strike, My Chakkhur goes to 125%. Add Critical Delay to that and it would be 250%. 

Throw Argon Scope on top for good measure and you're looking at a gun that has permanent red crits with zero setup. It already drops 60k slash procs on the regular with just Point Strike. 

Mods don't affect all weapons equally, therefore the ability to stack all the crit mods together would blatantly break a lot of weapons.

[0_The_F00l]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

For Warframes too or just weapons? I don't think either would be a good idea, as the potential modding stats are taken into account when designing a weapon/frame's base stats. The reason for these 2 mods having exclusivity is to keep the potential critical stats in around the same area that they've been. If we wanted to apply that to every other mod, our potential modding stats would be way lower, and they'd have to go back through every weapon and frame they designed around these potential modding stats to bring them back up to the power we have now.

ALL gear 😈 

And that's the point I am making ,

the power across the board would be lower for players. Level 50 could potentially be a challenge and steel path would be near impossible without a combination of a well built squad.

4 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

The salt mines would explode if you did that lol. 

I do agree that mod type exclusivity would actually make modding more interesting and reduce  the need for bosses and minibosses to have such insane damage gating,  though i would rather see a complete rebuild of modding in general to achieve that. 

Mmm salt for the salt god.

And that's the thing people don't get , the ridiculous grind is cause players are able to reach ridiculous powerlevels , if mission levels actually had a impact on drop types and drop chances with greater risk and reward at higher levels (non existent right now outside of experience and steel path partially) the rewards would be more forthcoming.

Increasing our damage is kinda moot if enemy DR also scales with it. 

But that would need DE to actually take a stand and not bend over backwards for those that whine.

So I am not really hopeful , but hey , weirder stuff has happened.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

2 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

ALL gear 😈 

And that's the point I am making ,

the power across the board would be lower for players. Level 50 could potentially be a challenge and steel path would be near impossible without a combination of a well built squad.

I can't think of many people that would be in favor of this, since it reduces the power fantasy below a reasonable level, while also making the game way harder for people that play solo, and makes the gap between gear even wider, as a lot of gear will go from "viable but not the best" to "not viable at all". It's fine if games require teams to take on the hard content, but those games are not Warframe, and I'd say that people that want team-balanced difficulty to be regular should play Destiny 2.

Now I'd be fine if there was team-balanced difficulty in certain content, such as raids, but relying on a well built squad for all gameplay that's actually challenging would make the game feel a lot more restrictive, as we'd be pushed towards building Holy Trinity setups, where if you don't play the right frame, you don't get a team, meaning you don't get to play.

[0_The_F00l]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

I can't think of many people that would be in favor of this, since it reduces the power fantasy below a reasonable level, 

Please do elaborate what you consider a reasonable level.

And I agree , many people would not look favourably on this.

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

while also making the game way harder for people that play solo, and makes the gap between gear even wider, as a lot of gear will go from "viable but not the best" to "not viable at all". 

Assuming the change is in vaccum. And all mods and stats and mechanics stay exactly the same as they are.

It would indeed need to be much more holistic to be effective.

And if a weapon is viable , but never used, is it really viable anymore ?

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

It's fine if games require teams to take on the hard content, but those games are not Warframe, and I'd say that people that want team-balanced difficulty to be regular should play Destiny 2.

I personally dislike it when people make suggestions of "play x instead" , Like dude, I am here ,have spent a significant amount of time playing this game , have invested both in-game and on the forums helping players , discussed topics made arguments and friends, seen changes happen which were radical and completely unexpected. What makes you think the way you are playing the game is the only right way ? That no change or improvements are possible?

I am sure you probably didn't mean it in that context , but it really pisses me off when someone plays that card.

And yes , I do play other games too , the DE staff does too , that's where they get most of their ideas from.

24 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

Now I'd be fine if there was team-balanced difficulty in certain content, such as raids, but relying on a well built squad for all gameplay that's actually challenging would make the game feel a lot more restrictive, as we'd be pushed towards building Holy Trinity setups, where if you don't play the right frame, you don't get a team, meaning you don't get to play.

I did say steel path specifically. Which is intended to be harder. And we did have that in Raids (trials) 

Maybe steel path sortie would be the next trial equivalent.

[Divided010]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Is there SOME reason ? Yes , DE probably feels it would be a little too powerful to have upwards of 350% CC without purple cards.

I never said that there is NO reason for it...only that the one DE has stated...the potential combination it has with the new primary bleed mod is inadequate. Would it be OP OP? I am not 100% sure if it would be. Because you can still achieve the mega crit state but with a riven instead of the corrupted crit mod. So if the mega crit state is the problem then rivens are also a problem too.

 

48 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

As for the OPs question, there are guns that already go over 100% Crit with just Point Strike, My Chakkhur goes to 125%. Add Critical Delay to that and it would be 250%. 

Throw Argon Scope on top for good measure and you're looking at a gun that has permanent red crits with zero setup. It already drops 60k slash procs on the regular with just Point Strike. 

Mods don't affect all weapons equally, therefore the ability to stack all the crit mods together would blatantly break a lot of weapons.

You can still reach this "game breaking" level of crit even with this exclusivity...you just need a purplie boi instead. So if it is okay for rivens to do it...I don't see why non purpie bois should be an issue when rivens are apparently a "non issue".