Frost doesn't need a rework

[Waeleto]

I see so many people calling for a frost rework now that hydroid's rework was an incredible success and as a frost main i don't think he need a rework
He can use buffs like the ones that yareli received in lua's prey but his kit itself is good, his augments are good and he's IMO fun to play 

[Slayer-.]

2 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

I see so many people calling for a frost rework now that hydroid's rework was an incredible success and as a frost main i don't think he need a rework
He can use buffs like the ones that yareli received in lua's prey but his kit itself is good, his augments are good and he's IMO fun to play 

I concur.

Enough said.  👍

[SDGDen]

13 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

I see so many people calling for a frost rework now that hydroid's rework was an incredible success and as a frost main i don't think he need a rework
He can use buffs like the ones that yareli received in lua's prey but his kit itself is good, his augments are good and he's IMO fun to play 

i recently started testing all of my builds extensively, and i found frost was surprisingly much stronger than i thought. i've genuinely had more issues with ember, banshee, limbo and khora (although in some of those cases it's more of a "still need to tweak my build" situation)

 

if you run archon flow and icy avalanche on frost, your 4 can now strip armor, grant overguard, kill enemies up to a pretty high level outright, hard-CC them if they dont die AND generate energy for your entire team. 

add bubble to hide in so you can cast more safely and you're set. obviously since we're using energy orbs arcane energize and nourish are great options alongside zenurik focus. I also quite like mold reconstruct on him just to add even more support functionality through healing. 

 

[IfritKajiTora]

5 hours ago, Waeleto said:

I see so many people calling for a frost rework now that hydroid's rework was an incredible success and as a frost main i don't think he need a rework
He can use buffs like the ones that yareli received in lua's prey but his kit itself is good, his augments are good and he's IMO fun to play 

I'm Frost main and I have big issues with him compared to other Warframes:

His passive is useless.
His first ability is only for detonating Snow Globes just to remove them, the explosion itself does nothing to enemies.
His second ability is just weaker version of his 4th ability, because 4th ability have 360 AoE range, Freeze enemies and Reduce or remove their armor, while the Ice wave is just adding cold status which is only a small slow and it doesn't reduce enemy armor and it's not a 360AoE, it's forward range is just a little bit longer than Avalanche but overall it's just weaker.

They need to be changed.
Only Snow Globe and Avalanche are good abilities.

Freeze give Cold damage to weapons and team mates weapons if you are using Augment but without Augment it's just useless ability.
The same goes with Ice Wave:
Augment mod slow down enemies by a lot and also slowing next enemies that are entering the zone, but without Augment the ability is useless.

My Build is Augment for 4th ability, instead of 2 I'm using Roar or Gloom, depending on what mission I'm doing. So I'm using only 4th ability and Snow globe and only sometimes Freeze just to remove snow globe.

Edited October 21, 2023 by IfritKajiTora

[Slayer-.]

7 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

i recently started testing all of my builds extensively, and i found frost was surprisingly much stronger than i thought. i've genuinely had more issues with ember, banshee, limbo and khora (although in some of those cases it's more of a "still need to tweak my build" situation)

 

if you run archon flow and icy avalanche on frost, your 4 can now strip armor, grant overguard, kill enemies up to a pretty high level outright, hard-CC them if they dont die AND generate energy for your entire team. 

add bubble to hide in so you can cast more safely and you're set. obviously since we're using energy orbs arcane energize and nourish are great options alongside zenurik focus. I also quite like mold reconstruct on him just to add even more support functionality through healing. 

 

That sounds exactly how I run him, in Steel Path Frost rocks I'm built around the 4th skill, shields handy to stop bullets and overguard capped at 30,000.

I replaced the second ability for dispensary ^{(couldn't think of anything else at the time to put in skill 2)} to help out teammates and me if I get too carried away with casting the 4th skill. 

1st skill will freeze an enemy in their tracks but only use it to blow globes and single targets sometimes.

Frost is so much fun, with a good team in SP Circuit we went to level cap the other week, damn scary and intense for this old geezer after we finished it was a BLAST.

 

[SneakyErvin]

He needs a new passive. Further increased drit damage cap versus enemies afflicted with cold aswell as those fully frozen. Can make it like Hydroid, that any enemy hit by Frost increases the crit damage cap for anyone that attacks them based on their cold/frozen state.

Freeze should get removed and the spot should be taken by Ice Wave. Then give him a new #2, and change globe so we can shoot through it. I wouldnt mind an armor buff as his #2 that also inflicts cold procs versus enemies that attack him (both ranged and melee). It would fit and it would sync with his globe and passive. Bubble destruction can either become part of Ice Wave, or added as a hold mechanic on Snow Globe, which triggers when you look at the center of it and hold the Globe button, much like how Garuda removes altars or Wisp ports to motes.

6 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

I replaced the second ability for dispensary ^{(couldn't think of anything else at the time to put in skill 2)}

Breach Surge, it is just crazy bonkers on Frost if you want to build him for death and destruction. Plus it is another layer of CC for him.

Edited October 21, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[Slayer-.]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

He needs a new passive. Further increased drit damage cap versus enemies afflicted with cold aswell as those fully frozen. Can make it like Hydroid, that any enemy hit by Frost increases the crit damage cap for anyone that attacks them based on their cold/frozen state.

Freeze should get removed and the spot should be taken by Ice Wave. Then give him a new #2, and change globe so we can shoot through it. I wouldnt mind an armor buff as his #2 that also inflicts cold procs versus enemies that attack him (both ranged and melee). It would fit and it would sync with his globe and passive. Bubble destruction can either become part of Ice Wave, or added as a hold mechanic on Snow Globe, which triggers when you look at the center of it and hold the Globe button, much like how Garuda removes altars or Wisp ports to motes.

Breach Surge, it is just crazy bonkers on Frost if you want to build him for death and destruction. Plus it is another layer of CC for him.

I hate Icewave, hence why it's my Helminth slot.

The only Warframe that can shoot into and through a Frost bubble is Mesa's Peacemakers.

I like the hold mechanic better than the other suggestion Ice Wave for obvious reasons. 

Breach Surge IMO sort of needs a reasonable range, I only use a range of 145% 7.25m 4th skill goes great with that range but never thought to try Breach Surge on a config to see how it goes.

[Rakosta_Kai]

44 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

I see so many people calling for a frost rework now that hydroid's rework was an incredible success and as a frost main i don't think he need a rework
He can use buffs like the ones that yareli received in lua's prey but his kit itself is good, his augments are good and he's IMO fun to play 

Agree completely.

I'm not sure why people would be calling for a Frost rework as Frost is a monstrous frame as-is right now and the bulk of other arguments regarding a re-work request are objectively bad.

Don't like Freeze? Helminth.
Don't like the passive? Most passives (especially the early ones) are lackluster anyway. Ask for a pass on passives instead.
Hate Ice Wave? Helminth.

The only truly relevant arguments don't amount to a re-work

Snow Globe removal being tied to Freeze being annoying for some players.
Frost's energy level being somewhat low for a caster-based frame even if it is a ranged CC caster tank. 
 

[(PSN)drollive96]

Frost already got one

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 1 hora, SDGDen dijo:

i've genuinely had more issues with ember, banshee, limbo and khora (although in some of those cases it's more of a "still need to tweak my build" situation)

A ember tank build It's so good.

hace 58 minutos, Slayer-. dijo:

replaced the second ability for dispensary ^{(couldn't think of anything else at the time to put in skill 2)} to help out teammates and me if I get too carried away with casting the 4th skill. 

I think you have done very well. If you use Equilibrium you can literally spam without control.
 

hace 42 minutos, Slayer-. dijo:

Breach Surge IMO sort of needs a reasonable range, I only use a range of 145% 7.25m 4th skill goes great with that range but never thought to try Breach Surge on a config to see how it goes.

I use 235% of range for more avalanche pleasure. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by CosoMalvadoNG

[YUNoJump]

34 minutes ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

Don't like Freeze? Helminth.
Don't like the passive? Most passives (especially the early ones) are lackluster anyway. Ask for a pass on passives instead.
Hate Ice Wave? Helminth.

Helminth shouldn't be how we balance frames though, it's an optional system. A frame should be judged by its base form, not extra stuff like Helminth. Similarly, abilities should be good without needing Augments.

Snow Globe and Avalanche are good, but Freeze and Ice Wave are incredibly lackluster, and "you can remove them" isn't a defence. Hell, you can only subsume one ability, so no matter what you'll still have one lackluster ability left over. I don't think I've ever seen a proper defence for these two abilities.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

10 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Helminth shouldn't be how we balance frames though, it's an optional system. A frame should be judged by its base form, not extra stuff like Helminth. Similarly, abilities should be good without needing Augments.

Snow Globe and Avalanche are good, but Freeze and Ice Wave are incredibly lackluster, and "you can remove them" isn't a defence. Hell, you can only subsume one ability, so no matter what you'll still have one lackluster ability left over. I don't think I've ever seen a proper defence for these two abilities.

Yeah, but how many frames can you say that for? Half of the og cast? 

Loki also has 2 abilities that are pretty useless.

Ash also has a really weak 1 and 3 without augments.

 Equinox 3 in night mode is pretty awful compared to other damage reductions, and her 1 is for her gimmick just like Frost 1 is. 

I could go on...

[Waeleto]

21 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Helminth shouldn't be how we balance frames though, it's an optional system. A frame should be judged by its base form, not extra stuff like Helminth. Similarly, abilities should be good without needing Augments.

Snow Globe and Avalanche are good, but Freeze and Ice Wave are incredibly lackluster, and "you can remove them" isn't a defence. Hell, you can only subsume one ability, so no matter what you'll still have one lackluster ability left over. I don't think I've ever seen a proper defence for these two abilities.

In that case it's not a frost problem it's a warframe problem because so many warframes have 1-2 terrible abilities that are fixed by using helminth and some warframes don't functional entirely withotu a helminth, we rarely see warframes like citrine/harrow/nidus/dagath where the entire kit is good and works well together
as for augments, again so many warframes are dependant on augments like khora/gyre/volt/mirage/rhino/styanax and the list goes on

everything you mentioned is an issue with WARFRAME not an issue with FROST

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 38 minutos, YUNoJump dijo:

Helminth shouldn't be how we balance frames though, it's an optional system. A frame should be judged by its base form, not extra stuff like Helminth. Similarly, abilities should be good without needing Augments.

Snow Globe and Avalanche are good, but Freeze and Ice Wave are incredibly lackluster, and "you can remove them" isn't a defence. Hell, you can only subsume one ability, so no matter what you'll still have one lackluster ability left over. I don't think I've ever seen a proper defence for these two abilities.

You're overreacting.

Each ability has its use, better say that they are not meaningless DPS skills and that way we understand you better.

• Freeze is a good gimmick ability. Can Freeze, Breaks globes and 6 stacks of Cold with the aoe impact  (including minibosses or bosses that are immune to abilities). Should freeze increase the AOE range with skill range? I think so, it's bad that not the case and yes, it is not an AoE with a lot of damage but it does its job. 
• Ice Wave, I personally don't like it. have the only function to put Cold stacks in an area larger than freeze but that's it even with its augment.

The warframe is pretty balanced to what it's supposed to be (CCr, and Protection) well, the passive is pretty meh that's true. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by CosoMalvadoNG

[CatboyPrincess]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Yeah, but how many frames can you say that for? Half of the og cast? 

Loki also has 2 abilities that are pretty useless.

Ash also has a really weak 1 and 3 without augments.

 Equinox 3 in night mode is pretty awful compared to other damage reductions, and her 1 is for her gimmick just like Frost 1 is. 

I could go on...

the OG cast had very basic and mediocre designs even for their time. almost all of them need or have already gotten revisions (sometimes extensive ones).

there are only a few real bangers that haven't needed much tweaking and still hold up.

i make this comment while keeping in mind that simplicity can be a good thing.

[trst]

The only rework Frost ever needed was a rework to Cold status. Which, while kinda underwhelming, we did get with the buff to crit damage. And getting that plus the rework to Icy Avalanche there's no reason for Frost to need further changes.

[(XBOX)Hellsteeth30]

It needs the globe to be able to be shot through by friendlies.

[Rakosta_Kai]

15 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Helminth shouldn't be how we balance frames though, it's an optional system. A frame should be judged by its base form, not extra stuff like Helminth. Similarly, abilities should be good without needing Augments.

Snow Globe and Avalanche are good, but Freeze and Ice Wave are incredibly lackluster, and "you can remove them" isn't a defence. Hell, you can only subsume one ability, so no matter what you'll still have one lackluster ability left over. I don't think I've ever seen a proper defence for these two abilities.

Balance and Choice aren't the same so let's not conflate them.

Replacing an ability you, the player, find no use for is precisely why the Helminth system was added.
You can assert the abilities are lackluster, to you, but other players in this thread are citing an active preference regarding each skill.
And, let's be honest, there are very few frames that don't have at least one objectively lackluster ability in their kit (quite frequently their 1 or 2) . Likewise, there are folks who've spent years leaning on Ice Wave as Frost's most used offensive tool until the adjustments to Avalanche were done and still make good use of it today.

Put simply, It's a matter of preference. 

If, instead, the argument is that "Frost should be as strong as X" or "All X-Frames abilities are good so Frost should be the same way" then the argument is flawed at the outset as Frames don't have parity amongst each other.

Absent that, posting a defense you will find satisfactory of either wastes everyone's time. No one can convince you to like an ability if you don't like it.

The only real argument to be made would be the dependency to use Freeze to remove Globes as that encourages its' presence in Frost's kit even if the player doesn't like the skill.

Arguing for a rework makes no sense in light of that fact either though.

 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 14 minutos, (XBOX)Hellsteeth30 dijo:

It needs the globe to be able to be shot through by friendlies.

Frost is not Gara, I mean your point is maybe valid as some point, But i prefer them to be different. I have wanted many changes for Frost in the past but today none of that is really necessary except for his passive.

Mass Vitrify and Ice Globe are not the same. One is an offensive ability and the other is defensive ability so they don't have to be the same..

[(PSN)Unstar]

I don't recall when, but sometime in the last year Frost got majorly buffed; I think it was in the same update when status procs were reworked.

Frost was arguably falling a bit behind before that, but at present he's a good frame that's well worth using.

[(XBOX)Hellsteeth30]

1 hour ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Frost is not Gara, I mean your point is maybe valid as some point, But i prefer them to be different. I have wanted many changes for Frost in the past but today none of that is really necessary except for his passive.

Mass Vitrify and Ice Globe are not the same. One is an offensive ability and the other is defensive ability so they don't have to be the same..

It's in my way, never mentioned Gara.  In tighter defence missions I can't work.

Especially when they mod for radius, they're up there with troll Limbos.

[Skoomaseller]

i think he needs a buff/change to his passive, 1 and 2. the latter half of his kit is alright. maybe bake in some of his augments as well 

[IfritKajiTora]

32 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

i think he needs a buff/change to his passive, 1 and 2. the latter half of his kit is alright. maybe bake in some of his augments as well 

Exactly this.
Freeze is too small AoE and avalanche just does every better than freeze, armor reduction/removal, large AoE.
Ice wave the same issue, Avalanche just does everything better than Ice Wave.

They are just kind of OK if you don't have energy for Avalanche but 90 or 100% of the time with proper build you always have energy so you just don't use Freeze and Ice Wave.

Those abilities doesn't have any synergy with his Snow Globe and Avalanche or passive.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

5 hours ago, IfritKajiTora said:

I'm Frost main and I have big issues with him compared to other Warframes:

His passive is useless.
His first ability is only for detonating Snow Globes just to remove them, the explosion itself does nothing to enemies.
His second ability is just weaker version of his 4th ability, because 4th ability have 360 AoE range, Freeze enemies and Reduce or remove their armor, while the Ice wave is just adding cold status which is only a small slow and it doesn;t reduce enemy armor and it's not a 360AoE and it's forward range is just a little bit longer than Avalanche but overall it's just weaker.

They need to be changed.
Only Snow Globe and Avalanche are good abilities.

Freeze give Cold damage to weapons and tema mates weapons if you are using Augment but without Augment it's just useless ability.
The same gives with Ice Wave:
Augment mod slow down enemies by a lot and also slowing next enemies that are entering the zone, but without Augment the ability is useless.

My Build is Augment for 4th ability, instead of 2 I'm using Roar or Gloom, depending on what mission I'm doing. So I'm using only 4th ability and Snow globe and only sometimes Freeze just to remove snow globe.

The way you think about his abilities is why you think they are not good. 

His passive is his only weak point.

Frost's 1 can lock down a corridor, freeze a tough enemy and the splash of it gives cold procs, which now bugs crit damage, and slows nearby enemies. Combined with his globe, the explosion causes a dispersion, pushing enemies away from a critical point. Lastly, that augment not only greatly increases weapon damage, it can create a viral weapon instantly, if modded correctly.

His 2 adds critical damage via the new cold proc, slows enemies AND projectiles and doesn't care about obstacles. Slowing enemies in a wide and long range can effectively shut down an entire tile, buying time in mobile defense and make headshots easier for teammates. It's also cheaper to use while still increasing survivability because slow enemies shot less, miss more, react slowly and will get left behind.

His 3 and 4 are legendary, so no further discussions there. 😂

To be honest, Frost is now the most powerful frame in the game, IMO. Armor stripping, slowing, freezing, team armor buffing, team defense supporting, team elemental damage buffing, team crit damage buffing, can super tank and direct aggro....and atop of all of that, now has some of the highest survivability stats for himself AND companions thanks to the new update. I think touching Frost now would be a waste of DE's time. Choose another frame.

 

[IfritKajiTora]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

The way you think about his abilities is why you think they are not good. 

His passive is his only weak point.

Frost's 1 can lock down a corridor, freeze a tough enemy and the splash of it gives cold procs, which now bugs crit damage, and slows nearby enemies. Combined with his globe, the explosion causes a dispersion, pushing enemies away from a critical point. Lastly, that augment not only greatly increases weapon damage, it can create a viral weapon instantly, if modded correctly.

His 2 adds critical damage via the new cold proc, slows enemies AND projectiles and doesn't care about obstacles. Slowing enemies in a wide and long range can effectively shut down an entire tile, buying time in mobile defense and make headshots easier for teammates. It's also cheaper to use while still increasing survivability because slow enemies shot less, miss more, react slowly and will get left behind.

His 3 and 4 are legendary, so no further discussions there. 😂

To be honest, Frost is now the most powerful frame in the game, IMO. Armor stripping, slowing, freezing, team armor buffing, team defense supporting, team elemental damage buffing, team crit damage buffing, can super tank and direct aggro....and atop of all of that, now has some of the highest survivability stats for himself AND companions thanks to the new update. I think touching Frost now would be a waste of DE's time. Choose another frame.

 

For me all that sounds weak.

Freeze slow nearby enemies, yeah cool but avalanche FREEZE enemies reduce or remove armor and it's 360 decently large AoE.

Ice Wave give 35% critical multiplier boost with 6 cold stacks, which isn't a great number but always something. anyway Avalanche is reducing or removing armor so you will do much more damage to enemies that were armored, you can use both on the same enemies but that's additional casting step in this time you could just kill them quicker by just shooting at them after Avalanche that removes armor and stops them from shooting,  also the Augment for Frozen enemies that Frost weapons have 200% critical chance and 200% critical damage bonus.
Ice Wave only Reducing enemy DPS while Avalanche just stops their DPS because of Frozen state.

So anyway Ice Wave and Freeze is still useless, the same as his passive ability need to change.

Edited October 21, 2023 by IfritKajiTora