Thoughts/input on new shield gating?

[Leqesai]

17 minutes ago, GPrime96 said:

Except most players are focusing on shields for the gating while leaving Health/Armor alone. After the change, shield gating would be even more passive.

Where are you getting your stats?

[(NSW)Greybones]

On 10/5/2023 at 5:51 AM, Joezone619 said:

I think these shield changes will finally have people focus shields some frames instead of health/armor on all of them. the raise to 50% damage reduction is significant, and compounded by the recharge delay mods.

Mm. Possibly hugely significant; even in the current incarnation, just recharge mods alone can have a big impact on survival if someone plays to the shield’s strength and moves around to avoid damage in the first place while giving shields the room needed to recharge.

Most players won’t know though because they try to treat recharging light shields like over-armoured non-recharging health and want to stand around taking hits, which understandably shreds shields before they get a chance to recharge. Players would straight up die and never bothered getting better when they could rely on their builds alone to solve the problem regardless of how few options they shoehorned themselves into, and it kind of feels like these shield changes are DE caving to the standard player and making it so that they can get away with more while doing less and punishes bad play less. Which admittedly most players found to be a mere nuisance than any sort of “I can expand my range of options and the places I can take them if I didn’t try to build my Frames to let me stand around or overkill AoE” consideration, partly because they’re not terribly concerned with options in the first place outside of whatever lets them grind fast (which innately means that they need to avoid having to fight because fights can last varying amounts of time and are usually slower than instant death for everything and can get messy)

Will ultimately need to see though; maybe they’re not such simplified changes when it comes to their impact on survival. And even then it means I’ll probably just be equipping a Dragon Key to get some spice into the fight in higher-level content, and in even higher-level content it could mean I’ve got more free slots to play around with while simultaneously others temporarily have more slots to play around with until they find their perfect build to live in and everything gets locked in once more and the Meta potentially shifts

Edited October 5, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[Xamuswing]

It'll be a slight buff to anyone that doesn't abuse Decayed Keys or Arcane Aegis, but unfortunately, Warframes like Banshee or Vauban are gonna be way harder to use in SP and general content due to the smaller shield gate. It sucks that it's now a case where the rich just get richer.

[Tiltskillet]

25 minutes ago, Xamuswing said:

It'll be a slight buff to anyone that doesn't abuse Decayed Keys or Arcane Aegis, but unfortunately, Warframes like Banshee or Vauban are gonna be way harder to use in SP and general content due to the smaller shield gate. It sucks that it's now a case where the rich just get richer.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see it making much difference in my Banshee play.  She's barely under the threshold for the 1.3s shield gate, partial shield gate will be better most of the time than now, and what shields she does have will be a little tougher.

edit: oh now I get it,  you mean "as a frame that tends to rely on keygating".  That's probably true for a lot of players, but that's not something I do seriously.   So from that perspective, this update looks non-threatening.   

However from the dragon key perspective, I think she's one of the easier frames to make space for Catalyzing Shields.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

8 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

She's barely under the threshold for the 1.3s shield gate, partial shield gate will be better most of the time than now, and what shields she does have will be a little tougher.

 

With the new stat changes, isn't she going to be above the threshold? 370 (new) vs 300 (old)?

Same with Vauban Prime (though not regular Vauban). 

[Tiltskillet]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

With the new stat changes, isn't she going to be above the threshold? 370 (new) vs 300 (old)?

 

Oh, you're right.  For some reason I thought her health/shields were staying at 300.   So that's even better, though I don't think I'll be able to tell the difference in shield gate duration.

[RichardKam]

3小时前 , (NSW)Greybones 说:

Mm. Possibly hugely significant; even in the current incarnation, just recharge mods alone can have a big impact on survival if someone plays to the shield’s strength and moves around to avoid damage in the first place while giving shields the room needed to recharge.

Most players won’t know though because they try to treat recharging light shields like over-armoured non-recharging health and want to stand around taking hits, which understandably shreds shields before they get a chance to recharge. Players would straight up die and never bothered getting better when they could rely on their builds alone to solve the problem regardless of how few options they shoehorned themselves into, and it kind of feels like these shield changes are DE caving to the standard player and making it so that they can get away with more while doing less and punishes bad play less. Which admittedly most players found to be a mere nuisance than any sort of “I can expand my range of options and the places I can take them if I didn’t try to build my Frames to let me stand around or overkill AoE” consideration, partly because they’re not terribly concerned with options in the first place outside of whatever lets them grind fast (which innately means that they need to avoid having to fight because fights can last varying amounts of time and are usually slower than instant death for everything and can get messy)

Will ultimately need to see though; maybe they’re not such simplified changes when it comes to their impact on survival. And even then it means I’ll probably just be equipping a Dragon Key to get some spice into the fight in higher-level content, and in even higher-level content it could mean I’ve got more free slots to play around with while simultaneously others temporarily have more slots to play around with until they find their perfect build to live in and everything gets locked in once more and the Meta potentially shifts

But is it really significant? 

On paper it sounds nice. Shield has 50% DR which is equivalent to 300 armor for health. That's quite a lot for squishy frame with something like 100 armor. But shield DR is fixed. We cannot stack armor on it. Surely we can throw in arcane aegis and adaptation and vazarin and stuff to compensate, but in high difficulty content once your shield is gone, you are left with your armor and health and if you rely on your shield too much, "always on the move and avoid getting hit" is not sufficient to keeping you alive because we have something called stray bullets. 

I don't think it is fair to call players "never bother to get better" when they choose to invest in armor/health over shield because armor/health is more reliable than shield. We simply have so many options to build up armor and health in game: gloom, energy conversion, equilibrium, arcane blessing, molt reconstruct, operator arcanes, vazarin dash, just to name a few, and you can still keep moving and avoid getting hit. It is all about risk and benefit. 

Ultimately we will see after the update. Maybe the shield changes will bring a brand new "high shield arcane aegis lightning cable fast charging build" that does not even need shield gating. But at this moment I won't expect too much.

[(NSW)Greybones]

50 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

But is it really significant? 

On paper it sounds nice. Shield has 50% DR which is equivalent to 300 armor for health. That's quite a lot for squishy frame with something like 100 armor. But shield DR is fixed. We cannot stack armor on it. Surely we can throw in arcane aegis and adaptation and vazarin and stuff to compensate, but in high difficulty content once your shield is gone, you are left with your armor and health and if you rely on your shield too much, "always on the move and avoid getting hit" is not sufficient to keeping you alive because we have something called stray bullets. 

I don't think it is fair to call players "never bother to get better" when they choose to invest in armor/health over shield because armor/health is more reliable than shield. We simply have so many options to build up armor and health in game: gloom, energy conversion, equilibrium, arcane blessing, molt reconstruct, operator arcanes, vazarin dash, just to name a few, and you can still keep moving and avoid getting hit. It is all about risk and benefit. 

Ultimately we will see after the update. Maybe the shield changes will bring a brand new "high shield arcane aegis lightning cable fast charging build" that does not even need shield gating. But at this moment I won't expect too much.

Shields were already doing their job quite well; this change makes them more accessible for players who either never bothered to learn how to play to the strengths of shield or are simply incapable, but we’ll have to see what kind of impact it has for someone who already knew how to stay alive; at worst, I expect to have to equip a Decaying Dragon Key to bring some risk back to the fight, but I’m trusting that they won’t go as far as your standard extremely risk-averse player would like (there’s managing risk, and then there’s removing risk entirely, and most players definitely fall into the latter camp while acting like it’s only logical to remove the gameplay from the game)

Edited October 6, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(NSW)warfare3376]

49 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Ultimately we will see after the update. Maybe the shield changes will bring a brand new "high shield arcane aegis lightning cable fast charging build" that does not even need shield gating. But at this moment I won't expect too much.

There actually will be, the changes with the shield recharge mods are actually very significant and will most likely see a lot of use. There is one build in particular that will be insanely strong that currently on gauss can do (granted it will use shield gating) and thats stacking recharge delay from mods on top of vazarins guardian break which will grant the shield recharge delay form empty to be faster than a partial shield gate.

But aside from that build fast deflection alone will bring the partial shield recharge delay down to .55 secs so if your using that alongside a source of dr your shield shields would actually regen quite fast provided youre occasionally doing some bullet jumps or have some evasion buffs, also it will basically be mandatory on hildryn. Unfortunately as youve said there are nowhere near the amount of options for dr when it comes to shields as there are for health and armor, your basically stuck with adaptation or aviator, if arcane double back had a usable duration that wouldve been a good option too. I do believe that shield tanking will be at least on par with health tanking up till the point where health tanking is no longer viable but it will just have a slightly different playstyle. Oh and shield tanking on titania specifically will be really good since she has dr evasion and accuracy lowering in her kit and she has permanent uptime on aviator and other dr while airborne mods.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

No, its only while using the catalyzing shields mod that it will make the gate duration scale with your shield percentage. Shield gate without the mod equipped will only scale based of your total amount of shields at the time not the percentage of shields, like think about it for a second if it did work the way you think its going to than it would always be a downside to actually mod for more shields which is why it doesnt work that way.

It applies both with and without. What the mod does is simply hardcap the duration to 1.33 seconds while ignoring what your max shield value is or what the max gate is in the system otherwise. Like how Grendel will have a miniscule baseline gate due to having only 95 out of the potential 1150 scaling shield value, while the mod on the otherhand allows his to easily stay nearly infinitely at the 1.33 gate by only requiring him to replenish 19 shields to hit the cap. 

Without the mod the scaling is based on the natural cap i.e 2.5 seconds at 1150 shields. Then if the scaling is fluid or break point based we cant tell yet, but 1150 is 100% in that system while with the mod 100% is whatever shields you end up with as your max with the mod equipped. This is why the mod will be better than other options on frames that only hit 1.33 seconds or less baseline, since the mod lowers how much shields you need to replenish to reach a window longer than 0.33 seconds as opposed to not using the mod. And it will be better on frames with higher shields aswell incase they cannot replenish bigger chunks regularly, since you'll get longer windows for less energy.

I also dont see how you think modding for more shields would be a downside if things work like that. More shields without the corrupted mod allows for a longer shield gate up to 2.5 seconds. So if you can sustain constantly getting to a point equal to or higher than the shields needed to hit 1.33 seconds it is obviously worth it. If not you are better off with the corrupted mod if your aim is to hit 1.33 as often as possible and benefit as much as you can from partially replenished shields. But this is again really just about the frames that only manage to hit 1.33 naturally or those that fall short of it, and have no kit-based way to replenish shields.

 

[(NSW)warfare3376]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It applies both with and without. What the mod does is simply hardcap the duration to 1.33 seconds while ignoring what your max shield value is or what the max gate is in the system otherwise. Like how Grendel will have a miniscule baseline gate due to having only 95 out of the potential 1150 scaling shield value, while the mod on the otherhand allows his to easily stay nearly infinitely at the 1.33 gate by only requiring him to replenish 19 shields to hit the cap. 

Literally no, thats how it will works pablo even made a tweet regarding grendel and said he wont get the full gate because of his low shields.

 

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I also dont see how you think modding for more shields would be a downside if things work like that. More shields without the corrupted mod allows for a longer shield gate up to 2.5 seconds. So if you can sustain constantly getting to a point equal to or higher than the shields needed to hit 1.33 seconds it is obviously worth it. If not you are better off with the corrupted mod if your aim is to hit 1.33 as often as possible and benefit as much as you can from partially replenished shields. But this is again really just about the frames that only manage to hit 1.33 naturally or those that fall short of it, and have no kit-based way to replenish shields.

And I never said modding for more shields would be a downside, in fact I never said anything about modding for more shields just that the new catalyzing shields mod wont as valuable as you would think.

[stormy505]

On 2023-10-02 at 4:28 PM, FiveN9ne said:

First of all, the new shield gate mechanics are not more useful, they are a nerf. This is objectively true. More effort for same result? Nerf.

Depends on the frame. For decay key users, yeah it's a nerf. But for frames who like the benefit in DR from large shields and also not needing to reach their max shield to get a solid shield gate it's a buff.

Hildryn, mag, volt, protea, harrow, any pillage user and probably more that I can't remember see this as a buff.

Also, something that I haven't seen people mention is that the mod that effectively replaces decaying key is usable in places where gear is not useable. Like SP circuit. Which, honestly yeah it's a lot of forma to change my builds but SP endurance run compatibility.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Literally no, thats how it will works pablo even made a tweet regarding grendel and said he wont get the full gate because of his low shields.

Which is exactly what I said. And you still do not seem to understand the system. I dont know how more simple I can explain it.

Grendel wont gain the full gate from his baseline shields since he has 95 shields out of 1150 (the cap for 2.5 sec gate), which is 1/12 out of the total or around 1/3 of the shields needed to hit 1.33 sec. So Grendel will at baseline sit only slightly above 0.33 at all times. Now if you mod him with the corrupted mod it will allow him to sit between 0.33 to 1.33 seconds with his new value of 19 total shields. However, even without the mod grendel can reach near the actual cap since all shield frames but Harrow have access to 1000 overshields, which puts Grendel at 1095/1150 shields if he can achieve constant overshields. Unless DE for some reason have ignored Overshields.

18 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And I never said modding for more shields would be a downside, in fact I never said anything about modding for more shields just that the new catalyzing shields mod wont as valuable as you would think.

You did though regarding if the system works like I say, it is in the bloody quote tied to the segment from me you quoted.

On 2023-10-05 at 9:22 PM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

like think about it for a second if it did work the way you think its going to than it would always be a downside to actually mod for more shields which is why it doesnt work that way.

Or who wrote that? But as I said, the system working like I say wont impact the value of building for more shields or not since the cap is at the same point for all no matter their baseline shields. It will come down to if the frame can sustain shields above 325 or not. If not, slotting the mod is simpler since it makes it easier to reach the 1.33 seconds that is the breakpoint at 325 shields. And you will likely only need to spend an Aura to sustain it after that.

 

[(NSW)warfare3376]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which is exactly what I said. And you still do not seem to understand the system. I dont know how more simple I can explain it.

Grendel wont gain the full gate from his baseline shields since he has 95 shields out of 1150 (the cap for 2.5 sec gate), which is 1/12 out of the total or around 1/3 of the shields needed to hit 1.33 sec. So Grendel will at baseline sit only slightly above 0.33 at all times. Now if you mod him with the corrupted mod it will allow him to sit between 0.33 to 1.33 seconds with his new value of 19 total shields. However, even without the mod grendel can reach near the actual cap since all shield frames but Harrow have access to 1000 overshields, which puts Grendel at 1095/1150 shields if he can achieve constant overshields. Unless DE for some reason have ignored Overshields.

See here we go again with the old mentality of how shield gating works. Not only that youre adding even more confusion with this percentage you keep bringing up even thats not how it will work. You keep using 1.33 secs as the baseline because thats what it is currently, however when the update rolls out this will no longer be the case as the range will be much more dynamic in which a new baseline will emerge, grendel for instance will have about a .6 or .7ish initial shield gate and with overshields that would be even higher. The question is will that be good enough to be usable or are the extra .6-.5 secs or even less with overshields actually needed. What that new baseline will be we will have to wait until the exact numbers get revealed, what Im willing to bet on is that once we find that new baseline, in which Im guessing around .8ish to 1 sec or 150ish shields to 175ish, it will then come down to how much extra value catalyzing shields would give instead which will be frame/build dependent. Is your frames casting animations supper long? Do you have enough energy sustain or are you struggling? As a player how good is your reaction time, do you need the few extra milliseconds? Its gonna come down to stuff like this wether or not is will be at all valuable to use the mod or not, it wont be this end all be all type mod your making out to be.

 

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You did though regarding if the system works like I say, it is in the bloody quote tied to the segment from me you quoted.

How you read what I said again.

On 2023-10-05 at 12:22 PM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

On 2023-10-05 at 7:45 AM, SneakyErvin said:

By simple math and the exact numbers which we do have access to that I also posted which comes straight from the shield gate dev shop. It is all % based. So to get to 1 seconds you need to replenish 75% of your full shields if you have 325 shields (the breakpoint where frames recieve the current 1.33 seconds). Which is 243.75, or rounded up 244. 175-ish would be closer to half shields, so 0.67 sec. They were even kind to post the example based on 100 shields with the key to make the "break points" easy to see in connected to percentages.

No, its only while using the catalyzing shields mod that it will make the gate duration scale with your shield percentage. Shield gate without the mod equipped will only scale based of your total amount of shields at the time not the percentage of shields, like think about it for a second if it did work the way you think its going to than it would always be a downside to actually mod for more shields which is why it doesnt work that way.

Heres the entire context for it. You seem to think that the new shield gate duration will be based on some percentage which is literally not how it works. I then go to if it did work that way then lowering your max shields would always be more rewarding than increasing them which completely goes against why DE made the change in the 1st and is why it doesnt work that way. Those example percentages you gave from the dev workshop and also seemingly confusing you only applies if you are using the catalyzing shields mod, the chart above that shows the way shield gate actually works without the mod equipped which is based on the number of shields you currently have not some percentage of shields you currently have, you can even see how at the start of the chart it spikes up then rounds out.

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

See here we go again with the old mentality of how shield gating works. Not only that youre adding even more confusion with this percentage you keep bringing up even thats not how it will work. You keep using 1.33 secs as the baseline because thats what it is currently, however when the update rolls out this will no longer be the case as the range will be much more dynamic in which a new baseline will emerge, grendel for instance will have about a .6 or .7ish initial shield gate and with overshields that would be even higher. The question is will that be good enough to be usable or are the extra .6-.5 secs or even less with overshields actually needed. What that new baseline will be we will have to wait until the exact numbers get revealed, what Im willing to bet on is that once we find that new baseline, in which Im guessing around .8ish to 1 sec or 150ish shields to 175ish, it will then come down to how much extra value catalyzing shields would give instead which will be frame/build dependent. Is your frames casting animations supper long? Do you have enough energy sustain or are you struggling? As a player how good is your reaction time, do you need the few extra milliseconds? Its gonna come down to stuff like this wether or not is will be at all valuable to use the mod or not, it wont be this end all be all type mod your making out to be.

But it is about percentages, everything is that has a scaling value with a floor and a ceiling. Floor = 0%, ceiling 100%, which in this case means any shields for 0.33 seconds is the floor while 1150 shields is the ceiling (100% i.e 2.5 seconds of invulnerability), anything in between that is a percentage of the maximum possible shields that can benefit your gate duration i.e 1150 shield. And the reason I bring up 1.33 as the baseline is because it is the number that directly ties into the corrupted mod, since it will grant the old maximum as the ceiling for any frame using it, which is 1.33 seconds. Hence why I've also only talked about frames with those specific base shields (or lower) in relation to the new mod and regarding which will be most beneficial.

I've also pointed out a couple of times over what you say in the part I bolded, that it will depend on other factors aswell. I've never once claimed the mod will be the be all end all option. It will be when you only have mods to rely on to replenish your shields and your frame starts with a 1.33 or shorter shield gate. Because you need significantly less energy per duration gained, fewer slots dedicated to it and allowed many more options for modding in return. Since you practically only need to spend a single mod slot on it aswell as your aura. Which results in every 50 spent will get you to the cap. If you spend the same amount of slots on just conversion mods you end up with 95 shields returned, which will result in half or less gate time. Which is the same time (or more) you'd gain from a 25 energy skill and just aura+corrupted mod, since it would grant you 37.5 shields.

And if you want to utilize the shield gate and better efficiency the corrupted mod becomes more important since it will still allow you to hit good gate values with your most expenive skills that may now cost only 25 energy per cast. However, again, this is only about the frames that end up around the 1.33 second mark or lower and have no other options than mods to replenish their shields. For Grendel it will be a no brainer since his shields are already too small to do anything worthwhile besides stopping 1HKs, which is something further reduced shields will do far better on him since he'll end up at laughably low shields. In my own build it means 2, 3 and 4 will replenish all his shields each cast since I run Breach Surge instead of meatball.

One thing however that concerns me with their wording in the shield gate blog is regarding the maximum and partial shields. Where it seems implied that the gate you actually recieve is based on how much shields you had left when the shield broke, which also seems to imply that overshields will do nothing unless you take a massive hit that fully removes your shields from OS to zero. And that the longest gate of 2.5 seconds will really only happen in similar cases. Which would mean that the corrupted mod becomes even more useful since you can utilize the old gate duration versus even smaller hits aswell while also having longer shield gate potential below that compared to higher shields baseline shields. Though I seriously hope they dont mean it in that way, since if they do frames like Hildryn will practically never benefit from the bonus tied to the passive, while Protea's increased gate from her #1 will be so much better.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But it is about percentages, everything is that has a scaling value with a floor and a ceiling. Floor = 0%, ceiling 100%, which in this case means any shields for 0.33 seconds is the floor while 1150 shields is the ceiling (100% i.e 2.5 seconds of invulnerability), anything in between that is a percentage of the maximum possible shields that can benefit your gate duration i.e 1150 shield. And the reason I bring up 1.33 as the baseline is because it is the number that directly ties into the corrupted mod, since it will grant the old maximum as the ceiling for any frame using it, which is 1.33 seconds. Hence why I've also only talked about frames with those specific base shields (or lower) in relation to the new mod and regarding which will be most beneficial.

It is not percentage based, lower shield  values ramp up the gate duration faster up until the .6-.7ish sec mark meaning that frames with lower base shields wont lose as much benefit from shield gate duration as you think. And even so theres will only be 10 total frames that have lower then 325 shields and of those 11 6 of them are only the non-prime version of said frame.

 

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I've also pointed out a couple of times over what you say in the part I bolded, that it will depend on other factors aswell. I've never once claimed the mod will be the be all end all option. It will be when you only have mods to rely on to replenish your shields and your frame starts with a 1.33 or shorter shield gate. Because you need significantly less energy per duration gained, fewer slots dedicated to it and allowed many more options for modding in return. Since you practically only need to spend a single mod slot on it aswell as your aura. Which results in every 50 spent will get you to the cap. If you spend the same amount of slots on just conversion mods you end up with 95 shields returned, which will result in half or less gate time. Which is the same time (or more) you'd gain from a 25 energy skill and just aura+corrupted mod, since it would grant you 37.5 shields.

And if you want to utilize the shield gate and better efficiency the corrupted mod becomes more important since it will still allow you to hit good gate values with your most expenive skills that may now cost only 25 energy per cast. However, again, this is only about the frames that end up around the 1.33 second mark or lower and have no other options than mods to replenish their shields. For Grendel it will be a no brainer since his shields are already too small to do anything worthwhile besides stopping 1HKs, which is something further reduced shields will do far better on him since he'll end up at laughably low shields. In my own build it means 2, 3 and 4 will replenish all his shields each cast since I run Breach Surge instead of meatball.

Well see heres the thing with brief respite and 2 secondary auger mods either in your secondary or a sentinels will probably just be enough with a single cast of a 75 cost or a double cast of 50 all while not taking up a single slot for the main build unlike catalyzing shields. And another thing if youre using efficiency mods on top you will need to waste even more space on your build, like if you plan on using a 32 cost ability to shield gate with you would not only need the catalyzing shields mod but you would also need 3 auger mods on top get the full shield gate back for most frames and some frames will need 4 nut also theres the efficiency mod on top of that. And a 25 cost gate is even more costly where most frames will need 4 augers and some needing 5. That amount of investment kinda defeats the point of running the mod in the 1st place, realistically all it will do is make shield gates with 50 cost viable.

And in terms of shield gate efficiency theres one mod that will just be better than catalyzing shields the majority of the time and that will be fast deflection. With fast deflection your partial shield regen delay will be shortened to .55 secs and since most partial shield gates will last longer than this .55 secs it means that you will start regening shields during your shield gate which will thus give you even more time during the 2nd gate then ore time during the 3rd ect.. Not only that but you will also gain more benefit from fast deflection by moving around and not getting all the time where as with catalyzing shields you only lose value by avoiding damage. Also if you do manage to get the full 2.5 sec gate you essentially get 2 gates with fast deflection as the shield regen delay from broken is reduced to 2.2 secs which is faster than the 2.5 gate duration.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

One thing however that concerns me with their wording in the shield gate blog is regarding the maximum and partial shields. Where it seems implied that the gate you actually recieve is based on how much shields you had left when the shield broke, which also seems to imply that overshields will do nothing unless you take a massive hit that fully removes your shields from OS to zero. And that the longest gate of 2.5 seconds will really only happen in similar cases. Which would mean that the corrupted mod becomes even more useful since you can utilize the old gate duration versus even smaller hits aswell while also having longer shield gate potential below that compared to higher shields baseline shields. Though I seriously hope they dont mean it in that way, since if they do frames like Hildryn will practically never benefit from the bonus tied to the passive, while Protea's increased gate from her #1 will be so much better.

It will probably work the exact same way it does now where it records your highest amount of shields you had before the break and use that, like how it works now if you have max shields then take a hit that doesnt fully deplete them but then take a second hit that finishes it off you will still get the full amount of shield gate because you had reached full before they had broken. As for overshields I cant see why the wouldnt count towards shield gate time but it is possible that they arent, that part wasnt very clear.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

It is not percentage based, lower shield  values ramp up the gate duration faster up until the .6-.7ish sec mark meaning that frames with lower base shields wont lose as much benefit from shield gate duration as you think. And even so theres will only be 10 total frames that have lower then 325 shields and of those 11 6 of them are only the non-prime version of said frame.

That still means it is based on percentages of the total, it just isnt linear scaling. And it doesnt matter if there are only 10 frames with those shields when it is those frames with those shield values that I refer to. How is that part so hard to notice or grasp?

17 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And in terms of shield gate efficiency theres one mod that will just be better than catalyzing shields the majority of the time and that will be fast deflection. With fast deflection your partial shield regen delay will be shortened to .55 secs and since most partial shield gates will last longer than this .55 secs it means that you will start regening shields during your shield gate which will thus give you even more time during the 2nd gate then ore time during the 3rd ect.. Not only that but you will also gain more benefit from fast deflection by moving around and not getting all the time where as with catalyzing shields you only lose value by avoiding damage. Also if you do manage to get the full 2.5 sec gate you essentially get 2 gates with fast deflection as the shield regen delay from broken is reduced to 2.2 secs which is faster than the 2.5 gate duration.

That isnt how that works. Partial regen delay refers to shields that still have health i.e aslong as the shields dont take damage for 1 second they start regenerating again. The 4 second delay when fully depleted means any moment the shields hit 0, both if you have the full gate ready or just the partial one, no matter if you go from max to zero or one to zero. So Fast deflection will reduce it to 0.55 seconds aslong as there are still shields left, which will still be very powerful on high shield frames, but each moment you hit 0 shields you'll be hit with the 2.2 second delay.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt how that works. Partial regen delay refers to shields that still have health i.e aslong as the shields dont take damage for 1 second they start regenerating again. The 4 second delay when fully depleted means any moment the shields hit 0, both if you have the full gate ready or just the partial one, no matter if you go from max to zero or one to zero. So Fast deflection will reduce it to 0.55 seconds aslong as there are still shields left, which will still be very powerful on high shield frames, but each moment you hit 0 shields you'll be hit with the 2.2 second delay.

You know what youre right, I thought it would count as partial shields if you regened a bit after a break but after testing in game on checking the wiki Ill admit I was wrong. I still dont think catalyzing shields will get much use apart from the very beginning where people are still figuring out the exact numbers while everyone else is looking at the old builds and see the decaying key being used than think oh yea that must be used. What I do see happing for sure tho is an upsurge in pillage usage.

 

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That still means it is based on percentages of the total, it just isnt linear scaling. And it doesnt matter if there are only 10 frames with those shields when it is those frames with those shield values that I refer to. How is that part so hard to notice or grasp?

Youre adding unnecessary confusion by calling it a percentage rather then what it actually is which is just a flat number, if you have this much shield you will have this much shield gate. And as I said 6 of those 11 frames are only for the normal version, prime version has above 325 shields so its actually only 5 frames and of those frames under 325 shields there is only one frame that has lower than 280, in which 280 gives well above 1 sec shield gate, and that is grendel. So yea when a mod only will be useful on 5 out of the 40+ frames and doesnt even give that much value with those frames then yea its a very niche mod that doesnt give much value and probably get used much. Also I say this again, 1.33 sec shield will no longer be the make or break point shield gate builds, my guess is that .8-1sec will be new threshold which judging from the chart wont be hard to achieve just by using a higher costing ability to gate which wont be a problem for most builds as the energy encon for those builds are already more than enough.

Edited October 9, 2023 by (NSW)warfare3376

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

Do we know yet how overshields will effect invulnerability window? While many of you here can make an educated guess, we should wait for update to see how everything will pan out. Maybe some changes will occur between now and then.

[Nira]

As a Harrow main currently on an indefinite break from the game, this news almost has me tempted to reinstall to experiment.

Send halp

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

3 minutes ago, Nira said:

As a Harrow main currently on an indefinite break from the game, this news almost has me tempted to reinstall to experiment.

Send halp

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 14 heures, (PSN)Joylesstuna a dit :

Do we know yet how overshields will effect invulnerability window? While many of you here can make an educated guess, we should wait for update to see how everything will pan out. Maybe some changes will occur between now and then.

Excellent question. 

We still don't have any news about it. 

I keep an eye on Pablo's Twitter to see if he gives an answer before the update. 

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

You know what youre right, I thought it would count as partial shields if you regened a bit after a break but after testing in game on checking the wiki Ill admit I was wrong. I still dont think catalyzing shields will get much use apart from the very beginning where people are still figuring out the exact numbers while everyone else is looking at the old builds and see the decaying key being used than think oh yea that must be used. What I do see happing for sure tho is an upsurge in pillage usage.

Happens mate. And I think you are correct on the pillage thing aswell, and I think the same will go for Condemn. Both will probably be the best solution for any player that wants to prioritize the shield gate in their build if overshields do count as shields when the game determines the gate duration. I'm eagerly awaiting how OP Hildryn might become with pillage, her insanely high shields, extra long gate and the new delay reduction mods along with 50% DR on shields.

15 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Youre adding unnecessary confusion by calling it a percentage rather then what it actually is which is just a flat number, if you have this much shield you will have this much shield gate. And as I said 6 of those 11 frames are only for the normal version, prime version has above 325 shields so its actually only 5 frames and of those frames under 325 shields there is only one frame that has lower than 280, in which 280 gives well above 1 sec shield gate, and that is grendel. So yea when a mod only will be useful on 5 out of the 40+ frames and doesnt even give that much value with those frames then yea its a very niche mod that doesnt give much value and probably get used much. Also I say this again, 1.33 sec shield will no longer be the make or break point shield gate builds, my guess is that .8-1sec will be new threshold which judging from the chart wont be hard to achieve just by using a higher costing ability to gate which wont be a problem for most builds as the energy encon for those builds are already more than enough.

Fair enough. I'm just used to looking at everything in percentages, especially when numbers fluctuate as much as they do here even if the scaling isnt linear. Since there is a huge difference looking at 65, 70, 325 or 1150 instead of 0-100% in all the cases. But to each their own. For me the line isnt drawn at 325 exactly, I'll look at each individual frame around that number together with their kits, and even at higher numbers aswell before I make the choice. However I will very likely not mod for the gate on any frame but Grendel, and on him it is simply because my build will make it so very easy to always sit at 1.33 and because his shields are just so low to start with. You wont notice much of a difference between 19 or 95, even with 50% mitigation instead of 25%.

Whichever ends up being most consistant to sustain will be the choice, so if someone aims for 0.8-1 but it ends up costing more slots, adding the mod and reaching the same gate or up to 1.33 will be more beneficial. Because even with the "high" value of 100 shown as an example by the devs, we need miniscule shields replenished to get to 0.8-1 or even 1.33. And the frames that will benefit from the mod will end up with significantly lower shields, since even the 350 frames will end up at 75 max shields.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm eagerly awaiting how OP Hildryn might become with pillage, her insanely high shields, extra long gate and the new delay reduction mods along with 50% DR on shields.

Hildryn is gonna be damn near unkillable when the update drops, currently what you have to do to keep hildryn alive after her shields break is either do a well timed rolling guard so you can regen some shields during the i-frames to cast pillage or use vazarin or a shield restore pad but after the update launches all you will need is fast deflection since fast deflection alone will reduce the shield regen delay to 2.2 secs and since hildryns full shield gate will be a 3.5 secs shield gate it means that that there will be 1.3 secs where your shields will be regening while you are completely invulnerable. From there you just cast pillage again and it repeats, and unlike the prior methods fast deflection is completely passive, theres no cooldown and its always active so you dont even have to think about it which that alone is a massive buff but then theres also the 50% dr buff too tho there is one very specific situation where the dr buff is actually a slight downgrade but that situation probably wont ever happen so overall its a gigabuff to hildryn and I also am looking forward to it.

 

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Whichever ends up being most consistant to sustain will be the choice, so if someone aims for 0.8-1 but it ends up costing more slots, adding the mod and reaching the same gate or up to 1.33 will be more beneficial. Because even with the "high" value of 100 shown as an example by the devs, we need miniscule shields replenished to get to 0.8-1 or even 1.33. And the frames that will benefit from the mod will end up with significantly lower shields, since even the 350 frames will end up at 75 max shields.

It probably wont end up taking up more space when going for the lower .8-1 sec shield gate unless your trying to gate with a 50 cost ability its more going to be about using less energy. And the thing with catalyzing shield is that the amount of shields you will need to regen will different depending on the frame where as with the natural shield gate it will always be the same for every frame, and if the natural gate is enough for all frames then why bother changing around your builds in order to slot in the new mod when you can just adjust the playstyle instead even if said frame has ow enough shields to take full advantage of. I see the mod being more of a playstyle preference than anything which kinda sucks since its not an exilus,  if it was an exilus I could definitely see it get much more use.

[crimsonspartan1]

Considering the decaying key was never supposed to be beneficial in the first place (much like the other dragon keys), i'd say the changes are needed. Plus i'm glad the overall shield buff is a big buff to Hildryn since her shields go down too fast at higher level content and she need shields to even use her abilities. She's still probably going to lose her shields really easily in high level / steel path content, but at least she should be able to bulk a few more hits until her shields take a hit