My theory on the Man in the Wall [Spoiler]

[Hexerin]

Hmm... I'll have to go back and check the quest dialogue. I don't recall that bit with Nef afterwards.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

We experience time dilation with the Granum Void content, not time travel. These are not the same thing. Time dilation is a difference in perceived experience of a given span of time. Time travel is straight up moving to a different point in time.

What is happening in the Granum Void, is that time is massively compressed. Think along the lines of "every 1 second that passes in normal space, is 1 minute in the GV" kind of thing. The actual dilation is obviously significantly more than that, of course.

None of that explains how we could leave before we arrived though. You're 100% correct with your explanation of Time Dilation, but it doesn't match up here. In order to leave GV before you arrive, there's no version of Time Dilation that can achieve that, because as you pointed out its simply 2 points in different versions of Spacetime perceiving the same event, aka 2 people watching something at different speeds. Entropy remains, but just occurs differently for person 1 vs Person 2.

I'm not entirely sure where the idea of "there's no time travel in warframe" came from considering Proteas literal existence very strongly disagrees.

Edited September 1, 2023 by (PSN)MYKK678
.

[-Krism-]

36 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

... Vor's Prize, Saya's Vigil, Vox Solaris... I dont know if Deadlock Protocol becomes avaliable right after Vox Solaris or you need to do something else.

Time for some self-promo:

_{I'll update the timeline once Whispers in the Walls comes out}

[(PSN)MYKK678]

4 hours ago, NocheLuz said:

IKR, since Albrecht Entrati is the first to enter that is why it took his appearance. But even Eternalism has to start somewhere. Let's just say if Albrecht Entrati didn't get into the void, there would be no "Man in the Wall" so the void things didn't get started. Leading to the whole event of Warframe not happening at all. Since no Reliquary Drive means no Void traveling and no travel to Tau. In fact, since Eternalism suggests anything can happen and will happen at the same time (for example, you are dead and alive at the same time). It might be possible that the timeline where Orokin is still in control is somewhere we just haven't encountered it yet.

But Albrecht Entrati entered the void and started those events leading to the "Man in the Wall" appearance. If the Man in the Wall really has the ability to time travel. I think it is possible for future Albrecht Entrati to appear when he first entered the void. And since his cut-off finger is the start of everything he would also need to sever his finger at that time as well.

About the nickname, if the Man in the Wall really is Albrecht Entrati he would know about himself obviously. But to the Operator? I think either we told him about it sometime in the story or he has the ability to read the mind of everything entered the void. Or else he would not be able to call Albrecht Entrati "Little Bengal" the first time he entered the void.

As a side note, I think we might be fighting Albrecht Entrati's "Faction" at some point in time. And I also don't think Albrecht Entrati himself is a good guy. But since he didn't partake in the Continuity after he entered the void. He shouldn't be alive, right?... Well, TBH, I don't think so...

The thing about The Wall of Bone to keep in mind is that he/she/it has been manipulating people for a very very long time. I think at one point someone even says he's as old as the stars themselves, but I can't remember exactly where it was.

But one little tease about him I completely forgot about was Parvos Granim himself. If you collect all of the (Lithographs? Tablets? The grey tiles you can decorate your ship with that shows Granims origin) from the Corpus Ship tilesets in the pyramid rooms using Granim Crowns, throughout his whole origin story theres one constant: A "whisper" that Granim kept hearing over and over throughout his life, that not only motivated him to become who he is, but to also start the actual Corpus Faction itself. And there's never any explanation or hint as to what that "whisper" was.

It's just a theory not a fact, but I think the whisper was Wally. I don't think he's the "court jester" that he's portrayed himself as, but is instead a master strategist who has been moving everyone ever so slightly in the right direction for hundreds/thousands of years so that he can attain his goals. Which apparently has something to do with being like Humans/Orokin/Tenno according to the creepy kids song in Duviri. If I had to guess I'd say Wally was the only being inside the Void, maybe even just was the Void itself, and when Albrecht opened the door to the Void, it was the first time Wally realised that leaving was a possibility, and has been working to do so ever since.

[Alguien]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

What is happening in the Granum Void, is that time is massively compressed. Think along the lines of "every 1 second that passes in normal space, is 1 minute in the GV" kind of thing. The actual dilation is obviously significantly more than that, of course.

The fact Nef, Eudico, and Biz still talk to you while you are inside the Granum Void, completely debunks time dilatation, as they would be unable to do so with the massive time difference between inside and outside. And again, Biz even repeats himself over the sensory feeds having a battle that never happened:
The Business: "That temporal effect again! And... yes. There are your sensory feeds, just like last time. So, the Xoris worked - in a battle that never happened. Or did it. I have a headache."
It is time travel, even if is at a small scale.

[NocheLuz]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

The thing about The Wall of Bone to keep in mind is that he/she/it has been manipulating people for a very very long time. I think at one point someone even says he's as old as the stars themselves, but I can't remember exactly where it was.

But one little tease about him I completely forgot about was Parvos Granim himself. If you collect all of the (Lithographs? Tablets? The grey tiles you can decorate your ship with that shows Granims origin) from the Corpus Ship tilesets in the pyramid rooms using Granim Crowns, throughout his whole origin story theres one constant: A "whisper" that Granim kept hearing over and over throughout his life, that not only motivated him to become who he is, but to also start the actual Corpus Faction itself. And there's never any explanation or hint as to what that "whisper" was.

It's just a theory not a fact, but I think the whisper was Wally. I don't think he's the "court jester" that he's portrayed himself as, but is instead a master strategist who has been moving everyone ever so slightly in the right direction for hundreds/thousands of years so that he can attain his goals. Which apparently has something to do with being like Humans/Orokin/Tenno according to the creepy kids song in Duviri. If I had to guess I'd say Wally was the only being inside the Void, maybe even just was the Void itself, and when Albrecht opened the door to the Void, it was the first time Wally realised that leaving was a possibility, and has been working to do so ever since.

This is also why I think Wally has a bigger plan.  He seems to manipulate everyone. If Granum doesn't create Corpus it might be possible we might go into a different timeline as it is. Maybe Wally has been in every possible timeline and wants to create a specific one. So that he may have the power to ... manipulate the reality itself?? Well, IDK what Wally wants but I think it is possible Wally has been manipulating everyone at this point while they don't even know they are heading to their doom. Or he just wants a fun timeline where he has the most fun while watching other people running for their lives.

[Chewarette]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I mean there are many questions since the tennocon reveals. We see a "young" Albrecht jumping into a box, but we've already seen Albrecht as "old" in his painting, and we know that he has presumably also visited Duviri. And in 1999 we clearly see Wally as Albrecht due to the grin. And we also kinda know that Wally is locked up and is trying to break out due to the whole Zariman/Duviri/Membrane thing. So it cant really be Wally going into the box, or can it?

Well that could be Wally in the box. That would explain why Loid would try to break it as soon as he enters in. Maybe Wally is locked inside, expressing himself or "leaking" from the pod through murmurs corrupting whatever is in Deimos. The fact the pod was broken/malfunctioning is probably what made Wally "connect" to the computer, leading to Warframe 1999 (seems likely considering the symbol on Albrecht's computer is the same than the one in the metro station when Arthur tries to access it - pictures here https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1364417-arthur-and-excalibur-and-the-fantasy-of-warframe-with-famous-tales/?do=findComment&comment=12857111)

So I would say...

 

- Wally indeed escaped in lieu of Albrecht

- Loid/Albrecht discovered it somehow (or Albrecht anticipated ?) and locked him up in the pod, but why would Wally even go willingly in the pod to begin with ?

- Wally tried to find a way out only to be locked (again) in the computer

- During the quest, we're connecting ourselves to the Sleeper, making us join Wally in his simulation.

- Could it be that part of the plan is for Loid to "transfer" Wally toward the Player Character, in order to allow Albrecht to come back, as a sort of deal between Loid and Wally ? I could very well see that happen, as it could lead to have some duality between "Real Loid" being the bad guy and "Sentinel Loid" trying to help us

Edited September 1, 2023 by Chewarette

[(PSN)MYKK678]

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

Well that could be Wally in the box. That would explain why Loid would try to break it as soon as he enters in. Maybe Wally is locked inside, expressing himself or "leaking" from the pod through murmurs corrupting whatever is in Deimos. The fact the pod was broken/malfunctioning is probably what made Wally "connect" to the computer, leading to Warframe 1999 (seems likely considering the symbol on Albrecht's computer is the same than the one in the metro station when Arthur tries to access it - pictures here https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1364417-arthur-and-excalibur-and-the-fantasy-of-warframe-with-famous-tales/?do=findComment&comment=12857111)

So I would say...

 

- Wally indeed escaped in lieu of Albrecht

- Loid/Albrecht discovered it somehow (or Albrecht anticipated ?) and locked him up in the pod, but why would Wally even go willingly in the pod to begin with ?

- Wally tried to find a way out only to be locked (again) in the computer

- During the quest, we're connecting ourselves to the Sleeper, making us join Wally in his simulation.

- Could it be that part of the plan is for Loid to "transfer" Wally toward the Player Character, in order to allow Albrecht to come back, as a sort of deal between Loid and Wally ? I could very well see that happen, as it could lead to have some duality between "Real Loid" being the bad guy and "Sentinel Loid" trying to help us

As good as a theory as that is, unfortunately the events shown to us during the trailer show something completely different.

First there's the fact that Albrecht answers a (phone or pager?) at the start. I can't imagine Wally needing any technology. But that parts flimsy at best. The real telling sign is the mo-cap animations and how they're portrayed.

As Albrecht is getting into the sarcophagus, Human Loid is listening to him, and then even sheds a tear knowing that Albrecht likely won't be back from wherever he's going. Albrecht wipes the tear from Loids face as well with his thumb. This isn't some plan to get Wally into a machine, it's 2 longtime friends/possibly lovers saying their final goodbyes.

That's Albrecht getting in the sarcophagus 100%, not Wally. However, speculation begins about where he's going, because I don't think it was straight to whatever/wherever 1999 is. The Sarcophagus may have been how Albrecht got back into the Void and into Duviri, as its never explained when or how he got there, IF that was actually Albrecht who went to Duviri of course.

[NocheLuz]

6 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

As good as a theory as that is, unfortunately the events shown to us during the trailer show something completely different.

First there's the fact that Albrecht answers a (phone or pager?) at the start. I can't imagine Wally needing any technology. But that parts flimsy at best. The real telling sign is the mo-cap animations and how they're portrayed.

As Albrecht is getting into the sarcophagus, Human Loid is listening to him, and then even sheds a tear knowing that Albrecht likely won't be back from wherever he's going. Albrecht wipes the tear from Loids face as well with his thumb. This isn't some plan to get Wally into a machine, it's 2 longtime friends/possibly lovers saying their final goodbyes.

That's Albrecht getting in the sarcophagus 100%, not Wally. However, speculation begins about where he's going, because I don't think it was straight to whatever/wherever 1999 is. The Sarcophagus may have been how Albrecht got back into the Void and into Duviri, as its never explained when or how he got there, IF that was actually Albrecht who went to Duviri of course.

After re-watching the Whisper in the Wall Gameplay Trailer. I really can say that it doesn't make any sense. Unless the "Young Albrecht" entering the sarcophagus and "Albrecht Entrati" is a different person. It is suggested that Human Loid does not know about Loid the Necraloid and presumably "Albrecht Entrati" is the one who created the Necraloid. So, it doesn't make any sense if "Young Albrecht" doesn't awoken from the sarcophagus at some point in time after Human Loid enters the sarcophagus himself. 

Also, there is this "Kalymos sequence" that is almost like a set of rules both the Human Loid and Loid the Necraloid have to follow for the specific events to occur. It is suggested that it is written in the "Grimoire" left behind by Albrecht. Not to mention the "Vessel" that looks like only half of his body is finished. As we can see in the trailer, his arm and hand are still not complete. Not to mention we also saw this "Vassel" head in the Human Loid sleeping room. So, I think this "Vassel" is some sort of dream device that either lets us into the dream/connects with someone (presumably Wally), or lets us connect to someone from another timeline (they will feel like they are dreaming/having Deja Vu).

As a side note, the "Murmur" really feels like a piece of wall with arms. Considering Orokin's structure is flesh and blood, for me it is terrifying. I think someday the wall might jump out and attack us with its arms (lol).

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Well that could be Wally in the box. That would explain why Loid would try to break it as soon as he enters in. Maybe Wally is locked inside, expressing himself or "leaking" from the pod through murmurs corrupting whatever is in Deimos. The fact the pod was broken/malfunctioning is probably what made Wally "connect" to the computer, leading to Warframe 1999 (seems likely considering the symbol on Albrecht's computer is the same than the one in the metro station when Arthur tries to access it - pictures here https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1364417-arthur-and-excalibur-and-the-fantasy-of-warframe-with-famous-tales/?do=findComment&comment=12857111)

So I would say...

 

- Wally indeed escaped in lieu of Albrecht

- Loid/Albrecht discovered it somehow (or Albrecht anticipated ?) and locked him up in the pod, but why would Wally even go willingly in the pod to begin with ?

- Wally tried to find a way out only to be locked (again) in the computer

- During the quest, we're connecting ourselves to the Sleeper, making us join Wally in his simulation.

- Could it be that part of the plan is for Loid to "transfer" Wally toward the Player Character, in order to allow Albrecht to come back, as a sort of deal between Loid and Wally ? I could very well see that happen, as it could lead to have some duality between "Real Loid" being the bad guy and "Sentinel Loid" trying to help us

Yep been having and still have some of those theories jumping around in the noggin aswell. Regarding your point number two, why Wally would go willingly I've had the idea that maybe it is a case of "possession", where Wally is somehow inside and can get extracted. So while Albrecht questions if it was really him that made it back from the Void it could be as simple as he did but Wally hitched a ride aswell. What we see with the pod in the video could very well be as @(PSN)MYKK678mentions that it is how he ended up on Duviri. His real plan might have simply been to sacrifice himself to get Wally back into the void.

Then all of 1999 seems to be eaither in the mind of someone or a conceptualized place similar to Duviri. There are just things in the gameplay that makes it look like not being set in an actual 1999. If the odd glyphs were only on computer screens etc. I'd buy it being back in 1999 and it being caused by the "infested" electronics overall. But it is also seen on posters, very likely made out of paper and ink considering it is set in 1999 and we still do so in 2023.

[NocheLuz]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yep been having and still have some of those theories jumping around in the noggin aswell. Regarding your point number two, why Wally would go willingly I've had the idea that maybe it is a case of "possession", where Wally is somehow inside and can get extracted. So while Albrecht questions if it was really him that made it back from the Void it could be as simple as he did but Wally hitched a ride aswell. What we see with the pod in the video could very well be as @(PSN)MYKK678mentions that it is how he ended up on Duviri. His real plan might have simply been to sacrifice himself to get Wally back into the void.

Then all of 1999 seems to be eaither in the mind of someone or a conceptualized place similar to Duviri. There are just things in the gameplay that makes it look like not being set in an actual 1999. If the odd glyphs were only on computer screens etc. I'd buy it being back in 1999 and it being caused by the "infested" electronics overall. But it is also seen on posters, very likely made out of paper and ink considering it is set in 1999 and we still do so in 2023.

The theory that Warframe 1999 is like Durivi is possible. We do know that Aoi wants to return to day one and try to search for Dr.Albrecht again so that she won't be alone on New Year's Eve. However, as soon as the clock hits the year 2000 there is a black mist and Dr.Albrecht appears to look like Wally. My theory is that since the name is Warframe 1999 we'll be looping in years 1999 until we break out of the loop.

From the dialogue between Aoi to Arthur I presume the "Day One" isn't really long. Maybe a week, most likely 2-3 days ago. However, looking at both of them using Warframe ability I presume the start of the quest can be a full year. Neither of them has enough experience to control their ability and this does not count for development time for the suit they're wearing. But I presume Dr.Albrecht is the one who brings this technology to this era and is also the one who brings the "infestation-like" robot into the world. Maybe to change something and bring some changes into the Warframe timeline.

[Alguien]

2 hours ago, NocheLuz said:

The theory that Warframe 1999 is like Durivi is possible.

I mean, Albrecht was apparently in Duviri and was allowed to build a lab there, maybe he was interested in how Duviri worked and if it could be used to create other fake/alternate worlds/realities.

Also since the Operator created Duviri and it seems to be affecting it in some form (The lost islands seem related to events in our quest at least), the infested in 1999 could even be a side-effect of Deimos being infected.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Alguien

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, NocheLuz said:

The theory that Warframe 1999 is like Durivi is possible. We do know that Aoi wants to return to day one and try to search for Dr.Albrecht again so that she won't be alone on New Year's Eve. However, as soon as the clock hits the year 2000 there is a black mist and Dr.Albrecht appears to look like Wally. My theory is that since the name is Warframe 1999 we'll be looping in years 1999 until we break out of the loop.

From the dialogue between Aoi to Arthur I presume the "Day One" isn't really long. Maybe a week, most likely 2-3 days ago. However, looking at both of them using Warframe ability I presume the start of the quest can be a full year. Neither of them has enough experience to control their ability and this does not count for development time for the suit they're wearing. But I presume Dr.Albrecht is the one who brings this technology to this era and is also the one who brings the "infestation-like" robot into the world. Maybe to change something and bring some changes into the Warframe timeline.

Breaking a loop might be a possible story, some groundhog day stuff etc. But I have zero belief in that any of it will be tied to an actual timeline or the 1999 of the past. Unless DE explains why "current" day earth has strange runic writing everywhere. It would work if it was just on the electronic things, like the metro arrival/departure information boards etc. But when we see it on the commercial posters it looks like a big no-no for reality. Even if we stretch it to the point where the "infested" have spread to a printing company, it still wouldnt make sense that these posters would see use and be placed around town. Unless of course someone steps in here and tells me those "runes" are some actual written language in use nowdays. Which still gets awkward when everything else is in plain english, including the massive linked TV screen in the room where the techno zombies fight Arthur.

Now I might be reading into it too much, but DE loves to leave hints for things. And I'm not sure why they'd throw in the runic writing in the places they have if there wasnt some intent with it.

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

On 2023-09-01 at 12:29 AM, NocheLuz said:

It is a longshot theory with no solid evidence whatsoever. But I would like to know what others think and I must have misread or misinterpreted something from the story. I hope somebody helps correct my theory.

Lore would contradict a lot of your theory.

Albrecht is NOT the 'Man In The Wall,' because Albrecht was the first person who canonically witnessed the man. Nobody else, not his mother, not his father, not any other character.
Albrecht, in full FMA style, created Wally by being witness to them as a concept and an existence.

I personally find using "Eternalism" in the vain way EVERYBODY uses it cheapens the context it's actually used it. It's not a cure-all for problems, nor is it used on its own as a cure-all for plot. It's a plot device, but it's not used as a plot-justifier or a plot in itself. Eternalism being the concept of 'everything and nothing' is not used as a paradoxical 'anything can happen.'

Eternalism is the concept of 'progress to be made, progress not determined.'
It doesn't explain or overrule other principles the game introduces, either. Presentism is similar, but it doesn't suffer from the same permanence. Presentism is the concept of history being irrelevant to reality and the present existence being the only relevant thing.

Eternalism says anything is relevant when available. Presentism says nothing is relevant UNLESS available. Futurism says anything can BECOME relevant, either as a result of a change-forward or a change-back.

Eternalism was used to explain that the void is functionally a living magic system that operates outside common rules. It's not your reality and does not conform entirely to the rules everything else might. And it's used to imply that Albrecht very well could NEVER have observed Wally at all, just as well as Wally could've, and did, observe Albrecht. If you asked "Who spotted who first," you could interpret the question as "If Wally witnessed Albrecht, then Albrecht NEVER witnessed Wally." or even "Albrecht saw the true form of Wally, therefore Wally turned into a facsimile OF Albrecht."

Or neither is true at all. Wally is a hallucination borne of witness theory. It's a real 'person,' but doesn't actually exist. It's a concept you cannot touch. If Wally never exists, it would prove that Albrecht, and your operator, both lose their minds and develop a relationship with an ailment that has captivated and possibly dominated them down the line.

As for "Wally can time travel," that's not true. He's not the only character who's capable of traveling through time, again carrying the conjecture that Wally isn't a tangible, physical, or visible entity and is instead a psychosis or void-spirit. It's not Wally that's traveling, but rather the void ALLOWING travel. It can be argued that the Zariman Ten-Zero is as old as the Ten-Oh was, when Lotus adopted you and the void orphans. Suspended in time.

If the void preserved whatever remained of the Zariman, eternal, present, or future, untouched and uninvaded until somebody WITNESSED the Zariman again, it's very possible that the Holdfasts could've turned into void angels, too. They're no less than a century old at the very least, and a little, or a lot, over two centuries older than when they attempted that jump. At what point do the Holdfasts become demented? At what point does the Zariman become so old and so ancient that even the Holdfasts stop existing?

they imply that 'they' exist because of your presence. But witness theory exists, too. They're sane, and intact, and preserved, because time no longer EXISTED without you, with your concept of time in seconds, witnessing them. You brought TIME into the void, an absence of every natural law. Wally isn't time traveling, it's simply the void behaving like it does. Eternalism embodied in a single cosmic paradox. You're relevant when available-- YOUR concept and measure of time is relevant because YOU find it relevant. As a witness, everything is Schrodinger's Cat, waiting for you to determine whether they're real or not.

Maxing out the Holdfasts, or helping THEM believe that they're worth redeeming, or inspiring them to THINK and PROGRESS and EVOLVE in their thoughts, instead of being suspended in time, thinking the same things and reliving the same days, is what ultimately returns the remaining crew back into humans. They couldn't go mad because to them, they didn't progress past a certain day. They forgot the concept of time. Time was meaningless. When you did your part, they did theirs. You helped them and they helped themselves. In a way, the Holdfasts perpetually travelled through time, too. They relatively SKIPPED time before you arrived. And if that's false, you might as well have REVERSED time to meet them half-way.

Drifter was trapped in the void, stuck. Duviri was the first instance of the drifter canonically existing, between the time Teshin was sucked into that gate and Teshin helping you escape the void, to confront Narmer. The operator clearly aged, which wouldn't make sense if the void suspended time. Again, as an observer and BELIEVER in a concept, a conceptless-existence isn't possible and you end up in a situation where you're either changing history itself[Undercroft] or you're simply living it. The drifter ages because they don't believe that it's possible for them NOT to. It's a normal belief and something not easily abandoned, yet, while they're aging, they're still dying a number of times, becoming callous and even 'empty' as a person. Duviri is a story about you losing your entire IDENTITY, and slowly conforming to the nihilistic view that you ARE living the same day. Eventually, you may stop believing, even, that you're actually aging at all, so you stagnate. Drifter could've been like the holdfasts, suspended in time without an outside observer to instill 'time' and 'existentialism' into them.

Now think about it. Wally probably IS a real person. And maybe he's not. Maybe Wally, for the longest time in the story, was ONLY the madness of somebody who's been empowered by the void. Albrecht and Wally could be one and the same, but they're not traveling through time, they're traveling through the void, capable of phenomenon so strange that they could actually end up in 1999. You could do the same thing, most likely. Un-suspend time in the void, but flow backwards in time, I mean.

Duviri's time travel likely cannot 'reset' the memories of somebody witnessing a change. It's almost an inception moment, where you see your history changing, while you're changing it, while watching a screen of yourself changing history. Self-observation is a self-defeating solution to historical change, since somewhere, somehow, you either un-personed yourself, or you actually still exist.

Time travel occurs in the Xoris questline as well, where you enter the 'Granum' void and end up thwarting the plans of Corpus, only to

A. Enter the void and everybody is aware

B. Exit the void and everybody is confused as hell, because nobody can recall ever discussing the void whatsoever. You have evidence of things that never happened. You, the observer, witness to a metaphorical or literal star imploding, are the only person capable of interpreting what happened, simply because you're the only person who observed it happen.

C. And having accomplished your task, you simply... leave. You just got there, and then you were gone. If this was not time travel, it would never have happened at all. Yet it did, you were, it's over, you left, for real.

It's possible, for the third part of your theory, that Wally is ONLY capable of manifesting as the person observing them. Again, it's likely as a result of the observer being you. Wally manifests as YOU, your DARKNESS, your UNCONSCIOUS or even your PSYCHE. Because, if Wally was NOT a real entity, only void insanity, then you're insane and the manifestation is quite literally psychosis, your inner voice, trying to control you. This would mean that, throughout the entire game, you're CONSTANTLY at odds with your humanity and that you're probably somewhere between "Holdfast" and "Void Angel" at all times. Holdfasts retain their humanity and probably didn't EVEN suffer as everyone else did, even if they DID have an impulse to embrace some kind of higher power, even through the calling of an engine, corrupted by void energy... they still denied that calling.

The operator, in comparison to a holdfast, if they're AWAKE and hearing Wally speaking to them, is only a void angel that hasn't fully manifested. Or a void angel that has survived the void contamination and came out alive because of Lotus. Lotus is the factor that determines whether you're a Thrax, trying to "Break through the wall" to free your master, or if you're NOT a thrax and you're autonomous of any higher deity.

Think about it, while wondering if you've lost your mind throughout the entire game, proving that Albrecht is the same subservient follower as the Thrax are. Albrecht just might be the same person-- Wally is only an allegory.

[chaotea]

On 2023-09-01 at 1:56 PM, -Krism- said:

Upon defeating Protea, the Tenno are ejected from the Granum Void and are warped back in time, to the beginning of the mission, just before Nef Anyo decides to activate the ship's self-destruct. The Tenno extract from a confused Nef Anyo and his specter-less ship.

True on that, though i feel thats more a play on Proteas ability than a specific lore example of time travel.

On 2023-09-01 at 1:25 PM, NocheLuz said:

But since the story deliberately says that the Drifter is the Operator who didn't get saved from the Zariman. I think it is still safe to assume that Drifter isn't really a copy but just an Operator from another timeline by Eternalism.

Duviri has shown that that might be not quite true. In fact its the drifter themselves that tells us that they were someone who got left behind, which doesn't necessarily mean its true, maybe just an easier explanation. Also, constructs have been shown to be able to be formed with complete memories and personalities. If drifter was created as an adult copy of thrax, then they might believe they were also another version of the operator, especially if these void coppies are as real as anything else.

I personally suspect Eternalism isnt as simple as people think. Firstly, it was a concept developed by the orokin, but the Zaramin accident happened early on in their void experiments. I suspect that the man in the walls pact with the pre-operator destroys his eternalism, eliminating all possible variations, or many of them, and fusing them into a single individual.

On 2023-09-01 at 1:25 PM, NocheLuz said:

Since no matter what we ended up doing in the past the Future seemingly didn't change at all. Suggesting we didn't go into the "Past" but rather the manifestation of the past that connected to the present.

Thats my thought process aswell.

On 2023-09-01 at 1:25 PM, NocheLuz said:

Since he got this deal with "Stranger" and got fused with his other self into one ultimate being that can appear in all space-time.

Thats what i recon happened with the operator to some extent, though again im willing to say this isnt lore so much as it is a dev joke.

 

[Atsia]

3 hours ago, chaotea said:

If drifter was created as an adult copy of thrax, then they might believe they were also another version of the operator, especially if these void coppies are as real as anything else.

That would hold up until Drifter directly said he was the one that made Duviri and was in charge, not Thrax. Who we also know is directly a character from the book and acts the same way there.

[NocheLuz]

On 2023-09-04 at 1:47 AM, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

Lore would contradict a lot of your theory.

Albrecht is NOT the 'Man In The Wall,' because Albrecht was the first person who canonically witnessed the man. Nobody else, not his mother, not his father, not any other character.
Albrecht, in full FMA style, created Wally by being witness to them as a concept and an existence.

I personally find using "Eternalism" in the vain way EVERYBODY uses it cheapens the context it's actually used it. It's not a cure-all for problems, nor is it used on its own as a cure-all for plot. It's a plot device, but it's not used as a plot-justifier or a plot in itself. Eternalism being the concept of 'everything and nothing' is not used as a paradoxical 'anything can happen.'

Eternalism is the concept of 'progress to be made, progress not determined.'
It doesn't explain or overrule other principles the game introduces, either. Presentism is similar, but it doesn't suffer from the same permanence. Presentism is the concept of history being irrelevant to reality and the present existence being the only relevant thing.

Eternalism says anything is relevant when available. Presentism says nothing is relevant UNLESS available. Futurism says anything can BECOME relevant, either as a result of a change-forward or a change-back.

Eternalism was used to explain that the void is functionally a living magic system that operates outside common rules. It's not your reality and does not conform entirely to the rules everything else might. And it's used to imply that Albrecht very well could NEVER have observed Wally at all, just as well as Wally could've, and did, observe Albrecht. If you asked "Who spotted who first," you could interpret the question as "If Wally witnessed Albrecht, then Albrecht NEVER witnessed Wally." or even "Albrecht saw the true form of Wally, therefore Wally turned into a facsimile OF Albrecht."

Or neither is true at all. Wally is a hallucination borne of witness theory. It's a real 'person,' but doesn't actually exist. It's a concept you cannot touch. If Wally never exists, it would prove that Albrecht, and your operator, both lose their minds and develop a relationship with an ailment that has captivated and possibly dominated them down the line.

As for "Wally can time travel," that's not true. He's not the only character who's capable of traveling through time, again carrying the conjecture that Wally isn't a tangible, physical, or visible entity and is instead a psychosis or void-spirit. It's not Wally that's traveling, but rather the void ALLOWING travel. It can be argued that the Zariman Ten-Zero is as old as the Ten-Oh was, when Lotus adopted you and the void orphans. Suspended in time.

If the void preserved whatever remained of the Zariman, eternal, present, or future, untouched and uninvaded until somebody WITNESSED the Zariman again, it's very possible that the Holdfasts could've turned into void angels, too. They're no less than a century old at the very least, and a little, or a lot, over two centuries older than when they attempted that jump. At what point do the Holdfasts become demented? At what point does the Zariman become so old and so ancient that even the Holdfasts stop existing?

they imply that 'they' exist because of your presence. But witness theory exists, too. They're sane, and intact, and preserved, because time no longer EXISTED without you, with your concept of time in seconds, witnessing them. You brought TIME into the void, an absence of every natural law. Wally isn't time traveling, it's simply the void behaving like it does. Eternalism embodied in a single cosmic paradox. You're relevant when available-- YOUR concept and measure of time is relevant because YOU find it relevant. As a witness, everything is Schrodinger's Cat, waiting for you to determine whether they're real or not.

Maxing out the Holdfasts, or helping THEM believe that they're worth redeeming, or inspiring them to THINK and PROGRESS and EVOLVE in their thoughts, instead of being suspended in time, thinking the same things and reliving the same days, is what ultimately returns the remaining crew back into humans. They couldn't go mad because to them, they didn't progress past a certain day. They forgot the concept of time. Time was meaningless. When you did your part, they did theirs. You helped them and they helped themselves. In a way, the Holdfasts perpetually travelled through time, too. They relatively SKIPPED time before you arrived. And if that's false, you might as well have REVERSED time to meet them half-way.

Drifter was trapped in the void, stuck. Duviri was the first instance of the drifter canonically existing, between the time Teshin was sucked into that gate and Teshin helping you escape the void, to confront Narmer. The operator clearly aged, which wouldn't make sense if the void suspended time. Again, as an observer and BELIEVER in a concept, a conceptless-existence isn't possible and you end up in a situation where you're either changing history itself[Undercroft] or you're simply living it. The drifter ages because they don't believe that it's possible for them NOT to. It's a normal belief and something not easily abandoned, yet, while they're aging, they're still dying a number of times, becoming callous and even 'empty' as a person. Duviri is a story about you losing your entire IDENTITY, and slowly conforming to the nihilistic view that you ARE living the same day. Eventually, you may stop believing, even, that you're actually aging at all, so you stagnate. Drifter could've been like the holdfasts, suspended in time without an outside observer to instill 'time' and 'existentialism' into them.

Now think about it. Wally probably IS a real person. And maybe he's not. Maybe Wally, for the longest time in the story, was ONLY the madness of somebody who's been empowered by the void. Albrecht and Wally could be one and the same, but they're not traveling through time, they're traveling through the void, capable of phenomenon so strange that they could actually end up in 1999. You could do the same thing, most likely. Un-suspend time in the void, but flow backwards in time, I mean.

Duviri's time travel likely cannot 'reset' the memories of somebody witnessing a change. It's almost an inception moment, where you see your history changing, while you're changing it, while watching a screen of yourself changing history. Self-observation is a self-defeating solution to historical change, since somewhere, somehow, you either un-personed yourself, or you actually still exist.

Time travel occurs in the Xoris questline as well, where you enter the 'Granum' void and end up thwarting the plans of Corpus, only to

A. Enter the void and everybody is aware

B. Exit the void and everybody is confused as hell, because nobody can recall ever discussing the void whatsoever. You have evidence of things that never happened. You, the observer, witness to a metaphorical or literal star imploding, are the only person capable of interpreting what happened, simply because you're the only person who observed it happen.

C. And having accomplished your task, you simply... leave. You just got there, and then you were gone. If this was not time travel, it would never have happened at all. Yet it did, you were, it's over, you left, for real.

It's possible, for the third part of your theory, that Wally is ONLY capable of manifesting as the person observing them. Again, it's likely as a result of the observer being you. Wally manifests as YOU, your DARKNESS, your UNCONSCIOUS or even your PSYCHE. Because, if Wally was NOT a real entity, only void insanity, then you're insane and the manifestation is quite literally psychosis, your inner voice, trying to control you. This would mean that, throughout the entire game, you're CONSTANTLY at odds with your humanity and that you're probably somewhere between "Holdfast" and "Void Angel" at all times. Holdfasts retain their humanity and probably didn't EVEN suffer as everyone else did, even if they DID have an impulse to embrace some kind of higher power, even through the calling of an engine, corrupted by void energy... they still denied that calling.

The operator, in comparison to a holdfast, if they're AWAKE and hearing Wally speaking to them, is only a void angel that hasn't fully manifested. Or a void angel that has survived the void contamination and came out alive because of Lotus. Lotus is the factor that determines whether you're a Thrax, trying to "Break through the wall" to free your master, or if you're NOT a thrax and you're autonomous of any higher deity.

Think about it, while wondering if you've lost your mind throughout the entire game, proving that Albrecht is the same subservient follower as the Thrax are. Albrecht just might be the same person-- Wally is only an allegory.

Thank you for your reply!! TBH, the Albrecht = Wally is a very longshot theory. But we do know that Wally must have a body or at least be able to materialize himself. Because Albrecht did cut off his finger when he closed the void gate. However, Wally never fixed his missing finger. If he materializes himself and is able to change his appearance, he should be able to fix his finger easily. In fact, only on the occasion that he showed up as "himself" that we see that he missing a finger. that is why I believe he must have a body or is a person so he cannot fix his cut-off finger easily.

Now go back to the first time Albrecht opened the gate to the void. We do know that Wally must leave his finger there so Albrecht can study and make a void drive. If Wally is Albrecht he must have known a future where Wally not leaving the finger and Orokin is still in control of the origin system. So, he must appear there and must leave his finger... Or this is just a coincidence and Wally is just too excited to pursue the first human ever to enter the void and get his finger cut...

As a side note, they never tell us who this "Master" of the void Angel is. But I believe it is Wally because of the upcoming Murmur faction. DE told us that the "Master" of the Murmur faction is Wally... But then... Why not use Void Angel? My theory is that "Murmur" must be able to exit the void and manifest itself in a "Voidless" area to do his bidding. Because Void angel although powerful, can only exist in areas where Void energy is abundant.

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

14 minutes ago, NocheLuz said:

Now go back to the first time Albrecht opened the gate to the void. We do know that Wally must leave his finger there so Albrecht can study and make a void drive.

If Wally is Albrecht he must have known a future of Wally not leaving the finger and the Orokin are still in control of the origin system. So, he must appear there and must leave his finger... Or this is just a coincidence and Wally is just too excited to pursue the first human ever to enter the void and get his finger cut...

As a side note, they never tell us who this "Master" of the void Angel is. But I believe it is Wally because of the upcoming Murmur faction. DE told us that the "Master" of the Murmur faction is Wally... But then... Why not use Void Angel? My theory is that "Murmur" must be able to exit the void and manifest itself in a "Voidless" area to do his bidding. Because Void angel although powerful, can only exist in areas where Void energy is abundant.

As someone with a railjack, carrying the finger of Wally, a finger that repeatedly tells me that I owe them for their giving me void powers, I agree. And a void drive was made as a result. I'm half-sure if Albrecht appears in front of the operator, the only definitive proof of a missing finger is if you can see his whole body and get a look at his arms. Because in the `1999 teaser, if it was Wally[It likely was, the A****** was speaking the cursed language at Arthur, so unless Albrecht, himself, is 100% sane and autonomous and capable of speaking a language humans probably aren't fully capable of enunciating or vocalizing at all... definitely Wally. He's not human, so of course he did.] then you'll find missing fingers, however, if it's NOT wally, and a finger is still missing, it's safe to say the hypothesis checks out. Possession isn't actually a new concept, either, so if it's psychosis/possession, or two-consciousness' conversing in a single body to fight for control, it beats Wally's other theory, of astral projecting everywhere.

> If Wally is Albrecht he must have known a future of Wally not leaving the finger and the Orokin are still in control of the origin system. < is a phrase that confuses me in a good way.

If the two are one and the same, it actually means that at some point, even by accident, Wally loses a finger before he possesses Albrecht, not that Albrecht had always been Wally, so at every possible moment in time, Albrecht had consequently known about the finger in every timeline and every possibility. The finger could've been removed just before possession, or several months to years before it even 'began' so to speak, and the finger was used for research, eventually, it was too late to do anything about the removed finger when possession took hold, and...

I

Spoiler

t's even possible that Elbrecht planned his death, with Loid as his witness and executioner, which is one idea that never would've crossed anybody's mind, because possession IS canon, but it doesn't mean that Albrecht isn't fighting to remain the dominant mind over Wally. Which contextualizes the teaser in a more accurate light. I always thought Loid's violent smashing of that instrument against the sarcophagus was going to be related to murder, and if this is the case, it's possible that entire scene, where Albrecht gets sent into the dream-machine, was about TRAPPING Wally inside of that dream, preventing him from escaping.

Pretty sure the void angels actually had several masters. Wally was definitely one of them, without a doubt, but he couldn't have been the only one, and he might've been indeed a MASTER of thraxes, but maybe he, himself, had a master above him. I theorized "Void Angels" had "Void Gods," sort of like a Lucifer to the christian 'God,' and the notable acolyte of the void angels could've been Yahweh, or the Jesus in this analogy. Which doesn't make Wally the devil, or even the jesus in this analogy, but would imply somebody IS.

 

Spoiler

Wally, however large his role is, is the one who escaped the void. I'm sure no matter how strong the void's panetheon is, they actually cannot physically ESCAPE the void on their own. Which puts emphasis on Albrecht's possession, since he's a physical person who dwells outside the void. A vessel, a meat shell, a medium for a god to walk the origin system. A god to walk the earth. And with this theory given, the murmurs could've been angels of their own, or beneath angels. Nephilim.

I'm stretching religious ideas a little far, after all, everyone plays the operator hard enough as a 'void devil,' when they're practically sworn to the extermination of 'angels'

To be frank, your murmur theory and my theory ABOUT the murmur are pretty much identical as far as practicality goes. The difference is so negligible if it's true, the way it's true doesn't really matter. A demigod is a demigod.

 

[balckillofdeath]

heres my theory, if anyone is interested in it. the man in the wall is the manifestation of darkness.
all of our dark emotions ideas and thoughts.

when the zariman accident happened and everyone got exposed to void, the man in the wall and the void feeds on the complex emotions of the passenger. and with every emotion, the void gets stronger. changing everyone except the children. (at least intially)

the reason the children didnt change is because they didnt experience the guilt, anger, hatred, hell even some of the messed up happiness the parents and adults did.

they had no idea what was going on. we were terrifed of him.

we made the deal. we subconsciously found a way to break the deal. (the void reads every thought and every emotion).

how did we do that, we used the power of void to split time. (the man in the wall could theoretically do this too except I dont think it experiences emotions like we do)

creating the drifter, a litteral version of our selves(hes not really void created cause he actually exists). 

what was the deal made that we had to pay back you might ask? to give up our emotions!

the drifter in duvurii has been slowly giving up emotions for the longest time. (the void was sort of munching on him)

right until we were sent back into the void without any sort technological protection. we wanted to keep fighting. the void manifested that through the lotus hand that had dropped down on duvurii. allowing the drifter to escape his almost self inflicted sentence. 

i see i think the new whisper in the walls will be about fighting back against the man in the wall.
we will be fighting a entity quite literally capable of rewriting reality who wants everyone to go mad(lose all sense of self, reason, purpose and emotion).

rell has been fighting back against that entity for a while. he had the man in the wall contained. but when we woke up he knew that had happened. (the hatred/anger against us had fractured him in addition to not having his normal body) so his mind broke literally creating the entities we fight against during the chains of harrow.

currently the nerual sentry helps the man in the wall do it already!

albert entrati might have been one of the few orokin who suspected the true danger  of the man in the wall. there were some supporters of the idea of the danger but not enough to convince the orokin to not  launch the zariman. albert entrati was never really sure either which made it far easier for the head orokin to dismiss concerns(void makes people crazy) for them to launch the zariman.
we will be fighting with albert entrati, to beat back the lidless eye.  albert entrati had put himself in stasis right after the zariman incident because he knew one day the man in the wall would truly find a way in. (instictually i guess)

the warframe 1999 was right before the old war.  we knew what were the warframes before but had chosen to forget during the second dream. if we didnt have the trauma of both what we had done as well as what we were. this was to protect us.(incidentally, it protected us from the void too)

 

despite the dangers the void poses to all, at the time of the warframe creation they were more mere figments of imagination at the time. they were vague hints of danger.
sure the orokin knew the void reacted with thought but they had no idea how much real danger it was!

because albert entrati was one of the first scientists to discover the void and interact with it, he helped develop the warframes. developing ways to give them powers

i believe the archive message was after the old war but before the tenno had truly been put into stasis. he was questioning all decisions that had led him up to that point. i think he started to look in horror at what he was and what he had done for the status quo. stop the continuity, stop the war mongering all of it.