Dangerous ambition: unnecessary content

[xcrimsonlegendx]

I like the wide variety of "unnecessary content" in this game, all of it. Gives me a lot of varied activities to do. I'd probably have gotten bored of Warframe by now if they didn't keep adding interesting new ways to play the game.

[quxier]

3 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

On 2022-09-11 at 7:19 AM, (PSN)Station2D- said:

Necramech mode: mode similar to frames mode, unnecessary because it does the same as frames mode

except Necramechs are immune to null stuff, so they do serve a very niche purpose, I just wish they hadn't put the orphix inside a railjack mission then people might have actually played/farmed it !!

It's just excuse to put another type of gear. I think OP started this. In the Zariman you have well integrated frame & OP gameplay. Not kind of "bad stuff" with "no frame zone"...

[_Anise_]

7 hours ago, quxier said:

just excuse to put another type of gear

is that a bad thing ? arcanes are an excuse to have a different kind of mod, the vulpa are a different kind of kavat, "archguns" a different kind of gun.

if the response is "but archguns are good in archwing "  maybe mechs just need more use cases which maybe they can add ?

ps:I am almost sure at one point they talked about having them deply on regular missions but they put it on hold due to the wisp boss causing issues with it unless I am remembering wrong ?

 

[quxier]

13 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

7 hours ago, quxier said:

just excuse to put another type of gear

is that a bad thing ? arcanes are an excuse to have a different kind of mod, the vulpa are a different kind of kavat, "archguns" a different kind of gun.

if the response is "but archguns are good in archwing "  maybe mechs just need more use cases which maybe they can add ?

Yes, it's bad thing. It forces us (if you want to play Orphix) to farm and upgrade similar gear just because our old doesn't work. Imagine having same thing but for Orphix level 2 where your Necramechs won't work. You take your Mech v2 to Orphix v2.

Arcanes gives you little "umh" to give you more power or something else. You don't have to use them.

Vulpha is just another companion. It's just like another frame with its features.

Archgun is bit forced in Orbs fight but not as bad as Mechs.

 

[(PSN)King_Kiba_B]

On 2022-09-11 at 1:19 AM, (PSN)Station2D- said:

I dare to say that all this content only affects the maintenance of the game, because in the end it seems that the developers are working for 1 result for the price of 3, I have also see that there are games that have the same impact as WF without needing so much content like Destiny 2 for example , and I'm not trying to make a nonsense toxic comment for attention, but i think that the game could have a better sustainability with less content.
 

Umm having played destiny since the original release I can confidently tell you.. you are wrong. The one thing D1/D2 players always complained about was lack of content.

[George_PPS]

On 2022-09-10 at 10:19 PM, (PSN)Station2D- said:

In this topic I will talk about why I think the game has too much unnecessary content

So, for me the strength of this game is the large amount of content it has, but I think that what gives strength to the game is also what weakens it, like missions or game modes that are no needed for game sustainability

This is a list of what i think is obviously necessary for the game vs what is not necessary (just adding a few things)

Necessary:

Frames mode: main mode of the game

Archwing mode: a mode which allows you to combat in space or aquatic environments, it encourages variety which is great

Operator mode: a mode which for me lacks identity, but has the potential to create more variety

K-drive mode: mode which allows you to race in different environments, it's great because it doesn't include shootings

Unnecessary

Railjack mode: mode similar to archwing mode, unnecessary because archwing mode could do the same job

Necramech mode: mode similar to frames mode, unnecessary because it does the same as frames mode

Operator combat mode: mode similar to frames mode, unnecessary because it collides with frames mode

I know that sounds ungrateful, but I really don't understand why creating content that only clashes with existing content, and it's not that these content that I mention are bad, it's just that you could have obtained the same results with the things that are already in the game

I dare to say that all this content only affects the maintenance of the game, because in the end it seems that the developers are working for 1 result for the price of 3, I have also see that there are games that have the same impact as WF without needing so much content like Destiny 2 for example , and I'm not trying to make a nonsense toxic comment for attention, but i think that the game could have a better sustainability with less content.
 

What gives strength to a game is what weakens it? This makes zero sense. Warframe’s strengths are power creep enjoyment, super fast paced racing like game play. It’s all being destroyed to the ground. No wonder players are fleeing. Go check Steam ranking which is the best and true indicator of how players feel about the quality and the direction of the game updates and development. It’s absolutely going downhill. 

[Drasiel]

1 hour ago, George_PPS said:

What gives strength to a game is what weakens it? This makes zero sense. Warframe’s strengths are power creep enjoyment, super fast paced racing like game play. It’s all being destroyed to the ground. No wonder players are fleeing. Go check Steam ranking which is the best and true indicator of how players feel about the quality and the direction of the game updates and development. It’s absolutely going downhill. 

Steam rankings are only the be all end all if the game is only on steam. Steam rankings don't contain the information from players on Epic Games, Xbox, Playstation, Switch, and the stand alone warframe launcher. That makes it really hard to make such a blanket statement about the game hold any truth.

5 hours ago, quxier said:

Yes, it's bad thing. It forces us (if you want to play Orphix) to farm and upgrade similar gear just because our old doesn't work. Imagine having same thing but for Orphix level 2 where your Necramechs won't work. You take your Mech v2 to Orphix v2.

Arcanes gives you little "umh" to give you more power or something else. You don't have to use them.

Vulpha is just another companion. It's just like another frame with its features.

Archgun is bit forced in Orbs fight but not as bad as Mechs.

 

While necramechs can shoot guns, have 4 abilities, and can be transferenced into that's about all they share with warframes. They provide a different system of mobility, full use of archwing guns without heavy weapon limitations, and they have a variant modding system that does actually require a bit of thought for what you want or need out of them.

I really don't think Necramechs are the only reason people aren't playing orphix missions. There are other underlying issues such as Railjack having harder enemies than equivalent levels of starchart enemies which feels bad and is confusing when you first encounter it, Orphix requiring greater investment than eidolons to complete as you need both a railjack and a Necramech (yes I will acknowledge that necramechs for orphix require more resources and time). Eidolons use fairly easy to attain warframes (you can use a necramech here too and it actually makes it a lot easier even if it's not the dominant meta because of transference speed bleeding time) and simply due to the time they have been out, mods. The biggest issue a lot of people probably don't mention is that they tuned the scaling of orphixes in mission waaaaaay up from what it was during the event. The lower level orphix missions are not too bad but Veil proxima is on a whole different level. The same build that could clear orphix's solo to the spawn cap during the endurance missions of the event struggles to make it to rotation C because of how much faster the orphix level increases and how much faster the orphix's spawn. If you do not play multiplayer and coordinate with a half decent team or have and use mobility enhancements on the necramech itself (some people say you can do it with operator too but I've never been great at it) it's a miserable frustrating mission to play. Then there is the final issue: Time vs Reward. Depending on team composition and pre orphix sub objectives it takes 30 minutes to 1 hour to get to rotation C and get a single arcane. A 3x3 eidolon run which is pretty doable even by a solo player nowadays takes 50 minutes and gets you 9 arcanes. Orphix being available all the time does not make up for this discrepancy in acquisition time because you would have put in potentially 4.5 to 9 hours to get the same yield of arcanes.

I have to disagree with you on the performance enhancement from arcanes. See I can't fight eidolons the dark area combined with constant flashing effects makes me sick. I didn't own any arcanes except a couple singles from Trials before they were moved to eidolons. I didn't get to play with arcanes until I was already a man Scarlet Spear where I farmed 98% of them all full sets. They make a massive difference in survivability, energy economy, health economy, bonus damage, and just have super useful effects for niche builds. Playing without arcanes at higher mission levels frankly sucks when compared to having them.

[quxier]

14 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

They provide a different system of mobility,

Which is worse.

14 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

full use of archwing guns without heavy weapon limitations,

Just another guns

14 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

and they have a variant modding system

Like Necramech VITALITY or... I don't know Necramech STRETCH? Most of them are the same mods.

Quote

that does actually require a bit of thought for what you want or need out of them.

And frames doesn't require that?

19 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

I have to disagree with you on the performance enhancement from arcanes. See I can't fight eidolons the dark area combined with constant flashing effects makes me sick. I didn't own any arcanes except a couple singles from Trials before they were moved to eidolons. I didn't get to play with arcanes until I was already a man Scarlet Spear where I farmed 98% of them all full sets. They make a massive difference in survivability, energy economy, health economy, bonus damage, and just have super useful effects for niche builds. Playing without arcanes at higher mission levels frankly sucks when compared to having them.

That's like any other mods. I'm using e.g. Molt reconstruct (hp regen on ability cast) and 5/6 energize. I could use other methods for healing or energy. It doesn't have to be that arcanes.

[Drasiel]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Which is worse.

Just another guns

Like Necramech VITALITY or... I don't know Necramech STRETCH? Most of them are the same mods.

And frames doesn't require that?

That's like any other mods. I'm using e.g. Molt reconstruct (hp regen on ability cast) and 5/6 energize. I could use other methods for healing or energy. It doesn't have to be that arcanes.

No I don't think it's worse, I used the word different for a reason, I enjoy both movement systems I find the sliding enjoyable and figuring out when to cancel it for sharp turns or grabbing something with a meat hook fun.  You may think it's worse and that's fine but regardless of either of our opinions it is undeniably different.

I don't even know what to say about "just another gun" That applies to literally every firearm of every type in the game. If the individual differences between trigger type, battery speed, reload, and base stats mean nothing to you we can't have a conversation about weapons at all.

I didn't say the mods were different, although they do have different values and do have some unique mods as well, I said the modding system was a variant. Where we have far more slots, far more mod points, and melee mods are part of the Mech build rather than their own independent weapon (for good or ill). That last part makes it interesting to make a build for Bonewidow's ironbride as rather than just slotting more power strength you can add melee mods to your mech to further improve ironbride because it's treated like a melee. It can end up really powerful once you mod both the mech and ironbride itself. Honestly modding a necramech is closer to modding a beast companion than a warframe and even then it's not a perfect fit as we don't have to fit the ability mods into the necramech build.

Not really, most frames don't require a huge amount of thought unless you are talking Steel path builds that are off meta. Slapping on the basic power mods, Vitality/Redirection/Steel Fibre to taste, and then their direct upgrades later on and you are good to go for most of the game. You can certainly put more thought into frames if you want to but you don't need to. Mechs require a bit more thought because they are expected to function at a much higher level as a starting point (open worlds, isolation vaults, railjack) and they have unique mechanics to take into account like engine which acts as stamina for hovering, sliding, and running on top of unique mods for hovering and sliding.

No. Arcanes are generally much more powerful than mods when the arcanes are at max rank. While there are often other sources for some of the benefits from arcanes, mods do not compare in performance. You could argue that Operator abilities or certain unique weapon mechanics are comparable though. Skiajati's ability to turn you invisible on finisher is comparable to trickery for example.

[quxier]

7 hours ago, Drasiel said:

No I don't think it's worse, I used the word different for a reason, I enjoy both movement systems I find the sliding enjoyable and figuring out when to cancel it for sharp turns or grabbing something with a meat hook fun.  You may think it's worse and that's fine but regardless of either of our opinions it is undeniably different.

You can enjoy it. However there are things that are just worse:

- frame doesn't have stamina

- worse control in the air: no bullet jump nor wall jump

- it's too big (and above reasons) - I've been using OP to get Oprhix' thingies

7 hours ago, Drasiel said:

I don't even know what to say about "just another gun" That applies to literally every firearm of every type in the game. If the individual differences between trigger type, battery speed, reload, and base stats mean nothing to you we can't have a conversation about weapons at all.

Yes, that's applies to any "guns". However distinction between normal and archgun (and melee I guess) is very arbitrary. In this place you are using normal guns and in this place you are using arch guns (Orphix). This can be damaged via normal guns but this needs archguns. It's not even distinction between e.g. hard hitting (e.g. Kuva chakharr) vs AoE but may be weaker (Nukor).

8 hours ago, Drasiel said:

I didn't say the mods were different, although they do have different values and do have some unique mods as well, I said the modding system was a variant. Where we have far more slots, far more mod points

As fair I remember we don't have Auras so they had to do something else. They pick forma way for their profit.

8 hours ago, Drasiel said:

and melee mods are part of the Mech build rather than their own independent weapon (for good or ill).

Frames (system) has that as well.

8 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Not really, most frames don't require a huge amount of thought unless you are talking Steel path builds that are off meta. Slapping on the basic power mods, Vitality/Redirection/Steel Fibre to taste, and then their direct upgrades later on and you are good to go for most of the game. You can certainly put more thought into frames if you want to but you don't need to. Mechs require a bit more thought because they are expected to function at a much higher level as a starting point (open worlds, isolation vaults, railjack) and they have unique mechanics to take into account like engine which acts as stamina for hovering, sliding, and running on top of unique mods for hovering and sliding.

Then I'm like genius or something. I slapped regular (but Mech's version) mods and few other mods.

With frames I'm usually use stuffs like Vitality, Adaptation and Rolling guard but other stuffs require more thought. Sure you can slap "survival" kit and be fine but frames are much more than surviving.

8 hours ago, Drasiel said:

No. Arcanes are generally much more powerful than mods when the arcanes are at max rank. While there are often other sources for some of the benefits from arcanes, mods do not compare in performance. You could argue that Operator abilities or certain unique weapon mechanics are comparable though. Skiajati's ability to turn you invisible on finisher is comparable to trickery for example.

It's debatable. Take Protea's Dispensary with guaranteed 2 drops (I've forgotten strength required). That's 50 hp/energy. Add Equilibrum and it doubles it. On other hand have low Energy pool, maybe lower efficiency and maxed Energize. It restores 150 energy per 10 second if you are lucky enough. However you can take much more in ~2 casts.

They useful and may be powerful. However that's not my point. My point is that you can function without them. You cannot function without Mechs in Orphix' field (I'm not sure about frames performance). You have to use Archgun for Orbs. That's kind of difference are Arcances.

[(PSN)Station2D-]

On 2022-09-20 at 12:23 PM, mbf-wr said:

So, which do you propose: closing all restaurants or removing kitchens from homes?

I repeat, in the end you only choose one option

but restaurants compared to a sweet-home-kitchen offer different needs depending on factors that you sometimes cannot control

and how does this compare to Railjack and Archwings?

Railjack and Archwings are concepts of a game that belongs to the same entity, and this implies that the devs can make a single option necessary without the need of a second option.

 

 

On 2022-09-20 at 3:13 PM, Grommile said:

only choose one option for a given meal. Which option I choose (fancy restaurant, cheap restaurant, takeaway, delivery, packaged microwave meal, or cooking from ingredients) depends on a variety of factors, including the state of my bank balance, the state of my mood, whether there's a suitable restaurant open, whether I have company, ...

Yep, is a valid point

but remember that in this case the developers can control the factors of those needs

so having two options that work for the same thing is unnecessary when they can simply rework and make one option necessary.

 

On 2022-09-20 at 1:40 PM, Drasiel said:

That is correct, and as I disagree with that opinion I'm here to provide counterpoint.

I think the problem is that you think that removing railjack is the same as removing the whole concept of space combat, but that is not the case, remember that railjack is just a simple tool for that concept without exception

and I respect that you like railjack, but that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to get the same formula without getting complicated

like for example: mix some features of railjack with archwings to create a single concept

or other examples such as creating a single arcane that can vary characteristics, making unnecessary to create several independent arcanes for the same task

or maybe creating a weapon that can also vary from characteristics or categorys, making unnecessary to create several weapons with the same task.

 

On 2022-09-21 at 3:01 AM, _Anise_ said:

except Necramechs are immune to null stuff,

Sure, but the developers could also have made the frames valid for that same task, so they could have saved time by avoiding the creation of necramechs, because it's not like they offer anything big besides that.

 

On 2022-09-21 at 3:37 AM, xcrimsonlegendx said:

I like the wide variety of "unnecessary content" in this game, all of it. Gives me a lot of varied activities to do. I'd probably have gotten bored of Warframe by now if they didn't keep adding interesting new ways to play the game.

Valid point, BUT there are more efficient ways to make a game rich in variety without having to add so many things, so many things are still unnecessary.

 

On 2022-09-21 at 2:31 PM, (PSN)King_Kiba_B said:

Umm having played destiny since the original release I can confidently tell you.. you are wrong. The one thing D1/D2 players always complained about was lack of content.

That's right, WF has more content than D1/2

but despite that both games have almost the same impact or popularity, although I may be wrong.

 

On 2022-09-21 at 6:54 PM, George_PPS said:

What gives strength to a game is what weakens it? This makes zero sense. Warframe’s strengths are power creep enjoyment, super fast paced racing like game play. It’s all being destroyed to the ground. No wonder players are fleeing. Go check Steam ranking which is the best and true indicator of how players feel about the quality and the direction of the game updates and development. It’s absolutely going downhill. 

Well, I don't think the changes made in the update are perfect, but I don't think they're a nuclear catastrophe either.

the real big problem i see is that the game has too much content to handle, making it difficult to update thanks to the amount of work you have to put there

also powercreep is just secondary, like a playstyle.

 

[mbf-wr]

7 hours ago, (PSN)Station2D- said:

I repeat, in the end you only choose one option

but restaurants compared to a sweet-home-kitchen offer different needs depending on factors that you sometimes cannot control

and how does this compare to Railjack and Archwings?

Railjack and Archwings are concepts of a game that belongs to the same entity, and this implies that the devs can make a single option necessary without the need of a second option.

 

 

Yes, of course when you can only do one thing at a time, you must choose one for that specific time.  That doesn't mean that all other options should not exist.

The primary factor between whether I cook at home or go to a restaurant is which I prefer to do that day.  Whether that is a factor under my control is a much deeper philosophical debate than this one.

Re: Railjack and Archwing: granted I can only do one at a time (given that I don't personally embody eternalism), but sometimes I prefer blowing up other spaceships while dealing with boarding parties and putting out fires and sometimes I prefer strapping on a pair of wings and going archwing mode.  They are different things with a different feel.

Saying they are both "space combat" is simply applying a somewhat arbitrary category to them.  I disagree with conflating them and also with conflating necramechs and warframes.

"X and Y are the same therefore one is necessary and one is unnecessary" is a premise I reject.

[Grommile]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Station2D- said:

I think the problem is that you think that removing railjack is the same as removing the whole concept of space combat, but that is not the case, remember that railjack is just a simple tool for that concept without exception

To me, railjack and archwing missions provide significantly different sub-concepts within the broader concept of "space combat".

They are not the same concept, they are not the same experience, I find the game to be enriched by having both rather than just one (even if I'm not a huge fan of Archwing missions), and your attempt to paint them as the same concept just makes me suspect that you don't actually like either of them.

[Proscriptor]

I support merging Archwing and RJ by inserting Archwing objectives and Archwing enemies into RJ missions in some sensible manner -- such as by adding Archwing "interiors" with modified/new tilesets, in addition to existing Atmosphere interiors; alternatively, seamless small archwing levels (relatively short trench runs) could be contained within the space level, with awing enemies only spawning within that confined area. 

[Drasiel]

13 hours ago, (PSN)Station2D- said:

I think the problem is that you think that removing railjack is the same as removing the whole concept of space combat, but that is not the case, remember that railjack is just a simple tool for that concept without exception

and I respect that you like railjack, but that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to get the same formula without getting complicated

like for example: mix some features of railjack with archwings to create a single concept

or other examples such as creating a single arcane that can vary characteristics, making unnecessary to create several independent arcanes for the same task

or maybe creating a weapon that can also vary from characteristics or categorys, making unnecessary to create several weapons with the same task.

I can see that you don't want to remove the idea of space combat from the game, you want to remove railjack from the game. I like railjack as it currently is, I do not want it removed. Unifying Railjack and Archwing would be fine, due to how both game modes were made though archwing would have to be the one to be put in railjack It simply will not work going the other direction with how they described the coding and gameplay size being set up for archwing. Having connected archwing objectives would be great for railjack more fighter action while the raijack acts as a carrier.

Arcanes and Weapons are never going to be streamlined to that extent, this is a looter shooter, those are the loots we are here for. If you streamline down to like 10 completely unique arcanes and weapons there's not going to be much game to play.

15 hours ago, quxier said:

You can enjoy it. However there are things that are just worse:

- frame doesn't have stamina

- worse control in the air: no bullet jump nor wall jump

- it's too big (and above reasons) - I've been using OP to get Oprhix' thingies

Yes, that's applies to any "guns". However distinction between normal and archgun (and melee I guess) is very arbitrary. In this place you are using normal guns and in this place you are using arch guns (Orphix). This can be damaged via normal guns but this needs archguns. It's not even distinction between e.g. hard hitting (e.g. Kuva chakharr) vs AoE but may be weaker (Nukor).

As fair I remember we don't have Auras so they had to do something else. They pick forma way for their profit.

Frames (system) has that as well.

Then I'm like genius or something. I slapped regular (but Mech's version) mods and few other mods.

With frames I'm usually use stuffs like Vitality, Adaptation and Rolling guard but other stuffs require more thought. Sure you can slap "survival" kit and be fine but frames are much more than surviving.

It's debatable. Take Protea's Dispensary with guaranteed 2 drops (I've forgotten strength required). That's 50 hp/energy. Add Equilibrum and it doubles it. On other hand have low Energy pool, maybe lower efficiency and maxed Energize. It restores 150 energy per 10 second if you are lucky enough. However you can take much more in ~2 casts.

They useful and may be powerful. However that's not my point. My point is that you can function without them. You cannot function without Mechs in Orphix' field (I'm not sure about frames performance). You have to use Archgun for Orbs. That's kind of difference are Arcances.

Those are opinions, it only controls "worse" if you expect the same movement system that you have with a warframe. I enjoy the change so don't consider those negatives. I will agree that on the ground missions were not designed with necramech's size in mind and because DE decided to reuse ground missions tilesets in corpus railjack instead of making another tileset better suited to larger models it can be annoying. Old tilesets not being suited to newer content is an ongoing issue though. Older tilesets during ground missions where they are built around the original pre bullet jumping movement systems feel restrictive in a similar way (goddamn elevators).

So out of curiosity would you prefer to be able to use any weapon with necramechs or for Archguns to always be stronger than normal weapons? It's mostly the mods for archguns lagging behind the damage standards of normal mods and the new gun arcanes so that should be a fairly straight forward fix.

Which Frames can equip melee mods on their warframe? I am not aware of any unless you are talking about exalted weapon augment mods which are augments they don't affect your normal melee weapon.

I'm not disagreeing you can do more complicated mod setups with warframe modding if you make the choice to do so. It's just easier to mod a warframe and have it perform well than a necramech which is used in situations with harder enemies and higher levels from the get go.

You are not comparing a mod to an arcane there, you are comparing a warframe ability in one case then a warframe ability being used in conjunction with a mod in the second case. Which speaks far more to my point that a mod on it's own is not comparable to an arcane.

Eh, you can function yes but it's not nearly as enjoyable unless you are into a more masochistic or higher risk and more skill dependent type of gameplay.

I don't think I ever disagreed about Necramechs being required for Orphix, I just said necramechs being required is not the only reason people don't play orphix. I also didn't say Arcanes were mandatory, I said they granted more power than you are saying they do and made a huge difference in enjoying higher level content for me.

[selig_fay]

I think the whole point of this thread is that warframe modes are useless. And I agree with that. We need to remove warframes and operator and keep developing necromech) 

[quxier]

6 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Those are opinions, it only controls "worse" if you expect the same movement system that you have with a warframe.

But is it wrong to expect something as good as frame's movement system?

6 hours ago, Drasiel said:

I enjoy the change so don't consider those negatives.

I enjoy many things but I know they are worse than some other stuffs. Examples:

- dsarming with GoL is much less efficient than just killing with GoL (and maybe with Gaze or other stuffs).

- rolling with Grendel's ball when I can eat/vomit, shoot etc

6 hours ago, Drasiel said:

So out of curiosity would you prefer to be able to use any weapon with necramechs or for Archguns to always be stronger than normal weapons? It's mostly the mods for archguns lagging behind the damage standards of normal mods and the new gun arcanes so that should be a fairly straight forward fix.

I would like to use any weapons.

6 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Which Frames can equip melee mods on their warframe? I am not aware of any unless you are talking about exalted weapon augment mods which are augments they don't affect your normal melee weapon.

I wouldn't call them "melee mods" in most cases. It just they affect melee.

Quote

Gladiator set - increases crit chance with each mod in set by 10%
Strain set - similar to above but based on growing cysts
Aero set - damaging (melee as well) put enemies to sleep
Jugulus set - manifest tendrils on slams
Saxum set - lifted enemies explode on death
Amar set - teleport to enemies
Nira set - slam damage

Not all mods are great. Some needs specific setup.

6 hours ago, Drasiel said:

I'm not disagreeing you can do more complicated mod setups with warframe modding if you make the choice to do so. It's just easier to mod a warframe and have it perform well than a necramech which is used in situations with harder enemies and higher levels from the get go.

I don't find any bigger difference in moding. If you are taking higher content (Archons) are melted as well while they are fine in the Zariman.

6 hours ago, Drasiel said:

You are not comparing a mod to an arcane there, you are comparing a warframe ability in one case then a warframe ability being used in conjunction with a mod in the second case. Which speaks far more to my point that a mod on it's own is not comparable to an arcane.

Mods or arcanes doesn't work without other system in mind. Just saying +150 energy or 25% crit chance tells you NOTHING. 150 energy might be on cooldowns. 25% crit chance can be from base crit chance so you are getting ONLY 5% crit chance for 20% crit chance weapon. So on and so forth.

6 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Eh, you can function yes but it's not nearly as enjoyable unless you are into a more masochistic or higher risk and more skill dependent type of gameplay.

Yes, they make stuffs better. I'm not denying it. Altough it's not masochistic way.

 

[Drasiel]

6 hours ago, quxier said:

But is it wrong to expect something as good as frame's movement system?

I enjoy many things but I know they are worse than some other stuffs. Examples:

- dsarming with GoL is much less efficient than just killing with GoL (and maybe with Gaze or other stuffs).

- rolling with Grendel's ball when I can eat/vomit, shoot etc

I would like to use any weapons.

I wouldn't call them "melee mods" in most cases. It just they affect melee.

Not all mods are great. Some needs specific setup.

I don't find any bigger difference in moding. If you are taking higher content (Archons) are melted as well while they are fine in the Zariman.

Mods or arcanes doesn't work without other system in mind. Just saying +150 energy or 25% crit chance tells you NOTHING. 150 energy might be on cooldowns. 25% crit chance can be from base crit chance so you are getting ONLY 5% crit chance for 20% crit chance weapon. So on and so forth.

Yes, they make stuffs better. I'm not denying it. Altough it's not masochistic way.

 

I don't think it's wrong to want that but I do think calling the necramech's movement system bad is opinion because it's ignoring the background information and theming that clarifies why they move the way they do. In a direct comparison warframe mobility will always be better for fluidity and freedom, that's it's whole design scheme and end goal since parkour 2.0. Necramech's movement matches their own lore and theming though, they are an older clunkier system with more limitations than the warframes that quickly replaced them because warframes were faster, more adaptive, and smaller. Now you could still do QOL changes to improve necramech mobility to be more comfortable to use and retain the limitations that match their lore/theme: Remove engine consumption for running and leave it as a mechanic for hovering and sliding only, this would massively free up engine and allow more sliding and hovering while making moving around maps normally more comfortable. Make the jump Adaptive, hold the jump button longer to jump higher giving us finer control in missions with necramech hydraulics increasing max possible jump height. Also just decreasing necramech size by like 10% would make them fit a lot better on the tiles we have now.

Worse and better often depend on the end goal, sure if the only goal is killing a disarm is going to be useless most of the time but if the goal is disarming or providing fire relief without killing, killing would be a detriment. Warframe just doesn't give us many situations where killing is not the end goal or best choice.

Oh set mods, okay yeah that makes a lot more sense. I don't consider them in the same scope of mods explicitly for enhancing melee, but they could definitely be argued both ways. Not the same as equipping pressure point, fury, etc on your warframe but definitely close if you squint. 

I wasn't really counting archons nor the steel path as most warframe content, those are specifically geared towards high level play and do demand better or more specialized modding than just the basics. Railjack and open worlds have differently scaled and harder enemies than the equivalent on the starchart (which is annoying because it means the levels on those enemies lie to you about their effective strength) which leads to needing to mod necramechs better earlier on because those are the only places they can be used. If you don't find a difference between them that's fine we're just going to disagree on that I guess :)

Arcanes do work without needing to take mods into account, you still need to understand the mechanic of the arcane and they can certainly be enhanced by equipping complimentary mods but Arcanes like Aegis, Agility, Awakening, Barrier, Consequence, Energize, Eruption, Fury, Grace, Guardian, or the element/physical resistance ones work perfectly fine on their own. Arcanes with cooldowns now have them listed in their descriptions so knowing about them isn't an issue anymore. Knowing where a mod, arcane, or even ability sits in the damage equation stack is a problem for the whole game not just Arcanes. I would really like that to be a lot more clear in general.

I found it masochistic because I consider making your play experience intentionally worse to be masochistic lol.

[quxier]

7 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

I don't think it's wrong to want that but I do think calling the necramech's movement system bad is opinion because it's ignoring the background information and theming that clarifies why they move the way they do

What lore/theme has to do with being bad or good? I'm saying about gamplay system being bad not its lore/theme being bad. Its lore is ok. It's not opinion because I've not included theme/lore. Opinion is like saying "I think" or "I like X better than Y". I wrote facts. That's not opinions. Of course I could be wrong. Feel free to correct me.

15 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

Worse and better often depend on the end goal, sure if the only goal is killing a disarm is going to be useless most of the time but if the goal is disarming or providing fire relief without killing, killing would be a detriment. Warframe just doesn't give us many situations where killing is not the end goal or best choice.

Yes, in this game the best CC is death. So while in other games it may stand correct in WF it's just worse (in most cases).

20 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

I found it masochistic because I consider making your play experience intentionally worse to be masochistic lol.

Not intentionally. Players might not have given arcane. For example arcane energize costs 1,6k... which is ridiculous price.

[MaxTunnerX]

@(PSN)Station2D-I think what ur against is content islands. Aka making content just for the sake of making content, without any connection inbetween. And I agree with you. However, keep in mind that once (if) all this content gets connected, and you can fly with RJ manually to Earth and eject in archwing and land in a mission etc. the game will be very great. Also keep in mind that if the game was only about warframes, there would be even more power creep than there already is. DE dont seem able to adress the power creep directly so they divert our attention to something completely different so we start fresh (and ofc grind/suffer a lot). Last thing, for some reason the WF community is very hungry and full of ultra bored veterans that refuse to play anything else but Warframe and complain every time there isnt new content the next day or week. I personally have not caught up with all the games content, even though I play quite regularly. Some content I ignore, but even so there is so much of it for me. Thats not the case for the ultra bored veterans tho. Some of them grind kitguns only to name them a certain word, so that their collection inthe end says something funny, like a wall of text. So yeah, there is some "unneccessary" content in the game, but that doesnt mean its automatically bad and also people will smash your head in for trying to have quality over quantity, even though many other multiplayer games have much less content and still very good player bases and sale figures.

[Drasiel]

7 hours ago, quxier said:

What lore/theme has to do with being bad or good? I'm saying about gamplay system being bad not its lore/theme being bad. Its lore is ok. It's not opinion because I've not included theme/lore. Opinion is like saying "I think" or "I like X better than Y". I wrote facts. That's not opinions. Of course I could be wrong. Feel free to correct me.

Yes, in this game the best CC is death. So while in other games it may stand correct in WF it's just worse (in most cases).

Not intentionally. Players might not have given arcane. For example arcane energize costs 1,6k... which is ridiculous price.

The Lore/theme gives a reason why Necramech mobility is so restricted compared to warframe mobility. With the lore taken into consideration necramech movement cannot be as fluid and fast as warframes. The movement is, as you say, "bad" when compared to warframes because it's supposed to be. For me it's not "Bad" but different than warframe mobility. You can get through levels quickly with a necramech if you want to, you can jump as high as a bullet jump with modding. Sure necramech mobility could use polish like I suggested in the last post but it's completely usable for navigating the levels. For it to be bad for me it would have to fail at navigating the levels far more severely.

The trials were a good place for CC, it was one of the rare cases where you didn't want to kill the CC'd enemies because then fresh ones would spawn and kill you while the CC casting player got annoyed at having to recast their ability too soon.

The best part of scarlet spear was the massive punch in the junk it gave to arcane costs for a time. Sadly orphix's didn't impact the market at all due to being so inferior to farming eidolons.

[quxier]

18 hours ago, Drasiel said:

The Lore/theme gives a reason why Necramech mobility is so restricted compared to warframe mobility. With the lore taken into consideration necramech movement cannot be as fluid and fast as warframes. The movement is, as you say, "bad" when compared to warframes because it's supposed to be.

Sure, lore/theme explain why Necramechs' mobility is restricted but I can still say it's bad. Lore is not excuse to make bad content. I could write something like "Crawler getting free from Infested hive mind via <insert method here>. Now you are controlling Crawler. I can slowly "crawl" and vomit on enemies". That would make complete sense lore wise but gameplay would probably be bad.

19 hours ago, Drasiel said:

For me it's not "Bad" but different than warframe mobility. You can get through levels quickly with a necramech if you want to, you can jump as high as a bullet jump with modding. Sure necramech mobility could use polish like I suggested in the last post but it's completely usable for navigating the levels. For it to be bad for me it would have to fail at navigating the levels far more severely.

Have you tried using Necramechs in other places than straight corridors and simple curves? I've used rent-a-mech a lot in the first map of Orphix event. While it can do a lot in easier places it is bad in more complex. I had to use Operator to destroy "Orphix thingies".

19 hours ago, Drasiel said:

The trials were a good place for CC, it was one of the rare cases where you didn't want to kill the CC'd enemies because then fresh ones would spawn and kill you while the CC casting player got annoyed at having to recast their ability too soon.

Interesting. I haven't played it so I don't have opinion.

19 hours ago, Drasiel said:

The best part of scarlet spear was the massive punch in the junk it gave to arcane costs for a time. Sadly orphix's didn't impact the market at all due to being so inferior to farming eidolons.

Wait, do you mean Orphix mission (used with RJ) OR  Orphix event? Orphix missions are not good. However the Event were very easy. I've been using Rent-a-mech and I've farmed a lot things (Simulacrum, weapons, frame, up to 5/6 Energize, but I had some).

[Drasiel]

43 minutes ago, quxier said:

Sure, lore/theme explain why Necramechs' mobility is restricted but I can still say it's bad. Lore is not excuse to make bad content. I could write something like "Crawler getting free from Infested hive mind via <insert method here>. Now you are controlling Crawler. I can slowly "crawl" and vomit on enemies". That would make complete sense lore wise but gameplay would probably be bad.

Have you tried using Necramechs in other places than straight corridors and simple curves? I've used rent-a-mech a lot in the first map of Orphix event. While it can do a lot in easier places it is bad in more complex. I had to use Operator to destroy "Orphix thingies".

Interesting. I haven't played it so I don't have opinion.

Wait, do you mean Orphix mission (used with RJ) OR  Orphix event? Orphix missions are not good. However the Event were very easy. I've been using Rent-a-mech and I've farmed a lot things (Simulacrum, weapons, frame, up to 5/6 Energize, but I had some).

I used my necramech extensively in the Grineer Galleon, Jupiter, and Corpus ship tilesets during the event. I still use my necramech in the corpus ship tileset when I play there. I primarily remained in the necramech using slide and necramech hydraulics to navigate and bonewidow's shield and health regen on meathook to keep the necramech alive for nearly the entire duration of the mission (when the orphix would stop spawning). The placement of the resonators (thingies) were definitely not in very many easy to reach places with only a necramech, they often would spawn in somewhat hidden areas or locations a little bit too small to get a necramech into. I think the intended gameplay here is to use your operator to kill the resonators but because the resonators scale in health and the amps don't keep up with it that doesn't end up working great. I used a fluctus to clear the resonators (infinite punch through, but sucks vs orphix because the wave doesn't line up with the eye so barely does damage). Do note that while I don't think the movement is bad, I do think there is still a number of things that could be done to improve it.

I mean orphix the mission used with Railjack. As the Orphix mission requires more gear, more time, is much harder to complete than eidolons, and rewards fewer arcanes for time invested (despite being able to play it whenever you want) it has not impacted the cost of arcanes despite being another location to farm them.