(Survey) Are you for (+) or against (-) an item for changing a Riven Attribute?

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

26 minutes ago, L3512 said:

Why is this powercreep that you propose is bad, good for some players and not others?

 

powercreep is ultimately a method to encourage monetization

it needs to be present, but also controlled to maintain exclusivity.

Widespread powercreep, such as proposed by OP's stat locking would be too out of control. devaluing Rivens and thus hurting monetization.

Overpowered rivens on the market is fine as long as whales are paying for them. But if Everyone has easy power, then the whales are no longer incentivized to pay. You're paying for the priviledge to get ahead of others.

so I guess to answer your question: it's good for some and bad for others. because some have money and some don't.

money is a good thing, keeps the lights on.

 

P.S. Yes, I am actually defending 'pay to win' as a good thing.

[DebrisFlow]

I would not allow anything too deterministic there, but i would accept an item that rerolls only one stat at random.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

3 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Based

Rivens are a mistake. 

[quxier]

12 hours ago, Voltage said:

I don't like slot machines at all, but I value my time and the preservation of investment.

So you are saying that you wasted time (to earn plat, kuva and riven) and don't like other people to have it better and more fair time? That make sense. However such opinions while valid stops system (game) to improve.

12 hours ago, Voltage said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Everyone deserve the same opportunities but the amount of runs shouldn't be VERY different between different players. 

Why not? Playing a game centered around loot and drop chances doesn't make you entitled to the same rewards as everyone else. Part of what makes a game like this interesting in the first place is having an account set apart from the rest, not everyone being the same. Whether it be cosmetics or raw stats. Rivens may be an unhealthy upgrade system, but they can be ignored by most players, aren't core to the success of missions, and give players something unique to set their equipment apart in terms of builds.

Players using different things because of their preference is good. However when player cannot affect it (randomness without proper ways to affect it) or very expensive make game less of entertainment and more of "slavery" or job. It's not healthy.

12 hours ago, Nero said:

@quxier

The original idea was a price of 1,000 platinum per attribute change with no other caps, so that the max price for Rivens would be fixed at 4,000. Talking to another player, the idea came up to adopt a monthly cap instead, as the price of 1,000 seemed too high, but it is clear that a cap is needed.

It's still too much for me. For the price of ~300p I can get whole new experience with frames (if they are good). Slot and potato included.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Any way to pinpoint stats on riven has to make them untradable. Though that just makes riven module mods.

[PublikDomain]

I'm very much for improving the Riven system, but why make locking stats rare? Rivens should be a normal part of the game's progression just like Forma and potatoes.

[Voltage]

7 hours ago, quxier said:

So you are saying that you wasted time (to earn plat, kuva and riven) and don't like other people to have it better and more fair time? That make sense. However such opinions while valid stops system (game) to improve.

It would only be a waste if DE dumbed it down. Right now it feels like a long time accomplishment that pushes my inventory further above most other players. Dumbing down systems or making something easier doesn't automatically translate to improvement or a better state. Lots of people ask for things like stat locking because they expect such a system to only cost them a fraction of the Kuva per Riven and be cheap to "finish" them. I wouldn't mind if RNG was heavily lessened from rolling in favor of being relatively close to that average time investment in resource cost. However, that amount of resources would be so ludicrously expensive and in the hundreds of millions of Kuva per weapon which would just piss off those who asked for the mechanic in the first place.

I used Buff00n's RNG Simulator to simulate for an example Riven of CC, CD, MS -Zoom, and on average it would take ~125,000 rolls to earn these exact stats between 2500 unique unrolled Rivens. This is approximately 437,000,000 Kuva. Would you be okay with stat-locking a specific Riven with 3+/1- stats costing this much? I doubt it.

7 hours ago, quxier said:

Players using different things because of their preference is good. However when player cannot affect it (randomness without proper ways to affect it) or very expensive make game less of entertainment and more of "slavery" or job. It's not healthy.

The entire point of randomization is that you have no affect over the outcome. Players accept scheduled content where they have no control over good missions/rewards being in rotation, but when it comes to Riven Mods people change their tune because they feel entitled to these rewards. I read so many threads about Rivens, but nothing about Arbitrations, Fissures, Eidolon night cycles, and all sorts of other decisions that make the game feel way more like a job compared to the Riven System. You're not necessarily wrong, but Rivens are far from the reason Warframe can feel this way. It's also about how you treat it. I like playing the game with goals in mind, so the game naturally feels like tasks and achievements.

[Voltage]

6 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I'm very much for improving the Riven system, but why make locking stats rare? Rivens should be a normal part of the game's progression just like Forma and potatoes.

I'd agree if this was 2017 and Rivens were relatively new, but the system has been out for 6+ years now and translated to tens or even hundreds of millions of Platinum and billions of Kuva spent across the playerbase. Doing this sort of thing further panders to newer players and absolutely pisses on Veteran inventories. Why do you feel players deserve to progress into high end Rivens and comparing them to something as trivial as a Forma, Exilus Adapter, Arcane Adapter or Orokin Catalyst? The power Rivens provide isn't even required anywhere in the game either.

[thetdw2000]

18 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

I'm an advocate for Rivens outright removal so....🤣

16 hours ago, Kaiga said:

Rivens were a mistake.

8 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Based

"You need to get lucky enough to get a riven, then you need to get lucky enough to unveil a riven for your favorite weapon, then grind kuva to reroll, then get lucky enough with rolls to get decent stats that counter powercreep?

You have a CHANCE to get a CHANCE to get a CHANCE of what you actually want? WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?!?!"

[cute_moth.npc]

Aside from for or against, Rivens are gambling, monetization of a way to affect the outcome is crossing the line into selling gambling services. They may not be easily able to sell an item like this through the game market in particular because a number of countries have regulations against gambling in gaming.

 

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

the system has been out for 6+ years now and translated to tens or even hundreds of millions of Platinum and billions of Kuva spent across the playerbase.

I'm gonna be honest, I straight up do not care. I'm sorry if you've already wasted hundreds of hours of your life grinding Kuva to throw away on rolls you didn't want, you shouldn't have had to. You shouldn't have to continue to in the future. I'm sorry if you've spent thousands of plat on god rolls, you shouldn't have had to. You shouldn't have to continue to in the future. And I especially I don't care if you make plat selling Rivens, because the financial gains of a few players are not worth more than everyone else that plays the game.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Doing this sort of thing further panders to newer players and absolutely pisses on Veteran inventories.

No, no it doesn't. I am a veteran player, and what's been pissing on me for the last 6 years is that Rivens remain a rare, expensive, unbalanceable market toy for scalpers and whales. I am neither of which, and so all but a half dozen or so of my Rivens remain veiled, unidentified, or unused, and I have no interest in using them because I know that this system's RNG is against me and my effort will not be rewarded. Letting me use my Rivens I've earned on weapons I like and working towards stats I want does not piss on my inventory, it lets me use my inventory. And if this "panders" to new players as well, good! New players should be allowed to play the game too.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

The power Rivens provide isn't even required anywhere in the game either.

And yet they provide power anyways, and that causes all sorts of problems. The biggest is that DE themselves say they don't balance the game with Rivens in mind. So if they don't balance for Rivens, and you have a Riven... you're using stats that DE isn't accounting for and are therefore always going to be above the curve. Rivens are in that way inherently destructive to game balance: they are not balanced for, but they affect balance. The only reason DE doesn't balance with Rivens in mind is because that'd exclude all of the players without that power, and the only reason players can't just go get said power is because it's bogged down with Riven RNG. If there weren't such harsh RNG then the power Rivens grant could be normal, and therefore balanced around. And then it'd be easier for DE to build content where this power is required or useful without having to rely on mechanics like Attenuation.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Why do you feel players deserve to progress into high end Rivens and comparing them to something as trivial as a Forma, Exilus Adapter, Arcane Adapter or Orokin Catalyst?

I feel like they should because it's the fair thing to do, it'd make balancing the game easier, and ultimately because I want to play with my Rivens too. So I can ask you the same, why do you feel that players don't deserve to progress into high end Rivens? What positive effect comes from that?

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

It would only be a waste if DE dumbed it down. Right now it feels like a long time accomplishment that pushes my inventory further above most other players. Dumbing down systems or making something easier doesn't automatically translate to improvement or a better state. Lots of people ask for things like stat locking because they expect such a system to only cost them a fraction of the Kuva per Riven and be cheap to "finish" them. I wouldn't mind if RNG was heavily lessened from rolling in favor of being relatively close to that average time investment in resource cost. However, that amount of resources would be so ludicrously expensive and in the hundreds of millions of Kuva per weapon which would just piss off those who asked for the mechanic in the first place.

I used Buff00n's RNG Simulator to simulate for an example Riven of CC, CD, MS -Zoom, and on average it would take ~125,000 rolls to one between 2500 unique unrolled Rivens. This is approximately 437,000,000 Kuva. Would you be okay with stat-locking a specific Riven with 3+/1- stats costing this much? I doubt it.

The entire point of randomization is that you have no affect over the outcome. Players accept scheduled content where they have no control over good missions/rewards being in rotation, but when it comes to Riven Mods people change their tune because they feel entitled to these rewards. I read so many threads about Rivens, but nothing about Arbitrations, Fissures, Eidolon night cycles, and all sorts of other decisions that make the game feel way more like a job compared to the Riven System. You're not necessarily wrong, but Rivens are far from the reason Warframe can feel this way. It's also about how you treat it. I like playing the game with goals in mind, so the game naturally feels like tasks and achievements.

So your position essentially boils down to the boomer trolley problem:

The train is running people over and could be stopped at any time, but that would be unfair to the people its already run over.

 

That sounds a lot like gatekeeping and entitlement. 

 

"No i dont want to lose my special snowflake riven collector status". 

DE has never been afraid to nerf grind if the grind is considered excessive in the past even if people already suffered through it. 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

25 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

*snip*

I feel like they should because it's the fair thing to do, it'd make balancing the game easier, and ultimately because I want to play with my Rivens too. So I can ask you the same, why do you feel that players don't deserve to progress into high end Rivens? What positive effect comes from that?

You dont get it.

He doesnt just want high end rivens. He wants a warm fuzzy feeling of elitist pride for being one the only ones with high end rivens. It aint enough to drive a fast car his car has to be faster than everyone elses. 

Because he's *special* unlike the rest of us peasants.

 

[Voltage]

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I'm gonna be honest, I straight up do not care. I'm sorry if you've already wasted hundreds of hours of your life grinding Kuva to throw away on rolls you didn't want, you shouldn't have had to. You shouldn't have to continue to in the future. I'm sorry if you've spent thousands of plat on god rolls, you shouldn't have had to. You shouldn't have to continue to in the future. And I especially I don't care if you make plat selling Rivens, because the financial gains of a few players are not worth more than everyone else that plays the game.

No, no it doesn't. I am a veteran player, and what's been pissing on me for the last 6 years is that Rivens remain a rare, expensive, unbalanceable market toy for scalpers and whales. I am neither of which, and so all but a half dozen or so of my Rivens remain veiled, unidentified, or unused, and I have no interest in using them because I know that this system's RNG is against me and my effort will not be rewarded. Letting me use my Rivens I've earned on weapons I like and working towards stats I want does not piss on my inventory, it lets me use my inventory. And if this "panders" to new players as well, good! New players should be allowed to play the game too.

And yet they provide power anyways, and that causes all sorts of problems. The biggest is that DE themselves say they don't balance the game with Rivens in mind. So if they don't balance for Rivens, and you have a Riven... you're using stats that DE isn't accounting for and are therefore always going to be above the curve. Rivens are in that way inherently destructive to game balance: they are not balanced for, but they affect balance. The only reason DE doesn't balance with Rivens in mind is because that'd exclude all of the players without that power, and the only reason players can't just go get said power is because it's bogged down with Riven RNG. If there weren't such harsh RNG then the power Rivens grant could be normal, and therefore balanced around. And then it'd be easier for DE to build content where this power is required or useful without having to rely on mechanics like Attenuation.

I feel like they should because it's the fair thing to do, it'd make balancing the game easier, and ultimately because I want to play with my Rivens too. So I can ask you the same, why do you feel that players don't deserve to progress into high end Rivens? What positive effect comes from that?

This perspective boils down to "it's acceptable for live service games to just bend you over the longer you play the game". You're not entitled to the same account progress with much less invested in the game than others. Warframe is all about power and wealth. You can invalidate Riven Mods in a hypothetical attempt to bridge the gap, but you would just be moving to the next item. Riven Mods aren't the first time a casual majority complained about accessibility. Once upon a time it was complaints that not everyone has access to Arcane Grace, Avenger, Guardian, and Energize (because very few wanted to dedicate time to farming Trials), and the same discussion went on where 99% of players call the 1% elitist because the 1% actually invested in the system and didn't expect to be handed the rewards. Rivens are accessible, players just choose not to engage and that is absolutely on them. There is no actual gatekeep. Trading has always been competitive, and rare items will always be worth alot.

You comment on effort not being rewarded, but that's literally the rest of the game and the cycle of updates. I was farming 5% Lich Ephemeras, launch day Vidar Reactors in Veil Proxima, and the Blazing Step Ephemera from ESO. Your time is not valued by this game and Rivens are not unique in this aspect. I make my posts here (and many other previous threads about Rivens) because Rivens are a massive investment for those into them. I didn't expect others to agree with me because I'm not an average player, but I wanted to put in writing how much effort this system has behind it, and the fact that you can remain an average player that can compete in whatever content DE adds to the game. New players are already allowed to engage in Rivens.

It doesn't cause problems at all. Players only use weapons for their innate attributes. Rivens have only once made a dramatic change into gameplay and that was when melee Riven range was percentage based. If DE balance the game with Rivens in mind, then I would completely agree with A) Allowing a player to own one Riven for every weapon in the game, and B) A much cheaper time investment for making perfect/completed Rivens. Since they aren't in the scope of the game's balance, they can certainly remain a luxury arsenal item with the huge cost behind it as it is an end-game system nobody has to do, but have the freedom to engage with if they want that next level.

This portion of your comment revolves around a perfect world where DE is capable of balancing our arsenal. 10 years of failure doesn't spell a bright future. They are trying to play catch up in 2016 while players are in 2023.

What is unfair about the current situation? You can one shot Archons without Rivens, do 6x3s, and extremely fast Profit-Takers. You can go multiple hours in Steel Path without stat-sticks, power-level equipment, you can score top 100 whenever we get Operations, you can do high level Index, farm Endo in Arena, and Arbitrations. There is nothing in the game that unfairly treats players who don't have Rivens, let alone the high end of said Rivens.

I had a poor choice of words at the end of my statement. I meant to say "why do players deserve Rivens to be as trivial as Forma, Catalysts, etc.". Everyone deserves to progress the system if they choose to engage with it, and I've already voiced that prior. My only point is that if we detach rolls from multiple layers of RNG, the cost per riven for specific stats will be ludicrously expensive or the entire system becomes trivial and just another shallow system you can finish in a few weeks.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

So your position essentially boils down to the boomer trolley problem:

The train is running people over and could be stopped at any time, but that would be unfair to the people its already run over.

In your boomer trolley problem, the trolley operator died 6 years ago and the trolley company doesn't care because the trolley company also sells funeral services.

If you feel damaged by the Riven system, you are more than capable of not engaging with them and still being just as competitive with your arsenal in the rest of the game. You're not entitled to the same Riven progress as everyone else with substantially less invested into them. That's not how a loot-based game works. If you want to be powerful and wealthy you make it a goal and invest time and resources to reach there. This silver platter development DE has been doing for years is why the game is shallow and devoid of unique reasons to keep playing.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

DE has never been afraid to nerf grind if the grind is considered excessive in the past even if people already suffered through it. 

Riven Mods are multiple magnitudes different from other systems, and their previous behavior is also wrong. I farmed Railjack day 1, crafted all PoE Arcanes, I got my original Arcanes from Trials, and I farmed Blazing Step Ephemera from ESO. It's very rude to launch a system in a grindy state, intentionally leave it alone for some period of time, and then dumb it down to try and bridge the gap between heavily invested and  less invested players. That's not what "fair" means. Fair means giving players the same opportunities to reach the same point as others. You can reach the same point as me. I have almost 10,000 in-mission hours. I've put in the effort to reach this point, and I really don't care that you find me elitist for valuing my inventory at this stage of the game.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

You dont get it.

He doesnt just want high end rivens. He wants a warm fuzzy feeling of elitist pride for being one the only ones with high end rivens. It aint enough to drive a fast car his car has to be faster than everyone elses. 

Because he's *special* unlike the rest of us peasants.

PublikDomain has a much better response and counter-argument to what I posted previously in this thread. Your take is the exact garbage that plagued my Primed Chamber thread in 2020. The ironic "you're a toxic elitist!" while bringing filth to an average discussion simply because I don't align with everyone else.

If you put 2000 hours over 5 years into an optional certification you got for yourself, and then the rules change and I can come along and reach that same certification in 500 hours over 2 years, you would feel a little frustrated. That's not entitlement or gatekeeping, that's you respecting yourself and your time; the sentimental value of your investment. You're not elitist for feeling rubbed the wrong way by a rug pull of rules.

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I'm very much for improving the Riven system, but why make locking stats rare? Rivens should be a normal part of the game's progression just like Forma and potatoes.

that's not healthy for the game, nor its Revenue.

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I'm gonna be honest, I straight up do not care.

you should, the sustainability of the game is what lets it be there for you to play.

 

 

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

No, no it doesn't. I am a veteran player, and what's been pissing on me for the last 6 years is that Rivens remain a rare, expensive, unbalanceable market toy for scalpers and whales. I am neither of which, and so all but a half dozen or so of my Rivens remain veiled, unidentified, or unused, and I have no interest in using them because I know that this system's RNG is against me and my effort will not be rewarded. Letting me use my Rivens I've earned on weapons I like and working towards stats I want does not piss on my inventory, it lets me use my inventory. And if this "panders" to new players as well, good! New players should be allowed to play the game too.

that entirely does cater towards new Players. a great Riven being as normal as upgrading Serration benefits Players near the start of the curve, and not really anyone else.

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I feel like they should because it's the fair thing to do, it'd make balancing the game easier, and ultimately because I want to play with my Rivens too. So I can ask you the same, why do you feel that players don't deserve to progress into high end Rivens? What positive effect comes from that?

fair to who? it's not fair to anybody. it's not fair to the game, and in numerous ways it's not fair to the Players.
if you want to remove an avenue of Monetization from the game - and one that isn't a minor one either - what are you going to replace it with? if your answer is nothing, then you're mostly just saying you don't care about the game, yourself, or any of the Playerbase.

the actual reality to that is that if you break Rivens for the game, the game will be forced to introduce something to take its place both in power, Monetization capability, and rarity. so, basically add the same thing all over again.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

20 minutes ago, taiiat said:

fair to who? it's not fair to anybody. it's not fair to the game, and in numerous ways it's not fair to the Players.
if you want to remove an avenue of Monetization from the game - and one that isn't a minor one either - what are you going to replace it with? if your answer is nothing, then you're mostly just saying you don't care about the game, yourself, or any of the Playerbase.

Are you actually arguing FOR Rivens in the current market for them? 

Not surprised at all but Rivens are digital cancer.

[quxier]

16 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Right now it feels like a long time accomplishment that pushes my inventory further above most other players.

Soooooooooo:

- getting lucky with riven OR

- doing random things for long time to farm plat

- buying plat for real money

sounds like accomplishment?

I've lost weight by working out & limiting eating (sweets). I've changed my body and I've made my eating habits more healthy. That felt like accomplishment. Playing video games to earn virtual currency to that extent doesn't sounds healthy for me. It doesn't sounds like accomplishment. It sounds like I've fell in their trap.

Getting lucky & paying real money doesn't sounds like accomplishment at all. What's your accomplishment from pulling the lever of virtual slot machine and getting good drop? Nothing. You just get lucky. It's nice feeling but it's not accomplishment.

33 minutes ago, Voltage said:

It would only be a waste if DE dumbed it down. Dumbing down systems or making something easier doesn't automatically translate to improvement or a better state.

It's already dumb system. I mean not very complex. Like you get few random stats and that's it. Possible combinations are diluted with useless combinations so you have to pull the lever more - wasting time.

40 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I wouldn't mind if RNG was heavily lessened from rolling in favor of being relatively close to that average time investment in resource cost. However, that amount of resources would be so ludicrously expensive and in the hundreds of millions of Kuva per weapon which would just piss off those who asked for the mechanic in the first place.

I used Buff00n's RNG Simulator to simulate for an example Riven of CC, CD, MS -Zoom, and on average it would take ~125,000 rolls to one between 2500 unique unrolled Rivens. This is approximately 437,000,000 Kuva. Would you be okay with stat-locking a specific Riven with 3+/1- stats costing this much? I doubt it.

Why would I even want to pay that much? Riven stats are bloated with many stats so you roll more. Your average kuva would be lower if you put less stats. Would you pay 4 000 plat for maxed Primed Continuity? No? Why not? Because it's system is designed to be less cheating. You need (I don't remember exactly) 40k endo & 4M credits to max it. You can get it random from baro or buy it for ~30p at base OR ~100 at full rank. That's good prices for mod that's usable on all frames.

52 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The entire point of randomization is that you have no affect over the outcome.

That's only 1 "point" of it. You can use randomness in different ways, potentially joining different methods. For example with random maps (Procedural Content Generation of maps) you want to affect some outcome. For example you want players being able to travel trough it (e.g. player cannot be in room without being able to exit it) or limit how big it is. Even rivens has some "limits" like max 4 stats, what stats are negative, their ranges etc.

Randomness used with rivens are used to force us to play it. Like you get 3 stat riven with stats like +100% to Puncture/Impact & + 100 to duration where you weapon doesn't have puncture/impact and has low duration.

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Players accept scheduled content where they have no control over good missions/rewards being in rotation, but when it comes to Riven Mods people change their tune because they feel entitled to these rewards.

It's not that they accept it.

You get random drop like 37% corrupted holokeys. Some people don't get that close to 37% drops (very bad drop or almost not existent like running missions for hours and not getting it). People complain about it.

Then there are cases where you can just buy stuffs. Like for solo player getting drops from relics, especially rare chance is very hard. There is lot of randomness included. I hate it and I don't usually play it unless I have that random radiant relic from ESO (or other mission) and I feel like doing some void fissures. Otherwise I can just earn plat. Recently introduced Baruuk prime costs just 80 plat. That's very reasonable price for whole new experience (new frame with new powers).

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

You're not necessarily wrong, but Rivens are far from the reason Warframe can feel this way. It's also about how you treat it.

Sure, you can treat everything as fun. That's not very good thing to discuss as it's very subjective. I can tell you that some people like Yareli's Merulina. Objectively speaking Merulina restrics your weapon choice (only secondary), limit your movements (e.g. no proper roll), harder to execute slams (compared to melee). People still can like it.

5 hours ago, Voltage said:

I like playing the game with goals in mind, so the game naturally feels like tasks and achievements.

It's fine to have goals. Lua's prey gave us nice system where even you don't get lucky you still get resources that you can change for for parts. Only Somatic fibers are not available. Nightwave gives us list of tasks and goal (shop).

Goals should be achievable. When you play and you don't get results then system fails apart. Riven system is one example. Tenet melees are another one (if you don't get Holokeys).

32 minutes ago, Voltage said:

This perspective boils down to "it's acceptable for live service games to just bend you over the longer you play the game". You're not entitled to the same account progress with much less invested in the game than others.

37 minutes ago, Voltage said:

If you feel damaged by the Riven system, you are more than capable of not engaging with them and still being just as competitive with your arsenal in the rest of the game. You're not entitled to the same Riven progress as everyone else with substantially less invested into them. That's not how a loot-based game works. If you want to be powerful and wealthy you make it a goal and invest time and resources to reach there. This silver platter development DE has been doing for years is why the game is shallow and devoid of unique reasons to keep playing.

So you are saying less playtime (for specific item) should yields much less results (e.g. worse riven). Sure that's great. But why DE disrespect our time with riven. You can roll 1 time or 1000 times and get same result.

39 minutes ago, Voltage said:

3 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

DE has never been afraid to nerf grind if the grind is considered excessive in the past even if people already suffered through it. 

Riven Mods are multiple magnitudes different from other systems, and their previous behavior is also wrong. I farmed Railjack day 1, crafted all PoE Arcanes, I got my original Arcanes from Trials, and I farmed Blazing Step Ephemera from ESO. It's very rude to launch a system in a grindy state, intentionally leave it alone for some period of time, and then dumb it down to try and bridge the gap between heavily invested and  less invested players. That's not what "fair" means. Fair means giving players the same opportunities to reach the same point as others. You can reach the same point as me. I have almost 10,000 in-mission hours. I've put in the effort to reach this point, and I really don't care that you find me elitist for valuing my inventory at this stage of the game.

You have to take into account that live service games are not perfect. They had to constantly evolve/change. What felt like fair "stuffs" few years ago nowadays may seems not be fair and vice versa. Fairness isn't about people but system. It's not about you that spent hundred of hours farming that 1 ephemera - it's about how long that ephemera should drop. If it's too long to drop then it should be changed.

51 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Fair means giving players the same opportunities to reach the same point as others. You can reach the same point as me. I have almost 10,000 in-mission hours. I've put in the effort to reach this point, and I really don't care that you find me elitist for valuing my inventory at this stage of the game.

You cannot guarantee that. Not with Riven. Not with Tenet melees. There are probably few things that you cannot guarantee.

57 minutes ago, Voltage said:

if you put 2000 hours over 5 years into an optional certification you got for yourself, and then the rules change and I can come along and reach that same certification in 500 hours over 2 years, you would feel a little frustrated. That's not entitlement or gatekeeping, that's you respecting yourself and your time; the sentimental value of your investment. You're not elitist for feeling rubbed the wrong way by a rug pull of rules.

But do you feel that 2k hours were used efficiently or have you wasted some of that time or have very little progress? If you fell like you are wasting your time and yet still keep going then it's your problem. I find farming holokeys horrible (I don't like rj, it's long for me, drops are small etc). I don't do it. I don't waste time on system like this. I've only recently farmed missing 10 holos because I've gotten 30 from Twitch.

And you know what's funny? Current riven system allows such different results in time. You could put 1 hour and I can put 1k hour and still get the same result. Yeah, I don't like it.

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

This perspective boils down to "it's acceptable for live service games to just bend you over the longer you play the game". You're not entitled to the same account progress with much less invested in the game than others.

What? Where do you even get that? I have almost 6,000 hours in this game. I'm L2. But I'm less invested? I'm very invested in this game - just not hateful enough of my own free time that I'd choose to waste it grinding on something that even you suggest isn't necessary.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Riven Mods aren't the first time a casual majority complained about accessibility. Once upon a time it was complaints that not everyone has access to Arcane Grace, Avenger, Guardian, and Energize (because very few wanted to dedicate time to farming Trials), and the same discussion went on where 99% of players call the 1% elitist because the 1% actually invested in the system and didn't expect to be handed the rewards.

Well, where have those complaints about accessibility led? Historically, most of the game's exclusive and exclusionary systems have followed a similar path: towards improved accessibility and a better, more equal game. Like the Arcanes you mention: all the newest Arcanes since Fortuna can be bought directly for tokens or standing. RNG protection mechanics are widely praised and nowadays exist for most content, even brand new content. That might bother you if you've attached some value to your "investment", but I'm not here to look at your "investment" and I do not care what it is. I want to play the game for me.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Rivens are accessible, players just choose not to engage and that is absolutely on them. There is no actual gatekeep. Trading has always been competitive, and rare items will always be worth alot.

"Buy it from us if you want to play with that part of the game" is not really my idea of accessibility, sorry. It's better than nothing, like in the case of Taus, but it's hardly praiseworthy. I'd much prefer to DIY and progress on my own than have to pay someone else for the privilege. And when you DIY, things like the ever-diluting weapon pool and the steep RNG around stat rolling make that not a realistic proposition.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

It doesn't cause problems at all. Players only use weapons for their innate attributes. Rivens have only once made a dramatic change into gameplay and that was when melee Riven range was percentage based. If DE balance the game with Rivens in mind, then I would completely agree with A) Allowing a player to own one Riven for every weapon in the game, and B) A much cheaper time investment for making perfect/completed Rivens. Since they aren't in the scope of the game's balance, they can certainly remain a luxury arsenal item with the huge cost behind it as it is an end-game system nobody has to do, but have the freedom to engage with if they want that next level.

This portion of your comment revolves around a perfect world where DE is capable of balancing our arsenal. 10 years of failure doesn't spell a bright future. They are trying to play catch up in 2016 while players are in 2023.

How can they not cause balance problems? Rivens are stats, and they're stats you can't get anywhere else. It just isn't mathematically possible to overcome that in a different way. A player having more stats that another player doesn't have can only make players inconsistent. That inconsistency is why the game has had so many problems with balance over the years, and is what has led to the need for bandaid mechanics like Attenuation, and is why we still don't have any content that requires even a portion of our currently-attainable levels of power.

You allude to this yourself when you talk about DE's failure to balance. Have you thought about why DE keeps failing? What are they still playing catch-up to? I think they keep failing because it's impossible to balance when you don't know where to balance against, which I think is a pretty simple concept. Do you balance to the player who bought godrolls for every weapon, or do you balance to the player without? It's a losing proposition, the choice is wrong no matter what you pick. Meanwhile DE can balance the game, just look at TNW or Kahl or the upcoming Duviri. And what don't those systems have? A ton of inconsistent player power. The player is the same in every one, and DE tightly controls what the player has access to. If they need to change something, or make something harder or easier, they can just do that. As soon as the player's broad and inconsistent range of power comes back it all falls apart.

What I'm getting at is that DE should balance the game with Rivens in mind, because like it or not they do affect balance. And in that case they would need to be more common and accessible, which has the added benefit of making them something that can be balanced around in the first place.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

What is unfair about the current situation? You can one shot Archons without Rivens, do 6x3s, and extremely fast Profit-Takers. You can go multiple hours in Steel Path without stat-sticks, power-level equipment, you can score top 100 whenever we get Operations, you can do high level Index, farm Endo in Arena, and Arbitrations. There is nothing in the game that unfairly treats players who don't have Rivens, let alone the high end of said Rivens.

I don't think it matters what you can do without it, you can always do more or better or faster with it. But it has nothing to do with what you can do with or without them, and everything to do with access. And when you look at access, there are two ways to go about it: 1) buy one and 2) DIY. The unfair part is that the one-in-hundreds chance to get a Riven for the weapon you want to play with, followed by the the one-in-thousands chance to get the stats you want to use, and finally the additional one-in-who-knows-what chance to get stats that aren't at the low end of the stat range compile together to make Riven RNG minuscule that it just isn't going to happen. You've mentioned this yourself.

7 hours ago, Voltage said:

I used Buff00n's RNG Simulator to simulate for an example Riven of CC, CD, MS -Zoom, and on average it would take ~125,000 rolls to earn these exact stats between 2500 unique unrolled Rivens.

You'll get old and die before 125,000 rolls. This just isn't on a human timescale. At best you'll find something that's got parts of what you want and then give up. Meanwhile another player can just buy it. All that effort, and it's only worth a few dollars... I don't think that's particularly fair to the person who wants to do it themselves.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

I had a poor choice of words at the end of my statement. I meant to say "why do players deserve Rivens to be as trivial as Forma, Catalysts, etc.".

Forma and potatoes aren't trivial, over time we've just accepted that a build is going to use them. That's fine, and they aren't really complained about, because getting a Forma only takes a day and you can get about a potato a week from Nightwave. Even though there's a little RNG involved, the timespan is accessible enough that we've all collectively decided that they're normal and now no one bats an eye.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Everyone deserves to progress the system if they choose to engage with it, and I've already voiced that prior. My only point is that if we detach rolls from multiple layers of RNG, the cost per riven for specific stats will be ludicrously expensive or the entire system becomes trivial and just another shallow system you can finish in a few weeks.

Except it's a system we progress through one weapon at a time. Even if we could stat-lock and Valence a perfect Riven in "a few weeks", multiply that by the hundreds of weapons in the game and that's still a very long time. If "a few weeks" is only two, which even for me sounds a bit fast, just reaching the current Riven slot cap would take 7 years. That's not trivial either.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Are you actually arguing FOR Rivens in the current market for them? 
Not surprised at all but Rivens are digital cancer.

i did suggest an additional system that could do something positive for dealing with Rivens, without negatively impacting the Revenue that the game gets from them.

do you have something better to offer? or are you too just demanding that the game make less Money just for you, without the game getting anything in return.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Soooooooooo:

- getting lucky with riven OR

- doing random things for long time to farm plat

- buying plat for real money

sounds like accomplishment?

I've lost weight by working out & limiting eating (sweets). I've changed my body and I've made my eating habits more healthy. That felt like accomplishment. Playing video games to earn virtual currency to that extent doesn't sounds healthy for me. It doesn't sounds like accomplishment. It sounds like I've fell in their trap.

Getting lucky & paying real money doesn't sounds like accomplishment at all. What's your accomplishment from pulling the lever of virtual slot machine and getting good drop? Nothing. You just get lucky. It's nice feeling but it's not accomplishment.

the game has to generate Revenue from this system, that's its reason to exist.

so, solve the dilemma of Revenue when making changes to a system, so that the game doesn't have much of a negative impact, ideally generates more Revenue - when trying to get changes to such a system.
(this is Rhetorical)

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

that's not healthy for the game, nor its Revenue.

you should, the sustainability of the game is what lets it be there for you to play.

 

 

that entirely does cater towards new Players. a great Riven being as normal as upgrading Serration benefits Players near the start of the curve, and not really anyone else.

fair to who? it's not fair to anybody. it's not fair to the game, and in numerous ways it's not fair to the Players.
if you want to remove an avenue of Monetization from the game - and one that isn't a minor one either - what are you going to replace it with? if your answer is nothing, then you're mostly just saying you don't care about the game, yourself, or any of the Playerbase.

the actual reality to that is that if you break Rivens for the game, the game will be forced to introduce something to take its place both in power, Monetization capability, and rarity. so, basically add the same thing all over again.

This seems mostly underpinned on concerns about the ingame economy and monetization? But I don't think it's as big of a deal as it gets portrayed. For one, DE doesn't make money on Rivens traded between players, they make money on plat, so they've already got their money long before a Riven trade occurs. All they're going to want is for that plat to eventually exit the economy via premium services or by being parked in an inactive account. It's best for plat to be fluid and change hands often, because the more people hold a piece of plat the more likely one of them is to want to spend it on a skin or something. As long as there's trade it'll be fine. For another, as long as Rivens are tradeable players will trade them. With stat-locking you'd see the same "god rolls" we have now, but instead of players paying the big bucks for a set of stats they would be paying for a set of good stats. Even with other systems like Deterministic Unveiling or Riven Valence it'd still be faster to buy a perfect premade Riven than to go out and make your own, so people would still do so. The economy will keep ticking just as it always has. You can see the same thing with Prime sets: even though we no longer have 1,400p+ Ember Prime sets being sold, the game's still fine. All that doom and gloom goes nowhere.

Regarding sustainability, what sustainability do Rivens provide when I don't use them? They provide zero sustainability to me because I know the odds and I'm not interested in gambling on them. If the odds were better and I could actually play the game and work on them, then I would. As it stands they're already dead to me and many others. Reviving them won't make that worse, it'll make it better.

[TARINunit9]

23 hours ago, quxier said:

So you like slot machines? I don't get it. 

Setting aside the addiction element (most gambling addicts don't like gambling) Warframe's entire gameplay loop is a hint of randomness in an hour of repetition. Randomized tilesets, randomized enemy spawns, randomized Nightwave, all just rearranging the same building blocks. You know, like a slot machine

23 hours ago, quxier said:

When I roll rivens I look for certain stats. If I have weapon that e.g. boost speed but lower status (status melee) then it's detrimental for me. It's waste for me. YMMV. However you still want certain stats and don't want others.

Not all of us view rivens as time-delayed power boosts like you do. Some people view them, developer-intended, as weird ways to shake up a weapon. Like "+damage but -projectile speed, to fill a hallways with slow-moving death mines", that kind of wacky stuff.

[taiiat]

24 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

as long as Rivens are tradeable players will trade them. With stat-locking you'd see the same "god rolls" we have now, but instead of players paying the big bucks for a set of stats they would be paying for a set of good stats.

Trading Rivens is about paying someone to perform a Service for you that you couldn't be bothered to do yourself.
because, it's very time consuming and so therefore Players are willing to pay someone else to do it rather than do it themselves.

if it's largely easy enough to get the Riven you want for your Weapons in general - Players have far less reason to consider Trading Rivens because they can easily just do it themselves.
in order for it to generate Revenue it has to be time consuming enough that there's plenty that would prefer to pay someone else to do it instead.

27 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

You can see the same thing with Prime sets: even though we no longer have 1,400p+ Ember Prime sets being sold, the game's still fine. All that doom and gloom goes nowhere.

you didn't see me having any sort of doom gloom on that - what was making the Revenue wasn't the sales of Ember or Loki or w/e for Thousands, it was all of the other Warframes selling for a few Hundred. 
the acquisition of Prime stuff was already Relics then, and that's already still plenty time consuming enough to drive Trading. Prime Resurgence is the change there, and that offered additional sources of Revenue, rather than compromising Revenue.

30 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Regarding sustainability, what sustainability do Rivens provide when I don't use them?

a few Players out of the vast majority isn't a drop in the Bucket. the current strategy works on the Playerbase at large.

[ECACA]

Lets suggest something normal.

Knowing how to use a gun, means you will have enough basic knowledge to use most any Gun of the same style/type.  yes there are differences, but as a group, a bolt action rifle of most any caliber has the same features.  Give a person <1 hour and they can deal with that gun as if they had any from before.

This goes for 90% of all weapons.  Most have standard features that should be easy to acknowledge from previous Use of other like weapons.  There should not be much of a learning Curve.

With that said.  It would be real nice if rivens would give you a Choice of weapon to place it on.  At least a selection of 4 in a group.

[L3512]

5 minutes ago, ECACA said:

Knowing how to use a gun, means you will have enough basic knowledge to use most any Gun of the same style/type.  yes there are differences, but as a group, a bolt action rifle of most any caliber has the same features.  Give a person <1 hour and they can deal with that gun as if they had any from before.

Ever see people swap from a two lug 90 degree throw action to a three lug 60 degree throw and have issues running a rifle? Failing to fully seat magazines or short stroking under pressure with a new to them rifle? Things like the complete difference in magazine release placement between traditional US and European pistols. Muscle memory is a very important factor especially under stress. You could probably make a decent argument for Tenno not undergoing this stress due to not being directly in danger and vast experience but whatever.

As to your other point a single riven capped and 0.5 dispo that could be used for multiple weapons could be a neat idea.

[L3512]

14 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

 

powercreep is ultimately a method to encourage monetization

it needs to be present, but also controlled to maintain exclusivity.

Widespread powercreep, such as proposed by OP's stat locking would be too out of control. devaluing Rivens and thus hurting monetization.

Overpowered rivens on the market is fine as long as whales are paying for them. But if Everyone has easy power, then the whales are no longer incentivized to pay. You're paying for the priviledge to get ahead of others.

so I guess to answer your question: it's good for some and bad for others. because some have money and some don't.

money is a good thing, keeps the lights on.

 

P.S. Yes, I am actually defending 'pay to win' as a good thing.

Cool and I mostly agree, WF's power progression plateaus very quickly and I agree with @Voltage that Rivens are almost the only factor that differentiates the accounts of players that have put in thousands of hours vs a newish player that has just gotten corrupted and Gal mods and weapon arcanes.

As usual though @PublikDomain makes excellent arguments from a gameplay and balance POV.