P L E A S E S A V E Kuva Ogris | Kuva Zarr | Kuva Bramma ! P L E A S E ! ! ! ! !

[Grimme.W]

8小时前 , Venus-Venera 说:

OK. you are relatively new here. therefore probably meant seriously.
Ammo aura and therefore PRIMED ammo ammunition are still missing from the list above.
and now WARNING: even in a group with a lot of people in an ez ext mission you will run out of ammo.

or compare tenet secondary with unlimited ammo and the embarrassing aoe waste. Tenet performs much better and does much more damage and for that I only need 1 buff from Wisp. not even dmg arcanes in warframe.
or another hardcore example: test harrow with roar+2nd skill+(unlimited ammo arcane and a dmg arcane for secondary) with kuva nukor against 20x lvl 190 elite units. Depending on the headshot crits, everyone is dead after 5-10 seconds (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)... and in the party he still has crit from 4 skill and definitely some dmg buffs from party. With my Harrow I can camp in SP Disr without CC. nothing lives there.

I completely agree with your viewpoint.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Grimme.W:

I don't think that if you want to enjoy every battle, you can simply play single player games. With the increasing number of enemies, it is necessary to use these weapons if you want to complete tasks quickly. Reducing the amount of ammunition for these weapons, thereby reducing the player's utilization rate of these weapons and achieving balance, is really absurd

 

what balance? I've been playing since 2013 and there has NEVER been balance.
All popular weapons get ruined when new content comes out and they want to sell new weapons. Otherwise there is no farm motivation for the useless new stuff. or you want people to upgrade other warframes. then all popular warframes will be ruined.
or devs want players to spend a lot more time in the game. therefore there is constant weapon damage/ammo nerfs or whatever.

Primary/secondary weapons used to be trash. and I only played with heavy fire by stropha(mele). So everything changes over time.

It's all about real life cash.

[Aruquae]

12 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

OK. you are relatively new here. therefore probably meant seriously.
Ammo aura and therefore PRIMED ammo ammunition are still missing from the list above.
and now WARNING: even in a group with a lot of people in an ez ext mission you will run out of ammo.

or compare tenet secondary with unlimited ammo and the embarrassing aoe waste. Tenet performs much better and does much more damage and for that I only need 1 buff from Wisp. not even dmg arcanes in warframe.
or another hardcore example: test harrow with roar+2nd skill+(unlimited ammo arcane and a dmg arcane for secondary) with kuva nukor against 20x lvl 190 elite units. Depending on the headshot crits, everyone is dead after 5-10 seconds (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)... and in the party he still has crit from 4 skill and definitely some dmg buffs from party. With my Harrow I can camp in SP Disr without CC. nothing lives there.

Relatively new? Yea I guess so, 2018 is young for most people here. 
The pairing I proposed is a two combo idea. You need both carrier and ammo mutation in order to spam comfortably. Then I pointed out melee and secondaries for the downtime you would spend getting ammo to convert. My personal favorite is xoris, tenet cycron. 
Tbf I only have a Kuva Ogris, but with the above list I can keep ammo. 
Can you elaborate on the calculations you posted? I use Harrow quite a bit (not wisp though) and he works fine with AOE. Of course, there are better options considering the anti synergy because AOE can’t get headshots, but you know… breach surge? 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Malikili
Elaborate not electrcate, what the Hek even is that

[Seele]

1 hour ago, Grimme.W said:

But if the damage from secondary and melee weapons cannot quickly clear the enemy, all that remains is death.

 

So mod and/or learn to use your secondary and melee better.

Again, either contend with the drawbacks of launchers, or use something different. Countless other players have no issue clearing an entire game with launchers, so it's clearly possible if you use them correctly.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

On 2023-11-27 at 3:15 AM, Grimme.W said:

When I see these weapons running out of ammunition, I feel very panicked;

gotta learn to use more than just AoE spam then. 

bets way to use these weapons now is to take a secondary with good ammo economy, and juts use the Bramma/Ogris for large groups and eximus enemies: situations where you need the extra firepower. that way, they're useful, and even if they don't kill the big guys outright, it'll weaken them and clear any trash mobs surrounding them so you can get a clean shot or cast on them.

you could also use carrier, ammo mutation, ammo pads.. there's plenty of ways to make them more usable, as long as you're not relying on them 100% of the time.

 

[0_The_F00l]

Players recommending others to play solo or a different game should take their own advice in my opinion.

Edited November 28, 2023 by 0_The_F00l

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Malikili:

Relatively new? Yea I guess so, 2018 is young for most people here. 
The pairing I proposed is a two combo idea. You need both carrier and ammo mutation in order to spam comfortably. Then I pointed out melee and secondaries for the downtime you would spend getting ammo to convert. My personal favorite is xoris, tenet cycron. 
Tbf I only have a Kuva Ogris, but with the above list I can keep ammo. 
Can you electorate on the calculations you posted? I use Harrow quite a bit (not wisp though) and he works fine with AOE. Of course, there are better options considering the anti synergy because AOE can’t get headshots, but you know… breach surge? 

!!!!

xoris, tenet cycron <-----

I've been playing with the combo for several years and can't think of anything else at the moment.
stropha heavy attack used to be very epic. but the current aoe from xoris is very, very good

Breach Surge <- havent tested this atm

don't understand the last section. Google translate has problems with this.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Venus-Venera

[crimsonspartan1]

The only thing i disliked about the AOE ammunition nerf is that it basically nerfed the Primary and Secondary Merciless arcanes by removing the bonus ammo max bonus it gave so it only had the +30% reload bonus and the damage bonus while Primary Deadhead still got to keep it's damage buff, it's -50% recoil and it's +30% headshot multiplier making that one of the much better arcanes by a long shot unless you use AOE weapons. 

I get why they nerfed it to reduce AOE spam, but admittedly would've preferred they reduced it to like +50% ammo max or maybe give a small about of ammo mutation instead (and while not related to the topic, Primary / Secondary Dexterity should also get an extra effect since it only has it's damage bonus and combo duration increase since the holster change happened and rendered Dexterity's holster buff useless so it got removed, and i don't think anyone uses it outside of maybe people who run secondaries and glaives a whole bunch, but even then deadhead or something else would just be better)

[Aruquae]

27 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

!!!!

xoris, tenet cycron <-----

I've been playing with the combo for several years and can't think of anything else at the moment.
stropha heavy attack used to be very epic. but the current aoe from xoris is very, very good

Breach Surge <- havent tested this atm

don't understand the last section. Google translate has problems with this.

Ahhh yes yes

I was saying Harrow doesn’t really work with explosive weapons because he can’t get headshots with the explosions

He can still give crit chance though. I suggest breach surge with the combo, it’s very fun

[(XBOX)Player244024418]

On 2023-11-26 at 9:21 PM, (PSN)Hikuro-93 said:

The low ammo economy on those weapons was very much intended. And the intended solution is for you not to rely solely in huge AoE explosions and use other weapons/frame skills while you do get ammo

I was a noob in a bow-only mission and picked the Bramma. Little did I know. Now, I never use my heavily forma'd bramma. If I need a bow I choose nataruk. DE killed the Bramma for me. It was too much.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Player244024418 said:

I was a noob in a bow-only mission and picked the Bramma. Little did I know. Now, I never use my heavily forma'd bramma. If I need a bow I choose nataruk. DE killed the Bramma for me. It was too much.

Same, actually. I'll use it only with other weapons, if I do use it at all.

Atm I'm trying to slowly max my lich weapon collection, Bramma included. I plan to eventually get a 60% toxin one so I can free up a slot for more ammo economy, while maintaining viral.

It might do the trick, it might not, but I'll at least try to make it a bit usable instead of just leaving it to gather dust. I don't even need it to obliterate everything in sight, just for it to be passable in Steel Path for the way I play, so I'm a tad hopeful.

I've thought about rivens, sentinels and whatnot - they'd sure help a bit, and if I need them I'll use them but I rather not depend on outside factors as much as I can. Who knows.

Edited November 29, 2023 by (PSN)Hikuro-93

[C486]

Kitguns with Pax charge want a word. Same with Energized Munitions.

[SDGDen]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)Player244024418 said:

I was a noob in a bow-only mission and picked the Bramma. Little did I know. Now, I never use my heavily forma'd bramma. If I need a bow I choose nataruk. DE killed the Bramma for me. It was too much.

honestly, it only "killed" the bramma as a general main-use weapon, it's now a *very* effective "specialist" weapon like it's supposed to be and there's a fair number of specific builds that are great with it.

i actually made a wukong build with dispensary that gives the clone practically infinite ammo, combine with a glaive or gunblade for yourself and you can just set up in a room and vibe, works like a charm for defense-related objectives. with vastilok you even still have a way to strip armor through shattering impact. 

 

anything with a big AOE is supposed to be a specialist weapon, not just "spam it everywhere all the time with zero consequences", since in a scenario where weapons like the bramma have practically infinite ammo, rifles, snipers and even shotguns simply cannot compete. 

 

i do agree with someone a bit earlier into this thread though, it'd have been better if the ammo nerf was less severe and DE re-introduced self-damage (except not as ASS as it was in the past) as a way of balancing AOE weapons. something like AOE weapons dealing self damage equal to the weapons unmodded, non-crit damage or something. the bramma at base only deals 187 damage which would mean you wouldn't one-shot yourself with it. 

or they could give heavy units "AOE resistance" to give single-target weapons like snipers a more defined role. 

[(XBOX)Player244024418]

4 hours ago, SDGDen said:

and DE re-introduced self-damage

My goodness no. Please no. Have you ever used AoE and not had PSF while your squad mates constantly step in front of you a split second before you shoot or run through you from behind in a mech or something just as you're shooting? No. No. No. I would probably stop playing it would be really bad. That happens to me all the time on frames without PSF. SP would be unplayable because your stagger would get you killed.

Additionally the fact your squad mate is unaffected but you are is even more No piled on top of No when justifying the mental gymnastics of this ridiculousness .

[Venus-Venera]

Am 28.11.2023 um 16:21 schrieb Malikili:

Ahhh yes yes

I was saying Harrow doesn’t really work with explosive weapons because he can’t get headshots with the explosions

He can still give crit chance though. I suggest breach surge with the combo, it’s very fun

bubonico worked well to my surprise. Unfortunately, reloading doesn't do anything for recharge. I even put primary dreadhead in there. because with 4th skills I often see 400k headshot crits on sp and there is no screen shaking.
He may have been very epic as an aoe gunner before. But it's too bad that something like 200% reload speed is a waste for primaries. maybe for single target stuff only

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

AoE meta was cancer, let it die. There's 500 weapons in the game a little variety wont kill you

[TheSteelMushroom]

Honestly they're not gonna change it because they don't want automation so you might as well move on to Incarnon weapons which are much stronger or whatever AOEs that they haven't nerfed like the Kuva Tonkor, Tenet tetra, Tenet Envoy, Tenet Plinx, good glaive weapons or Bubonico. The whole change was stupid because ammo is more annoyingly scarce which doesn't encourage us to use our whole loadout because most secondaries are garbage and haven't been improved and melees are still nerfed. It's double standard since they didn't touch certain other AOE weapons and later added the Tenet Plinx while leaving the certain kuva weapons unsustainable with ammo or handicapped with ammo mods/helminth.   

Edited December 2, 2023 by TheSteelMushroom

[Venus-Venera]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb TheSteelMushroom:

Honestly they're not gonna change it because they don't want automation so you might as well move on to Incarnon weapons which are much stronger or whatever AOEs that they haven't nerfed like the Kuva Tonkor, Tenet tetra, Tenet Envoy, Tenet Plinx, good glaive weapons or Bubonico. The whole change was stupid because ammo is more annoyingly scarce which doesn't encourage us to use our whole loadout because most secondaries are garbage and haven't been improved and melees are still nerfed. It's double standard since they didn't touch certain other AOE weapons and later added the Tenet Plinx while leaving the certain kuva weapons unsustainable with ammo or handicapped with ammo mods/helminth.   

I think so too. and as I wrote earlier, it's all about longer time in the game. so they obviously just wanted to push players online higher.
However, I find that nonsense. because before that I didn't play much either. But only then was it fun. so with cool bows like bramma and disp skill camping in a def mission. Who could care about something like that? But now you can't even stand still because ammunition keeps running out. and no way you can get enough ammo.

[Dunkelheit]

There is no problem with said weapons, there is only a problem with expectations. If you expect to just brammafly through the levels, killing everything without even aiming, you are in the wrong game. Play Vampire Survivors.

Bramma and Zarr was a cancer to the game and it is good that they are no longer played. The worse thing is though that the nerfs were not that active and I can easily play those weapons without any hassle, if you know how to mod and shoot.

[Phoenix_Rose]

I used to use the Kuva Zarr every day. Now im using either the Cedo or Phenmore. Just adapt like i did.

 

Previously i wouldn't use any other weapons other than my beloved Kuva Zarr. But i tried other top tier weapons and im loving them

[SDGDen]

On 2023-11-29 at 1:51 PM, (XBOX)Player244024418 said:

My goodness no. Please no. Have you ever used AoE and not had PSF while your squad mates constantly step in front of you a split second before you shoot or run through you from behind in a mech or something just as you're shooting? No. No. No. I would probably stop playing it would be really bad. That happens to me all the time on frames without PSF. SP would be unplayable because your stagger would get you killed.

Additionally the fact your squad mate is unaffected but you are is even more No piled on top of No when justifying the mental gymnastics of this ridiculousness .

i never use surefooted. im fine. learn some situational awareness and you wont ever blow yourself up. risk/reward. that's how balancing AOE weapons is supposed to work.

genuinely, if you HAVE to use PSF to make AOE weapons usable, that's a skill issue on your part. 

 

also, SP wouldnt be unplayable. just.... dont use an AOE weapon if you dont have the skill to avoid having it explode in your face.

its not mental gymnastics or ridiculousness, it's a simple objective fact that when self damage was replaced with self-stagger, AOE weapons surged in popularity because they're unreasonably effective without a proper downside.

the only reason the ammo economy on AOE weapons is as S#&amp;&#036; as it is now is because DE cant re-introduce self damage without the forums throwing a hissy-fit over nothing. that's reality. if DE had the option of balancing AOE weapons through self-damage, they wouldn't have to go as hard on the ammo. they cant do that so their only choice is to nerf ammo into the ground.

[ShogunGunshow]

The AoE nerfs were absolutely needed, which is why it's double-dog stupid that DE made sh*t like the Torid incarnon, which is like an unnerfed kuva nukor on steroids. A lot of the incarnons are stupid in that way.

[(PSN)PanserKunst]

The Stahlta works just fine. Invest the time and effort to obtain it, and you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. 

Does Wuclone use Alt-Fire?

Oh, nevermind.

[Skoomaseller]

why are ppl talking like the AOE meta went away lol it just shifted from the bramma and zarr to the incarnons

aoe will always be king

[Dunkelheit]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Skoomaseller:

why are ppl talking like the AOE meta went away lol it just shifted from the bramma and zarr to the incarnons

aoe will always be king

Just for the sake of it, I played Bramma again. You cannot compare that monster to any Incarnon, even the Torid is very, very weak in comparison.