Wouldn't it make sense for tenet melee weapons to be tradable ?

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)phire42 said:

Ninjas play for free. Are you not a ninja?

We haven’t been “ninjas” for a vary long time.  

 

4 hours ago, (XBOX)phire42 said:

Artists made an experience. They want to incentivize as many people as possible to experience their art. They don't want some people to skip the art and others to slog through their art for profit. 

There is plenty of “art” in Warframe unfortunately not a whole lot of it makes sense. And no we don’t need any more. They need to stop making art and start making sense.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)phire42 said:

Ninjas play for free. Are you not a ninja?

We haven’t been “ninjas” for a vary long time.  

 

4 hours ago, (XBOX)phire42 said:

Artists made an experience. They want to incentivize as many people as possible to experience their art. They don't want some people to skip the art and others to slog through their art for profit. 

There is plenty of “art” in Warframe unfortunately not a whole lot of it makes sense. They need to stop making art and start making sense.

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Tesseract7777 said:

And we experienced it in the Sevagoth quest Call of the Tempestarii. 

We don't need to experience it over and over and over again. 

That is a simple matter of opinion and I cant say I share it. I really didnt mind the storms as a mode to obtain new weapons. I dont think there is another place I'd rather do to get them atm. They could add it to sisters sure, but that would just add 4 more prog weapons to roll through to get the correct one you want. And I rather spend 5-6 minutes on a void storm with a 37.5% chance for 10 keys than spending 3-ish minutes on a trivial low level mission with a 100/x chance for the right weapon before being able to start the actual unlock process of it.

[PublikDomain]

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So this week I finally got the radiation tenet agendus I was looking for.

I have been waiting for this for weeks to show.

During which time I have completed quite a few liches/sisters , fissures and void storms.

And after getting it I felt it was such a waste of time , I would rather have bought a lich/sister for plat if it was available.

So I thought to myself , fool why aren't the tenet weapons from Perrin tradable. I really could not find an answer other than " cause DE wants us to do void storms to get holokeys".

To which I thought , if they were tradable , and since the stats are random ,  won't people just do more void storms so they can trade them away and people that would like to avoid void storms just buy it instead ? I mean once I have all the weapons with the ideal stats (which I now do), I won't be bothering with them again (unless they rework it to be more enjoyable). But if I could trade them , I may keep a 50% weapon handy for trade later (like i do for liches and sisters)

Players get what they want (weapons or plat) , DE gets player counts on a regular basis for a mission type (and more plat sales for weapon slots).

Do you feel there is validity in making them tradable ? Let me know your thoughts.

They'd be tradable if Sisters could just spawn with melee weapons from the start. The whole Holokey thing is a half-step from greatness and I've got no idea if DE is even aware of it. Add all Tenet weapons to Glast's shop rotation, add all Kuva weapons to a new shop with Cressa or Palladino, let Sisters spawn with melee Tenet weapons, let unwanted Tenet/Kuva weapons and Hounds be sold at the shops for Holokeys, and add some evergreens. That'd fix a lot of problems with Liches and Sisters. No more abort-farming Cassini a dozen times for the right weapon and more reasons to keep playing them after you have all the weapons and Hounds.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

Mobile Defense isn't art either.

Everything is Mobile defense. I wouldn’t call standing around waiting on a timer art. I’d call it something else. Lol

[Tesseract7777]

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is a simple matter of opinion and I cant say I share it. I really didnt mind the storms as a mode to obtain new weapons. I dont think there is another place I'd rather do to get them atm. They could add it to sisters sure, but that would just add 4 more prog weapons to roll through to get the correct one you want. And I rather spend 5-6 minutes on a void storm with a 37.5% chance for 10 keys than spending 3-ish minutes on a trivial low level mission with a 100/x chance for the right weapon before being able to start the actual unlock process of it.

I understand a lot of this is going to come down to opinion, but I am interested in people explaining how this is different from anything else in the game? 

You don't have to do Tridolon if you want the arcanes. You can use plat. You can buy necramech parts from people, and so, so many other things. Tenet melees are not the rule, they are a rare, rare, rare exception. 

How is content mainly being done by a core of people who sell to others who don't want to do that thing any different from so many other pieces of Warframe content? 

There is a core of people who do Profit Taker and sell arcanes, a core of people who do Tridolons and sell arcanes, and most others give it a miss. 

I'm just confused I guess why people are acting like Tenet melees are somehow sacred when if anything they are an exception to Warframe's usual game model. 

It is not that I want to buy them with platinum, to be honest I am not particularly interested in any of the current tenet weapons, they just don't speak to me. They weren't the ones I wanted upgraded. But for the health of the game, I want those without as much time on their hands to play, or those who would rather play other content, be able to buy stuff they want with plat from that content from the market or through trading. It has worked for the vast majority of the game so far and I don't see why it can't be applied to Tenet melees? 

Even with ALL the toned down effects and graphics toned down, void storms are unpleasant for my eyeballs and can inflame my allergic eyes and give me migraines. 

Should I be hypothetically forced (if I was interested in the tenet weapons) to do void storms over and over because a few stubborn players want to draw a line in the sand on these handful of melee weapons? And make myself sick? So a few people can say that a handful of weapons are "sacred" and cannot be bought with plat or something. 

[BiancaRoughfin]

As someone who very rarely buys anything from other players and often helps others providing some mods or carrying them to missions, i prefer these Tenet weapons remained untradeable to give me more reasons to do Railjack missions despite having maxed out everything and to give other players seeking these weapons the same insentive. I like taking friends in missions, especially newer ones to Railjack missions and watch them get thrilled with the game mode. Despite for most veterans it being a waste of time, i manage to find joy in it.

[Berzerkules]

9 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

They'd be tradable if Sisters could just spawn with melee weapons from the start. The whole Holokey thing is a half-step from greatness and I've got no idea if DE is even aware of it. Add all Tenet weapons to Glast's shop rotation, add all Kuva weapons to a new shop with Cressa or Palladino, let Sisters spawn with melee Tenet weapons, let unwanted Tenet/Kuva weapons and Hounds be sold at the shops for Holokeys, and add some evergreens. That'd fix a lot of problems with Liches and Sisters. No more abort-farming Cassini a dozen times for the right weapon and more reasons to keep playing them after you have all the weapons and Hounds.

This right here would fix so much. Seems so obvious.

 

[Tesseract7777]

24 minutes ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

We haven’t been “ninjas” for a vary long time.  

 

There is plenty of “art” in Warframe unfortunately not a whole lot of it makes sense. They need to stop making art and start making sense.

I don't mind developers enjoying full graphic settings on their engine and flexing their artistic muscle, but giving people migraines and seizures, imo, is not "artistic". 

I just think it is freaking hilarious how many people are calling void storms "art". 

They are regular rj missions with flashing lights that make people like me literally sick to the point I have to turn off the game and go lie down in the dark. 

If that's art, it is really crappy art, and no one should ever be expected to experience it over and over, much less even ONCE. 

The way they were designed was trash, hard on people's eyeballs even after they toned it down a bunch even with totally lowered settings, and there is ZERO defense for void storms as they currently stand. They should be skippable, as they can literally STILL make people sick, and it is indefensible tbh. 

I want to be clear, this is totally not personal against the devs. They are cool people, I don't think they meant to hurt anyone on purpose, and they have tried to tone it down several times. But it was a mistake, and they should by NO MEANS be mandatory, unless ya'll want to put people in the hospital. :)

[TeaHands]

22 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

They'd be tradable if Sisters could just spawn with melee weapons from the start. The whole Holokey thing is a half-step from greatness and I've got no idea if DE is even aware of it. Add all Tenet weapons to Glast's shop rotation, add all Kuva weapons to a new shop with Cressa or Palladino, let Sisters spawn with melee Tenet weapons, let unwanted Tenet/Kuva weapons and Hounds be sold at the shops for Holokeys, and add some evergreens. That'd fix a lot of problems with Liches and Sisters. No more abort-farming Cassini a dozen times for the right weapon and more reasons to keep playing them after you have all the weapons and Hounds.

The whole Tenet Melee acquisition system feels like a work-around for not programming the Sisters to use their Melee weapons.

Which really is a shame because it would be hype as hell to see Sisters using these dope weapons and their unique abilities, and then finding out you get to use the abilities too! But, I'm guessing Sisters had to be rushed out the door so they could have all hands on deck for the new war.

Seriously though, fully fleshed out Kuva/Tenet shops would be a godsend and make it way easier to implement more of these types of weapons.

[SneakyErvin]

15 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I understand a lot of this is going to come down to opinion, but I am interested in people explaining how this is different from anything else in the game? 

You don't have to do Tridolon if you want the arcanes. You can use plat. You can buy necramech parts from people, and so, so many other things. Tenet melees are not the rule, they are a rare, rare, rare exception. 

How is content mainly being done by a core of people who sell to others who don't want to do that thing any different from so many other pieces of Warframe content? 

There is a core of people who do Profit Taker and sell arcanes, a core of people who do Tridolons and sell arcanes, and most others give it a miss. 

I'm just confused I guess why people are acting like Tenet melees are somehow sacred when if anything they are an exception to Warframe's usual game model. 

It is not that I want to buy them with platinum, to be honest I am not particularly interested in any of the current tenet weapons, they just don't speak to me. They weren't the ones I wanted upgraded. But for the health of the game, I want those without as much time on their hands to play, or those who would rather play other content, be able to buy stuff they want with plat from that content from the market or through trading. It has worked for the vast majority of the game so far and I don't see why it can't be applied to Tenet melees? 

Even with ALL the toned down effects and graphics toned down, void storms are unpleasant for my eyeballs and can inflame my allergic eyes and give me migraines. 

Should I be hypothetically forced (if I was interested in the tenet weapons) to do void storms over and over because a few stubborn players want to draw a line in the sand on these handful of melee weapons? And make myself sick? So a few people can say that a handful of weapons are "sacred" and cannot be bought with plat or something. 

For me it comes down to the difference of accessibility. Nothing in the game is as easy and quick to obtain as the tenet melee weapons. It is understandable that arcanes, low drop mods, low drop components and so on are tradable, but tenet melee are already so very easy to get in the mode they belong to that it isnt really comparable. The drop chance for keys is huge and the cost per weapon is low, and you can hold onto your keys till the right element or percentage pops on the vendor.

And sure it sucks that physical illness can get in the way, but you can avoid it already with tenet melee by running sisters instead. Yes it is slower, but it is an optional path to those melee weapons that avoids the storms alltogether. Not very different from grinding items to sell for plat so you can buy expensive arcanes instead of fighting eidolons.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I got 60 holokeys in less than 2 weeks not even trying. 

Basically what we're saying is you can wait and put the work in if you really want it that bad.

I hope DE doesn't cave on this issue because really good weapons should have value beyond me using my wallet.

Have you read about Holokeys workshop and what people complained about?

To make it simple, some players gets very few holokeys spending much more time than you (probably).

And that's only one issue of this mode.

30 minutes ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

They need to stop making art and start making sense.

This! I like/love some songs and some melee weapons (I'm little nerdy about weapons... little). However stuffs should be playable not just looks/sounds great.

[PublikDomain]

6 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

The whole Tenet Melee acquisition system feels like a work-around for not programming the Sisters to use their Melee weapons.

Which really is a shame because it would be hype as hell to see Sisters using these dope weapons and their unique abilities, and then finding out you get to use the abilities too! But, I'm guessing Sisters had to be rushed out the door so they could have all hands on deck for the new war.

I don't want to think that way, but it's honestly the kind of corner DE would cut nowadays.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, quxier said:

Have you read about Holokeys workshop and what people complained about?

To make it simple, some players gets very few holokeys spending much more time than you (probably).

And that's only one issue of this mode.

This! I like/love some songs and some melee weapons (I'm little nerdy about weapons... little). However stuffs should be playable not just looks/sounds great.

There is still an avarage time per weapon. A game shouldnt be balanced around the most unlucky. A tenet melee takes on avarage 45 minutes to get and the quickest time per weapon would be 20-25 minutes.

[KittySkin]

Yes, they should be traded. Im amazed that they released them without being this way from the very beggining.

[Berzerkules]

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is still an avarage time per weapon. A game shouldnt be balanced around the most unlucky. A tenet melee takes on avarage 45 minutes to get and the quickest time per weapon would be 20-25 minutes.

Getting keys is just the beginning though. Waiting 4 days for yet another batch of trash roll weapons with the wrong damage type is the real grind. 

It's delayed gratification. You first farm the resources but then get slapped with a time gated rng wall. It's obnoxious because your invested time and effort has very little outcome on the reward. 

I made myself play voidstorms until I had enough keys to buy at least one of each weapon just incase a good one popped up. Now I wait. There is nothing I can do if I want a radiation grigori for example. It is 100% out of my control even though I have done the farm. Until I see a weapon worth buying I have no reason to farm more keys. What's the point, I'll just wait an indefinite period of time before I actually get what I want. 

If I could buy the weapon or farm it like any other sister/lich weapon I would have the weapon I want at R40 and 60% in the time it takes to wait for the next rotation. I can't progress at my own pace with Tenet melee weapons. It's 100% dependent on rng. 

[quxier]

54 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is still an avarage time per weapon. A game shouldnt be balanced around the most unlucky. A tenet melee takes on avarage 45 minutes to get and the quickest time per weapon would be 20-25 minutes.

That's assuming you have good team/rj. Getting good RJ gear takes time as well, even more if you are solo player.

45 minutes? Let's take 5 minutes per mission (it took me much more afair but it's RJ and stuffs...). You need 40 Holos, 10 per mission. In 45 mission you could do 9 missions. That's 4/9 ~= 44% (holo % is ~37%).

Now take 3 minutes per mission. 15 mission and you need 4 successful one. That's ~27%. That's more reasonable % of drops per mission however 3 minutes are not realistic... at least not when you want to talk about average (you shouldn't talk about unlucky/weak but about lucky/strong players as well).

[0_The_F00l]

3 hours ago, Merrcenary said:

then you can also skip them😉

Already got what i needed mate , and i say its a waste of time to wait three months for getting what you want with no way but to depend on RNG to shine its light on you.

Also "you can skip them" is a very poor justification for a poor system, especially considering you are arguing that players should not be skipping the game mechanics.

Do you realize how illogical that sounds. telling people to skip playing but also to not skip playing?

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

They'd be tradable if Sisters could just spawn with melee weapons from the start. The whole Holokey thing is a half-step from greatness and I've got no idea if DE is even aware of it. Add all Tenet weapons to Glast's shop rotation, add all Kuva weapons to a new shop with Cressa or Palladino, let Sisters spawn with melee Tenet weapons, let unwanted Tenet/Kuva weapons and Hounds be sold at the shops for Holokeys, and add some evergreens. That'd fix a lot of problems with Liches and Sisters. No more abort-farming Cassini a dozen times for the right weapon and more reasons to keep playing them after you have all the weapons and Hounds.

1 hour ago, TomCruisesSon said:

The whole Tenet Melee acquisition system feels like a work-around for not programming the Sisters to use their Melee weapons.

Which really is a shame because it would be hype as hell to see Sisters using these dope weapons and their unique abilities, and then finding out you get to use the abilities too! But, I'm guessing Sisters had to be rushed out the door so they could have all hands on deck for the new war.

Seriously though, fully fleshed out Kuva/Tenet shops would be a godsend and make it way easier to implement more of these types of weapons.

I agree with this sentiment , i feel they rushed the sisters , didnt manage to get them to work with the melee weapons before launch and just dumped everything in a shop cause they couldn't be bothered to actually fix it later.

There are ways in which they could implement it in shops and still allow for limited randomness to keep it in rotation.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is still an avarage time per weapon. A game shouldnt be balanced around the most unlucky. A tenet melee takes on avarage 45 minutes to get and the quickest time per weapon would be 20-25 minutes.

It took me 3 months to get the weapon i wanted not cause i didnt get the keys  , this was after i had already gotten one of each type of tenet weapon by farming for the holokeys early (before they increased the quantity).

3 months to wait for the tenet Agendus to be available with a radiation bonus. Every few days i would check the shop to see if it had the weapon.

Do you not get the issue or do you not really care about what elemental bonus exists on the weapon you plan to use? and are just concerned for gaining mastery ? Its not about just the holokeys , its about the holokeys and needing to wait for the right element.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, TomCruisesSon said:

The whole Tenet Melee acquisition system feels like a work-around for not programming the Sisters to use their Melee weapons.

Which really is a shame because it would be hype as hell to see Sisters using these dope weapons and their unique abilities, and then finding out you get to use the abilities too! But, I'm guessing Sisters had to be rushed out the door so they could have all hands on deck for the new war.

Seriously though, fully fleshed out Kuva/Tenet shops would be a godsend and make it way easier to implement more of these types of weapons.

I remember many people not even being able to handle an Acolytes Scythe lift status being applied to them. 

Not sure the average player could handle AI coming at them and doing a full combo. It would require them to move around too much.

[PublikDomain]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I remember many people not even being able to handle an Acolytes Scythe lift status being applied to them. 

Not sure the average player could handle AI coming at them and doing a full combo. It would require them to move around too much.

And yet melee Liches are fine. Why would melee Sisters be any different?

[traybong111]

I mean, we can't really directly trade the Lich weapons, the only way is to trade the Lichs and the buyer still has to go through the murmur grind and confront the Lichs to get their hands on the weapons. I think Tenet melees aren't directly tradable because DE was rushing and they couldn't think of another such roundabout trade to attach. Kuva Shildeg exists so we know melee Lichs are possible--I guess they didn't have enough time for 4 different melee animations on Sisters or something? I'm not sure why we can't directly trade Lich weapons either and maybe DE will change their minds about them later down the line, but it is what it is now. 

And yes, ideally I think all Lich weapons should be individually & directly tradable. Tenet melee shouldn't have been separated into this weird RNG store of their own either. I don't like these inconsistencies borne from DE's rush and corner cuts either but since these are annoyances and not literally bricking the game chances are they will stay that way. It's a shame really. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

41 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And yet melee Liches are fine. Why would melee Sisters be any different?

I don't know I'm just thinking out loud. Whatever stance the Agendus uses has a gnarly multi hit combo that I can see someone complaining about for example. 

I think it's a good idea either way.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Getting keys is just the beginning though. Waiting 4 days for yet another batch of trash roll weapons with the wrong damage type is the real grind. 

It's delayed gratification. You first farm the resources but then get slapped with a time gated rng wall. It's obnoxious because your invested time and effort has very little outcome on the reward. 

I made myself play voidstorms until I had enough keys to buy at least one of each weapon just incase a good one popped up. Now I wait. There is nothing I can do if I want a radiation grigori for example. It is 100% out of my control even though I have done the farm. Until I see a weapon worth buying I have no reason to farm more keys. What's the point, I'll just wait an indefinite period of time before I actually get what I want. 

If I could buy the weapon or farm it like any other sister/lich weapon I would have the weapon I want at R40 and 60% in the time it takes to wait for the next rotation. I can't progress at my own pace with Tenet melee weapons. It's 100% dependent on rng. 

Well obviously the vendor is a problem of its own, but the farm itself is fast. You arent locked grinding void storms when you have the keys, you are free to do whatever when you wait on the vendor. The vendor could be done differently.

16 hours ago, quxier said:

That's assuming you have good team/rj. Getting good RJ gear takes time as well, even more if you are solo player.

45 minutes? Let's take 5 minutes per mission (it took me much more afair but it's RJ and stuffs...). You need 40 Holos, 10 per mission. In 45 mission you could do 9 missions. That's 4/9 ~= 44% (holo % is ~37%).

Now take 3 minutes per mission. 15 mission and you need 4 successful one. That's ~27%. That's more reasonable % of drops per mission however 3 minutes are not realistic... at least not when you want to talk about average (you shouldn't talk about unlucky/weak but about lucky/strong players as well).

That is all solo with a good RJ doing the correct missions. And your gearing towards one thing should not be added to the time gearing for something else. If you add it up like that then the latest thing released will always be the slowest grind in the game.

And yes 45 minutes is the avarage. I've lucked out on a few sessions and been done in 20-25 minutes, then other sessions I've had to make use of the full fissure rotation for a weapon, so 45 minutes is a pretty spot on avarage given that a fissure is up for a wee bit over 1 hour.

15 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

It took me 3 months to get the weapon i wanted not cause i didnt get the keys  , this was after i had already gotten one of each type of tenet weapon by farming for the holokeys early (before they increased the quantity).

3 months to wait for the tenet Agendus to be available with a radiation bonus. Every few days i would check the shop to see if it had the weapon.

Do you not get the issue or do you not really care about what elemental bonus exists on the weapon you plan to use? and are just concerned for gaining mastery ? Its not about just the holokeys , its about the holokeys and needing to wait for the right element.

And that is a whole different issue. The main complaint regarding the system has still been on the keys, which are easy to get. I do care about the element, but I also dont have a massive urge for any of the weapons. So the wait isnt really an issue for me. It could obviously be done better, I just dont think opening up trading is the answer, since it doesnt solve the actual problem.

A shorter time between refreshes, maybe a way to pay to make him refresh the element but not the % value and so on.

 

[quxier]

26 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And your gearing towards one thing should not be added to the time gearing for something else. If you add it up like that then the latest thing released will always be the slowest grind in the game.

I would say "yes and no".

In case of new frames if you have already previous frames then I guess you had upgraded mods already. Getting & using new frame would be just farming it (which can be problematic if there is stupid rng/grind) and just leveling it up to 30. With some future update it will be even faster because you will have abilities unlocked (per MR).

In case of Mechs & RJ it's almost Tabula rasa. You cannot use previous mods. It will be slower not because it's the "latest" thing but it's because it uses different mods.

35 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And yes 45 minutes is the avarage. I've lucked out on a few sessions and been done in 20-25 minutes, then other sessions I've had to make use of the full fissure rotation for a weapon, so 45 minutes is a pretty spot on avarage given that a fissure is up for a wee bit over 1 hour.

You are using "good gear". Is it average gear used between players? I bet there are players that uses good gear like you but there will be players with basic & something between gear.

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, quxier said:

I would say "yes and no".

In case of new frames if you have already previous frames then I guess you had upgraded mods already. Getting & using new frame would be just farming it (which can be problematic if there is stupid rng/grind) and just leveling it up to 30. With some future update it will be even faster because you will have abilities unlocked (per MR).

In case of Mechs & RJ it's almost Tabula rasa. You cannot use previous mods. It will be slower not because it's the "latest" thing but it's because it uses different mods.

You are using "good gear". Is it average gear used between players? I bet there are players that uses good gear like you but there will be players with basic & something between gear.

 

But RJ isnt new when compared to the content we discuss which is storms. RJ had been out for a long long time before storms were introduced, so you should have a RJ ready to tackle those. If you started out when storms were released it would be the same as everything else in the game. If I hadnt played WF prior to arbitrations it would be the same long grind to progress, it wouldnt mean that arbitrations are a slow grind though.

And yes, the good gear is avarage gear used between players. It is more or less impossible not to get that gear for the RJ since RJ gearing is just that simple. If players use basic or in between gear then they clearly arent ready to do the proper missions for the best efficiency. It is the same in the whole game. Being able to do "harder" content is obviously more rewarding and efficient. Just as someone can slogg through capture for relics or target farm specific ones in disruption, or how people can far normal kuva fortress for only kuva or farm steel path kuva fortress for kuva and essence for even more kuva per minute.