Automatic Trading

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

12 minutes ago, trst said:

An AH would already destroy the value of items, tacking on more restrictions is just going to make a bad problem worse.

Or maybe we need fair, set prices.

Edited August 5, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[trst]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Yes, and?

And that's bad for players and DE?

Prices bottoming out means it's harder for players to earn plat and making things even more accessible via trade pushes players towards "finishing" the game faster which is bad when DE already struggles with player retention. And even if more players are pushed into buying plat outright it's still bad for DE with all the bad sentiment that'll create.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Or maybe we need fair, set prices.

It's not an opinion, it's basic economics. And including a plat tax on top of that would make things worse as it's just another layer of devaluing items.

And a fixed value system would create its own problems if players disagreed, which they would, with the value things were set at. But that's also getting into an entirely different topic from AH systems.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

32 minutes ago, trst said:

And that's bad for players and DE?

Prices bottoming out means it's harder for players to earn plat and making things even more accessible via trade pushes players towards "finishing" the game faster which is bad when DE already struggles with player retention. And even if more players are pushed into buying plat outright it's still bad for DE with all the bad sentiment that'll create.

It's not an opinion, it's basic economics. And including a plat tax on top of that would make things worse as it's just another layer of devaluing items.

And a fixed value system would create its own problems if players disagreed, which they would, with the value things were set at. But that's also getting into an entirely different topic from AH systems.

Your idea of basic economics is flawed then sorry to say.

[Hexerin]

1 hour ago, trst said:

And that's bad for players and DE? Prices bottoming out means it's harder for players to earn plat and making things even more accessible via trade pushes players towards "finishing" the game faster which is bad when DE already struggles with player retention. And even if more players are pushed into buying plat outright it's still bad for DE with all the bad sentiment that'll create.

Thousands of other games over multiple decades have auction houses / market boards / whatever, and they all do just fine.

But Warframe will absolutely suffer from it, yup.

[0_The_F00l]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Why would anyone want their hard earned platinum taken away by tax? What happens if the tax makes you negative?

People pay actually money so why would I even engage with the system if I know a bunch of my plat is gonna disappear?

What a nonsensical query , it's for the convenience of selling things when away from your system or already engaged in an activity that you pay the tax. Your words sound like that of a person that doesn't understand the value of time.

You also do realise that plat disappears if you buy in game items or perform trades right ? And platinum exists exactly for convenience (and fashion ). The difference is that part of it now goes back to DE creating an effective sink.

And I am not forcing you or anyone to exclusively engage with this. 

Direct P2P trades can still exist if you don't wish to pay the tax, as that can be done without use of platinum.

The auction house is for those that can't be glued to their screens 24/7 and would like to offload their items in the downtime. 

There cannot be negative plat as part of the trade , it's part of the maths, buyer sees the final price , he can't buy the item if he has less than sufficient plat.

But if you mean negative plat due to credit card reversals, that issue exists even today but with AH there can be a better tracking if it , and if DE wants they can put in additional checks against accounts making purchases.

5 hours ago, trst said:

Adding in a tax just makes the inevitable problems worse. Instead of prices getting bottomed out to some minimum it'd then be at a minimum and you're receiving even less than that. And limiting slots doesn't do a whole lot when you're dealing with tens of thousands of players now being able to put their items up for sale.

Plus such a system ends up encouraging players to establish alt accounts to expand their sale slots. It'd also be harder for DE to catch when someone could just funnel plat off an account by listing overpriced items. As buying a specific item off an Auction House leaves an immense amount of plausible deniability than manually inviting someone to your dojo does.

You say that as if it doesn't already happen. None of what you said is against AH specifically and are just issues with trading premium currency in general. And again , thanks to the tax even if you do that there will always be a bit of a platinum being sunk which encourages more purchases as inflation goes down.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I'd love this, and really really wish this was something Warframe had. 

That being said... it sounds too convenient. Also, I acknowledge I have very little experience and knowledge with the more in depth economics around video game FTP and GAAS systems, how they operate, Warframe specifically, etc so there is a Chesterton's Fence in the way. Like Prime Parts for example, have multiple functions, they exist for a player themselves to build, and to potentially trade, but also Ducat values. Having to trade with another player in real time, brings about certain pros, but also cons. Those cons, however, can have pros... As in it can influence how and why trades occur in a larger context. If it was made more convenient for people to offset their Prime items and people to find what Prime items they need (or just things that can be traded in general), this would be convenient, and people, certain people would likely be able to offhand certain items far more conveniently, and get items they need far more conveniently, but that may also influence and change many other dynamics that are too many to go into. Not necessarily inherently negative, just... potentially complicated. 

To put it another way, there are a few other "changes of convenience" that would benefit some players, but maybe not all. For example, if Arcane Energise become as easy to get as Forma in Relics? Arcane Energise value would drop dramatically, which would be convenient for players who don't have Arcane Energise and also don't want to spend the Plat for it. However all the players who buy Arcane Energise in small quantities, and farm them from Eidolons.... well, wouldn't be great for them. If every single mission dropped a built Forma, as a reward, then DE would feel the impact, as Forma is one of the items people use a decent amount of Plat to purchase. 

We do occasionally get moments, much like this week, where something does become more convenient, like say Wolf Sledge farming, or like we did with Scarlett Spear, Orphix Venom, Plague Star etc but they don't tend to be permanent. 

So I believe its highly unlikely we would ever get an Auction House, unless... Someone, or a group within DE or working for DE, end up with very very solid, credible, researched data, that shows that they would somehow financially benefit from Warframe having an Auction house, not just short term but long term, and enough to cover the risks involved, otherwise, its probably just better and less risky to remain as is, around this particular topic. 

[trst]

2 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Thousands of other games over multiple decades have auction houses / market boards / whatever, and they all do just fine.

But Warframe will absolutely suffer from it, yup.

Because most games have multiple systems that facilitate a proper economy.

Things like inventory spaces being limited thus supplies are always limited. Ongoing demand for goods is created through mandatory consumables. Having items with exceptionally high rarity to the point that most players will never see such things drop themselves. Further inflate rarities by using randomly generated stats. Employ systems that prevent any one player from being able to produce all required items on their own. Require materials in a quantity that's unreasonable for a single player to generate it on their own. Balance currencies in a way that makes trade the best way to obtain it. And/or employ gameplay loops where some or all of these systems are repeated every major update.

Meanwhile Warframe lacks ALL of these systems and has an economy that's only propped up by the artificial scarcity created by how inconvenient trading is. The only exception is Rivens due to the rarity of specific rolls, the number of limitations they have, and how their entire loop repeats with every new weapon.

[Merrcenary]

i would agree for ah only if you will be able to trade rivens and liches through it. and nothing else

[Waeleto]

I don't get why are people to against this, are you guys enjoying sitting in dojo while wfm is open waiting for buyers to invite them as soon as possible so they don't move on to the next seller ? or do you enjoy the trade chat that is full of scammers and INSANE prices ? i'm convinced at this point that people who don't like this idea are either part of the scammers in trade chat or just a lot of free time for wfm

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

2 hours ago, Waeleto said:

I don't get why are people to against this, are you guys enjoying sitting in dojo while wfm is open waiting for buyers to invite them as soon as possible so they don't move on to the next seller ? or do you enjoy the trade chat that is full of scammers and INSANE prices ? i'm convinced at this point that people who don't like this idea are either part of the scammers in trade chat or just a lot of free time for wfm

There are people who do not know any better and there are people who do not want the game to change for the better to attract new players. This game has been in stagnation (not downfall or declining) for years and many Warframe vets are ok with that and it's unhealthy.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

2 hours ago, Waeleto said:

I don't get why are people to against this, are you guys enjoying sitting in dojo while wfm is open waiting for buyers to invite them as soon as possible so they don't move on to the next seller ? or do you enjoy the trade chat that is full of scammers and INSANE prices ? i'm convinced at this point that people who don't like this idea are either part of the scammers in trade chat or just a lot of free time for wfm

I honestly prefer to sell my normal stuff through Warframe Market instead of spamming TC. I just play and forget about it. I'll usually get several messages a day to sell something without my input, which is nice. On the other hand, I can't do the same with Rivens because Warframe Market lacks a WTB option, and neither of the third party tools works for Rivens on PS. I never bought a Riven on any of them, either because the selection is extremely small or you can't get in touch with the seller. I also never sold any Rivens there even if I have a really low price on the hot stuff.

If a possible auction house would solve this and allow me to passively sell and buy Rivens on console, I'm all for it.

[Pakaku]

On 2023-08-04 at 3:08 PM, PublikDomain said:

For everyone before and after me saying "it'll never happen". It literally is.

Mostly because DE has always been stubborn, and we're all just jaded. If things change and this gets added, then that would be a pleasant surprise, but not something I would normally hold my breath for

[PublikDomain]

13 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Mostly because DE has always been stubborn, and we're all just jaded. If things change and this gets added, then that would be a pleasant surprise, but not something I would normally hold my breath for

idk, seems to go a little bit beyond just being jaded. A lot of the time it doesn't feel like a "we will never get it" and instead feels like a "we should never get it". There are people actively opposed who will concoct all sorts of reasons an AH shouldn't be added or trade shouldn't be improved in any way.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

2 hours ago, Waeleto said:

I don't get why are people to against this,

 

As far as I can tell, there aren't many people who are actually against this, its just a matter of understanding why and how things get implemented or don't. Consider if we went back 30 years to that generation of gamers and tried to explain Warframes pricing to them. Most of that generation of gamers would wonder why any of us play Warframe at all. 

In this thread, some people will bring up other games, and there could be accuracy in their points and comparisons. In an alternative reality, DE may have implemented an auction house and seen record profit, or maybe not. Such things tend to involve more complications and intricacies, more than most average players will be willing to even understand let alone know. Talk is cheap, random people will find it easy to. insist that multimillion dollar company should just do the thing they personally think is best otherwise their service or product will fail. I have seen people claim that Warframe will die if it didn't create more Kavat armours, like 3 tears ago... 

Forums are great too, sometimes I need to Google something about Warframe, and will find threads from 7 or 8 years ago, with players insisting that Warframe will die unless they do X... and Warframe didn't and yet... You also take those same random people, and give them suggestions about stuff they can personally do to improve their career/service and a lot of them suddenly get defensive. "I know my own line of work and career, you don't, why should I listen to you?"

This is why even though I am personally for this idea, and wish something like it was available, I also know that I don't know enough to know whether its feasible, realistic or of value to DE. Its also not a deal breaker for me as far as being a consumer. I really dislike Trade Chat, and WF Market is... ehh. I tend to sell cheap so I can sell fast, I'd be the type that would very much benefit from such a system being introduced, more than most. but also... I have brought Prime Access before and I probably will again. I find it easier and more pleasant to make real money working, then making Plat via trading and selling. So people have to account for all sorts of variables and incentives, even those that may not apply to them singularly. 

Basically wanting something, and doubting that it will happen, are two entirely different things. I'd like to fight Eidolons anytime of the day, and for Forma system to be improved to allow more flexibility with weapons, without having to have duplicate versions, but ehhh.... 

[Silligoose]

On 2023-08-04 at 10:41 PM, Rachel_dArc said:

Saw an interesting video on trading.
And something came to mind - what if trade was done automatically?  Something similar to GW2's trade market (though in some ways better).

Consider this:  Have a location on your Orbiter - perhaps the same one the marketplace is
You can take anything you own that can be traded, and toss it in, adding the price you're willing to sell for.
Anyone can log in, see what's up for sale - and if the thing they want isn't, they can put in their 'bid' and how much they're willing to pay.
If there's a match (at that price or less), it happens automatically - and the person gets the thing they want.

When you check in later, it'll have whatever it is you wanted - the platinum from sales, or the items you purchased.
No fuss, no muss.

Thoughts?

An auction house is something I've seen requested a few times. Beyond having items being sold at inflated prices, there isn't much reason not to have it.

As mentioned in this thread, Warframe CN is apparently getting one. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

[Slayer-.]

On 2023-08-06 at 4:24 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

Spoiler

We are talking of things that happen in game.

The real life currency is not too relevant. We already have a conversion of real life currency to in game currency in the form of platinum. So the taxation only needs to happen on platinum.

I have a certain set of rules considered to make things relatively easy to understand.

1) The Auction/trade house will be accessible to everyone , but the ones selling will have to have slots similar to weapon/ frame / Riven slots. You start with 5 and you can add more if you want. The ones buying can just buy things outright by browsing. The sellers can put as many items on "auction" as many they have slots.

2) The seller can set the price but there is a minimum tax of 1p or 10% of sale price (rounded up) whichever is higher. So they can sell things for whatever if someone is willing to buy it. The system will show the buyer how much is applicable tax and what will be final price.

3) Buyer sees the price with the tax when they browse.

So the tax for buying something for 5p is 1p.

Screw paying Tax in the form of Plat, why not leave it at credits or leave it how it is now, no way in hell would I pay extra Plat as a tax.

[0_The_F00l]

35 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

Screw paying Tax in the form of Plat, why not leave it at credits or leave it how it is now, no way in hell would I pay extra Plat as a tax.

If it is not very clear , the AH i am envisioning will only allow plat "purchases" you cannot barter or trade for other items. So credits would not be a means to gauging it and the easy access of credit just makes it pointless anyway..

It would also be an additional service , not a replacement to the current trading.

Those that do not wish to pay tax would be free to stay glued to their screens and those that would rather have a life can pay the tax put their items up for sale and come back to the game to be greeted by their sales.

I assume you haven't read my responses where i already elaborated on this.

On 2023-08-06 at 9:14 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

it's for the convenience of selling things when away from your system or already engaged in an activity that you pay the tax. Your words sound like that of a person that doesn't understand the value of time.

You also do realise that plat disappears if you buy in game items or perform trades right ? And platinum exists exactly for convenience (and fashion ). The difference is that part of it now goes back to DE creating an effective sink.

And I am not forcing you or anyone to exclusively engage with this. 

Direct P2P trades can still exist if you don't wish to pay the tax, as that can be done without use of platinum.

The auction house is for those that can't be glued to their screens 24/7 and would like to offload their items in the downtime.

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by 0_The_F00l

[Hexerin]

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

-snip-

 A plat tax would see your vision of this be dead on arrival.

[0_The_F00l]

8 hours ago, Hexerin said:

 A plat tax would see your vision of this be dead on arrival.

You mind elaborating on why you think so ? 

Are you saying players don't want to spend platinum to speed things up or make things more convenient ?

Edited August 8, 2023 by 0_The_F00l

[Zakalwe]

On 2023-08-05 at 6:08 PM, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

I have no idea why people would be against this. Our current options are absolutely horrid. Either use trade chat with ridiculous mark ups or use a 3rd party website. DE should have given most items a min-max price an item could be sold for (rivens excluded). They are too far in to go back and rework trading and it sucks. An auction house would be amazing. There is nothing user friendly or even remotely regulated. when it comes to trading. There is no benefit to DE to implement an auction house so they simply will not do it.

"Horrid" is masssive hyperbole here.

If we had an in-game market, it would become incredibly saturated and prices would drop a great deal making it harder to afford things like slots etc...

It's also very, very little effort to load up .market on your tablet, phone, second screen, etc... and use it to pull up a seller/buyer's details.

  

On 2023-08-07 at 5:51 AM, PublikDomain said:

idk, seems to go a little bit beyond just being jaded. A lot of the time it doesn't feel like a "we will never get it" and instead feels like a "we should never get it". There are people actively opposed who will concoct all sorts of reasons an AH shouldn't be added or trade shouldn't be improved in any way.

Right now, you get more platinum for your items. This makes affording things like cosmetics and other items you need to buy from the in-game market from DE directly a lot easier.

An in-game auction house would see platinum values of items plumet, meaning it would take players who don't trade/farm much or don't have as much time to play the game a lot longer to afford things like slots and cosmetics.

There are good reasons why people don't want it.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Zakalwe

[Hexerin]

2 minutes ago, Zakalwe said:

"Horrid" is masssive hyperbole here. If we had an in-game market, it would become incredibly saturated and prices would drop a great deal making it harder to afford things like slots etc... It's also very, very little effort to load up .market on your tablet, phone, second screen, etc... and use it to pull up a seller/buyer's details.

You would also be able to make sales while offline, because the transactions are happening via the marketplace instead of requiring face to face trading like this game is from the 90s or something. Also, since you wouldn't have to manually interact with every potential buyer, you could be making dozens of sales at the same time. You vastly underestimate the power of a proper modern marketplace feature.

[Zakalwe]

2 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

You would also be able to make sales while offline, because the transactions are happening via the marketplace instead of requiring face to face trading like this game is from the 90s or something. Also, since you wouldn't have to manually interact with every potential buyer, you could be making dozens of sales at the same time. You vastly underestimate the power of a proper modern marketplace feature.

You just ignored my main point and your reply has nothing to do with it.

- It would make values of items crash.
- This would mean it would cost ALL of us more to buy things like slots, cosmetics, boosters, etc...
- It would be even harder for new players to afford these things.

It is a bad idea.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Zakalwe

[Slayer-.]

14 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

If it is not very clear , the AH i am envisioning will only allow plat "purchases" you cannot barter or trade for other items. So credits would not be a means to gauging it and the easy access of credit just makes it pointless anyway..

It would also be an additional service , not a replacement to the current trading.

Those that do not wish to pay tax would be free to stay glued to their screens and those that would rather have a life can pay the tax put their items up for sale and come back to the game to be greeted by their sales.

I assume you haven't read my responses where i already elaborated on this.

 

You suggest a 1plat tax for a 5plat purchase, I'd hate to have to fork out extra plat on top of a purchase plat price, what's wrong with paying a credit tax as we do now in Dojo's I'd hate to have to burn through extra plat for say a 500p riven then pay Plat tax on top as an example.

[PublikDomain]

25 minutes ago, Zakalwe said:

Right now, you get more platinum for your items. This makes affording things like cosmetics and other items you need to buy from the in-game market from DE directly a lot easier.

An in-game auction house would see platinum values of items plumet, meaning it would take players who don't trade/farm much or don't have as much time to play the game a lot longer to afford things like slots and cosmetics.

There are good reasons why people don't want it.

Which also means that right now you need to pay more to other players to get those items. This makes affording things like Prime weapons and frames you can only realistically buy from other players a lot harder. For example, many years ago you could sell Ember Prime for >1,400p. I know because I sold one at that price. Great for me, but that also means some poor idiot spent $65 on her. Now she goes for a pretty steady 90p and more people can afford her.

Those "good reasons" to keep prices high seem to very often be a "my profits from other players", which I've gotta be honest garners zero sympathy from me.

[Hexerin]

35 minutes ago, Zakalwe said:

You just ignored my main point and your reply has nothing to do with it.
- It would make values of items crash.
- This would mean it would cost ALL of us more to buy things like slots, cosmetics, boosters, etc...
- It would be even harder for new players to afford these things.
It is a bad idea.

Try re-reading my response to you and actually take a moment to comprehend it. I explained why the things you brought up aren't actually issues, and in fact how the marketplace would cause the opposite effect overall.