[SPOILER] Albrecht and Loid

[GovernmentSecrets.gov]

After having some time to think about it, my biggest issue with the story is how much focus Loid gets instead of that time being used to focus on the real conflict. The literal eldritch entity who has already partially crossed over into our world and is actively attempting to fully cross over. Regardless of how depressed Loid is about Albrecht's departure I'd think that the giant eldritch monstrosity with a history of malice would be top priority. There isn't time to waste in a life or death situation, but here we are.

Spoiler

Also teasing a giant mech battle and not delivering was so incredibly disappointing to the point words cannot do it justice. They squared up like it was about to get real and then they just hug it out instantly. Like what?! DE why??? That would've been such an explosive pay off... I was so excited and got immediately shot down. That would've been so cool... 

 

 

5 hours ago, bigsstr said:

after playing the quest I couldn't wait to see just how many homophobes will get mad at two fictional characters being possibly in love

and dare I say I was not let down THANK YOU DE 😎

 

Why would you want to see people upset over that? This sounds like a Twitter vendetta.

4 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I don't trust Albrecht. Like, at all. Based on everything we've heard about how he operates, he's probably still manipulating Loid.

With that aspect of Albrecht's character being brought up multiple times it might be something of a Chekov's gun situation where it will become relevant later.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Sierra
Spoiler was not spaced far enough from the quote making it easy to miss.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

While I agree that it's helpful to take context into account and be compassionate even to people we have differences with, being homophobic is being bigoted.  Regardless of where we place the blame, whenever homophobia happens, bigotry is by definition happening.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Sierra said:

After having some time to think about it, my biggest issue with the story is how much focus Loid gets instead of that time being used to focus on the real conflict. The literal eldritch entity who has already partially crossed over into our world and is actively attempting to fully cross over. Regardless of how depressed Loid is about Albrecht's departure I'd think that the giant eldritch monstrosity with a history of malice would be top priority. There isn't time to waste in a life or death situation, but here we are.

  Hide contents

Also teasing a giant mech battle and not delivering was so incredibly disappointing to the point words cannot do it justice. They squared up like it was about to get real and then they just hug it out instantly. Like what?! DE why??? That would've been such an explosive pay off... I was so excited and got immediately shot down. That would've been so cool... 

 

It might just be my background in Warhammer 40,000 but from where I stand, hugging it out actually WAS top priority because it most likely DID stop the eldritch entity. Wally reminds me a lot of Tzeentch, the chaos god of magic and scheming, and in Warhammer canon he literally feeds off of emotions (both of his enemies and his worshippers). A big name character like Albrecht or Loid who invented time travel? Their emotions are most likely his ticket out of the wall. Do keep in mind one of Warhammer's artists got hired by DE and designed the Sepulcrum...

As for the Vessel Mechs, fully controllable mechs was probably never on the table. Necramechs are about as big as we're ever going to see. But as a one off cutscene? I too was expecting a big punch right in Wally's face... but I'm actually glad I was wrong. Why? Brilliant call-back to the Sacrifice quest. As violent as we Tenno are, Empathy is about the only thing separating us from our Orokin creators, and it is something I want to foster MORE of

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

I'll admit I'm confused by your reply.  I thought you were mainly trying to advocate for not entirely condemning people and you were concerned about the people themselves being judged, which I think has merit.

But if your argument really is really a semantic one — that homophobia isn't bigotry — then I'll simply say that under the definitions of bigotry I'm most familiar with, bigotry is to racism/homophobia/sexism/religious intolerance as animal is to dog/fish/bird/worm.  I've found that semantic debates are unfruitful, so just know that when some people see/use this term, this is the lens with which they are interpreting the ideas being put forth.  So if I'm understanding you correctly, hopefully that will help you to be better understood and better understand others better in the future.

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by (PSN)Unstar
seeing if bold makes the analogy read better

[Mikhael222]

Community mods deleting comments and silencing the opinions of one side of the issue......."antagonism toward a specific group"......That would also be bigotry.

But the mantra of woke mind virus says, "bIgOtRy Is OnLy WhEn ThE hOmOpHoBeS cOmMeNt," so those who suffer from it act accordingly and fail to see the double standard.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

I think it was pretty well done and kept open to interpretation, honestly. The drama taking up so much of the quest was a bit of an odd choice given the literal void demon knocking on the window, but it was nice to get a little more view into Albrecht as a person. Damn do I feel bad for the Cavia and everyone Albrecht has interacted with, though.

Still, I don't think people should necessarily be fighting/insulting each other over their unconfirmed headcanons and interpretations.

Also, I'm hoping that we get to see more interactions between the two Loids. There's absolutely some interesting history to be dug up, there.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[Lancars]

Well with the Dagath lore it seems like the Orokin where very open relationship wise.

[TeaHands]

"The community reached out to so many of us at Larian, and said they were seen, and they were represented by this game when they lost hope, they felt isolated, they felt alone, and this game brought them together and gave them something to push through, to help them all."

-Neil Newbon

People trying to push their ignorance on a form of media that helps so many outcasts feel like they are worthy after being told otherwise will always break my heart when it comes to the gaming community. It's definitely become more accepting in recent years but to still see such blatant hatred for something that does not affect them one bit still bothers me.

[(PSN)Unstar]

28 minutes ago, Mikhael222 said:

But the mantra of woke mind virus says, "bIgOtRy Is OnLy WhEn ThE hOmOpHoBeS cOmMeNt," so those who suffer from it act accordingly and fail to see the double standard.

With respect, it's in no way a double-standard.  There's a very clear and singular standard: the ToS.  Follow them and you'll be fine.  Stray from them and you won't.

[Letter13]

26 minutes ago, Mikhael222 said:

Community mods deleting comments and silencing the opinions of one side of the issue......."antagonism toward a specific group"......That would also be bigotry.

But the mantra of woke mind virus says, "bIgOtRy Is OnLy WhEn ThE hOmOpHoBeS cOmMeNt," so those who suffer from it act accordingly and fail to see the double standard.

Yes, it's possible to be bigoted against bigots, such as being bigoted against Nazis, or sexists, or homophobes, transphobes, racists (which are all bigots as well).

I am obstinate and (probably) can't be convinced in any way, shape or form that Naziism, racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia or so on are anything other than bad, and that they should have no place or soapbox in modern society... I am antagonistic towards anyone who subscribes to those ideologies, so, yes, by definition I am a bigot. Congratulations on turning it around on me...

... Except calling it a double standard is flawed reasoning, because it's about what the bigotry is over rather than the act of bigotry itself. It's bigotry preaching intolerance versus bigotry preaching tolerance, and trying to equate both sides as somehow being the same (double standard) because 'you can't be tolerant if you're intolerant of intolerance' then boils down to the paradox of tolerance, specifically the third component of tolerance regarding rejection.

Preston King, Rainer Forst and Karl Popper (civil rights leader/philosophers) posit that for tolerance and tolerant societies to thrive, they must be intolerant of intolerance. It's a pretty popular conundrum that likes to get thrown about as an attempted 'gotcha' or 'whataboutism' as a means to deflect, but the simple fact is that tolerating intolerance will inevitably lead to tolerance being washed away, and the tolerant with them (such was the case of Nazi Germany); ergo, intolerance should not be tolerated.

If you wish to discuss this further I'm happy to take this to private messages so the thread can remain more on topic.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I'll admit I'm confused by your reply.  I thought you were mainly trying to advocate for not entirely condemning people and you were concerned about the people themselves being judged, which I think has merit.

But if your argument really is really a semantic one — that homophobia isn't bigotry — then I'll simply say that under the definitions of bigotry I'm most familiar with, bigotry is to racism/homophobia/sexism/religious intolerance as animal is to dog/fish/bird/worm.  I've found that semantic debates are unfruitful, so just know that when some people see/use this term, this is the lens with which they are interpreting the ideas being put forth.  So if I'm understanding you correctly, hopefully that will help you to be better understood and better understand others better in the future.

 

What I was trying to convey is simply because people hold hatred for others does not mean they are bigots as there are many factors including, religion, race, and culture. These things create beliefs that are not unreasonable to them. We think they are unreasonable though. I do advocate for inclusion in all forms as I am a member of the LGBTQ community but we still need to see through others eyes even if we don't like what we see. If we don't, we are just as full of hatred as they are.

Edited December 15, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna
I guess it was about a little of both?

[(PSN)Unstar]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

What I was trying to convey is simply because people hold hatred for others does not mean they are bigots as there are many factors including, religion, race, and culture. These things create beliefs that are not unreasonable to them. We think they are unreasonable though. I do advocate for inclusion in all forms as I am a member of the LGBTQ community but we still need to see through others eyes even if we don't like what we see. If we don't, we are just as full of hatred as they are.

I think we're probably on similar pages: I generally try to follow the strategy of "identify the action/behavior as racist, not the person".

[tel__arin]

10 hours ago, Loza03 said:

  Hide contents

He might not actually have had one. It's mentioned in some early lore that the Orokin didn't reproduce the, shall we say, old-fashioned way, so there was presumably no need. 

 

Spoiler

It says on the cosmic clock room that he had a wife and a daughter 

 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

9 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

That's assuming Albrecht's wife was even alive, given the literal cutthroat nature of trying to invent things in the Orokin empire

(And before you ask, the NPC named "Grandmother" was Albrecht's in-law)

I'm aware she's an in-law. I can't find any reference to his wife. Don't really know her fate or even name.

9 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

There is on the Moon path

Between the old and new lore, I get the impression Albrecht was coming down with either depression or PTSD. He was either shutting out or lashing out at Loid -- he had enough self-awareness to recognize it, and in doing so didn't dare use Wally as a justification. His problems were still hurting Loid and all he could do was own up to it

Judging from the "Aftermath" Fragments he is quoted by saying:

"If I must be a demon, let me be an honest one. Let me prove my nature by what I do next"

A big part if his lore is his confusion regarding whether or it was him or TMITW that escaped. Which has me thinking if it's Albrecht: He's just following his "agreement" or it's TMITW that Loids been dealing with the whole time.

Either way, he's Orokin. And we know that they will manipulate anyone to ultimately fulfill the goals they have. Loid is manipulated. I also have the impression that due to this: Loid might be someone we can't trust. 

Because if we have to take Albrecht out: He probably will get in the middle or stab us in the back.

 

 

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

A big part if his lore is his confusion regarding whether or it was him or TMITW that escaped.

The dramatic irony is they both escaped: Albrecht is still himself, but Wally escaped anyway and ended up in 1999

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

I also have the impression that due to this: Loid might be someone we can't trust. 

I was actually expecting this too. Human Loid hates both the Cavia-creatures and Robot Loid, I took that as foreshadowing of SOMEthing. In the absence of anything else, I was thinking maybe Loid was the villain! Maybe he was actually Wally, or maybe he was going to usurp Albrecht of his own free will.

And it was foreshadowing! But of something else: all the animals, all the NecroLoids, they serve as a bitter reminder the man he loved left him. Even if Albrecht has reasons, it was still abandonment, and Loid can't help but feel the pain again

[Girunugal]

22 hours ago, Kaiga said:

 Let me see if I understand this mental gymnastics routine correctly. 

You live in a country that criminalizes gay marriage, but also freely allows homosexuality (because you're implying my assumption was wrong for being an assumption)  yet has strong cultural taboos against it, so much so that you come to the forum of a very obviously western video game dev to go argue cultural supremacy like a smug snake?

 

This is the worst ChatGPT fork I've ever seen.

But, it will be a drag for the rest of us(People from backward cultures) if the government(our governments) decided to block this game altogether. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Girunugal

[Elenortirie]

17 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

It's definitely not that...they referred to each other in a possessive manner.

It be kinda weird for your Dad to go "my C11H22011" 

Over where I live, it is perfectly normal and usual for parents to refer to their children in posessive manner. "My boy", "My Girl", "My Luke", "My Mathew", all very common occurences. No weirdness attached.

Use of online forum/game pseudonim in reference could be awkward tho ;)

[Alguien]

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I was actually expecting this too. Human Loid hates both the Cavia-creatures and Robot Loid, I took that as foreshadowing of SOMEthing. In the absence of anything else, I was thinking maybe Loid was the villain! Maybe he was actually Wally, or maybe he was going to usurp Albrecht of his own free will

I think there is no secret Loid's plan, he is just classic Orokin egocentric and pompous about himself and is also frustrated over his Albrecht leaving.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

14 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I think we're probably on similar pages: I generally try to follow the strategy of "identify the action/behavior as racist, not the person".

We are definitely on the same page and would hate for you to think otherwise.

[Raskol]

Damn, i just asked a genuine question, came back few days later and theres this lol
While nothing was said or done, i feel the love between those guys was very strongly hinted - now that i think of it DE might be testing ground with how community will react to such relationship. Wouldnt you say?

[Circle_of_Psi]

9 minutes ago, Raskol said:

 Now that i think of it DE might be testing ground with how community will react to such relationship. Wouldnt you say?

Good on them for trying at least you know and I feel sorry for you OP that you asked a simple thing and it unfolded into this, but to be fair Game Devs have to be VERY careful when touching such topics since I don't know about others, but many companies are going broke because of similar issues. 

If you like, we can discuss this in DMs, not to detail the topic.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Circle_of_Psi

[TARINunit9]

6 hours ago, Alguien said:

I think there is no secret Loid's plan, he is just classic Orokin egocentric and pompous about himself and is also frustrated over his Albrecht leaving.

Um, yes, read my very next line:

11 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

And it was foreshadowing! But of something else: all the animals, all the NecroLoids, they serve as a bitter reminder the man he loved left him. Even if Albrecht has reasons, it was still abandonment, and Loid can't help but feel the pain again

 

[(PSN)Unstar]

3 hours ago, Raskol said:

While nothing was said or done, i feel the love between those guys was very strongly hinted - now that i think of it DE might be testing ground with how community will react to such relationship. Wouldnt you say?

I think that ship sailed long ago.  For as long as I can remember DE has openly supported queer folks, including adding numerous queer items and characters to the game.

And while it's the first queer relationship to be showcased with visually animated exchanges of affection in a main story quest, I know it's at the very least not the first queer relationship in Warframe.  Dagath's origin story jumps to mind as one that's certain, and the trans-coded Ticker has some lines about their deceased lover.  It's left ambiguous whether Varzia is simply pining for Maroo or whether something is actually going on there.  And I'd be surprised if there weren't others I'm forgetting about.

Though all that said, I don't want to detract from the coolness of seeing Albrecht and Loid's relationship being portrayed at a new threshold of fidelity on center stage, and as part of such rich story beats, to boot!

Edited December 15, 2023 by (PSN)Unstar

[(PSN)Nelsconey]

The animals here seem far more interesting and likeable than A and L.  

 

 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

22 hours ago, Lancars said:

Well with the Dagath lore it seems like the Orokin where very open relationship wise.

This pretty much sums it up, as well as multiple ancient cultures had similar sentiments. As much as the Orokin are considered "advanced" they take a ton of cues from ancient civilizations.

9 hours ago, Alguien said:

I think there is no secret Loid's plan, he is just classic Orokin egocentric and pompous about himself and is also frustrated over his Albrecht leaving.

Which means he can't be trusted. Totally get the vibe he would sell us out and betray us for Albrect.