Why "armor" again?

[Terridaks.]

Was looking at the lore notes in the Operator Report, and came across the following sentence in "1_Operator.txt": 

• The TENNO piloted WARFRAMES, suits of sophisticated battle armor.

Again! Why the armor/suit? Warframes are not armor in any sense. Here's the definition of armor: defensive covering for the body.

Warframes are drones, biomachines, anything, but armor/suits.  Operators don't "wear" drones.

You can invoke the unreliable narrator effect. But who in the game's universe believes, and directly says, that warframes are armor? 

 

[Pakaku]

Considering what warframes actually are, a "suit of armour" is actually pretty accurate, physically and metaphorically, just probably not in the way said narrator thinks

Edited November 28, 2023 by Pakaku

[trst]

But they are armor considering the original frames were regular people mutated until their skin literally became metal.

Excerpt from the Vitruvian: 

Spoiler

We took our greatest, volunteers or not, and polluted them with these cultured reagents. They transformed. They became Infested... but only just. Their skin blossomed into sword-steel. Their organs, interlinked with untold resilience. Yet their minds were free of the Infested madness.

Plus they are an indirect defense for the Operator's body by being an extension of them. As Operators need not put themselves into physical danger while piloting a frame. And even when they do pop out into battle they can always hop back into their frame (or anything else they can transfer into).

 

But even if you don't want to accept that as a reasoning know that the word "armor" can also refer to military vehicles. Which is also how frames function for Operators.

[quxier]

Wasn't Mirage described as "wearing frame"?

[Nobodys-Perfect]

It's a callback to Dark Sector for the most part. It's how it was before the operators as a concept coalesced and got fleshed out into what they are today.  Warframes being remote controlled golems is similar to how we might've assumed orokin towers aren't made of meat until the plains of eidolon update revealed that.

The 1999 update trailer shows Warframes like excal as battle suits as per their original concept, Whether this is going to be an alternate universe/timeline thing or actually be set in the past of Warframe is up to speculation for now,  but you can probably expect it to be explained in the future.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Words can and often do have a few different definitions and thus applications in communication, or communicating an idea. I can sympathise with ones potential frustration or preferences, since for some, armour in this context may not be the most interesting, or accurate of framing, but as the arbiter of all facts, truths, language, definitions and run on sentences, I judge its use by the lore notes adequate.

[Terridaks.]

5 часов назад, trst сказал:

But they are armor considering the original frames were regular people mutated until their skin literally became metal.

Excerpt from the Vitruvian: 

  Показать контент

We took our greatest, volunteers or not, and polluted them with these cultured reagents. They transformed. They became Infested... but only just. Their skin blossomed into sword-steel. Their organs, interlinked with untold resilience. Yet their minds were free of the Infested madness.

Plus they are an indirect defense for the Operator's body by being an extension of them. As Operators need not put themselves into physical danger while piloting a frame. And even when they do pop out into battle they can always hop back into their frame (or anything else they can transfer into).

 

But even if you don't want to accept that as a reasoning know that the word "armor" can also refer to military vehicles. Which is also how frames function for Operators.

Mutation =/= armor. You can't take off or put on the mutation. The infestation irreversibly changes your body to the core.

"As Operators need not put themselves into physical danger while piloting a frame." - which literally means that operators control the drones from a distance. 

The meaning of military vehicle cannot be used here. The phrase "suit of armor" directly contradicts this.

 

5 часов назад, quxier сказал:

Wasn't Mirage described as "wearing frame"?

Idk: "Mirage's sleight of hand complements her might. Her dazzled foes take heavy damage. Doppelgangers, lasers, and traps are elements of her stagecraft."

 

53 минуты назад, Nobodys-Perfect сказал:

It's a callback to Dark Sector for the most part. It's how it was before the operators as a concept coalesced and got fleshed out into what they are today.  Warframes being remote controlled golems is similar to how we might've assumed orokin towers aren't made of meat until the plains of eidolon update revealed that.

The 1999 update trailer shows Warframes like excal as battle suits as per their original concept, Whether this is going to be an alternate universe/timeline thing or actually be set in the past of Warframe is up to speculation for now,  but you can probably expect it to be explained in the future.

I hope so. I remember DE didn't change the old description of the tenno from the official web page for a long time after the Second Dream. Tenno were also described there as costume wearers, which was outright misinformation.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Terridaks.

[CephalonCarnage]

6 hours ago, Terridaks. said:

Was looking at the lore notes in the Operator Report, and came across the following sentence in "1_Operator.txt": 

• The TENNO piloted WARFRAMES, suits of sophisticated battle armor.

Again! Why the armor/suit? Warframes are not armor in any sense. Here's the definition of armor: defensive covering for the body.

Warframes are drones, biomachines, anything, but armor/suits.  Operators don't "wear" drones.

You can invoke the unreliable narrator effect. But who in the game's universe believes, and directly says, that warframes are armor? 

 

Armour is a reference to any hardened unit. Tanks are called "armour" in military terms.

[Terridaks.]

7 минут назад, CephalonCarnage сказал:

Armour is a reference to any hardened unit. Tanks are called "armour" in military terms.

But not "suits of armor".

[schilds]

Yeah it's fine. Not everything needs to be taken literally.

Besides:

6 hours ago, Terridaks. said:

You can invoke the unreliable narrator effect. But who in the game's universe believes, and directly says, that warframes are armor?

I'd turn that question around. Who in the game's universe knows they're remotely controlled by children with void powers? Probably not that many, though with recent events that number may be growing, most people most likely think it's someone in an an armoured suit.

[Terridaks.]

51 минуту назад, schilds сказал:

Yeah it's fine. Not everything needs to be taken literally.

Besides:

I'd turn that question around. Who in the game's universe knows they're remotely controlled by children with void powers? Probably not that many, though with recent events that number may be growing, most people most likely think it's someone in an an armoured suit.

The problem is that the wording the DEs give directly misleads players about the nature of the game character. And it's not a play on words, no. The DEs themselves invented this substitution of words to cover up the retcon. 

"Who in the game's universe knows they're remotely controlled by children with void powers?": Captain Vor, Lotus, Queens, Ballas, Quills, Palladino. Possibly Teshin, Arbiters of Hexis and Nora. These are just the ones I remembered immediately.
Now who claims tenno wear warframes as costumes?

[schilds]

45 minutes ago, Terridaks. said:

The problem is that the wording the DEs give directly misleads players about the nature of the game character.

Only if you interpret it literally and pedantically. Maybe the npc who wrote the operator report believes themselves a poet?

45 minutes ago, Terridaks. said:

"Who in the game's universe knows they're remotely controlled by children with void powers?": Captain Vor, Lotus, Queens, Ballas, Quills, Palladino. Possibly Teshin, Arbiters of Hexis and Nora. These are just the ones I remembered immediately.

That wasn't some kind of test of how quickly/easily you could come up with a handful of names ...

It was a question about the relative number of people in the game's universe who know how warframes work. Look who you named. Orokin, Corpus, Tenno and Grineer elite/leaders. Some of who may have only learned recently. A whole part of Alad V's storyline is him trying to figure what warframes are. Out of how many millions or billions of people?

You made a comment about "unreliable narrators" and asked

Quote

But who in the game's universe believes, and directly says, that warframes are armor? 

Well. The answer is that it's likely that *plenty* of npcs would call it "armour", and DE inventing/introducing someone who uses that word isn't outside the bounds of believability.

The "operator report" is written by someone in the game universe. It really isn't that strange that the author might call warframes "armour". Heck, it isn't even that strange that someone might call them "armour" *even* if they know they are remotely piloted via void powers. You know *how* I know the existence of such an npc is believable? Because there are plenty of *real* people who call frames "armour" even though they know how frames are controlled. The evidence is this thread.

Quote

Now who claims tenno wear warframes as costumes?

Plenty of npcs we haven't met. It's not like Warframe is a game with massive amounts of npc interaction. It has a curated set of interactions decided on by DE. 

In fact, the *very* introduction to an npc that calls them armoured suits *is* the operator report. Like, why is this even a question. It's *right in front of you*. The person who wrote it is probably one of those annoying people who will argue you to death on internet forums and go around justifying sloppy language with all sorts of stupidity. Both you and I know those sorts of people exist - and so having one as an npc in a game is entirely reasonable.

 

Quote

The problem is that the wording the DEs give directly misleads players about the nature of the game character.

Why is this a problem? A significant part of the game's mystique comes from guessing the true nature of frames.

Edited November 28, 2023 by schilds

[Aruquae]

Armor protects the wearer

The operator technically wears the Warframe because they can control it through Bluetooth. Bluetooth protects wearer, Warframe is Bluetooth. 
Thus Bluetooth+Armor=Warframe

[Alguien]

2 hours ago, Terridaks. said:

which literally means that operators control the drones from a distance. 

So we are going to completly ignore the part about Operators projecting their bodies into the Frames and using them as extensions of themselves to make this debate, right?
Hell, there are scenes like in The War Within where the Operator walks out of the Frame like in Power Armor. Or Little Duck telling you to "lose the rig" if you want to talk to her.

[CephalonCarnage]

37 minutes ago, schilds said:

It was a question about the relative number of people in the game's universe who know how warframes work. Look who you named. Orokin, Corpus, Tenno and Grineer elite/leaders. Some of who may have only learned recently. A whole part of Alad V's storyline is him trying to figure what warframes are. Out of how many millions or billions of people?

and don't forget Alad V is an Orokin!

IIRC there's a lore piece where some character explains "warframes are real?" like they thoughtr they were a myth.

7 minutes ago, Alguien said:

So we are going to completly ignore the part about Operators projecting their bodies into the Frames and using them as extensions of themselves to make this debate, right?
Hell, there are scenes like in The War Within where the Operator walks out of the Frame like in Power Armor. Or Little Duck telling you to "lose the rig" if you want to talk to her.

Nope. The operator doesn't teleport themselves into the warframes, but has a "void ghost" (for want of better words) that can be projected. The operator cannot be physically present - you can manifest operator in space (eg eris extract) or in heavily infested missions, and then your operator would be dead. So it must be a magic projection rather than physical. Its a shame they forgot to prevent operators from picking stuff up or it'd be clearer. Now that doesn't mean it isn't so obvious to NPCs who see this kid appear and think its a solid person. Maybe this is also why you need to appear as operator to access certain areas like the Quills - you don't physically appear and the "door" is really a solid wall you walk through.

[Genitive]

6 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

Nope. The operator doesn't teleport themselves into the warframes, but has a "void ghost" (for want of better words) that can be projected. The operator cannot be physically present - you can manifest operator in space (eg eris extract) or in heavily infested missions, and then your operator would be dead. So it must be a magic projection rather than physical. Its a shame they forgot to prevent operators from picking stuff up or it'd be clearer. Now that doesn't mean it isn't so obvious to NPCs who see this kid appear and think its a solid person. Maybe this is also why you need to appear as operator to access certain areas like the Quills - you don't physically appear and the "door" is really a solid wall you walk through.

If that was correct then Ballas wouldn't have been able to knock us into the void.

And you don't need to look far for an example of the teleportation. Operator can teleport back to their char from any point in the orbiter.

[mariberry-hearn]

18 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

and don't forget Alad V is an Orokin!

Alad V isn't Orokin. Hunhow is just massively misanthropic and lumps all humanity into the Orokin category, he doesn't care about distinctions.

[Terridaks.]

1 час назад, schilds сказал:

Only if you interpret it literally and pedantically. Maybe the npc who wrote the operator report believes themselves a poet?

That wasn't some kind of test of how quickly/easily you could come up with a handful of names ...

It was a question about the relative number of people in the game's universe who know how warframes work. Look who you named. Orokin, Corpus, Tenno and Grineer elite/leaders. Some of who may have only learned recently. A whole part of Alad V's storyline is him trying to figure what warframes are. Out of how many millions or billions of people?

You made a comment about "unreliable narrators" and asked

Well. The answer is that it's likely that *plenty* of npcs would call it "armour", and DE inventing/introducing someone who uses that word isn't outside the bounds of believability.

The "operator report" is written by someone in the game universe. It really isn't that strange that the author might call warframes "armour". Heck, it isn't even that strange that someone might call them "armour" *even* if they know they are remotely piloted via void powers. You know *how* I know the existence of such an npc is believable? Because there are plenty of *real* people who call frames "armour" even though they know how frames are controlled. The evidence is this thread.

Plenty of npcs we haven't met. It's not like Warframe is a game with massive amounts of npc interaction. It has a curated set of interactions decided on by DE. 

In fact, the *very* introduction to an npc that calls them armoured suits *is* the operator report. Like, why is this even a question. It's *right in front of you*. The person who wrote it is probably one of those annoying people who will argue you to death on internet forums and go around justifying sloppy language with all sorts of stupidity. Both you and I know those sorts of people exist.

 

Why is this a problem? A significant part of the game's mystique comes from guessing the true nature of frames.

First, the DEs themselves claim that this site is a compilation of actual lore to refresh your memory. Secondly it immediately breaks the fourth wall by mentioning the game in the next post: "These files reveal details of events before and during the game, tread carefully Tenno!".

Based on this alone, we can assert that the character on whose behalf the narrative is told is a hero-resonator (a character who speaks from the author's position).

More to the point, this character is just a device:

"It is Albrecht Entrati whom this device serves.

It is Albrecht Entrati who has instructed us to locate the chosen Operator."

It records reports in dry, protocolized language. It would be irrational for him to use any ambiguity.

As for the characters, listing them is important because they are the characters we come in contact with. How do we know someone thinks warframes are costumes if no one talks about it? Without that element, you're making the same mistake as conspiracy theorists who claim that if some scientific theory isn't true, it automatically means magic exists.
We have Leverian, we have Inaros' quest where warframes are described as demigods in their own right, without any suspicion of costumes.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Terridaks.

[schilds]

Quote

How do we know someone thinks warframes are costumes if no one talks about it? Without that element, you're making the same mistake as conspiracy theorists who claim that if some scientific theory isn't true, it automatically means magic exists.

It is complete and utter nonsense to compare fan-theory-crafting about a *work of fiction* to science.

Warframe is a work of fiction. We can't investigate or probe most of the Warframe universe without prodding DE into releasing more details. It doesn't exist outside of someone's head.

By your logic, you can just as easily argue that it's only sensible to believe the only npcs that exist in the Warframe universe are the 20 or so we've directly interacted with.

In fact, when it comes to *fiction*, it's the opposite of what you say. Authors don't intend their audience to only believe in the existence of those things they write directly about. They intend to create the illusion of a universe that exists beyond their direct writings. Otherwise they've failed. Imagine believing that in any novel you read, only the 20 or so characters directly in the story are the only ones who exist in the world ...

In any case, if that's your logic, why don't you believe the evidence provided by the "operator report" that such an npc exists? We don't *need* to imagine the existence of such an npc (that refers to frames as "armoured suits") un-written by DE, because they've now written one. 

Quote

we can assert that the character

Does whatever DE wants it to do, speaks from their position when they want it to, speaks unreliably when they decide they want it to do that, speaks in tongues when they feel that's instead appropriate.

Edited November 28, 2023 by schilds

[SneakyErvin]

9 hours ago, Terridaks. said:

Was looking at the lore notes in the Operator Report, and came across the following sentence in "1_Operator.txt": 

• The TENNO piloted WARFRAMES, suits of sophisticated battle armor.

Again! Why the armor/suit? Warframes are not armor in any sense. Here's the definition of armor: defensive covering for the body.

Warframes are drones, biomachines, anything, but armor/suits.  Operators don't "wear" drones.

You can invoke the unreliable narrator effect. But who in the game's universe believes, and directly says, that warframes are armor? 

 

Because it is all accurate considering very few actually know/knew what Tenno and Warframes actually are/were. Which also answers your last question with a "most".

23 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

Nope. The operator doesn't teleport themselves into the warframes, but has a "void ghost" (for want of better words) that can be projected. The operator cannot be physically present - you can manifest operator in space (eg eris extract) or in heavily infested missions, and then your operator would be dead. So it must be a magic projection rather than physical. Its a shame they forgot to prevent operators from picking stuff up or it'd be clearer. Now that doesn't mean it isn't so obvious to NPCs who see this kid appear and think its a solid person. Maybe this is also why you need to appear as operator to access certain areas like the Quills - you don't physically appear and the "door" is really a solid wall you walk through.

They arent inside the frame, but the frame is an anchor to them which also lets them physically manifest on the field of battle by exiting the frame. They are just beyond the point of physical or void, which is likely why the infested can do nothing to them. And how they survive in space is either due to their suits or simply due to them being part void aswell. As to the operator picking things up, I think that makes it more clear they are physically there, since if you transfer back you drop what you are holding in your hands. Which is a mechanic specific to the operator, since the frame still holds whatever they held in their hands as you transfer out of them.

It likely has something to do with conceptualized embodyment that the tenno can control to dematerialize and transfer themselves (and their equipment) to where they want aslong as there is an anchor such as the frame, chair or necramech nearby. If all those are gone and the tenno goes down it would likely end up dying or becoming pure void or something. The chair seems to be the true anchor since it spans far and wide, while the other things need to be far closer.

[Terridaks.]

50 минут назад, Alguien сказал:

So we are going to completly ignore the part about Operators projecting their bodies into the Frames and using them as extensions of themselves to make this debate, right?
Hell, there are scenes like in The War Within where the Operator walks out of the Frame like in Power Armor. Or Little Duck telling you to "lose the rig" if you want to talk to her.

They use them as teleportation points. It's a weird teleportation, and yet the tennos aren't physically in the warframe at the moment of piloting. I'm referring to the same War Within quest. Particularly the moment when the Queen tries to get into the operator's head.

[Terridaks.]

26 минут назад, SneakyErvin сказал:

Because it is all accurate considering very few actually know/knew what Tenno and Warframes actually are/were. Which also answers your last question with a "most".

There is no evidence that most people think warframes are specifically suits. Instead, there is only evidence that commoners see warframes as gods of war in their own right.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

10 hours ago, Terridaks. said:

Here's the definition of armor: defensive covering for the body.

by this logic, basically anything can be armor: if I grab a bunch of thick magazines and wrap them around my body with tape so that it protects me from zombie bites, that's armor, because it's protecting my body. would it protect me from everything? no, but it will from something, so the definition fits.

warframes are definitely a form of armor; the operator is protected by the warframe, only when it is destroyed is the operator in any real danger. I suppose a more appropriate word would be "exosuits", since they are also focused on enhancing the operator's abilities and converting their raw void energy into something else. the fact that warframes are humanoid though, and are styled to look like elaborate armor sets, is the reason why they are just referred to as "armor"

[0_The_F00l]

I wouldn't bother myself too much with the terms being used ,

DE is not the best at having "hidden but meaningful" lore threads that time well together.

They mostly make things as they go.

For your head canon you can imagine most of the info you read is public facing, and is intended to obscure the truth. Only those that have dived deeper uncover the truth over time.

[Alguien]

1 hour ago, CephalonCarnage said:

The operator cannot be physically present - you can manifest operator in space (eg eris extract) or in heavily infested missions, and then your operator would be dead.

This is based on the premise that operators are still physically human and have the same limitations as a person, which is a false premise.
Not to mention as @Genitive pointed out, Ballas stabbing the Operator only works in the concept that the Operator is physically there. And considering Ballas literally say "You can't kill the devil" I think is pretty clear Operators can survive things that would have killed a normal human.

 

18 minutes ago, Terridaks. said:

They use them as teleportation points. It's a weird teleportation, and yet the tennos aren't physically in the warframe at the moment of piloting. I'm referring to the same War Within quest. Particularly the moment when the Queen tries to get into the operator's head.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the confusion comes from how there are multiple methods of transference
The Somatic Link, that the Operator uses prior to the War Within, uses technology to do a temporary two-way transference of the mind
Kuva, which replaces the "weaker" mind and is more permantent
And the Operator uses their Void powers, which is the method used after the War Within, and is more teleportation in a way, due to the Operators being more "void stuff"
I am basing this on Ordis saying "The Transference system are fried" and the Operator responding "I don't need them anymore"
Granted, I don't have an excuse for the T-Posing beam with this.