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Make Rhino Iron Skin Health Scales to Current Enemy Level


Rasdan
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Rhino Iron Skin might be a godsend on low to mid level missions. But at Steel Path misisons, he's practically useless.

The reason? His Iron Skin health takes full damage from enemies. Even with full Strength and all Maxed Umbral Mods equipped, Rhino's Iron Skin Health can achieve roughly 10k tops.

So far, players tried to mitigate using many ways to increase armor. Health Conversion mod, Arcane Tanker, even the latest Parasitic Armor Helminth Ability. Sadly, these bandaid solution still doesn't help Rhino on extremely high level content.

Knowing spectres level scales on current enemy level on said mission, it's not impossible to implement Rhino Iron Skin that scales with current enemy level.

Vauban Flechette Orb's level scaling feature earns praise for players. We really hoped DE would implement level scaling on some flat damage abilities that has fallen out of builds. Iron Skin being one of them

Edited by Rasdan
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Doesn't it also stack with Adaptation?

The Rhino Dash augment also adds a lot of EHP to Iron Skin afaik..

That combined with the shieldgating timer, a high armor-hp build and cc with Stomp should be enough for survivability, other than that there are overall better tank frames.

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On 2021-08-28 at 2:57 PM, Rasdan said:

Rhino's Iron Skin Health can achieve roughly 10k tops.

Omegalul. A basic build with parasitic armour, redirection, ironclad charge and iron shrapnel with all the strength gets you in the 100's of thousands trivially.

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9 hours ago, torint_man said:

Omegalul. A basic build with parasitic armour, redirection, ironclad charge and iron shrapnel with all the strength gets you in the 100's of thousands trivially.

I don't like youtube pleb videos but apparently you can get over 1M iron skin nowadays.

 

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I would perhaps not mock the OP, as the combo requires a few pieces that may not be obvious to someone not in the know, but Rhino can indeed reach absurd amounts of Iron Skin durability through the use of the Ironclad Charge augment, and now the Parasitic Armor Helminth ability. It is worth mentioning, however, that the OP does still have a point: on its own, Iron Skin as an ability doesn't scale terribly well and becomes deficient at higher levels. It's only when one combines it with a broken augment and a specialized mod setup that it becomes good. This is by no means the only case of a frame depending on an augment for an ability to work well (that's basically all of Nekros's kit), but it's still something that could be improved with changes to the formula: for example, if there were a multiplier to the damage received that gets converted into Iron Skin's buffer, the ability would scale better on its own, and so in a manner that would interact minimally with the Ironclad Charge combo (which relies on setting up Iron Skin before its invulnerability kicks in).

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Am 28.8.2021 um 23:57 schrieb Rasdan:

We really hoped DE would implement level scaling on some flat damage abilities that has fallen out of builds

It actually does, doesn't it?

Nezhas Warding Halo and Frosts Snowglobe both have been scaling for years.

The first 3 seconds, you are invincible and all damage negated is added to the pool.

 

If this doesn't apply to Rhino, yes, he really needs some help.

But if this DOES already apply, then yeah, L2P, because my Nezha can't stop laughing at you.

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I see great opinions regarding my topic. They are highly appreciated.

 

Yes, 1 million iron skin indeed possible, and I am highly aware of GHS video. However, it's still a lot of work.

One, you need to sacrifice two Warframe mod slots for Ironclad Charge and Iron Sharpnel.

Two, you need source of Crowd Control to pull enemies into one place:

  • Magus Anomaly is a good choice, which is equipped on your Operator. Problem is Warframe Loadout isn't tied on Operator Loadout. Meaning if you want to equip Magus Anomaly, you need to run to the Operator Room and change them manually.
  • Exodia Hunt on Zaws, most recommended on Dokrahm (since Tempo Royale base combo has slams). You need to sacrifice equipping a better melee for a CC Melee. Unless your zaw is good enough. I happen to have a dokrahm viral-CD riven, so this is my go to.
  • You can try helminth Ensnare/Larva. However, if you're planning to use Parasitic Armor, this isn't an option.

Three, If the build has Blind Rage, Energy consumption is a big consideration.

  • Point number 1 already stated that Rhino has 6 Mod slots left. Assuming you equip at least Umbral Fiber, Umbral Intensify, Blind Rage, Transient Fortitude, you're left with 2 more mod slots.
  • Minus one mod slot Redirection if you're equipping Parasitic Armor.
  • If you're equipping Parasitic Armor for the maximum Iron skin, then your last slot most likely for Energy Consumption. Equipping Streamline isn't enough. Fleeting Expertise is a choice if you're willing to sacrifice Roar. So, the best choice is Primed Flow.
  • Unless if you're willing to use Energy Pads, you may ignore this problem. Keep in mind that Steel Path limits pads usage per one minute.
  • Replacing Blind Rage with Energy Conversion is out of the picture, since you're casting abilities in succession.
  • Energy cost total for this process is 193.75 (No Efficiency Mods, Max Blind Rage), 156.25 (Streamline, Max Blind Rage), 118,75 (Fleeting Expertise, Max Blind Rage). Consider putting a lower rank Blind Rage to help, but risk less Ability Strength.

Four, the process of making this a reality. You need to CC your enemies in one spot, cast Rhino Charge and Parasitic Armor, and then Iron Skin. This is a lot of work. Pray that you have enough energy OR Energy pad is available for this.

 

If scaling Iron Skin to enemy level is such a bad idea. How about another solution:

Increase Iron Skin invulnerability time (to a reasonable one, like five seconds). However, during that phase, Rhino will pull aggro from enemies in Affinity Range. Increase the damage taken to iron skin health to make it more bearable.

 

Currently, I'm using a Rhino build that primarily focuses on Roar build (Duration and Strength), Energy conversion replacing Blind Rage, Fleeting Expertise (160 Efficiency), and Eternal War. Iron Skin is just there as a panic button when Shield Gating occurs.

Hope this could bring more discussion!

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1 hour ago, Rasdan said:

 

Currently, I'm using a Rhino build that primarily focuses on Roar build (Duration and Strength), Energy conversion replacing Blind Rage, Fleeting Expertise (160 Efficiency), and Eternal War. Iron Skin is just there as a panic button when Shield Gating occurs.

Use this build for roar and grab Dethcube or Panzer if your energy economy is that bad. All your points are a you problem anw.

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On 2021-08-30 at 10:50 AM, Rasdan said:

One, you need to sacrifice two Warframe mod slots for Ironclad Charge and Iron Sharpnel.

That's a non issue, due to the value derived from using those augments. I never really understood this argument, it's not a case of the [Unusable] -> [Usable] issue that augments often have, it's [Usable] -> [Enabling the face tanking of steel path for minutes at a time]. You are getting good value from the mod slots, which is a good thing!

On 2021-08-30 at 10:50 AM, Rasdan said:

Two, you need source of Crowd Control to pull enemies into one place:

Not really.

If you want to get 1 million plus, then yes. But, Iron skin in the 100's of thousands enables continuous steel path tanking, which never requires CC, especially with steel path enemy density.

On 2021-08-30 at 10:50 AM, Rasdan said:

Three, If the build has Blind Rage, Energy consumption is a big consideration.

Again, not really.

Zenurik's 5 energy per second is a reasonable baseline of energy regen to have. Assuming a PC + TF duration of 127.5% and blind rage, roar lasts 38 seconds and costs 116 energy, meaning a cost of 3.05 energy per second, leaving 2 energy per second to save for refreshing the combo. Assuming no energy orbs are picked up, you can refresh the combo every 100 seconds. 

Trust me, you don't need to refresh the combo every 100 seconds, even with less than half a million iron skin, which is easy to get without CC with steel path endless mission density.

On 2021-08-30 at 10:50 AM, Rasdan said:

Four, the process of making this a reality. You need to CC your enemies in one spot, cast Rhino Charge and Parasitic Armor, and then Iron Skin.

That, uhhhhhhh, isn't much setup at all. That can be easily done in the span of 10 seconds, and if you are doing it with the CC, could last you hundreds of seconds, meaning only a few % of your time is spent setting up.

I will admit this is overkill for non endless missions. If energy consumption and setup time is truly a concern, this brozime build is a good thing to look at.

 

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yeah rhino isn't in the best position since his roar ability can be used for everyone. As I previously stated on that infamous helminth thread his kit for even the bare minimum survivability in end game content is easily the most tedious compared to his counterparts in the game (Nezha,Revenant) the adaptation mod doesn't work on his iron skin (logically) so it puts the player to start heavily focusing on stacking armor because of your very low base health and thus the builds fall along this very tedious line of armor stacking Arcane Tanker which has a 5% chance of dropping, farming nidus for his helminth abilities or getting void singularity to pull them which, in both cases, are a very long farm. By the end of what month of grinding or spending 500+ platinum you'll be able to play comfortably without worrying about dying OR you could replace an ability on the frames mentioned earlier and be in the same spot as a overly invested rhino player and enjoy the game. I also find it hilarious that someone has taken a screenshot of 21 MILLION FERRITE ARMOR in level 9999 mission where that level of damage your absorbing will easily reach those numbers this has finally convinced me that people pick rhino and get the highest amount armor they can muster up, fawn over it and then move on to the next frame because of the obnoxious steps it took to get that high number. With that said I know exactly how that Rhino died in the new war trailer his armor skin was getting low and he realized there was no one to rhino charge through and got killed by a sentient. @Rasdan now DE might not make his armor scalable, the most you can ask is for Iron Shrapnel to be a innate ability because it's an ability that should already be a part of the frame, you could can even request a higher base armor because even non primed frost and Valkyr have higher base armor than him and it overall makes sense since he heavily relies on armor for his survivability, and the final thing is a possible reinforcing stomp rework where it heals a much higher percentage of armor instead of the flat 80 per enemy in the cc effect, if they do that then rhino would actually be in a great spot instead of being a helminth sacrifice for easier frames.

Edited by (PSN)ElectricCold
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like I said the only reasonable route for a rhino rework would be make his iron skin recastable, reworking reinforcing stomp augment, and possibly increases his base armor to be at least top 3 in the game

 

(comment was made after T-shark toxic rebuttal which got deleted ignore it)

Edited by (PSN)ElectricCold
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On 2021-08-28 at 11:57 PM, Rasdan said:

Rhino Iron Skin might be a godsend on low to mid level missions. But at Steel Path misisons, he's practically useless.

The reason? His Iron Skin health takes full damage from enemies. Even with full Strength and all Maxed Umbral Mods equipped, Rhino's Iron Skin Health can achieve roughly 10k tops.

So far, players tried to mitigate using many ways to increase armor. Health Conversion mod, Arcane Tanker, even the latest Parasitic Armor Helminth Ability. Sadly, these bandaid solution still doesn't help Rhino on extremely high level content.

Knowing spectres level scales on current enemy level on said mission, it's not impossible to implement Rhino Iron Skin that scales with current enemy level.

Vauban Flechette Orb's level scaling feature earns praise for players. We really hoped DE would implement level scaling on some flat damage abilities that has fallen out of builds. Iron Skin being one of them

Iron skin already scales with enemy levels: The higher the damage output from enemies, the higher Iron Skin's total health pool (referred to as Ferrite Armor in the game, but I will refer to it as health for clarity) can become. 

Also, very important to note that Iron Skin's total health pool is determined by two things: The Base Health of Iron Skin and Absorbed Damage
Base Health of Iron Skin: This is determined by stats and mods, such as Armor, Strength and Armor Multipliers (including Ironclad Charge). The higher these stats are when casting Iron Skin,  the higher the base health will be. It does not matter if Rhino gets attacked when casting, the Base Health will always be there when Iron Skin's invulnerability phase ends. Players used arcanes, mods, stats and augments to get this number high. In the video someone posted above, the majority of that 1+ million Iron Skin health pool comes from this mechanic.

Absorbed Damage: The damage absorbed in the few seconds after casting during invulnerability is added to the Base Health of Iron Skin to make up the Total Health Pool. This is the scaling part - the more damage enemies can do, the more damage gets absorbed and added to Iron Skin's Total Health Pool. No mods or stats influence this - it is purely based on incoming damage. In the screenshot where a player has 21+ million Iron Skin health pool, it mainly comes from this mechanic due to scaling. Rhino doesn't need arcanes or massive armor numbers or even Ironclad Charge to get to this number against level cap enemies, provided he stays alive when Iron Skin is down and the player has to press 2 to initiate it again.

I can understand that players would like for the Absorbed Damage to also benefit from something like Ability Strength, or for the invulnerability phase to be longer, or for an invulnerability phase to be added at the end of Iron Skin, but given Iron Skin's mechanics and the game's current mechanics, it will probably make Rhino effectively immortal too easily.

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4 hours ago, Silligoose said:

 

I know his original post might have given off the impression that he isn't aware of ironclad charge with armor stacking builds in the game but what he posted in the second post confirms that he is well aware and he most likely finds the steps required for survivability in steel path content to be excessive. Even in his original post you can clearly see that he was trying to stack as much armor as possible in his build in order to eliminate the various steps that you have to make  "Even with full Strength and all Maxed Umbral Mods equipped, Rhino's Iron Skin Health can achieve roughly 10k tops" let's face when you really think about it the required steps to survive for rhino in warframe is overall extreme compared to the other "tanks" in the game who only have to press one ability to be borderline unkillable.

Edited by (PSN)ElectricCold
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3 minutes ago, (PSN)ElectricCold said:

I know his original post might have given off the impression that he isn't aware of ironclad charge with armor stacking builds in the game but what he posted in the second post confirms that he is well aware and he most likely finds the steps required for survivability in steel path content to be excessive. Even in his original post you can clearly see that he was trying to stack as much armor as possible in his build in order to eliminate the various steps that you have to make  "Even with full Strength and all Maxed Umbral Mods equipped, Rhino's Iron Skin Health can achieve roughly 10k tops" let's face when you really think about it the required steps to survive for rhino in warframe is overall extreme compared to the other "tanks" in the game who only have to press one ability to be borderline unkillable.

You may be right, but I wasn't sure, so added it in case there are misunderstandings on how and why Rhino's Iron Skin already scales for the OP's benefit if needed, or perhaps some other players who happen to be going through this thread.

I've encountered players who don't quite understand why certain stats are used on Rhino and feel they may not be able to play him without some perceived "mandatory' mods or arcanes - that's for very long endurance runs, maybe.

I agree that one needs to pay a little more attention when playing him as opposed to some other tanks in SP (eg leveling Grendel on SP was pretty easy - that dude just doesn't care if he is getting shot at while activating life support, if he is fairly healthy with Adaptation equipped), but I wouldn't call it extreme either: I'm actually busy leveling Rhino Prime as I do some SP missions. I started with Ukko to get some Affinity while getting some relics and hit Survival on Selkie (again SP) when I unlocked Iron Skin. To be fair, I have strong weapons and synergistic Operator equipment and skills, but all one needs to do is:

  • make sure one has decent energy use  - don't waste it activating Iron Skin without enemies around, or right after using Rhino Stomp
  • make sure you get a decent enemy focus fire when activating Iron Skin for a decent health pool
  • don't stand still once it is full active 
  • be ready to press 2 when it gets low - shield gate will save you. 

No R5 Arcane Tanker or Magus Anomaly or Dragon Keys or Rolling Guard. No grouping of enemies to charge a lot of them or any of that stuff is needed. Just pay attention and press 2 at the right time. Once you start doing long endurance runs you can look into some of it to prevent one-tick proc deaths. That's pretty much it.

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3 hours ago, (PSN)ElectricCold said:

in the game who only have to press one ability to be borderline unkillable.

In lvl cap Rhino has to press two buttons to be actually unkillable. He andRevenant are the only frames i recall that can actually tank in lvl cap without excessive energy use. And thats without any armor mods. If you're babbling about 10k Iron Skin when I'm actually showing you a ss of playing Rhino in lvl cap, you really have to stop and think that you can actually be going at it the wrong fckign way.

Your half assed logic is akin to asking why stackin CC on Atlas melee is not working.

Steel path can be done with just Iron Shrapnel for recast. Arbies and long Survival can be done with just one cast of Iron Clad charge and Iron skin, and then in lvl cap you switch to stomp and iron skin scaling. It's not that damn hard to grasp. The reason why you see stacking armor with Ironclad Charge being suggested everywhere is because for the vast magority of the content it's a set up and forget deal. Get 1M in an Arbie survival and you never worry about health again. No recast needed, no looking up on charges, no stopping to heal. You just forget about it.  So please, stop spouting bullS#&$.

Making it stronger or easier is nothing I wont to stop, but acting like its such a chore to make dying trivial as Rhino is just lying to yourself.

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1 hour ago, PitSARVAPGaming said:

I think Rhinos iron skin does need some logistical working. at almost max strength I'm getting 18k armor on SP and it's not lasting at all

You cant just go with str alone. Need armor in there too. In my Roar build above i ditchet armor mods since I got Tanker, but Health Conversion is basically best in slot outside of it. A random charge (no setup at all) gets me 100k or more which is enough for the vast majority of SP missions.

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2 hours ago, PitSARVAPGaming said:

I think Rhinos iron skin does need some logistical working. at almost max strength I'm getting 18k armor on SP and it's not lasting at all, but there's tons of ways to get armor to turn into exponents. Some wrangling into making consistent would be nice.

Exactly and @Rasdan shared the same general opinion and probably got scared off the forums because of the toxicity thrown his way for trying to find an alternative

Edited by (PSN)ElectricCold
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8 hours ago, (PSN)ElectricCold said:

Exactly and @Rasdan shared the same general opinion and probably got scared off the forums because of the toxicity thrown his way for trying to find an alternative

You both share the opinion of a newbie, who refuses to look into the issue. Whatever you call toxicity is the experience from longtime players who figured it out.

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