It takes almost half a year to collect all the incarnon adapters- Timegated FOMO is the wrong direction for WF

[(PSN)Unstar]

2 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Saying "A 14 week time gate doesn't actually inconvenience anyone, it's all in your head/perception" requires a decent amount of mental gymnastics that's akin to the lack of a war outside ba sing se, for those who get the reference.

I didn't say it doesn't inconvenience anyone; I said you're not being punished.  If you genuinely equate those two terms, I would encourage you to reflect on why you feel that way, because those are two significantly different concepts.

Also, the rotations are currently 7 weeks, not 14.

6 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

It is difficult to argue this is born out of a completionist mindset, when the entire point of this game is to collect stuff, and this is the featured content being upsold. 

I'm not saying you shouldn't collect stuff, I'm simply cautioning against the kind of min-maxing completionist mindset that leads someone to feel like they need to get every Incarnon Genesis ASAP.  Instead, take your time; there is literally no rush  When you're playing and something you want is available, play and earn it.  Over time, you'll eventually get them all.  Do your best to push back against any compulsion that leads you to think there is any urgency in regards to the process of collection.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Im not saying you shouldn't collect stuff, I'm simply cautioning against the kind of min-maxing completionist mindset that leads someone to feel like they need to get every Incarnon Genesis ASAP.  Instead, take your time; there is literally no rush  When you're playing and something you want is available, play and earn it.  Over time, you'll eventually get them all.  Do your best to push back against any compulsion that leads you to think there is any urgency in regards to the process of collection.

You can't rush as you have to wait almost 2 months now for the adapter you want. There is no good excuse for this and is predatory. This is exactly why paid incarnons are now a thing. The paid access is fine but not when it's handled like this.

[(XBOX)Caelum6613]

Daily login mods is also timegated FOMO. They should get rid of this too.

[trst]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

You can't rush as you have to wait almost 2 months now for the adapter you want. There is no good excuse for this and is predatory. This is exactly why paid incarnons are now a thing. The paid access is fine but not when it's handled like this.

If a week long window of time to invest all of 30-60 minutes is predatory then the entire rest of the industry is outright abusive.

Also the "excuse" for it is player retention, something WF has always struggled with. Which arguably is a "good" excuse as keeping players engaged is good for the game/DE and thus good for players as it helps to keep the game running and updated.

[SneakyErvin]

I'm really confused how people see it as a problem with the rotations and now the latest batch of incarnons purchasable for plat. Like, have you guys completely missed Prime Access, Vaulting, Unvaulting, Baro and other things that already work this way when it comes to missing the availability window and having a plat purchase option in some way?

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

27 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm really confused how people see it as a problem with the rotations and now the latest batch of incarnons purchasable for plat. Like, have you guys completely missed Prime Access, Vaulting, Unvaulting, Baro and other things that already work this way when it comes to missing the availability window and having a plat purchase option in some way?

And this somehow is a valid excuse?

3 hours ago, trst said:

If a week long window of time to invest all of 30-60 minutes is predatory then the entire rest of the industry is outright abusive.

Also the "excuse" for it is player retention, something WF has always struggled with. Which arguably is a "good" excuse as keeping players engaged is good for the game/DE and thus good for players as it helps to keep the game running and updated.

There are other ways to deal with player retention then egregious time gates.

Edited July 28, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Caelum6613 said:

Daily login mods is also timegated FOMO. They should get rid of this too.

FOMO? Dude those mods aren't going anywhere, this ain't a Fortnite battle pass you're guaranteed to get those eventually

[SneakyErvin]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

And this somehow is a valid excuse?

Yep I dont see how it isnt. You are in the end playing a free game that sells weapons and other things, and they've done so from the start to earn revenue to create new content you can enjoy for free. Incarnon doesnt take it a step further, heck, incarnons come back more regularly than any of the other things mentioned aswell and are always up for sale in addition to that if you wanna use that option for some reason.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

27 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yep I dont see how it isnt. You are in the end playing a free game that sells weapons and other things, and they've done so from the start to earn revenue to create new content you can enjoy for free. Incarnon doesnt take it a step further, heck, incarnons come back more regularly than any of the other things mentioned aswell and are always up for sale in addition to that if you wanna use that option for some reason.

"Free" is the single worst argument. Well done.

Edited July 28, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna
Cute people think f2p means being done from the kindness of developers' hearts

[trst]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

There are other ways to deal with player retention then egregious time gates.

Such as?

The only real alternatives for a game like WF would be to use different forms of artificial padding (all of which come with their own issues/complaints) or would require overhauls that the community and DE doesn't want in the first place.

The only thing that might work would be expanding PvP except that's something that failed twice already. Plus there's already loads of leaderboards in-game for that type of pseudo PvP.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

14 minutes ago, trst said:

Such as?

The only real alternatives for a game like WF would be to use different forms of artificial padding (all of which come with their own issues/complaints) or would require overhauls that the community and DE doesn't want in the first place.

The only thing that might work would be expanding PvP except that's something that failed twice already. Plus there's already loads of leaderboards in-game for that type of pseudo PvP.

Events, new player/returning rewards, meaningful content, end game content with good rewards. I'm sure there are many many more options. Egregious time gates are not uncommon but it doesnt make it the right choice.

Edited July 28, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[trst]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Events, new player/returning rewards, meaningful content, end game content with good rewards. I'm sure there are many many more options. Egregious time gates are not uncommon but it doesnt make it the right choice.

Except WF's problem with retention is that as content dries up for a player the more likely they are to leave. And the rate at which players consume said content is ridiculously fast in this game.

Events only solve that temporarily and often result in players crying "FOMO". Players who left for a long enough time already return to new content they can almost certainty jump into immediately. While "meaningful content" and "end game content with good rewards" are both WILDLY subjective things and still suffers the same problems we currently have.

Though I will agree with new player retention needing work. Especially as from what I've seen the whole Duviri as an alternative tutorial only made the entire thing far worse. But improving that doesn't stop them from eventually leaving for the same reasons most players do.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

"Free" is the single worst argument. Well done.

No it isnt. And I dont think you at all get what I mean either given your little edit assuming this has anything to do with free = kind developers. Games cost to make, games cost in order to keep them running and updated, the developers need income in some way, it is their job and this is their product. Monetizing a litteral skip is a good way to get that income in addition to cosmetics and boosters while all playable content is 100% free. Plus no one is required to spend on any of it.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Events, new player/returning rewards, meaningful content, end game content with good rewards. I'm sure there are many many more options. Egregious time gates are not uncommon but it doesnt make it the right choice.

Events, endgame content with good rewards = exactly what the SP Circuit with Incarnon Genesis Adapters are. What you want is exactly what is offered, complete with rare arcanes and resources. 

Meaningful content is the weakest, most useless argument to ever make. What is meaningful content? Will I like it? Will others like it? What is it to you?

In regards to the rotation, I don't think we should be catering to the "gimme now!!!" mindset. Warframe is a video game and games are allowed to make us wait for a time released prize. The anticipation of something is absolutely normal and is far better than to create ilan instant gratification situation, of which quickly and always dissolves the overall experience.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

21 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No it isnt. And I dont think you at all get what I mean either given your little edit assuming this has anything to do with free = kind developers. Games cost to make, games cost in order to keep them running and updated, the developers need income in some way, it is their job and this is their product. Monetizing a litteral skip is a good way to get that income in addition to cosmetics and boosters while all playable content is 100% free. Plus no one is required to spend on any of it.

It's the worst excuse and exactly why the gaming industry is in the sorry state it is. Some people want products we love to get better, clearly you do not.

17 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Events, endgame content with good rewards = exactly what the SP Circuit with Incarnon Genesis Adapters are. What you want is exactly what is offered, complete with rare arcanes and resources. 

Meaningful content is the weakest, most useless argument to ever make. What is meaningful content? Will I like it? Will others like it? What is it to you?

In regards to the rotation, I don't think we should be catering to the "gimme now!!!" mindset. Warframe is a video game and games are allowed to make us wait for a time released prize. The anticipation of something is absolutely normal and is far better than to create ilan instant gratification situation, of which quickly and always dissolves the overall experience.

Gimme now and waiting two months for the incarnon you want are not the same thing.

Edited July 28, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna
My edit was hilarious

[Kaotyke]

I'm afraid guys. I'm very afraid.

Clenchingly fear bites me rear. 

[Tsukinoki]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

meaningful content, end game content with good rewards

Before DE can add these into the game they would need to be defined and agreed upon.

Which I highly doubt that you can define what "meaningful content" and "end game content" and "good rewards" are in any meaningful or useful way.

 

Because, please tell me, what is a "good reward"?
Are arcanes good rewards?  Because some people say yes, some say no.
Are rivens good rewards?  Because some people say yes some say no.

And we could go through every single reward in the game and not come to a consensus about what a single "good reward" is.

And that is beside the fact that "good rewards" eventually turn into "trash" when you have them, because then getting the supposedly "good reward" is akin to getting nothing since you already have it....

 

And please, tell me what is "end game content"?
Because you'll find various definitions and people disagreeing quite hard with each other over that.
Is the  SP circuit "end game content"?  Some would say yes, others would say no...so which is it?

And again we can go through everything that DE comes out with and some would agree that it's end game, others would fight against that definition because it's not the exact form of end game that they want.

 

And please tell me: What is "meaningful content"?
Because this has even more vagaries than what is endgame.
I doubt any two people in this game would agree on what "meaningful content" actually means.

 

You're just spouting a bunch of empty hot air and vague statements going "DE COULD FIX THE GAME IF THEY JUST DID X  Y AND Z!!!!!!" without ever giving a thought or definition to what X, Y and Z are or how to achieve them, or what portion of the playerbase would actually agree with you on X,  Y and Z.

[SneakyErvin]

57 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

It's the worst excuse and exactly why the gaming industry is in the sorry state it is. Some people want products we love to get better, clearly you do not.

And WF is constantly improving. 

You also seem to willingly ignore that we are able to trade our way to premium currency from other players to pick up these things like everything else in the game. But please do share how they could monetize the game in a better or more fair way.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

21 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Before DE can add these into the game they would need to be defined and agreed upon.

Which I highly doubt that you can define what "meaningful content" and "end game content" and "good rewards" are in any meaningful or useful way.

 

Because, please tell me, what is a "good reward"?
Are arcanes good rewards?  Because some people say yes, some say no.
Are rivens good rewards?  Because some people say yes some say no.

And we could go through every single reward in the game and not come to a consensus about what a single "good reward" is.

And that is beside the fact that "good rewards" eventually turn into "trash" when you have them, because then getting the supposedly "good reward" is akin to getting nothing since you already have it....

 

And please, tell me what is "end game content"?
Because you'll find various definitions and people disagreeing quite hard with each other over that.
Is the  SP circuit "end game content"?  Some would say yes, others would say no...so which is it?

And again we can go through everything that DE comes out with and some would agree that it's end game, others would fight against that definition because it's not the exact form of end game that they want.

 

And please tell me: What is "meaningful content"?
Because this has even more vagaries than what is endgame.
I doubt any two people in this game would agree on what "meaningful content" actually means.

 

You're just spouting a bunch of empty hot air and vague statements going "DE COULD FIX THE GAME IF THEY JUST DID X  Y AND Z!!!!!!" without ever giving a thought or definition to what X, Y and Z are or how to achieve them, or what portion of the playerbase would actually agree with you on X,  Y and Z.

Thank you for offering absolutely nothing to this debate other then complaining about my comment. End game content, you know content that actually challenges the player and gives them something to grind for, isn't exactly a hard concept to grasp.

Edited July 28, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Thank you for offering absolutely nothing to this debate other then complaining about my comment. End game content, you know content that actually challenges the player and gives them something to grind for, isn't exactly a hard concept to grasp.

*sighs* Concept is easy to grasp. What they are saying, apparently, isn't easy for you to grasp. What is challenging, enjoyable, and considered "good end-game content" is subjective from person to person, people to people. There are groups of people who want more content like Archon Hunts, more mechanical based fights/missions like the Old Raids or akin to Destiny Raids. There are people who don't want any of that, just things to kill for extended periods of time to fuel the power fantasy with better rotations on item drops. The concept is easy to grasp, the shape of what that concept is for Warframe is not. 

Edited July 28, 2023 by (PSN)FunyFlyBoy

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)FunyFlyBoy said:

*sighs* Concept is easy to grasp. What they are saying, apparently, isn't easy for you to grasp. What is challenging, enjoyable, and considered "good end-game content" is subjective from person to person, people to people. There are groups of people who want more content like Archon Hunts, more mechanical based fights/missions like the Old Raids or akin to Destiny Raids. There are people who don't want any of that, just things to kill for extended periods of time to fuel the power fantasy with better rotations on item drops. The concept is easy to grasp, the shape of what that concept is for Warframe is not. 

End game content challenges the player and the gear you have earned up to that point. This is true for most games and mmos and it is not rocket science. Other mmos have found solutions, Warframe has not. Anyways, we are used to this. It was just a suggestion for player retention.

Edited July 28, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[(PSN)Unstar]

13 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

You can't rush as you have to wait almost 2 months now for the adapter you want. There is no good excuse for this and is predatory.

With a 7 week rotation, at most you need to wait 6 weeks for the adapter you want.  While I'll agree that this system is a bit clunky and could be improved, I'm not seeing how it's predatory.  Could you explain how you came to that conclusion?

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

End game content challenges the player and the gear you have earned up to that point. This is true for most games and mmos and it is not rocket science. Other mmos have found solutions, Warframe has not. Anyways, we are used to this. It was just a suggestion for player retention.

You're still not....ok.

Warframe's end game is actually quite challenging. It is so challenging that content creators have to hold players hands to get them past eidolons, profit taker, Mot, arbi, ESO, The New War, the Archons, SP and now SP Circuit. If hands need to be held for that many parts of the game, then the game is challenging. Just because the forums can SAY the game is easy, does not offer proof that it actually is. Of course we can SAY anything just to say it. 

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

26 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

You're still not....ok.

Warframe's end game is actually quite challenging. It is so challenging that content creators have to hold players hands to get them past eidolons, profit taker, Mot, arbi, ESO, The New War, the Archons, SP and now SP Circuit. If hands need to be held for that many parts of the game, then the game is challenging. Just because the forums can SAY the game is easy, does not offer proof that it actually is. Of course we can SAY anything just to say it. 

This has to be a joke. What you are "just saying" is absolutely a personal skill issue and not the general consensus.

47 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

With a 7 week rotation, at most you need to wait 6 weeks for the adapter you want.  While I'll agree that this system is a bit clunky and could be improved, I'm not seeing how it's predatory.  Could you explain how you came to that conclusion?

7 weeks if you can't play that week. Putting in a 7 week time gate then offering a paid solution is predatory. On their own, it's not a big deal but the time gate was put in place sell the incarnons. The thing is, I don't even have an issue with it, but seeing people defend these practices is asinine and shows a complete lack of unbiased criticism.

Edited July 28, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna
Man called mot challenging endgame

[PR1D3]

Honestly, why not just make a Generic Adapter? You still make it drop 2 a week, on rank 5 and 10, but you could just use it on any of the candidate weapons. Remove the whole week rotation aspect out of the game. Make it where they can just throw new Incarnons in the pool and rotation be damned. Be easier for everyone and still somewhat maintains that stop gap that they would want. No FOMO, no burn out. Yeah you're at 2 but you can prioritize what you want in the beginning and if you're going to go for them all you're still free to pick and choose which ones you do first. Completionists will still have to spend time but at least the journey is will be easier and better when they can prioritize their favorites. Others can get theirs, be done or become invested by committing some effort in it.