The Seven Crimes of Kullervo: Hotfix 33.5.5

[CxLL]

9 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

New End User License Agreement (EULA) 

Nice 😎

[0_The_F00l]

8 hours ago, ShurikenMeDaddy said:

What abusive tactics are you talking about? Explain them to me please.

And logically speaking the one thats lasting longer is stronger right? Also shields regenerate by themselves and overguard doesnt which is why perma casting 2 with Kullervo is boring garbage.

Keeping max shields low with a dragon key and having negative energy efficiency to max shields on casting abilities using augur mods and needing to run a very specific build would be abusive.

And yes the one that lasts longer is stronger , but you raised the point of it being boring not of it being stronger.

If you don't use full shield gate then 0.5s invulnerability for overguard break is better than 0.3s  but if you do use max shield (by any means) that would be better if you can keep it up and recast after 1.3s.

[Styx_Prime]

Nice 👍

[Blackghostkav]

There's a weird bug about arcane trade... they appear like mods and can't be traded!

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 13 horas, [DE]Megan dijo:

Adding a 0.5 second Invulnerability window to Kullervo once Overguard is depleted. 

This it going to affect the Frost  Icy Avalanche augment?

[CoffeeElemental]

Can you add respawning ammo crates in the Undercroft please? Like those that are in the Orowyrm arena.

[Irmine_Lancefall]

shame on players for crying a hotfix on kullervo, it was really good before this for experimented players :  don't use shieldgating

now let's see only team of kullervo everywhere

WORST META!!

Edited July 7, 2023 by malkiavien

[Nekomian]

15 hours ago, Rathalio said:

Do we have a list somewhere that tells us what's authorized or not? Because it feels like it implies such a list exists.
In short is disallows any third party program that interacts with the game if they are collecting any kind of data from it. For instance, I'm thinking about people using the popular AlecaFrame app which is very popular. And maybe any other comparable projects that could emerge.

Also then it also means that now you are clearly stating that apps that change colours/lighting/contrast etc are fine since they do not collect information which is a great clarification as it had always been a gray area as well.

The terms state "third-party programs that intercept, emulate, or redirect any communication between the Services and us or that collect information about the Game"; if this app isn't intercepting network calls, attempting to emulate or insert artificial ones, or redirecting / "packet sniffing" in an intrusive manner to intentionally collect info or reverse engineer how network calls are sent, then it likely falls into DE's previous stance about third party apps or sites (I'll link that below).

There's no "list" of programs that do this because it's the method and intent that matters here - having a program use and analyze a screen capture of the game to help assist with additional information, or even make authorized calls to their public facing world state API, both seem perfectly fine as they're not attempting to tamper with game memory or interact with the game as a service (automating in-game actions) in any way, they just provide auxiliary info. One could just as easily pull up the Wiki on a separate monitor or make their own timers for foundry items, or catalog their inventories regardless (I've seen some Tenno have giant spreadsheets of all their items actually).

14 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Since we can't ask questions directly on the EULA announcement:

Does this apply to third party tools like warframe.market or the Wikia? These are not the same as the "such as" list, but like with the rest of the EULA this is very broad and ambiguous. Is this based on specific legalese around the word "offerings" as in "paid offerings"? Others are asking about tools like AlecaFrame. Do macros count as "any other automated control"?

This seems like an unnecessary stance towards VPNs. Previously the intent behind this kind of language was "no jumping out of your region to get better deals", which is understandable, but like with c. this is overly broad and as written any player using a VPN for any reason can be banned? Can you clarify if players are or are not allowed to use VPNs?

These are mainly stated as such to avoid situations of ban evasion & evasion of local laws that may have sanctions that prevent sale of digital goods, as well as services that automate or "lease out" account leveling and such (or bots). Like mentioned above, third party software is always use at your own risk, but for things like WFM it's basically the same as just looking for trades on forums or in a discord server but more streamlined. It doesn't paste in messages into the game from your clipboard, and doesn't automate any portion of trading (as you still have to perform the communication and trade yourself).

The VPN language is quite vague, but again I presume it's meant to prevent evasion of local laws or bans. Cloud gaming services act very similar to a VPN to the game's perspective (they route through specific servers and use shared IP pools for users) and there are users who may travel frequently that "appear to be location switching" as well, so this would be difficult to enforce. It may also cover certain conditions like a user attempting to "disconnect" or "disallow" certain regions or IPs from connecting to them, as that interferes with online / network play functionality, but that's not unique to VPNs.

They've made it clear many times though that just using a VPN in and of itself is fine (as many people do daily for various reasons), as it's just a network location to route to and should not interfere with any parts of the service significantly or maliciously (to be clear, if it's just used for normal gameplay and not with the intent to bypass local laws or restrictions); it's been a recommended solution for misbehaving or misconfigured ISP routes as well, since they're notoriously slow at fixing backend issues (Spectrum took like 6 months and 10 technician calls and escalations to fix one I was having with Twitch):

7 hours ago, St0rmW0lf said:

My eyes glazed over trying to read that. Honestly, I like reading, but the wording of legal agreements always make me feel like I need a lawyer to look things over before I agree to anything. Never mind the fact that all legal agreements stick to the bright Light Theme and does not offer a Dark Theme that's easy on the eyes.

Should I just uninstall Warframe and delete my account?

@St0rmW0lf It's mostly just standard practice to cover their bases in the event of some issues (i.e. waiving your right to join a class action suit and agreeing to settle via arbitration in the US, agreeing to app store & platform guidelines, complying to local laws in particular Gov'ts, etc.). Honestly, just use common sense while gaming and/or on the internet and you'll be fine.

[Rathalio]

@Naroxas44 I know their previous stance on third-party programs. Although the point here is that they changed their EULA formulation about them quite a bit which was expected because their previous stance was a non-answer ("use at your own risk"). I know there was no list of authorized apps before, but the new formulation rather implied the existence of a whitelist. Because now the stance is not "use at your own risk" anymore. It is "any unauthorized if it uses any kind of game data". And "any unauthorized" to me clearly means "if they didn't tell otherwise". They separated their stance in two categories. Which clears up some accessibility and graphic apps but bans most of the other utility apps. That's no more "use at your own risk" here.

[Nekomian]

5 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

Because now the stance is not "use at your own risk" anymore. It is "any unauthorized if it uses any kind of game data".

It's not though. Using "game data" and attempting to manipulate the game (i.e. reverse engineer or emulate / inject artificial packets) are two separate things. Their previous stance I posted in regards to third party app usage still applies. No apps should be "using game data" in a way that would violate memory integrity or intercept game calls, and I explained some examples that are perfectly fine (like screen captures, which "uses" the data on screen generated by the game in its own way, but does not interact with the game). It's no different from taking a print screen or F6 screencap the game has built-in to then process separately (whether that be manually by hand in a spreadsheet or via a text analysis tool).

I think you might be getting caught up on the "or that collect information about the Game" portion; I do not think this means "any info that the game presents", as you could literally call Excel or Notepad now as "violations" if you type game info into it, as that's "information about the Game" / "game data" in that context. Given the full context of the sentence, it definitely reads to me like it's specifically referring to packet sniffing or info about how the game communicates with its internal services / processes, i.e. "information about the Game (engine and its internal services)".

The previous language is extremely similar in this regard:

• h. use any unauthorized third-party software that intercepts, “mines”, or otherwise collects information from, within or through the Software or Service, including without limitation, any software that reads areas of RAM used by the Software to store information about a character, in-game items or the Software environment

If the app you mentioned is directly reading values from memory or intercepting network calls the game engine makes to servers to retrieve info for profiles, then it would be in violation of the EULA, yes. If it's not, then the latest post on third party tool usage should apply to it.

[Kaldo]

Does Rauta still have that weird pause period after firing that disables melee attacks and instead queues them? It makes it really unsatisfying to use it in combination with melee and switching between them is kinda the point, right?

[Morteno]

18 hours ago, THeMooN85 said:

Nice joke :D

You may think it a clever jest, unfortunately they are serious. More than most of you imagine.

Very recently, a canadian "loose-cannon" judge, decided that an emoticon response in a phone text message is contractual agreement (in the legally binding sense).
Yes, let that sink in. An emoticon. In a phone text message (which easily spoofed and insecure btw). Not placed on a contract.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-farmer-ordered-to-pay-after-judge-says-thumbs-up-emoji-amounts-to/
You should be paying a lot of attention to that, since D.E. formally is a Canadian company.

Naturally I expect this thing to be appealed and overruled, for the sheer principal nature of it. Besides the horrifying consequences of such a ruling, it is broadly speaking not for the judge to redefine what a contract is or constitues a agreement to it. That is a matter for the legislative body (=government). Frankly, if I were the minister of justice or whatever they call it in canada, I'd fire the fool of a judge immediately and have him banned from working as judge or lawyer.
For your education, this is just a absurd extension of the principles in the 'verbal agreement is as good as a signature' jurisdictions. A principle that is in itself abhorrent - any crooked ass could claim you gave verbal agreement to whatever and sue on that basis (and conversely anyone could deny everything) - and it is with good reason that this is not the way contracts work in most of the world.

Until then, beware of sending any 'thumbs up' or other emoticon the might be construed as 'affirmative' to anyone who might be canadian.

18 hours ago, genuvine said:

I dont understand the EULA.

I'm a gamer not a lawyer, attorney or solicitor.

a easy language text box/part will help.

Seems like we will all need lawyers soon, the way the canadians, and generally the TPtB worldwide, are going.
Just because we do not reside there, will not mean that they will not try to apply their law to us anyway.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Morteno
few typos, nothing major.

[Morteno]

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Since we can't ask questions directly on the EULA announcement:

Does this apply to third party tools like warframe.market or the Wikia? These are not the same as the "such as" list, but like with the rest of the EULA this is very broad and ambiguous. Is this based on specific legalese around the word "offerings" as in "paid offerings"? Others are asking about tools like AlecaFrame. Do macros count as "any other automated control"?

I think this is quite obviously going to be a lost battle for you, and I have zero expectation that dataminers will (or should) stop, but how does this apply to extracting files for personal use? IE if I'm hypothetically going to make and 3D print a neat Khora model using assets extracted from the game?

This seems like an unnecessary stance towards VPNs. Previously the intent behind this kind of language was "no jumping out of your region to get better deals", which is understandable, but like with c. this is overly broad and as written any player using a VPN for any reason can be banned? Can you clarify if players are or are not allowed to use VPNs?

So we can't post videos of bugs or third party programs? TheKengineer's video about AlecaFrame violates the EULA? Brozime's video about the Soma Prime Incarnon's bugs violate the EULA? Is this the intent?

lol, how strictly are you enforcing this? Because this is kind of an insane requirement.

These things can no longer safely be discussed there. I've previously posted screenshots and even a video clip, of visual defects. Clearly that is also no longer allowed. It would certainly not be wise to do it anyway and risk getting "disappeared".
You should really beware of the rubberbanded wording: 'or that, in our discretion, may damage the value, goodwill, or reputation of us, our affiliates, our products, Content, or brands. '

Even giving a clear memed description of how far that could be stretched, could risk falling foul of such a rule. It can essentially be stretched to eliminate all criticism, venting or pointing out of error.

I've been absent from forum for a long time but that is also due to treatment for high blood pressure, the medications having some negative consequences on my abilities to type without a lot or errors and mixing up similar words. Thought is clear enough, but somewhere between that and what arrives on the keyboard, something is working a lot worse.
Something with cognitive sideffects from electrolyte imbalances and lowering of bloodflow due to the medication, until the body adjust to a new equilibrium.

This new eula just closes the door completely to the majority of useful feedback, with criticism and pointing out problems usually being the most useful, as it won't be allowed. I'd like to point out the similarities to certain countries and their regimes that take the old saying "of you have nothing nice to to say, don't say anything" to the terminal extremes, but that would also be at risk.

[Bob_IIII]

18 hours ago, Megazawr said:

Any fixes towards host migration making you unable to extract from duviri(thus losing kullervo's bane)?
Or other older bugs, like exalted weapons being unmodded in duviri?
Or mag's 4 skill locking her abilities and melee?(also mesa, but idk how to reproduce that)
Or certain melee classes having bad heavy attack hitbox(nikanas and gunblades), which causes Kullervo's 1st skill to miss enemies quite often
Or the goddamn loss of function bug (the moonwalk caused by desync)
Or Ash's 4th skill showing wrong damage numbers?
Or not being able to send a request to support on https://support.warframe.com/hc/en-us?

Idk if that's what you are talking about, but duviri uses the corresponding weapon loadout to the warframe. So first frame build uses first weapon one etc. Fill every slot.

[OP-R8R]

SP still not fixed?

[Rathalio]

2 hours ago, Naroxas44 said:

It's not though. Using "game data" and attempting to manipulate the game (i.e. reverse engineer or emulate / inject artificial packets) are two separate things. Their previous stance I posted in regards to third party app usage still applies. No apps should be "using game data" in a way that would violate memory integrity or intercept game calls, and I explained some examples that are perfectly fine (like screen captures, which "uses" the data on screen generated by the game in its own way, but does not interact with the game). It's no different from taking a print screen or F6 screencap the game has built-in to then process separately (whether that be manually by hand in a spreadsheet or via a text analysis tool).

You seem to be confusing some stuff though. There is a difference between using the data the games dispatch and provides you, such as the video output to your display system or the data given away to the steam API to track achievements, steam inventory and shop redirections for example. On the other hand trying to access some data that the game wants to keep for itself such as variables in live memory and network packets etc is a completely different thing. And I thought it was obvious that I was referring to the second case. I'm not a lawyer I used simple terms to sum up the idea.

I know that apps that are able to read your inventory if they don't rely on scrapping data from your active game video feed are accessing data that are supposed to be protected and are not given away by the game as it doesn't have an API for that. And in order to develop them data mining and mainly reverse engineering often came in play to find out how to get this data (i.e. developing such apps is already against the EULA). Even if it's meant to be read only by design in most of the case, it's still a violation. And in their new EULA they make no distinction between apps that are willing to be simply read only and apps that are injecting data to the game. And with the formulation it implies they keep it for themselves to judge whether an app is legit or not. So here is the implication that some kind of whitelist exists.

[Nekomian]

22 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

On the other hand trying to access some data that the game wants to keep for itself such as variables in live memory and network packets etc is a completely different thing. And I thought it was obvious that I was referring to the second case.

23 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

Even if it's meant to be read only by design in most of the case, it's still a violation. And in their new EULA they make no distinction between apps that are willing to be simply read only and apps that are injecting data to the game.

I'm a bit confused then, because this has always been the case even in the previous EULA, it's not unique to this rewrite. Even if the app is read only, it has always been a violation because it should not read or intercept any data directly from the game (would be considered tampering). No apps should be doing this, which is why I gave the example I did with screenshots / text parsing as that was what I recall some did instead to be compliant with the previous (and still current) EULA.

There should be no whitelist because it's the method that's prohibited, not the app; if an "approved" app suddenly starting doing things with memory it shouldn't then that would cause issues, so the detection for this probably does not care what app causes violations and blanketly prohibits the interactions instead. It's why there are sometimes false positives that support has to go in and manually handle, and then tell the user to not run said software (which is usually some poorly written OEM software tbh) as it may cause another conflict again, until the app dev resolves it.

[Rathalio]

1 hour ago, Naroxas44 said:

There should be no whitelist because it's the method that's prohibited, not the app; if an "approved" app suddenly starting doing things with memory it shouldn't then that would cause issues, so the detection for this probably does not care what app causes violations and blanketly prohibits the interactions instead. It's why there are sometimes false positives that support has to go in and manually handle, and then tell the user to not run said software (which is usually some poorly written OEM software tbh) as it may cause another conflict again, until the app dev resolves it.

The truth is for example, Overwolf & Alecaframe worked with DE at some point to make sure what they were doing was ok. Although for sure Alecaframe reads data from the game that clearly is a violation of the EULA if not authorized specifically by DE for this app. And so in a way they got whitelisted. Even though the app is still in a gray area tbh. And I think this needs to be clarified for everyone's safety.

Also, I don't have the history of the EULA precisely on my hand, maybe this exact part didn't change, but since they are updating stuff this section I think it was a good occasion to ask for clarifications.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Rathalio

[Qriist]

5 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

The truth is for example, Overwolf & Alecaframe worked with DE at some point to make sure what they were doing was ok. 

Yes, I recall one of the staff making a short forum reply to that effect about Alecaframe specifically. I'm currently on mobile and can't (be bothered to) find the post, sorry. 

[Nekomian]

46 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

Although for sure Alecaframe reads data from the game that clearly is a violation of the EULA if not authorized specifically by DE for this app. And so in a way they got whitelisted.

Do you have any statement where they explicitly state it was "whitelisted"? The only reference I've ever seen about this app was in the "Third Party & You" post, which had an edit:

On 2022-08-23 at 11:07 AM, [DE]Dudley said:

8/23/2022
As of more recently, we’re aware of recent conversations around Overwolf and their apps. The above also applies to those apps (and all other third-party software). We would like to make it clear that our involvement with Overwolf is simply that we’ve had conversations to ensure that Warframe’s EULA and ToS are not being breached in any way.

This just means they made sure they weren't breaching EULA or ToS, this isn't endorsement or "authorization by DE" or "adding to an allow list", and I wouldn't treat it as such. It also indicates that the app isn't reading data in a way that would violate the EULA, past or present. AFAIK the most any of these apps would do is read the EE log (which isn't reliable since it's literally intended for dev troubleshooting not user use, and can add or remove stuff between builds) or use the method I described above with screenshot / text parsing. Feel free to correct me or add citations for stuff if you'd like.

[Megazawr]

3 hours ago, Bob_IIII said:

Fill every slot.

I already said it before in another thread. Many people don't know how it works, which results in my random teammates having no mods on regulators or dex pixia. And for me, I don't want to change the order of my slots, because I'll have to change it on normal missions every time I equip my titania.

[Rathalio]

58 minutes ago, Naroxas44 said:

This just means they made sure they weren't breaching EULA or ToS, this isn't endorsement or "authorization by DE" or "adding to an allow list", and I wouldn't treat it as such.

I mean their activity by itself was breaching the EULA as is since there is no API whatsoever. So when they say that, I read: "we made sure that they are not abusing our game with their apps; see nothing wrong -> DE approved"

And the whole "whitelist" idea is just something that sounds implied with their formulation and statements about things. I don't know if it exists or not. As I said in my first post, it is just heavily implied. Which is why I am questioning it in the first place. And I'm convinced it would be great to have clarifications on the matter.

[PublikDomain]

7 hours ago, Naroxas44 said:

These are mainly stated as such to avoid situations of ban evasion & evasion of local laws that may have sanctions that prevent sale of digital goods, as well as services that automate or "lease out" account leveling and such (or bots). Like mentioned above, third party software is always use at your own risk, but for things like WFM it's basically the same as just looking for trades on forums or in a discord server but more streamlined. It doesn't paste in messages into the game from your clipboard, and doesn't automate any portion of trading (as you still have to perform the communication and trade yourself).

If we're being generous, yes. But if we're following the letter of the EULA, we're not allowed to "use, or provide ancillary offerings to anyone, that are not offered within the Services by us". DE does not offer a wiki. DE does not offer a trade website (outside of China). DE does not offer a lot of things. They need to be clear about this. Likewise:

7 hours ago, Naroxas44 said:

The VPN language is quite vague, but again I presume it's meant to prevent evasion of local laws or bans. Cloud gaming services act very similar to a VPN to the game's perspective (they route through specific servers and use shared IP pools for users) and there are users who may travel frequently that "appear to be location switching" as well, so this would be difficult to enforce. It may also cover certain conditions like a user attempting to "disconnect" or "disallow" certain regions or IPs from connecting to them, as that interferes with online / network play functionality, but that's not unique to VPNs.

They've made it clear many times though that just using a VPN in and of itself is fine (as many people do daily for various reasons), as it's just a network location to route to and should not interfere with any parts of the service significantly or maliciously (to be clear, if it's just used for normal gameplay and not with the intent to bypass local laws or restrictions); it's been a recommended solution for misbehaving or misconfigured ISP routes as well, since they're notoriously slow at fixing backend issues (Spectrum took like 6 months and 10 technician calls and escalations to fix one I was having with Twitch):

By the letter of the EULA, they are not allowing the "use IP proxying or other methods to disguise the place of your residence, whether to circumvent geographical restrictions on the Services or for any other purpose". If this was only about evading region restrictions, and if using VPNs for normal gameplay is fine, then they should say so.

They should be clear about the terms they are expecting us to abide by. It doesn't matter how generously you interpret these terms when they're so vague.

[Nekomian]

50 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

I mean their activity by itself was breaching the EULA as is since there is no API whatsoever. So when they say that, I read: "we made sure that they are not abusing our game with their apps; see nothing wrong -> DE approved"

What? There's a ton of other ways to code something that doesn't breach a EULA or require the use of an API and still provides usability. All DE did was look at the app and go "OK, this is fine, it does not violate our EULA" in case it was, and determined that it wasn't. I don't get how you're reaching to the conclusion that it was, unless you have some info that I'm not aware of. I've tried to present everything I've seen very clearly and cite it.

23 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

following the letter of the EULA, we're not allowed to "use, or provide ancillary offerings to anyone, that are not offered within the Services by us"

This is specifically in regards to accounts offerings or services, like third party plat sites, trades for promises, or paying for leveling / progression. Unless you consider a platform that lets you set up trades off site as an "offering", which would now include every form of communication as a violation of the EULA (Telegram groups, Discord servers, etc.) since it's "not offered within the service", the context here is important. All the external sites provide is user info which may or may not be accurate; it's not offering anyone anything or promising anything. I don't think the language needs to be so explicit when it's interpreted and applied by contextualization.

33 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

By the letter of the EULA, they are not allowing the "use IP proxying or other methods to disguise the place of your residence, whether to circumvent geographical restrictions on the Services or for any other purpose". If this was only about evading region restrictions, and if using VPNs for normal gameplay is fine, then they should say so.

They should be clear about the terms they are expecting us to abide by. It doesn't matter how generously you interpret these terms when they're so vague.

I feel like a broken record at this point, but legal language is intentionally wide reaching and vague to protect a company and their IP. The previous EULA read like this, the current one does, and 100s of other services have the exact same thing. If it was interpreted literally or explicitly in this case, even just using a cloud gaming service would be a violation since it's using an IP proxy; they're reasonably not going to list out every scenario in a document like this. Being succinct is nice, but you'll always continually have users going "wait, but what about this" and "oh, this isn't included so it must be allowed".

The TL;DR I'm just going to keep giving is if you play the game normally, abide by laws, don't attempt to harass or cheat or do anything intentionally malicious, you're probably fine.

[PublikDomain]

22 minutes ago, Naroxas44 said:

The TL;DR I'm just going to keep giving is if you play the game normally, abide by laws, don't attempt to harass or cheat or do anything intentionally malicious, you're probably fine.

Of course, but I don't think people want to gamble their accounts on a "probably". If there are things that are allowed it should be said. Doing so would only clear up confusion instead of vague "maybe we'll ban you lol".