The impact AoE nerf could have

[-EPECb-]

29 минут назад, (XBOX)Ampathetiic сказал:

Unfortunately we are dealing with a developer team that isn't filled to the brim with programmers who actually work on the gameplay and bug fixing side of things. The devs that are there obviously care about those changes, but there aren't enough of them to work on old content while also developing new content, which is why it takes so long for good changes to be made.

I can understand that too, but DE needs to radically change something in their project, otherwise they will be forgotten. Not right now and not tomorrow, over time the game will fade away. I wouldn't want that. That's why I strongly advise them to do something with that what we have now in game. Many things in their project need revision. For example, the same consumables for replenishing ammunition (Tell me when was the last time you used them?) and too high amount of ammunition for some weapons in starting - it's all in an imbalance too.

DE need to do something right now, before it's too late.

Here is another topic in which I touch on Smeeta excessive popularity and interesting cut-out content that could have been fixed very easily, but DE ruined everything.

DE definitely doing something wrong... (my opinion)

[Surbusken]

This seems like an apology tour to me.

Same way the quote you link, tries to spin it as a "fix", in fact we are doing you a favor!

 

Here is the thing, they got x numbers of problems, x number of glitches, x number of frames that need optimizing, x number of weapons etc. etc.

 

Going after wukong... 3 years later, really only demonstrates how far behind they are. And is going to do exactly zero for the 'balance'.

Deleting one random item, out of thousands, is only going to annoy the players who invested into the game, nothing else.

Which is the futility of nerfs, everytime.

You can't add by subtracting. You can spend your time deleting gameplay or spend the same time repairing gameplay.

 

People aren't playing certain frames, ok. Is deleting wukong going to make anyone play grendel? lol

Waste of time, pointless.

 

To 'balance' the game, first you would need a baseline, which they still don't have, don't want one because they don't want players to be able to hold them accountable.

Then, you have to go over everything in the whole game to match it, to the baseline.

Every mod, damage type, weapon, frame ability etc. etc.

 

Envoking the word 'balance' as some type of shield, is just a weak excuse, trying to rationalize pointless behavior, wasting time they don't have.

It's an empty statement.

People are just going to move on to the next, second most efficient thing, or... quit the game.

No one is going to start using singleshot weapons because you delete the zarr. Best you can hope for, is players having their content deleted, don't leave the game out of frustration.

Let's not forget frames and weapons, forma and reactors cost money.

You'd be hard pressed, to find another industry, where it's okay to reduce the quality of a product, after a sale.

 

All deletion of gameplay should grant a refund, that's the reality of the situation.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

1 hour ago, -EPECb- said:

I can understand that too, but DE needs to radically change something in their project, otherwise they will be forgotten. Not right now and not tomorrow, over time the game will fade away. I wouldn't want that. That's why I strongly advise them to do something with that what we have now in game. Many things in their project need revision.

I 100% agree that there are a lot of things in Warframe that need to be revised and polished, but Warframe's future isn't riding on those revisions: Warframe has been growing steadily, adding new high quality content regularly, and they seem to be doing quite well. The game definitely has issues, and it's frustrating as a long-time player to see those issues seemingly ignored for ages, but Warframe is generally in a good spot right now, and there's always new content around the corner to be excited about.

Warframe can always do better, but it's good enough for now, provided that DE don't screw anything up later on.

[Tiltskillet]

6 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Just a small point, and I don't know which video (dev stream or tennocon)... but in one of them, when Reb was talking about the usage stat, she said it counted missions completed with that gear, and NOT the amount of time spent in the mission. SO if you run a bunch of captures with a certain gear setup, even if you don't kill anything with your secondary weapon, for instance, it'll still get a usage bump in your stats, just cuz you had it sitting on your hip in more missions total.

What I've been told is that the usage% only considers weapons that are unholstered--so mostly just one weapon at a time.  I can't say it's indisputable fact, but it matches pretty well with my experience. 

That might or might not dovetail with what you wrote, but if you do recall any details about where or when she said this, it's a subject I'm curious about.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

5 hours ago, Surbusken said:

This seems like an apology tour to me.

Same way the quote you link, tries to spin it as a "fix", in fact we are doing you a favor!

 

Here is the thing, they got x numbers of problems, x number of glitches, x number of frames that need optimizing, x number of weapons etc. etc.

 

Going after wukong... 3 years later, really only demonstrates how far behind they are. And is going to do exactly zero for the 'balance'.

Deleting one random item, out of thousands, is only going to annoy the players who invested into the game, nothing else.

Which is the futility of nerfs, everytime.

You can't add by subtracting. You can spend your time deleting gameplay or spend the same time repairing gameplay.

 

People aren't playing certain frames, ok. Is deleting wukong going to make anyone play grendel? lol

Waste of time, pointless.

 

To 'balance' the game, first you would need a baseline, which they still don't have, don't want one because they don't want players to be able to hold them accountable.

Then, you have to go over everything in the whole game to match it, to the baseline.

Every mod, damage type, weapon, frame ability etc. etc.

 

Envoking the word 'balance' as some type of shield, is just a weak excuse, trying to rationalize pointless behavior, wasting time they don't have.

It's an empty statement.

People are just going to move on to the next, second most efficient thing, or... quit the game.

No one is going to start using singleshot weapons because you delete the zarr. Best you can hope for, is players having their content deleted, don't leave the game out of frustration.

Let's not forget frames and weapons, forma and reactors cost money.

You'd be hard pressed, to find another industry, where it's okay to reduce the quality of a product, after a sale.

 

All deletion of gameplay should grant a refund, that's the reality of the situation.

I know that none of us read the legal jargin when we first download a new game, but a portion of that legal jargin that you agree to says "X company allows you to play this game and they can do whatever they want with the game." DE are giving you an experience, they can choose the parameters of that experience, the time and money you invest is up to your discretion, and they don't need to keep an item the way it is just because you decided to pay for it or spend hours perfecting the build for it. It feels bad, but that's your problem for chasing a game's META.

On top of that, nothing is being "deleted." Stop overreacting.

[Surbusken]

7 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

I know that none of us read the legal jargin when we first download a new game, but a portion of that legal jargin that you agree to says "X company allows you to play this game and they can do whatever they want with the game." DE are giving you an experience, they can choose the parameters of that experience, the time and money you invest is up to your discretion, and they don't need to keep an item the way it is just because you decided to pay for it or spend hours perfecting the build for it. It feels bad, but that's your problem for chasing a game's META.

On top of that, nothing is being "deleted." Stop overreacting.

More to the point, it shows a lack of principle, a guideline, a format, a standard.

... just like the game doesn't have any standard.

 

The reason there is, and should be, regulation in all types of industry is obvious. World does not work around good faith.

 

Notepad stats manipulation of 'flavor of the month' is as old as video games themselves. For instance nerfing kuvor nukor, when it's time to sell tenet liches.

I am saying, it's fine to kill of content, after a sale - aslong as people then get their money back.

Imagine video game developers being held accountable, might just have to actually respect the customer - and I mean it's double hilarious, you can sit there as a player and advocate against consumer rights. Benedict Arnold?

 

How is is possible to release something like fallout 76 or cyberpunk, with no consequences - well, exactly that. Because there are no consequences.

Some poor schmuck is always going to preorder.

 

... meaning the absolute only regulation and quality control of video games being done, is by people complaining.

[KitMeHarder]

7 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I'd be willing to bet more people use wisp specters than wukong specters.

Sure, but I think it's fair to say people use abilities significantly more than they use WF specters. So the fact Wukong exclusively has both his clone and Ability Kinesis, far exceeds the slight difference in specter usage.

And when you're new, you tend to use specters of whatever frame you happen to have (leveled), and WK/WK prime is significantly easier to get than Wisp. I.E. I used the Staticor when I was new and it's still my most used secondary... I haven't used the Staticor in 2.5 years. I'm no longer new, but all those other new players...

9 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

aren't necessarily going to be the same, nor have the same limitations. Like there will probably be overlap, but theirs will likely have more depth and context.

That makes no sense. Even if it's presented differently, there's no logic as to why it shouldn't be the same data. And at the very least nothing you brought up could explain how this bug wouldn't affect the dev's data all the same.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

8 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

More to the point, it shows a lack of principle, a guideline, a format, a standard.

... just like the game doesn't have any standard.

 

The reason there is, and should be, regulation in all types of industry is obvious. World does not work around good faith.

 

Notepad stats manipulation of 'flavor of the month' is as old as video games themselves. For instance nerfing kuvor nukor, when it's time to sell tenet liches.

I am saying, it's fine to kill of content, after a sale - aslong as people then get their money back.

Imagine video game developers being held accountable, might just have to actually respect the customer - and I mean it's double hilarious, you can sit there as a player and advocate against consumer rights. Benedict Arnold?

 

How is is possible to release something like fallout 76 or cyberpunk, with no consequences - well, exactly that. Because there are no consequences.

Some poor schmuck is always going to preorder.

 

... meaning the absolute only regulation and quality control of video games being done, is by people complaining.

As far as I know, it's pretty easy to regulate something like a drug when we're able to test its biological effects on a large amount of people. On the other hand, it seems pretty difficult- even impossible- to objectively measure how fun a game is for the general public. Do you have some insight that the rest of humanity is missing out on?

21 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

and I mean it's double hilarious, you can sit there as a player and advocate against consumer rights. Benedict Arnold?

I'm not advocating against consumer rights; I'm just saying you're irrational.

[KitMeHarder]

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Yes the usage stat for 2020 and 2021 has been accurate for me

Do you heavily use specters/frames that create clones so that you'd be able to notice a difference? And for everything in this part you are just as anecdotal. 

If you'd like to prove me wrong factually, you'd have to build a specter of a frame and go into PoE with a different frame for a hour or two and see if the specter frame usage rate changed after you return to Cetus. Or even better yet do it on a new account with a specter of a frame you haven't even equipped. If you're dissatisfied with what I've presented, go get your own non-anecdotal proof. (If you are hell-bent the clone is different, then you'd have to do two multi-hour sessions, one with and without the clone active (and even then you'd still be a bit off unless you mathed it perfectly).) 

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I do not recollect that statement being made in either of the media.

Did you even read the part where Pablo defined Breadth and Depth?

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Atleast i only speak for my own experiences.

So an anecdotal account, with nothing backing it up, not even other anecdotal accounts.

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

But when you claim something as being outright "wrong"

I put a caveat in my original post, so don't put words in my mouth. And this game is not very conducive towards quantifying usage rate data, as I you can't see anything DE doesn't already give you. I simply shared this to suggest to people that there might be a reason to lower the pitchforks (and hopefully get the attention of the devs that do have the access).

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

But if they have empirical data there is little reason for them to show incorrect information

Bugs tend to not be purposeful. There's a very big distinction there that I guess you're not getting.

[Surbusken]

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

As far as I know, it's pretty easy to regulate something like a drug when we're able to test its biological effects on a large amount of people. On the other hand, it seems pretty difficult- even impossible- to objectively measure how fun a game is for the general public. Do you have some insight that the rest of humanity is missing out on?

I'm not advocating against consumer rights; I'm just saying you're irrational.

Refund is an irrational subject?

Talking about gameplay quality control, regulation of the video game industry, is controversial?

I think you are reaching.

Only thing I can't wrap my head around, why are you apologizing for developers, what is your objective?

To ask for less quality and less accountability? Is that how we are getting better games, to be less critical?

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

3 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Refund is an irrational subject?

Yes, asking for a refund because the devs nerfed an item is irrational.

4 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Talking about gameplay quality control, regulation of the video game industry, is controversial?

When you want to objectively regulate the industry based on subjective criteria, yes.

7 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Only thing I can't wrap my head around, why are you apologizing for developers, what is your objective?

To ask for less quality and less accountability? Is that how we are getting better games, to be less critical?

I criticize parts of the game if I think they deserve it, but I'm not gonna support every piece of feedback someone contributes when I don't agree with it; if someone criticizes the newest IPhone for not helping them brush their teeth, I'm gonna say that their feedback is nonsense. In this case, I'm not even apologizing for the developers, because the developers didn't do anything wrong by nerfing items (if anything, they're doing something right in my eyes because I've asked for these items to be nerfed). 

[(PSN)Xachary_Cross]

Thing is, the raw usage isn't reliable. Usage will vary by the most rewarding mission types and the most efficient frame for doing those, even if the frame has literally one ability out of 4 to do it.

 

If they ever want to "even out" frames, they also would probably have to shift the game from "Everything is solo-able". Tank roles can't even actually tank, so a chunk of frames that would theoretically fill those rolls already fall to the bottom outside of early brute forcing for new players. Half (or more) of the DPS/Carries( for moba lingo) also have insane defensive abilties,, again because "everything is solo-able" means they can't have a requirement for a support or tank.

 

Wukong is for his part, not exceptionally great. He does have very good usage at speedrunning missions (which ties into rapid running missions for rewards) He's a very solid all-rounder but lacks crowd handling abilities (which if the AoE weapon class gets cut back on will hinder him). He is (amusingly) the one true tank that can actually pull aggro, though probably no one is using him for that.

 

Like to break down Wukong. Solid base stats, not an upper tier tank, but not squishy either.

Clone - The clone is *abysmal* if you put it in melee mode. And even with a gun, only works if the gun is the most brain off imaginable build. The Zarr is probably the only weapon the clone does use effectively because the AI will consistently fire at things behind walls, out of range, etc.

Cloudwalker - Its good for speed and probably the best in class for traversal abilities (which are in themselves a speedrun niche, as base Warframe parkour speeds (or Operator dashes) are more then adequate), but it doesn't bring much to an actual fight.

Defy - The one true tank skill in the game. That said, it's not a particularly wide aggro pull, nor is the buff outstanding or best in class amongst a sea of powerful defense buffs that are often far more passive. Since damage to an invulnerable unit also don't proc on Hit effects, you can't even really build synergies off it.

Iron Staff - Weirdly, considering it was introduced as a "preview" of the melee changes. Iron Staff was one of many weapons kind of left behind by them (the damage rebalancing bit) You'll see some folks popping it out with the novelty range build on it, but not many and its usually the one thats axed for a Helminth.

[Surbusken]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

Yes, asking for a refund because the devs nerfed an item is irrational.

When you want to objectively regulate the industry based on subjective criteria, yes.

I criticize parts of the game if I think they deserve it, but I'm not gonna support every piece of feedback someone contributes when I don't agree with it; if someone criticizes the newest IPhone for not helping them brush their teeth, I'm gonna say that their feedback is nonsense. In this case, I'm not even apologizing for the developers, because the developers didn't do anything wrong by nerfing items (if anything, they're doing something right in my eyes because I've asked for these items to be nerfed). 

So you are the only one allowed to complain, because you are so brilliant?

[-EPECb-]

6 часов назад, (XBOX)Ampathetiic сказал:

Warframe is generally in a good spot right now

I keep an eye the statistics on Steam and I have a different opinion. I see a gradual decline of players despite their still high level. So DE can walk up to 10k online, well, they move in this way right now. 

The game is still in beta test, which also does not give it any advantages... most likely, DE thus relieves himself of a lot of responsibilities, but it's still not right. Testing the game for so many years and simultaneously releasing new content is ridiculous. Moreover, players through this forum report errors that happen in their "beta-game", but DE ignores most of these errors. They ignore the meaning of the BETA TEST itself! DE, test your game at the beginning, then exit the beta, and then add something new - that's correct actions. As a result, we have eternal bugs now. 

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Do you heavily use specters/frames that create clones so that you'd be able to notice a difference? And for everything in this part you are just as anecdotal.

Nope , i prefer to play the game myself instead of letting an aimbot play it for me.

Never claimed i was giving anything but my opinion.

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

If you'd like to prove me wrong factually, you'd have to build a specter of a frame and go into PoE with a different frame for a hour or two and see if the specter frame usage rate changed after you return to Cetus. Or even better yet do it on a new account with a specter of a frame you haven't even equipped. If you're dissatisfied with what I've presented, go get your own non-anecdotal proof. (If you are hell-bent the clone is different, then you'd have to do two multi-hour sessions, one with and without the clone active (and even then you'd still be a bit off unless you mathed it perfectly).)

I have no intention to waste my time , as i said , you are free to believe what you want, and possibility of errors always exist.

you however are free to show me the numbers, and any "proof" if you are so inclined , burden of proof and all that. You still need the entire data of the player base to come up with any comparable statistics. None of those that you quoted actually gave any numbers.

Even IF there is a cloned stat (hah) on usage , would that not affect the more popular spectre preferences as well ?

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Did you even read the part where Pablo defined Breadth and Depth?

No , i saw and heard it actually.

One is how many players use it , and the other is how frequently they use it,

Shown as a graph against a log scale of 10K breadth on X against and a depth of 15 on Y ? god knows what those number actually reference , also dont know what scaling is used and what the parameters of the usage are actually used (mission time? experience? enemies killed? number of missions?)

and is not very clear what the time scale on it is or if primes are kept separate.

It is also mentioned this is specifically for MR 25 players (and higher i think?), so this does not even include new players,

While the usage stats for 2020 and 2021 show a combined MR rank usage (the #*!% is that usage based on again?) as a percentage and an overall heat map per MR,

it is unlikely we can create a chart using just the data you can see on the stats page and vice versa - It is not enough.

Both the Chart shown by pablo and the stats shown on the warframe page are Subsets of much larger more exhaustive datasets , the type that takes more than the alphabet to cover all the columns.

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

So an anecdotal account, with nothing backing it up, not even other anecdotal accounts.

Yup , never claimed other wise.

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

I put a caveat in my original post, so don't put words in my mouth. And this game is not very conducive towards quantifying usage rate data, as I you can't see anything DE doesn't already give you. I simply shared this to suggest to people that there might be a reason to lower the pitchforks (and hopefully get the attention of the devs that do have the access).

Must have missed that caveat then , cause what i read implied the Devs have no clue what stats mean and just cause someone floated a random chart in front of them they believed it whole heartedly. Come on man , no matter how much they have acted like kids with ADHD , lets atleast give them that much benefit of the doubt. The only thing i would hold against them is sitting on this data for years before working on it. Which does smell a little iffy.

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Bugs tend to not be purposeful. There's a very big distinction there that I guess you're not getting.

We arent discussing bugs we are discussing accurate representation of information, according to you either

1) DE has no clue what the stats show - Ignorance due to clone /spectre mechanics impacting stats,

2) DE knows but chooses to not share it correctly - malice cause they just hate wukong

1 is possible , but since the only ones that actually have the data is DE there is little point in arguing about it.

[ant99999]

A bit off topic maybe but still

17 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The first, is simply 'how many options are practically viable' - that is to say, how many options can one use

The ammount of people I see who geniunely do not understand this is staggering.

Everything you say is absoultely correct of course. I just think the community can't possibly come to an agreement in regards to balance and power fantasy, when there are still people beating that damn dead horse of 'why do we need balance in a PvE game' to a condition of a smooth homogeneous paste.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

5 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

What I've been told is that the usage% only considers weapons that are unholstered--so mostly just one weapon at a time.  I can't say it's indisputable fact, but it matches pretty well with my experience. 

That might or might not dovetail with what you wrote, but if you do recall any details about where or when she said this, it's a subject I'm curious about.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/511849727?collection=A4xzptbjthQtfQ&t=00h17m56s

Dev Stream 133, Reb was going over Catchmoon usage stats and gave a brief definition of how the data was compiled. I don't know if that same criteria is for all usage stats... I don't know if this was the only time she said something about this... (I remember a stream with many many more stat graphs in it... probably earlier in 2019, before the nerf of Catchmoon in October, but I can't seem to find it... and I don't want to spend any more hours searching for it, sorry.)

[Tiltskillet]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/511849727?collection=A4xzptbjthQtfQ&t=00h17m56s

Dev Stream 133, Reb was going over Catchmoon usage stats and gave a brief definition of how the data was compiled. I don't know if that same criteria is for all usage stats... I don't know if this was the only time she said something about this... (I remember a stream with many many more stat graphs in it... probably earlier in 2019, before the nerf of Catchmoon in October, but I can't seem to find it... and I don't want to spend any more hours searching for it, sorry.)

No, that's great, thank you.

It could indicate they were or are calculating usage differently than I think.  Or that they have multiple ways of doing it.  It could also be that in an impromptu moment Reb didn't describe it exactly right.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

4 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

That makes no sense. Even if it's presented differently, there's no logic as to why it shouldn't be the same data. And at the very least nothing you brought up could explain how this bug wouldn't affect the dev's data all the same.

 

Thats not how logic or sense work. 

Its not just a term or concept a person can randomly invoke online to make their sentences seem more convincing. You establish it. Demonstrate it. Provide a bit of reasoning ideally. This makes no sense because... context. There is plenty of reason why it would be different, I gave some possible reasons. Like transparency. For example look at the in game rewards, I'll link them below. 

https://n8k6e2y6.ssl.hwcdn.net/repos/hnfvc0o3jnfvc873njb03enrf56.html

Pretty useful right? Even though its automatically generated, and comes with no guarantees. Still there are a lot of websites that take such info and make it more presentable for casual players? Why do you think that is? Why doesn't DE do that themselves?  Why do you think this list is also auto generated, and comes with no guarantees?

Also why don't we have a similar page for DE's financial strategies and extensive financial records around individual transactions? That makes no sense, why shouldn't it be the same?!? They show us some stuff, but why no all stuff? No logic!!

DE aren't working with the same tools we are. I don't know exactly what DE is working with, it very well could be possible that they are affected by the same bugs we are, and have no ways to account for them, and are working off the same flawed data we are. I personally wouldn't claim to know one way or another with certainty, I am just skeptical of random online people making claims which such certainty. More so when they seem to have lack of transparency, self serving interests to do so. Compare the difference between an open ended question looking for transparency, to a close ended claim carrying with it accusations and assumptions? 

Compare "Hey guys, do you think DE is aware about the Spectre bug? If thats a bug with our usage stats in our profiles, do you think there might be other usage bugs that are distorting their internal data and that it might be possible they are operating under extremely flawed data without knowing? Lets try and get some feedback on this, so Warframes aren't randomly changed for poor reasons."

with. 

"Pablo didn't question or understand this graph. I know this because it doesn't make sense. Wukong stats not normal. He simply looked at the numbers. He didn't account for Railjack and Spectres and Wukong clones, With Warframe Wukong, thats 4x2 equals 8. But if you add Kurt Angle to the mix? Wukong usage, drastic go down!".

[Spe_de_mix]

On 2022-08-08 at 1:49 PM, (PSN)STR8L8CED said:

I think the real problem here is when OP AOE weapons get used in regular star chart missions because not once have I ever heard anyone complain about them in SP. I understand the baby Tennos want to play with the big toys, I get that, but seeing a high MR bring those to a regular mission is what maybe this is really about. 

I don't know. I see plenty of situations in SP where if I didn't bring my Zarr with riven into a match, all I'll be doing is watching all the enemies getting one-shotted by someone else's Zarr or Bramma.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 hours ago, -EPECb- said:

I keep an eye the statistics on Steam and I have a different opinion. I see a gradual decline of players despite their still high level. So DE can walk up to 10k online, well, they move in this way right now. 

The game is still in beta test, which also does not give it any advantages... most likely, DE thus relieves himself of a lot of responsibilities, but it's still not right. Testing the game for so many years and simultaneously releasing new content is ridiculous. Moreover, players through this forum report errors that happen in their "beta-game", but DE ignores most of these errors. They ignore the meaning of the BETA TEST itself! DE, test your game at the beginning, then exit the beta, and then add something new - that's correct actions. As a result, we have eternal bugs now. 

Not everyone plays through steam. There are 3 consoles and people that don't start the game through steam.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2022-08-08 at 3:49 AM, (PSN)STR8L8CED said:

I think the real problem here is when OP AOE weapons get used in regular star chart missions because not once have I ever heard anyone complain about them in SP.

It's obviously far worse outside of SP. But I'm surprised you've never heard and apparently don't see the problem in Incursions at least.  Maybe a PC - PS difference?

[KitMeHarder]

3 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Pretty useful right? Even though its automatically generated, and comes with no guarantees. Still there are a lot of websites that take such info and make it more presentable for casual players? Why do you think that is? Why doesn't DE do that themselves?  Why do you think this list is also auto generated, and comes with no guarantees?

Also why don't we have a similar page for DE's financial strategies and extensive financial records around individual transactions? That makes no sense, why shouldn't it be the same?!? They show us some stuff, but why no all stuff? No logic!!

Your analogies don't work.

• The first is what I said, the same data presented differently. None of the questions you asked afterward mean anything, as they don't take away from the fact it's still identical data.
• In the second I don't even see how you'd think you could compare the usage rate data to "DE's financial strategies". One is something they've shared numerous times on different platforms, and the other they haven't shared at all. Even if you're saying they have access to different tools to look at usage rate data in the studio, we still have most of, if not all, of the same data. The only way we wouldn't is if they've intentionally lied to us. And then your senseless provoking questions are just that... senseless.

3 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I personally wouldn't claim to know one way or another with certainty, I am just skeptical of random online people making claims which such certainty.

You can look back to my original post, I purposefully structured it in a way that read like this wasn't guaranteed. But am I confident? Yes. Am I welcome to being proved wrong? Yes. The whole reason I've shared this is to put the idea into peoples' heads, so that it's even slightly more likely a dev will see it and make a formal statement/consideration before Wukong is changed. And if they what they say proves me wrong, then that's good enough for me (not like it would matter if it wasn't).

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

46 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Your analogies don't work.

• The first is what I said, the same data presented differently. None of the questions you asked afterward mean anything, as they don't take away from the fact it's still identical data.
• In the second I don't even see how you'd think you could compare the usage rate data to "DE's financial strategies". One is something they've shared numerous times on different platforms, and the other they haven't shared at all. Even if you're saying they have access to different tools to look at usage rate data in the studio, we still have most of, if not all, of the same data. The only way we wouldn't is if they've intentionally lied to us. And then your senseless provoking questions are just that... senseless.

 

Only depending on your interpretation or what you think the analogy is trying to "prove", since analogies can also just exist to convey understanding. Like for example, if you view everything as combative, you'd probably view someone else's analogy as trying to prove something, rather than convey something. 

So lets try this? Lets test your interpretation of what you think my analogy was trying to demonstrate, and I will tell you if you were accurate or not? Thats a good way to find common ground. 

 

51 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

You can look back to my original post, I purposefully structured it in a way that read like this wasn't guaranteed. But am I confident? Yes. Am I welcome to being proved wrong? Yes. The whole reason I've shared this is to put the idea into peoples' heads, so that it's even slightly more likely a dev will see it and make a formal statement/consideration before Wukong is changed. And if they what they say proves me wrong, then that's good enough for me (not like it would matter if it wasn't).

 

I'm aware of your original post. Sure you can throw in qualifiers like "based on what we know", but several of your statements carry with it, an underserved amount of certainty, that borders on hilarity. Why are you making it so personal around Pablo? How can you claim how simply he views stats? Which, and you may not have intended this, carries a bit of condescension. "Pablo, doesn't understand how this works, he lacks critical thinking skills, you'd think he would, but he didn't". Based on? Your claims and implications (at least some, not all) haven't been supported with evidence. You are just making assumptions and loosely tying it in with side variables, which by themselves may be credible. Like, I personally know that the some of the player stats/usage data that DE sometimes gives us the players is flawed, and distorted from a few bugs and other issues. I too think there is funky stuff going on with the Spectres. DE has acknowledged and informed of us on some of these themselves too.

However... just because some of your claims may be credible. Doesn't mean all your claims are. Again, one of the big ones being that the same information and stats we can access publicly, being the same as the information and data that DE has access to. Also, none of us need to prove you wrong in this respect, because we can just rest on the default or neutrality and not knowing. Which is why I said I don't know. Burden of proof. 

I could probably think of some reasons, but most would just be to support the idea rather than definitive proof. Like Pablo seemed to know that Ivara gets used in Spy a lot. As far as I know, we can't go into our profile and see a break down of where our different Warframe's allocated mission times are. Now do you think, that people like Pablo and Rebecca can't get more accurate break down info on which Frames are used in Spy or different missions more? When Rebecca talked about Wukong being used a lot in like Sortie content, was she just making it up? Maybe she is too simple too?

There is a lot to suggest that DE, or certain DE members have more access to tools which show much more information than we are privy to. Though again, I am not one of those members, so I can't tell for certain. I am just skeptical of the idea that you know, what they are limited to, so your attempt to frame Pablo as not knowing how to interpret such data comes off as bizarre. It also happens to be something a lot of people have a subconscious habit of doing. Making claims they can't prove, challenging others to "prove them wrong", thinking confidence means anything. 

I'm confident I am always right. Does that work? Are you going to reassess what I have said, and think... hmm, well now that I know he is confident, I guess his evidence is more compelling. Here's another tactic. I am going to say that DE is secretly making Warframe's butts larger over time. I am confident in this. If a Dev sees this, I am happy to be proven wrong. With the implication being, that if a Dev doesn't personally address my claims publicly... well then my claims and I must be right? 

I hope I am not coming off as too combative myself, but in my opinion, all you really needed to do, was just bring up spectres giving out distorted and unusual usage stats and then question and clarify whether DE is aware of this, and knows to check and consider that as a variable with other data, to ensure they are getting accurate results. Thats totally respectable. Making claims about what Pablo shouldn't tweet or is wrong for tweeting, making claims about how you somehow know how he read the data, what data he read and how he arrived to his conclusions, and implying he did so simply and uncritically, ehh. 

It comes off more than you really don't want a Wukong nerf and are willing to look for any excuse, even making unfortunate implications about actual people at DE, then framing it as knowledge. Not wanting a Wukong nerf is totally valid. Even the bit about thinking that us players have the same data as DE somehow, I might heavily disagree with that, but sure, its standard for forums. 

 

 

[Tyreaus]

There may be some disconnect between this and the discussions it's a reply to. It seems much too obvious prima facie.

Let's take "balance" as "practical viability" and "power fantasy" as "mowing down hordes of enemies" - to fit Warframe's context.

If all weapons mow down hordes of enemies, to fuel the power fantasy aspect (in both angles), all weapons are practically viable. Tada, we've demonstrated that the two concepts can coincide.

Yet prolonged are discussions around something that can be exemplified in two sentences. It seems unlikely that number of people are that oblivious for that long. Rather, I think phrasing in those discussions may have created a bit of a red herring. Many discussions seem to surround intended experience. In that sense, the "power fantasy" and "balance" terms aren't descriptors of game elements, as is leveraged here, but of design intentions, whether the game ought to feel like a "power fantasy" or like it's "balanced". Those ideas don't mesh quite so well, if at all, and thus we get contention.

---

As for Wukong double-dipping with the specter, at least on the profile, has anybody tested it? You can start a new account, get Wukong and a second frame (without using either until you have both), and alternate something like a low-level Spy mission - something with a generally consistent run-time and XP gain - between Wukong and the other Warframe. If Wukong's spectre does double-dip on usage rate, it should be somewhere around double the usage rate of the other Warframe*. And, thankfully, it shouldn't take too many runs for that to come out in the wash. That test can run with anybody who has yet to play Wukong or Wukong Prime and some other Warframe. I just...don't have friends to help with the clan side of things. And I already finished both of them.

*Or more, depending on if things like kills are included. Thankfully, that ought to be part of the stats page as XP gained, so that can get factored into the comparison. Or counteracted by going ham with the other Warframe during missions and seeing if and how the discrepancy changes.