Revenant's MESMER SKIN is a bit unbalanced - BALANCE SUGGESTION

[nslay]

40 minutes ago, DeadVoid118 said:

I'll not partake in bad-faith arguments.

OK, I'll concede at this: Independent of your Revenant experience and motivation to participate in this thread, your point-of-view is still valid and valuable. I'm sorry I apparently constructed a straw man targeting your experience and motivation. If you truly appreciate this frame, there should be no question like, "what he's good for?"

[nslay]

On 2022-09-16 at 12:30 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Ok....can Revenant do a steel path defense to round 30 solo?

I just tried it on SP Hydron. He can, but it's not very fun or efficient... and it does get sketchy. But if you Enthrall the Life Leech Eximus, they seem to heal up the Defense target. This is a similar trick to Grendel Defense when Enthralling Shield Ospreys.

IMO, you wouldn't bring Revenant to solo endurance Defense. But he can at least do 30 rounds.

[DeadVoid118]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

OK, I'll concede at this: Independent of your Revenant experience and motivation to participate in this thread, your point-of-view is still valid and valuable. I'm sorry I apparently constructed a straw man targeting your experience and motivation. If you truly appreciate this frame, there should be no question like, "what he's good for?"

My point was that, meta-wise and irrespective of fun factor (I think every frame should ideally have some meta-relevant purpose and there are people who have fun by being meta), he's good for surviving. That's largely his identity, and was so for years before Overguard. Overguard removed that, and DE has simply added that back in the form of giving each stack a short invincibility.

"What's he good for?" is to ask the point of him existing, as one can ask of any frame. He offers varied gameplay from other frames, which is good. He also survives very well, which is good. The thing he achieves over other frames is surviving, there are other frames that can do very similar things. Rhino tanks, CCs, and can do tons of damage. The same is true for Nezha. Revenant tanks, CCs, but unlike Rhino and Nezha has abilities that mainly want to deal damage rather than buff damage. A lot of damage dealing abilities have a wide variety of issues, some to do with scaling and some to do with QoL or usability. Revenant is no different, with his 4 not scaling great and Reave requiring thrall setup prior which isn't a huge barrier but is not the same as pressing two buttons, one to buff and one to shoot.

I don't think it healthy for the game if every frame is the same thing with minor tweaks. We have 50 frames now, there are of course going to be a number with significant similarities or overlapping purposes. Revenant's uniqueness, to me, comes from two things. His ability to tank better than anyone at any level, and his ability to setup an ability-based kill at any level. The latter isn't unique on its own and other frames do it better, but is unique because it's on a tank frame. Thus, Revenant's uniqueness is entirely because he's really good at not dying. I think that's good.

[nslay]

9 minutes ago, DeadVoid118 said:

Revenant is no different, with his 4 not scaling great and Reave requiring thrall setup prior which isn't a huge barrier but is not the same as pressing two buttons, one to buff and one to shoot.

If you press 1 button on an enemy like Moa, you very quickly get 7 Thralls since the effect spreads in a viral fashion. You can then rely on something like Thrall Pact to buff your damage or use Reave. Ever since the scaling nerf, Reave has lost a lot of its utility. You can easily one-shot 9999 Corrupted Heavy Gunners with a weapon now... there's a thread called "Glaives Balanced by Bugs" showing a Saryn Prime one-shotting these kinds of enemies.

I don't approve of this, but you can abuse Reave by using Roar and Viral and just bypass using Enthrall entirely.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 14 heures, nslay a dit :

Well, for more standard units... you had this problem with the new Corpus Ship Nullifiers who have automatic weapons of some sort (or high fire rate semi-auto!). A Corpus Tech inside the nullifier bubble could do the same. These existed before the Eximus change too.

You are almost changing my mind about the necessity of some changes for Mesmer Skin due to the Eximus Rework.

I think you're right. Before the Veilbreaker changes (even before SP), Revenant could lose stacks very fast on missions, depending on enemy density, enemy fire rate, nullifier... I've experienced that many times with Revenant before.

But at the same time, I think it needed to be changed, or Mesmer Skin would become useless. I jist think that the "fix" they've made was a bit too much.

Il y a 15 heures, nslay a dit :

He doesn't have to be prepare much for killing... because with a meager 250% ability strength, he can one-shot enemies! Heck you don't even need the 250%. Jeez, he can do 24 hour Kuva Survival for Void's sake (pre-scaling changes). What more could you possibly want from a frame?

This is so true. I don't know why people ignore this. Revenant can easily survive and one-hit kill a bunch of enemies (even cap level). He is not only a tank, he is also a DPS and he can even give the squad some protection.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 11 heures, nslay a dit :

I just tried it on SP Hydron. He can, but it's not very fun or efficient... and it does get sketchy. But if you Enthrall the Life Leech Eximus, they seem to heal up the Defense target. This is a similar trick to Grendel Defense when Enthralling Shield Ospreys.

IMO, you wouldn't bring Revenant to solo endurance Defense. But he can at least do 30 rounds.

Thanks a lot ! 👍

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

I'm going to try and narrow the focus here because we're getting a little spaghetti in our responses.

That's true. Sorry.

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

The developers have openly stated you're not meant to spend 8 hours in a single mission. I would agree with them, that would be insane.

There is a very big difference between 'can' and 'should'. You can stay forever in a mission. Most people shouldn't.

I never saw that. Can you give some reference ?

There is a big difference between can and should, of couse, but if the Develeppers let you do that, so you can, and if you want and like it, so you should.

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

I disagree, and so do the developers.

Can you give some reference ? Because the developpers created many formulas (damage - taken and caused, accuracy, damage reduction...) that go up to level 9999... Why would they bother with that if the game is supposed not to have any balance even on those levels ? Since 2020 they've changed enemy HP scaling to make level 9999 mobs balanced with warframes and weapons. This not something they would do if they disagree that the game is balanced as a whole.

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

They've even previously stated Steel Path is excluded from balancing (which I don't agree with and think they may have walked back on at a later point). Just because a game lets you do things doesn't mean you should, and doesn't mean the developers balanced for it.

Where they've stated this ? I'm very surprised as they've buffed player damage and nerfed enemy scaling levels (which is also applied to Steel Path).

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

If the game was intended for level cap,

The game is not intended for level cap, and neither for level 10, 30 or whatever else. The game is balanced as a whole, from level 0 to 9999. The game formulas and scaling mechanics (you mentionned the aiming scaling) are a proof of that. And Aiming was corrected very soon and it works differently for each specific kind of weapon. And I don't agree that it was binded to wrok well on a spectific part of the game : it was designed to be adaptative to the players ability.

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

Revenant is not the only frame who can reach level cap and is only a decent choice for it.

I agree. This is not the problem. The game remains balanced as a whole, from 0 to 9999.

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

I disagree. Again, surviving is not a big deal. You won't win the game on surviving alone on any content that matters.

I've already shown that Revenant can one-hit kill a bunch of mobs much easier than any other frame. High survivability, high DPS, nice CC, status shower, protection for the squad, HP and shields regen. Revenant has almost everything for him. He exceeed in almost all areas.

 

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

Revenant's only form of scaling damage is Reave, and he will have to cast it a dozen times to kill CC-immune mobs to get rid of Overguard which is just not energy efficient.

Not at all. I've shown that : you will remove Overguard with your weapons, protected by Mesmer Skin and then kill the mob with Enthrall+Reave. That simple. I've done it dozens of times.

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

Let's not talk about Thrall damage, it's so insignificant it doesn't even begin to kill things on base Star Chart (because of how enemy damage vs enemy health is, enemies do drastically less damage and have drastically more health than Warframes).

Thralls are mostly for CC. Nyx has the same problem with Mind Control and Chaos, but at least she can remove all defenses.

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

Again, it's a trade-off. Revenant easily survives, Octavia easily thrives with a very minimal chance of dying (which shield-gating will prevent anyway).

Just one word : Toxin.

Perhaps some other words : stagger immunity : if on the floor, there is no shield gate to save you. That's why Octavia needs a specific build to survive. Revenant (even unmodded) will have stagger immunity, damage immunity, protection from Toxin death. This is much better than Octavia's invisibility.

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

Octavia's mallet can kill anything in one cast

Nope. It needs to be charged. And, as you've said, it wont be in one-hit.

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

but Revenant isn't one-hitting anything CC-immune.

Octavia neither.

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

Also, if you've actually played to level cap, enemies are not as tanky as you would believe. You can very easily still kill them with guns at that point, excluding Overguarded enemies, the same as Revenant.

Enemy armor on level cap is not a problem, armor values can go up but it will not make a great difference in terms of DR. And, much more important : you just need to remove armor. But even a well builded weapon will need some stack bonus from Mods and Arcanes to be effective. Even melee needs to rely on max combo counter to be effective. The problem on cap level is not enemy's armor or HP, its the damage they can do. But to one-hit kill a cap level mob is something you can do much easier with Revenant than with any other frame or weapons.

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

Bottom line, I'm just not going to agree with you at this rate. It honestly sounds like you haven't even played to level cap, which I would expect since people aren't supposed to and it's not very enjoyable for most people.

I've done it four times with a squad and I got asleep many times. It's so boring. Always doing the same thing. I don't like level cap, but I understand people who like it. To be honest, on long runs, all the fun I have come from the discussions with the squad members and not from the game itself.

I know that cap level is easier to reach since the Zariamn was released, but 2 hours is still too much to me. I can barely stay awake after 1 hour of game.

 

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

It's my turn to have some doubts about you playing Revenant before the changes.

I've experienced that many times : if there are many mobs around you, your stacks will melt the same way they used to melt when attacked by an Eximus.

I agree with you.

I misunderstood your post, sorry.

But Shield gating never was a sanctioned mechanic. It was introduced intentionnally. The community asked for it for years.

And the Dragon key s not an exploit at all. Even Rebecca made a joke on Twitter about it. The Dragon key method is well known by the Devs and they let players use it.

😂😂🤣😂 On the contrary ! It's you that just proved not having played with him before the changes.

OK. let's go : shiled gate is working as intended, Dragon key is working as intended... so, how can you say that using two intended mechanics is an exploit ?!?! An exploit is something that is intended NOT to happen : or, both mechanics are working as intended. That's why shield gating + Dragon key isn't an exploit, that's why NOBODY was sanctioned for using it.

It would be very surprisingly to have an exploit much weaker than a current mechanic.

Do you know that many warframe creators consider Inaros a bad frame because he can endure high level missions ??? If you want to talk about ignoring damage, at least pick some real tanky frame. Even Banshee can ignore damage on a level 1 mission... Please...

EHP is just childs-talk. It doens't matter at all. Armor is useless in high level missions.

It's extremely hard to survive in high level missions. Most of the time shield gating is the only option and Mesmer Skin with an unmodded Revenant is much stronger than this.

Very easy : it's the most OP survival ability in the game and it costs almost nothing.

Where exactly have you experienced mesmer skin issues due to density pre-SP? I can only name 1 single place where there was ever an issue with mesmer skin, and that was in Orb Vallis. No other place produced enough enemies to ever give you a real risk of running out of Mesmer charges, because if you played solo the spawns were few and if you played in group the attention of enemies was spread among 4 players. So were exactly did you have problems? Like I said, I practically mained him from release up until SP released, which was close to 2 years straight, barely playing any other frames. And never once did I have problems outside of when a jackal popped up in Vallis.

If the dragon key interaction is intentional, fine, no exploit, use it as much as you like. Even less reason to ask for a mesmer nerf.

If you have trouble surviving with eHP frames I wonder how long in endless you run. I run 2h SP with both Garuda and Lavos with no issues, this also includes the new fissures with even higher density due to fissure spawns. Personally I dont think 2h into endless should be something to balance around, since not that many will run for even close to that long. Plus, who cares about an unmodded frame? That isnt where the ceiling is at for frame survival, certainly not when you reach the highest content.

And as a sidenote. I've read a few other of your replies here. It seems you dont fully grasp what people refer to when saying density. Because you seem to think old specific mobs = density problems, when in reality it's two widely different things. Pre-SP Rev had issues with a few specific mobs, after SP all endless SP missions resulted in actual density problems i.e too many mobs, not enough space to avoid incoming shots, more landed shots and so on. 

4 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Perhaps some other words : stagger immunity : if on the floor, there is no shield gate to save you. That's why Octavia needs a specific build to survive. Revenant (even unmodded) will have stagger immunity, damage immunity, protection from Toxin death. This is much better than Octavia's invisibility.

Nope. It needs to be charged. And, as you've said, it wont be in one-hit.

At this point it just sounds like you dont really have too much sense about frames in general. Octavia needs very little, she's a frame where you shouldnt really run around. There is practically no way for her to get aggroed until she is in a spot of her choice ready to kill. Dip-dip-potato-chip until you are stealthed, go find a good camp, place mallet and profit. At that point nothing should really get by your mallet. Obviously you should also position yourself so stray shots wont hit you, but that is uhm a dead given approach that shouldnt have to be mentioned.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 19 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

Where exactly have you experienced mesmer skin issues due to density pre-SP? I can only name 1 single place where there was ever an issue with mesmer skin, and that was in Orb Vallis.

I've got that problem on Corpus missions, all disruptions, Cetus bounties, some survivals.

il y a 20 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

No other place produced enough enemies to ever give you a real risk of running out of Mesmer charges, because if you played solo the spawns were few and if you played in group the attention of enemies was spread among 4 players. So were exactly did you have problems? Like I said, I practically mained him from release up until SP released, which was close to 2 years straight, barely playing any other frames. And never once did I have problems outside of when a jackal popped up in Vallis.

That's not my experience, and that's not @nslay experience neither. We both had that problem on Corpus and Cetus bounties (and me on Disruptions and some survivals no matter the faction).

il y a 22 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

If the dragon key interaction is intentional, fine, no exploit, use it as much as you like. Even less reason to ask for a mesmer nerf.

I never use it.

But it's just the contrary : Mesmer Skin is way more OP than Shield gating and with almost no player's investment and skills copared to shield gating. And a balance is not necessarily a nerf.

il y a 24 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

If you have trouble surviving with eHP frames I wonder how long in endless you run.

If you think you can survive on very high level mission based on EHP, I'm pretty sure you never did long runs. Only some mechanics and abilities can let you survive on high level missions : shiled gating, Mesmer Skin, Invisibility, Hysteria. Just look at how many players are asking for some changes to be able to get to cap level with Inaros without spamming the Vazarin invulnerability. I never could go further than level 500 with Inaros.

il y a 28 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

I run 2h SP with both Garuda and Lavos with no issues, this also includes the new fissures with even higher density due to fissure spawns.

Garuda ??? Seriously !!! The immortal Garuda !!! Just two hours. She can do much more.

Lavos ??? Easily can go up to to level 500 and then shield gate to survive.

What does this has to do with our discussion by the way ?

il y a 31 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

Plus, who cares about an unmodded frame?

If that unmodded frame has much more survivability than any well modded frame in the game, so I care about it.

il y a 32 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

And as a sidenote. I've read a few other of your replies here. It seems you dont fully grasp what people refer to when saying density. Because you seem to think old specific mobs = density problems, when in reality it's two widely different things. Pre-SP Rev had issues with a few specific mobs, after SP all endless SP missions resulted in actual density problems i.e too many mobs, not enough space to avoid incoming shots, more landed shots and so on. 

Steel Path changed nothing to the game density mechanics : it just puts you at a 4 squad level no matters how many players are with you.

Specific mobs are present more often if the density is greater. This can happen on long survival runs and on disruptions very easily.

Density has ever been a problem for Revenant : the more mobs you have, the more stacks you lose. High density of low level is not a problem, but even standard density of high level (with high accuracy) is a problem. Just 12 mobs and you will lose almost all your stacks very fast.

il y a 37 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

At this point it just sounds like you dont really have too much sense about frames in general.

I'll tell them, but my frames will be really surprised.

il y a 39 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

There is practically no way for her to get aggroed until she is in a spot of her choice ready to kill. Dip-dip-potato-chip until you are stealthed, go find a good camp, place mallet and profit. At that point nothing should really get by your mallet. Obviously you should also position yourself so stray shots wont hit you, but that is uhm a dead given approach that shouldnt have to be mentioned.

And even like that she has much less survivivability than Revenant.

Ocativa can easily get some fire, aggro, AoE damage. Choosing a spot like that is AFK to me.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I've got that problem on Corpus missions, all disruptions, Cetus bounties, some survivals.

That's not my experience, and that's not @nslay experience neither. We both had that problem on Corpus and Cetus bounties (and me on Disruptions and some survivals no matter the faction).

I never use it.

But it's just the contrary : Mesmer Skin is way more OP than Shield gating and with almost no player's investment and skills copared to shield gating. And a balance is not necessarily a nerf.

If you think you can survive on very high level mission based on EHP, I'm pretty sure you never did long runs. Only some mechanics and abilities can let you survive on high level missions : shiled gating, Mesmer Skin, Invisibility, Hysteria. Just look at how many players are asking for some changes to be able to get to cap level with Inaros without spamming the Vazarin invulnerability. I never could go further than level 500 with Inaros.

Garuda ??? Seriously !!! The immortal Garuda !!! Just two hours. She can do much more.

Lavos ??? Easily can go up to to level 500 and then shield gate to survive.

What does this has to do with our discussion by the way ?

If that unmodded frame has much more survivability than any well modded frame in the game, so I care about it.

Steel Path changed nothing to the game density mechanics : it just puts you at a 4 squad level no matters how many players are with you.

Specific mobs are present more often if the density is greater. This can happen on long survival runs and on disruptions very easily.

Density has ever been a problem for Revenant : the more mobs you have, the more stacks you lose. High density of low level is not a problem, but even standard density of high level (with high accuracy) is a problem. Just 12 mobs and you will lose almost all your stacks very fast.

I'll tell them, but my frames will be really surprised.

And even like that she has much less survivivability than Revenant.

Ocativa can easily get some fire, aggro, AoE damage. Choosing a spot like that is AFK to me.

But those arent due to density. That is due to specific mobs or units that would do it no matter the amount of other mobs. And what problem do you have on disruption? Only thing there that ever gave my Rev "problems" was when I decided to melee demolishers due to their dispell skill. Which is again not due to density but very specific mob interaction (which for that matter is intact with the buffs aswell since dispelling is still a thing). So not really sure why you keep saying density was the issue pre-SP.

It doesnt matter if Mesmer is more OP than keygating, it is 1 single frame that can make use of it. It is what makes Rev unique, since instead of checking health or shields, you just keep track of a skill while also keeping more of an eye on nullifying units.

I dont think I can survive in very high level missions on EHP, I do it, unless of course you have very specific idea on what long endless and high level is. 2 hours is it for me, after that I get bored if I'm not already at that point. I really dont care about level cap, never talked about level cap and wont consider level cap a point of balance either. If that is your idea of mesmer all of a sudden being OP, well then that is your view on things. Up to where I play there is not much difference between playing Rev, Lavos, Garuda or Inaros, they all trivialize survival. I do however prefer Lavos and Garuda, since they provide good damage aswell along with tank stats that means your pet wont go down at all, which also means constant viral spread across the map as I kill.

You kinda also prove my point as you set the level of 500. Where there is no OPness regarding Rev, just a different approach to how to survive. I'm not sure why you argue against what you actually tried to argue for in your OP. You dismantle your own view on the skill by saying "oh but they can go much further!", while also kinda cracking your own "armor sucks!" PoV. And what it has to do with the discussion. Well for one, you claiming Mesmer is somehow OP when in reality it only comes to that point in survival so deep into endless that it shouldnt be balanced around in the first place. And I'm not saying it isnt OP, I'm saying you need to look at it in relation to what other frames can do to breeze through content, including higher level content that most will never bother to experience. So if natural tankyness isnt an issue, then certainly mesmer isnt, since it actually needs active upkeep, can be dispelled and so on.

What does unmodded have to do with things? We have access to mods, we will use mods, the ceiling is the same for all. We arent running around nekkid in content. You will invest in the skill to get more duration from it, just as you invested in it earlier to achieve a certain duration you were able to rely on. Some went ham because they couldnt manage evasion so much, I went balanced with around 11 stacks back then. Now I'll rather invest more to make it last longer since my evasion wont benefit it as much in the dense content we have access to now.

Steel Path changed alot with density, namely due to the reason you stated. Or are you completely ignoring that the game can be played 100% solo? You hide among 3 other players and want a change to something that would also effect solo play where all the fire is concentrated?

If you had problems with 12 mobs you clearly did something extremely wrong with your Rev. That is what I'd consider lack of density or very low density, and in such situations rebuffing shouldnt even be a concern.

Why would you play a very static frame like Octavia if you dont intend to play her the way she's best suited i.e "AFK" in your mind. Ah dont tell me, you play her with the roller active aswell to gimp your own damage and put yourself at risk to enemy fire that fails to land on the roller?

[AegidiusF]

Le 16/09/2022 à 15:43, Lutesque a dit :

Did you forget That you were Playing Warframe ? Ofcourse it's Unbalanced.... NOTHING in Warframe is Balanced ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I don't know why, but it's only today that I saw your post.

I agree that there are many thing unbalanced in the game (and I can also add that most attempts to balance things ended up unbalancing the game even more...)

But here I was just suggesting a possible fix to a recent unbalance created by a recent fix.

Anyway, TARINunit9 made a suggestion much better than mine : the 1 second invulnerability should apply only if Revenant gets attacked by a CC-immune Mob.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 17 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

But those arent due to density. That is due to specific mobs or units that would do it no matter the amount of other mobs. And what problem do you have on disruption? Only thing there that ever gave my Rev "problems" was when I decided to melee demolishers due to their dispell skill. Which is again not due to density but very specific mob interaction (which for that matter is intact with the buffs aswell since dispelling is still a thing). So not really sure why you keep saying density was the issue pre-SP.

To me it was. We have two different game experiences (that's possible) and I had problems not only with specific mobs, but also with enemy density on some missions, even before SP.

Il y a 17 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

It doesnt matter if Mesmer is more OP than keygating, it is 1 single frame that can make use of it. It is what makes Rev unique, since instead of checking health or shields, you just keep track of a skill while also keeping more of an eye on nullifying units.

Revenant set of abilities is already unique. He does not need to be easy unkillable. By the way, to me, being unvulnerable was never a problem (just to remind).

Il y a 17 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

2 hours is it for me, after that I get bored if I'm not already at that point.

You have much more endurance than me : more than 1 hour is boring to me (1 hour is my solo limit). On squads I can go a bit more, but It's really boring to me.

Il y a 17 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

I dont think I can survive in very high level missions on EHP, I do it, unless of course you have very specific idea on what long endless and high level is

Long runs is a bit ambiguous. I wanted to talk about long runs to very high level (more than 500). But it also depends on the kind of mission you are playing and on the mission base level.

Il y a 17 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

You dismantle your own view on the skill by saying "oh but they can go much further!", while also kinda cracking your own "armor sucks!"

I think I wasn't clear : my point is that armor is useless at some point and you cannot rely on it to survive. But if you have armor based survivability on a frame, this frame can reach about level 500 without great problems, but with a specific build (just a good build).

Il y a 17 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

What does unmodded have to do with things? We have access to mods, we will use mods, the ceiling is the same for all. We arent running around nekkid in content. You will invest in the skill to get more duration from it, just as you invested in it earlier to achieve a certain duration you were able to rely on. Some went ham because they couldnt manage evasion so much, I went balanced with around 11 stacks back then. Now I'll rather invest more to make it last longer since my evasion wont benefit it as much in the dense content we have access to now.

The "unmodded" point comes from the comparison made between Mesmer skin and other tanky frames : even an unmodded Revenant is tankier than any other tankt frame, that was the reason why I was talking about unmodded Revenant.

Il y a 18 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

Steel Path changed alot with density, namely due to the reason you stated. Or are you completely ignoring that the game can be played 100% solo?

No, I don't ignore the game can be played solo. I play solo very often, almost 75% of my playing time was on solo missions. Anyway, this shown only that density is a problem to Revenant. But I think that it could be a problem even before SP, and you think that the density problem came with SP. It's an "historical" problem. It has no importance on the game's current state of development.

Il y a 18 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

You hide among 3 other players and want a change to something that would also effect solo play where all the fire is concentrated?

As others heve stated : if you are on a squad and players are killing averything around, so the little cooldown won't be a problem. If each quad member are occupied by some mobs, you will be able to gain stacks and ignore the cooldown. If you are solo, you will be able to easily remove the cooldown by regenerating your stacks. So, there is no negative impact at all.

And I've also changed the OP to introduce TARINunit9 suggestion (that is much better than mine) : the 1 second invulnerability applies only if Revenant gets hit by a CC-immune Mob.

Il y a 18 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

If you had problems with 12 mobs you clearly did something extremely wrong with your Rev.

I used to play with 13 stacks max, so 12 mobs firing at me would take almost all my stacks. I only changed my Revenant's build when the new Molt Arcanes were released.

Il y a 18 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

you clearly did something extremely wrong with your Rev.

This is always something that makes me laugh a bit. When I talk about some abilities, frames, problems, features... almost everything, there is always someone saying that I'e dome something wrong, or that I don't know how to play, or that I haven't played that frame enough... They skip the question and the problem to hide about some personal considerations that brings nothing to the discussion.

Does this change the fact that Revenant's Mesmer Skin is unbalanced ? No. Does this has any relation to the Mesmer Skin problem ? No. But some people will still say things like that on every single discussion in this Forum.

Il y a 18 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

Why would you play a very static frame like Octavia if you dont intend to play her the way she's best suited i.e "AFK" in your mind. Ah dont tell me, you play her with the roller active aswell to gimp your own damage and put yourself at risk to enemy fire that fails to land on the roller?

I don't think Octavia is suited for AFK. I agree that she CAN have a static gameplay (as Hydroid, Banshee, Nyx, Inaros, Garuda, Nidus...). But I think she has much greater potential than that : speed buff with Partitioned Mallet (I'm very happy they buffed it recently) to move invisible all around controlling a huge area : that's my Octavia favorite gameplay. I usualy infuse Pillage (it replaces the resonator, which I almost never use) to reduce armor, remove any possible status effects and to regen shields fast if needed.

Even with Hydroid I don't use much his static gameply, I prefer the gameplay based on Tidal Surge+Undertow to pack, then Tentacles with Corrosive barrage to CC and remove Armor (just Berrage to remove shields) and explosive weapons (Glaive, Ranged AoE or Exodia Contagion) to kill.

 

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

To me it was. We have two different game experiences (that's possible) and I had problems not only with specific mobs, but also with enemy density on some missions, even before SP.

Revenant set of abilities is already unique. He does not need to be easy unkillable. By the way, to me, being unvulnerable was never a problem (just to remind).

You have much more endurance than me : more than 1 hour is boring to me (1 hour is my solo limit). On squads I can go a bit more, but It's really boring to me.

Long runs is a bit ambiguous. I wanted to talk about long runs to very high level (more than 500). But it also depends on the kind of mission you are playing and on the mission base level.

I think I wasn't clear : my point is that armor is useless at some point and you cannot rely on it to survive. But if you have armor based survivability on a frame, this frame can reach about level 500 without great problems, but with a specific build (just a good build).

The "unmodded" point comes from the comparison made between Mesmer skin and other tanky frames : even an unmodded Revenant is tankier than any other tankt frame, that was the reason why I was talking about unmodded Revenant.

No, I don't ignore the game can be played solo. I play solo very often, almost 75% of my playing time was on solo missions. Anyway, this shown only that density is a problem to Revenant. But I think that it could be a problem even before SP, and you think that the density problem came with SP. It's an "historical" problem. It has no importance on the game's current state of development.

As others heve stated : if you are on a squad and players are killing averything around, so the little cooldown won't be a problem. If each quad member are occupied by some mobs, you will be able to gain stacks and ignore the cooldown. If you are solo, you will be able to easily remove the cooldown by regenerating your stacks. So, there is no negative impact at all.

And I've also changed the OP to introduce TARINunit9 suggestion (that is much better than mine) : the 1 second invulnerability applies only if Revenant gets hit by a CC-immune Mob.

I used to play with 13 stacks max, so 12 mobs firing at me would take almost all my stacks. I only changed my Revenant's build when the new Molt Arcanes were released.

This is always something that makes me laugh a bit. When I talk about some abilities, frames, problems, features... almost everything, there is always someone saying that I'e dome something wrong, or that I don't know how to play, or that I haven't played that frame enough... They skip the question and the problem to hide about some personal considerations that brings nothing to the discussion.

Does this change the fact that Revenant's Mesmer Skin is unbalanced ? No. Does this has any relation to the Mesmer Skin problem ? No. But some people will still say things like that on every single discussion in this Forum.

I don't think Octavia is suited for AFK. I agree that she CAN have a static gameplay (as Hydroid, Banshee, Nyx, Inaros, Garuda, Nidus...). But I think she has much greater potential than that : speed buff with Partitioned Mallet (I'm very happy they buffed it recently) to move invisible all around controlling a huge area : that's my Octavia favorite gameplay. I usualy infuse Pillage (it replaces the resonator, which I almost never use) to reduce armor, remove any possible status effects and to regen shields fast if needed.

Even with Hydroid I don't use much his static gameply, I prefer the gameplay based on Tidal Surge+Undertow to pack, then Tentacles with Corrosive barrage to CC and remove Armor (just Berrage to remove shields) and explosive weapons (Glaive, Ranged AoE or Exodia Contagion) to kill.

To you it was what? A density issue pre-SP? Then you clearly didnt bother with the movement system of WF. Otherwise please tell me how people managed to go several minutes on end without ever rebuffing or replenishing mesmer skin? It just means you've got an easier time now, when others of us feel zero difference. Rev has always been as OP as he is now when it comes to Mesmer Skin, that is kinda my whole point. That you havent experienced it for one reason or another doesnt matter. He works exactly as he is intended as they explained in the patch notes regarding the changes.

You also still refuse to see that people might wanna swap out skills. Tying in 3 seperate skills to maintain 1 mechanic is not a viable solution. Enthrall and Reave should be optional, not required. And required is a thing they'd end up being if TARINunit9's suggestion would be implemented. It just wont scale well and he will effectively be rendered obsolete again for any ranged steel path mission. Chances are high that even if you'd rely on all 3 skills, you'd still run out in no time at all in such missions, because thralls are limited, spread out and required to regain stacks on Mesmer. I dont think you nor TARIN fully realize how vast the current different still is between normal start chart/arbitrations and SP when it comes to how long mesmer skin lasts. You can still make it last minutes on end on normal charts, but in SP you will be bound somewhat to the "duration" due to the amounts of enemies and incoming fire. His idea is far from better than your.

However, your idea is not really a problem, it is more uhm pointless given how CD's work and how Mesmer works. If you set it at say 20 seconds it will practically do nothing, because you will evade some attacks, so making something like 15 stacks last 20 sec or a bit more in SP wont be a real problem. So it ends up the same more or less, so what exactly did a CD achieve? And outside of SP you can set the CD to a minute and it will still practically do nothing, even with fewer charges on Mesmer, because there are too few enemies so you will have little incoming fire and you will also evade some of it or they'll fail to hit you naturally. So what exactly is the point of adding a CD? It would really only punish him versus the few specific mobs where you actually need a recast available, like when a corrupted nulli spawns on you or you decide to take Rev to disruption to hunt demos, or getting too close to violence etc.

And to be fully honest, yes, how you play a frame can have very high impact on your opinion of what you think needs a change. Going by what you have said makes it look like you havent played Rev very well in pre-SP missions and only realized his OPness now when you got an extra safety net added. When for others, it has always worked that way due to us playing the game with Revenant the "right" way, making Mesmer last for long periods of time. For us, the latest changes are a massive improvement for his SP viability, but he's still far from the point he was in normal missions when playing SP. Since we are in the end talking about minutes of duration in difference for his Mesmer between the two modes. And expected "lifetime" of 30 seconds is far less than expected "lifetime" of 5 minutes, which is the difference between normal survival missions and SP survival. Not to mention that in those expected 30 seconds in SP a higher amount of stacks are used, around 40% more stacks (from 11 to 15/16).

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 21 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

Otherwise please tell me how people managed to go several minutes on end without ever rebuffing or replenishing mesmer skin?

I don't knwo. That's not my (and neither other people) game experience. In some missions I had to recast Mesmer Skin very very often, depending on the enemy density. This is something everybody can understand : Mesmer Skin didn't have, before Veilbreaker, a limit of stacks lost over time : there was nothing to prevent Revenant from instantly losing Mesmer Skin stacks : this was the way it worked. So, at least in theory, everybody has to agree that Mesmer Skin stacks can go down very fast depending on the enemy density (even you agree with that when you say that the introduction of SP was a problem for Revenant as enemy density for solo players was greater).

Il y a 21 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

Rev has always been as OP as he is now when it comes to Mesmer Skin,

Nope. Mesmer Skin mechanics changed : it's much OP than before. Now it's impossible to lose stacks as fast as before. Even you agree with that : you said that Steel Path density was a problem for Revenant, but after Veilbreaker it's no more a problem. So, no, even with your own words Revenant is more OP than before.

Il y a 21 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

You also still refuse to see that people might wanna swap out skills.

People also want to keep AFK mechanics... It's not what people want that matters : it's what is reasonably asked by the players. A warframe has 4 abilities, if people don't like that, it's ok, but the game is like that. It's like asking for removing Nidus stacks to freely use his 4th, or making Saryn 4th whole potential independent from her 1st.

Il y a 21 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

If you set it at say 20 seconds it will practically do nothing, because you will evade some attacks, so making something like 15 stacks last 20 sec or a bit more in SP wont be a real problem.

Evading is already some gameplay interaction and a good thing : players concerned by the surroundings. Very different from "I'm ignoring everything you fire on me".

Il y a 22 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

or getting too close to violence

Even the current state of Mesmer Skin can't ignore Violence : best Acolyte ever.

Il y a 22 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

Going by what you have said makes it look like you havent played Rev very well in pre-SP missions

Your preconceptions don't matter. Really, please, you don't know me, don't know ly life, don't know how I play (except for the videos I posted previously). It's totally off-topic. We are talking about Mesmer skin in itself, no matter who is playing.

Il y a 22 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

and only realized his OPness now when you got an extra safety net added.

One think is an OP tank, another thing is a low cost invulnerable frame ignoring all threat level in the game even unmodded. That's not OP, that"s unbalance.

Again, I never said that invulnerability is a problem : it's OP, but it's not a problem. But it must have a cost or something in return to balance. That's the point. Revenant being OP : that's ok. But Revenant being unbalanced, that's not OK. Previous to Veilbreaker even recasting Mesmer Skin was dangerous (I thought it was for balance).

 

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I don't knwo. That's not my (and neither other people) game experience. In some missions I had to recast Mesmer Skin very very often, depending on the enemy density. This is something everybody can understand : Mesmer Skin didn't have, before Veilbreaker, a limit of stacks lost over time : there was nothing to prevent Revenant from instantly losing Mesmer Skin stacks : this was the way it worked. So, at least in theory, everybody has to agree that Mesmer Skin stacks can go down very fast depending on the enemy density (even you agree with that when you say that the introduction of SP was a problem for Revenant as enemy density for solo players was greater).

Nope. Mesmer Skin mechanics changed : it's much OP than before. Now it's impossible to lose stacks as fast as before. Even you agree with that : you said that Steel Path density was a problem for Revenant, but after Veilbreaker it's no more a problem. So, no, even with your own words Revenant is more OP than before.

People also want to keep AFK mechanics... It's not what people want that matters : it's what is reasonably asked by the players. A warframe has 4 abilities, if people don't like that, it's ok, but the game is like that. It's like asking for removing Nidus stacks to freely use his 4th, or making Saryn 4th whole potential independent from her 1st.

Evading is already some gameplay interaction and a good thing : players concerned by the surroundings. Very different from "I'm ignoring everything you fire on me".

Even the current state of Mesmer Skin can't ignore Violence : best Acolyte ever.

Your preconceptions don't matter. Really, please, you don't know me, don't know ly life, don't know how I play (except for the videos I posted previously). It's totally off-topic. We are talking about Mesmer skin in itself, no matter who is playing.

One think is an OP tank, another thing is a low cost invulnerable frame ignoring all threat level in the game even unmodded. That's not OP, that"s unbalance.

Again, I never said that invulnerability is a problem : it's OP, but it's not a problem. But it must have a cost or something in return to balance. That's the point. Revenant being OP : that's ok. But Revenant being unbalanced, that's not OK. Previous to Veilbreaker even recasting Mesmer Skin was dangerous (I thought it was for balance).

Yeah in SP it was a problem since there are around 50 or so mobs around you at any given time, while on normal maps there are maybe 15 or so. And there was a brief window regarding how fast stacks could be lost, it just happened to only work versus things not immune to CC, and it wasnt long enough to be able to keep up in SP. 

No he's not more OP, he is consistant. He or well mesmer skin still lasts shorter in SP compared to normal, so management is higher. It however works with the number of enemies present on SP maps, which it didnt before. There is like I said a vast difference between being able to rely on something for minutes or a few seconds, which was the case earlier with SP vs normal. It is practically like managing stealth, except your pet wont be invulnerable, so will eventually die while you live. So I guess we should give Loki and the others a CD on stealth aswell? Or for that matter, Loki's 50m disarm definently needs a massive CD.

Not really the same. Those abilites work practically the same everywhere. Enthrall+Reave is a very slow approach, it simply wouldnt keep up in places like SP, because by the time you've prepped thing, you've lost more stacks than you'll gain. And if we are considering keeping invulnerability, it is again back to adding a pointless thing to the skill which will do nothing in the end aside from expose him versus the few mobs that can dispell the skill. Which didnt seem to be the intention, which seemed to more be about how he holds up versus many mobs.

Why not evade even if you have stacks? It will only make them last longer and keep your killing efficiency up instead of having to rebuff.

Yes Violence can, so? You clearly missed the point. With a CD added, only those mobs would actually have an effect on it, since we can make mesmer last until the CD is ready versus normal mobs. Since we are talking about a couple of seconds that need to be maintained if a CD is added, but at that same time, it will make him horribly risky versus demos, violence, accidental nulli spawns and so on. Since you can in those cases effectively be locked out from your only defense for 20 or 30 seconds or whatever you gave as an example. Which pretty much makes him a no-go frame for disruption and barely reliable for SP since you might accidentally get close to violence at the wrong time and be locked out for a long period of time. Right now, if you get caught by violence, you can bullet away and rebuff.

But it does matter alot when it comes to different playstyles, you've proven it here by saying you had problems on normal maps with keeping mesmer skin active. Use more parkour to make it last. It is why others of us see no actual change aside from SP, where we can now actually rely on mesmer skin to do something. And it also comes down to that the idea you provided solves practically nothing of what you see as a problem since the skill will last longer than the CD you want on it.

Mesmer Skin has never been dangerous to recast, atleast not after shield gate was added. And it is just as "dangerous" now unless you wait for the very last stack to also disappear, which I never do. I just rebuff as I go when needed or moving between groups of mobs. I also dont see what is unbalanced, the whole roster is in a balance mess and Rev isnt even a main offender or issue. My Lavos can take severe punishment without really caring, he can also wipe out every enemy on the map within 60m, through walls and across elevations (not too high though) about every 15 seconds or so. And in between he has nice damage buffs thanks to Helminth, constant viral spread due to a nearly immortal pet, and debuffs aswell as CCs cascading out of every hole whenever he uses a skill. But hey, Rev can be invulnerable through a skill, that sure is a problem in his otherwise quite avarage kit.

[nslay]

36 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But it does matter alot when it comes to different playstyles, you've proven it here by saying you had problems on normal maps with keeping mesmer skin active. Use more parkour to make it last.

Also can get a tiny evasion bonus from pairing Sly Vulpaphyla with a Glaive-weilding Revenant.

[(PSN)Unstar]

If people want to survive, let them survive.  There are plenty of abilities in Warframe that make the player effectively immortal.  And being immortal just means you don't die, it doesn't mean that you are effective or even successful at beating your mission.

With all my heart, this is normal and fine.  I would much rather see DE balance things that actually matter.

[Kaiga]

Do you people really want revenant to go back to the non-meta junkheap that 70% of the game's content is, shortly before he's set to recieve a prime version?

Because that's what pulling the rug out of the mesmer skin changes would do. This change was necessary for him to survive actual high level enemy density (the archon fight is not this, level 300+ enemies are) and certain foes (bolkors, etc.) without wiping cheaply- I'd rather have more viable frames than less viable ones. 

There is an argument to be made against mindless facetanks being not particularly engaging content, sure, but if DE wants to make the game harder by nerfing survivability, then they'd start likely with frames like inaros instead of revenant.

[KosmicKerman]

The original post completely misses the mark. When you evaluate a warframe you need to evaluate their entire kit. Revenant's 2 is the primary ability in his kit and allows him to function as a weapon platform. The rest of his abilities are pretty lackluster. His 1 provides some nice CC for missions where you don't need to kill enemies but he functions fine without it. His 3 has some niche use cases but is a pain to use and build around if the goal is maximizing his 2.  And if you make Mesmer skin worse than why not play Nezha, Rhino, or Inaros if you are looking for a weapon platform. I like using Revenant in missions where the primary objective is not killing enemies so that I can focus on what I need to do and have a more relaxed experience. If OP thinks Revenant is too simple or makes the game too easy, play another frame. There are 49 other choices.  

[AegidiusF]

Le 20/09/2022 à 14:58, SneakyErvin a dit :

I dont think you nor TARIN fully realize how vast the current different still is between normal start chart/arbitrations and SP when it comes to how long mesmer skin lasts.

The fix Tarin suggested is very nice and I think he got the perfect way to solve the problem.

(Sorry, I had to go to work and I couldn't finish my previous post).

Il y a 6 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

Yeah in SP it was a problem since there are around 50 or so mobs around you at any given time, while on normal maps there are maybe 15 or so. And there was a brief window regarding how fast stacks could be lost, it just happened to only work versus things not immune to CC, and it wasnt long enough to be able to keep up in SP. 

This only shows that enemy density has ever been a problem to Mesmer Skin (independent of the game mode). There can be much more than 15 Mobs around on normal mode and Revenant have much more than Mesmer Skin to CC and make the Mesmer Skin stacks remain for a bit longer. Revenant survivability used to rely not only on Mesmer Skin, but also on his other abilities (at least to protect him while recasting Mesmer Skin).

Il y a 6 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

So I guess we should give Loki and the others a CD on stealth aswell? Or for that matter, Loki's 50m disarm definently needs a massive CD.

Loki has never been OP and he has a specific balance : his invisibility cannot be recasted and you need to protect yourself to recast it (it's intended like that, as the in game tips say). Disarm do not prevent all damage and Loki can take damage from many sources. Also, it has 100 base energy cost : the double of Mesmer Skin base cost. The new Loki Augment Mod for Switch Teleport is excellent but it also needs a specific build to work nice and has a 75 energy cost : higher than Mesmer Skin for a lower invulnerability duration. Loki can be invulnerable now, but it has a cost (and not a cheap one) ! That's very different from Revenant.

Il y a 6 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

Enthrall+Reave is a very slow approach, it simply wouldnt keep up in places like SP

It worked very well on the Archon fight and I always use it on SP without problems. A one-hit KO synergy than can easily kill a cap level mob is excelllent.

Il y a 6 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

Yes Violence can, so? You clearly missed the point. With a CD added, only those mobs would actually have an effect on it, since we can make mesmer last until the CD is ready versus normal mobs. Since we are talking about a couple of seconds that need to be maintained if a CD is added, but at that same time, it will make him horribly risky versus demos, violence, accidental nulli spawns and so on. Since you can in those cases effectively be locked out from your only defense for 20 or 30 seconds or whatever you gave as an example. Which pretty much makes him a no-go frame for disruption and barely reliable for SP since you might accidentally get close to violence at the wrong time and be locked out for a long period of time. Right now, if you get caught by violence, you can bullet away and rebuff.

Violence is the best Acolyte in my opinion and the reason I love her is that you need to change your gameplay when she appears. If you can't use Mesmer Skin (less than 20m from her) you'll need to fight her from a certain distance, or use some other mechanics. There is only warframe that can prevents Violence decast and it's Banshee herself with the true Silence ability. Every other signle frame suffers from Violence when she uses Silence. She is a threat for everybody, Revenant is no exception. Yareli will lose Merulina, Valkyr won't be able to use Hysteria... all these frames will need to adapt and find a way : and that way is pretty simple as Violence will attack with melee. The cooldown won't change anything, as Revenant's advantage against Violence is Enthrall : Violence do not dispells all abilities and Thralls will still fight her and take her attention giving you enough time to kill her. That's how I deal with her and it works really nice.

Il y a 6 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

Use more parkour to make it last

Who told you I wasn't using it ? Santa Claus ? 😆 (just a little joke).

Il y a 6 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

Mesmer Skin has never been dangerous to recast, atleast not after shield gate was added.

I depends on the mission, on the damage type, on the enemy density... Some Toxin while recasting and RIP Revenant (at least before Veilbreaker).

 

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 5 heures, (PSN)Unstar a dit :

If people want to survive, let them survive.  There are plenty of abilities in Warframe that make the player effectively immortal.  And being immortal just means you don't die, it doesn't mean that you are effective or even successful at beating your mission.

With all my heart, this is normal and fine.  I would much rather see DE balance things that actually matter.

We all agree about this. Survivability, invulnerability, immortality... all these are not the problem here : the question is what you need to achieve it.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 3 heures, Kaiga a dit :

(the archon fight is not this, level 300+ enemies are)

We all agree about this. Invulnerability is not the problem we are talking about here. The question here is what you need to achieve it.

Il y a 3 heures, Kaiga a dit :

I'd rather have more viable frames than less viable ones. 

I totally agree.

il y a 18 minutes, KosmicKerman a dit :

When you evaluate a warframe you need to evaluate their entire kit.

That's what I did. By the way, I'm the one saying that it's his whole set of abilities that make Revenant an excellent tank, not only Mesmer Skin.

il y a 20 minutes, KosmicKerman a dit :

And if you make Mesmer skin worse than why not play Nezha, Rhino, or Inaros if you are looking for a weapon platform.

Because Revenant has a peculier and unique set of abilities with internal synergy that make him very different from these frames. Also, he has that awesome Deluxe skin 😍 made by Debbie Sheen.

 

il y a 27 minutes, KosmicKerman a dit :

If OP thinks Revenant is too simple or makes the game too easy, play another frame. There are 49 other choices

Totally off topic.

I play every single frame, but that's my choice. We are not talking bout my gameplay, but about Mesmer Skin balance in itself.

[(NSW)freedycurie]

All this threat remembers me of lazy Wukong players saying that Wukong didn't need any changes and refusing to see the evident truth : he was OP and unbalanced.

People just want to use Mesmer Skin and don't want to use Rev's other abilities : that's the problem : lazy gameplay, just as for Wukong.

Revenant is now even more "unkillable" than before : if the recent buff changed nothing, so why would they do it ? And why would some players refuse a little balance if the 1 second invulnerability make no difference ? He is as OP as before ? OK, so why refuse to come back as before ? You don't want to undo the changes, so you're confessing that he is more OP now than before.

In addition to tankness, Revenant can one shot enemies regardless of level.

[Kartumterek]

cant really complain about it when its been broken in his favor for years now... it was due to be looked at at some point

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 14 heures, (NSW)freedycurie a dit :

All this threat remembers me of lazy Wukong players saying that Wukong didn't need any changes and refusing to see the evident truth : he was OP and unbalanced.

People just want to use Mesmer Skin and don't want to use Rev's other abilities : that's the problem : lazy gameplay, just as for Wukong.

Revenant is now even more "unkillable" than before : if the recent buff changed nothing, so why would they do it ? And why would some players refuse a little balance if the 1 second invulnerability make no difference ? He is as OP as before ? OK, so why refuse to come back as before ? You don't want to undo the changes, so you're confessing that he is more OP now than before.

In addition to tankness, Revenant can one shot enemies regardless of level.

I understant your point and I wish to thank you for your answer, but we are talking here about Mesmer Skin balance in itself, regardless of how people play.