Let's compare: Kullervo and Dagath.

[Prof-Dante]

I find myself using both Warframes a lot because in my Opinion they're very fun to use and creatively exciting! despite people saying otherwise.

Now, I'm comparing them not to find out who's better then just use that Warframe and forget about the other, no...I'm comparing them just to see simply who's more convenient to use.

 

Fashion: Both for me are A tier Warframes in design, yet in different A tier categories.

Kullervo has the typical male Warframe template that strikes similarities with Volt and Revenant, yet with Warped textures and tainted colors, similar to the people of Duviri.
Dagath on the other Hand, dawns a Horror, or Gothic look, with ragged clothes, a horse's head as a shoulder piece, and overall scary and undead design.

I think I'm leaning more towards Dagath on this one...Kullervo without attachments and creative color placements is very boring...yet Dagath is already dripped up without any of those.

Kit: 

• Survivability: Dagath is definitely more squishy, relying only on Raw shield gating, with rolling guard, brief respite, catalyzing shields. and everything, while Kullervo is more comfortable having high health and armor values, and an easy to use Overguard defense system. yet, at higher levels, both of them are squishy all the same. and whoever can shield gate the longest wins.. whom in that case, is Dagath, she has shields with DR and higher shield gate duration, he doesn't.
   
• Damage: I named this comparison "damage" because both have similar goals, with similar methods. Kullervo is very simple, 1 is his damage buff, and three spreads the damage he deals to other enemies. yet, Kullervo's only buff is critical chance, and no other multipliers save for helminth abilities, still he's one of the craziest Damaging Warframes, the highest damage I got with him was 192 million. 
  
  Dagath is more complicated, yet does the exact same thing, her two is her damage buffing for duplication, her three is also a massive Critical damage buff, and her 4 strips armor and is the highest ability damage in the game. Dagath has three different dps multipliers, and to no surprise if you subsume Wrathful advance on her, that's 4, she can theoretically beat Kullervo. 
• Modding: Kullervo needs 200% strength only, 145% range, and moderate efficiency and duration, Dagath on the other hand, needs a LOT of investment, very high strength values, some range, and high efficiency, also all the shield gating mods for survivability, definitely not an easy Warframe to build

 Verdict: It's simple, Kullervo is definitely a lot more comfortable to use, and mod. while Dagath needs much more effort and investments for slightly better results.

[ReddyDisco]

5 minutes ago, Qorvex99 said:

Dagath on the other hand, needs a LOT of investment, very high strength values, some range, and high efficiency, also all the shield gating mods for survivability, definitely not an easy Warframe to build

Not really, with precision intensify you can reach that 100% defense strip on her 4 easily and still have room for duration, range, rolling guard and catalysing shields.

[Skoomaseller]

you don't need high str on dagath. her 4 hits multiple times so with lower str you can full strip a doomed enemy.

regardless, kullervo is much more convenient and straightforward thanks to overguard gate + 2 button wonder.

[NineChameleon]

I've only really had the chance to play Dagath in circuit. I've had other priorities before obtaining her. But from what little I saw I'd actually compare her more to Sevagoth than Kullervo. She reminded me a lot of him when I was playing her. 

Both she and Sevagoth rely on a 1-2 combo for a lot of their damage (2 applying a debuff and 1 taking advantage of that debuff for damage) 

They both have an avoid death mechanic but i'd say hers is better, but you need her 3 on in order to do it which also gives her crit chance. Whereas Sevagoth's 3 is just a debuff with lifesteal. Which granted is good, but buffing damage will always be useful in more situations.

She has a room clear/ armor strip in her 4 where Sevagoth has his shadow swap. 

So honestly I've just started calling her "better sevagoth" which is a shame because I've really enjoyed sevagoth since his release so long as I am in content where I can ignore just how fragile he is. My REAL issue with Dagath is in her design tbh. I feel she's a mishmash of abilities and things from other frames. That and... her visual look bothers me a little. 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

6 hours ago, Qorvex99 said:

Fashion:

I agree, considering that we're usually waiting upwards of a year for any sort of skin, and several years for a prime, the look of the vanilla frame is important to me. Kullervo looks decent (love the idea of the knives sticking out of him, it's awesome), and Dagath isn't bad either, I basically tweaked her default colours and went with green Energy like my Nekros. her Alt-Helm is actually pretty good too, even though it just turns the face-hole 90 degrees lol.

6 hours ago, Qorvex99 said:

Survivability:

both are hard to kill, and honestly I don't think Dagath is that squishy: I've been running her exclusively the last couple of days, and as long as you keep her 3 up and remain vigilant, it's not that bad. her armor is a bit low but it's nothing that a couple of blue Tauforged Shards can't fix.

Kullervo requires you to be more active with his second ability to keep the Overguard up, but once it's up, you really can tank. with both frames though, you'd ideally be dealing enough damage across the room to not have to worry about the threat: Dagath's 2 and 4, and Kullervo's 3 ensure that you should be able to wipe out groups of enemies before they can even attack enough times to put you in danger. 

6 hours ago, Qorvex99 said:

Damage:

both are capable of insane damage, no doubt about it. Kullervo is probably more suited to melee-centric players, but Dagath can spread her damage far and wide, I'd argue that for actual nuking, Dagath is probably faster, as you're not having to run in and melee individual enemies, but then you can also subsume Wrathful Advance, and despite it being a nerfed version, it still makes a tremendous difference to a melee frame; my Ash and Atlas both have it on, and it's brilliant.

6 hours ago, Qorvex99 said:

Modding:

I'd say the only real issue I have with Dagath is that , being a frame that needs to cast a lot to be effective, she's very energy hungry, but there's not a lot of room for efficiency mods without compromising the range and strength you need: to that end I use both Arcane Energize and Arcane Steadfast on her, the latter giving a chance of 3 free casts after using an ability: useful on any frame, but on Dagath that means being able to spam her 4 with impunity, or getting a much-needed free cast of Doom just as a new group of enemies approach. 

overall I love both of these frames about equally, if I HAD to choose I *might* give the edge (pun intended) to Kullervo, as I really enjoy melee combat, and I'm a sucker for easy red crits.

 

[Prof-Dante]

7 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

Not really, with precision intensify you can reach that 100% defense strip on her 4 easily and still have room for duration, range, rolling guard and catalysing shields.

Precision intensify is fairly new, so I didn't consider it in this comparison.

[SneakyErvin]

9 hours ago, Qorvex99 said:

Survivability: Dagath is definitely more squishy, relying only on Raw shield gating, with rolling guard, brief respite, catalyzing shields. and everything, while Kullervo is more comfortable having high health and armor values, and an easy to use Overguard defense system. yet, at higher levels, both of them are squishy all the same. and whoever can shield gate the longest wins.. whom in that case, is Dagath, she has shields with DR and higher shield gate duration, he doesn't.

Dagath can also rely on extremely high armor and HP. You just have to build her differently. It would also help if you specify what you deem as higher levels, since both are near indestructible without any gate for an hour or two in SP or well Netracell levels. If you play Dagath as the high damage caster she is, her third skill is a complete waste since you will likely not touch your weapons. So you can slot Fractured Blast on her and combine it with Health Conversion and Arcane Blessing. This ends up giving her more than enough armor to work with, and with an auger mod on either her or her secondary, or brief respite, she'll have all the gate she needs due to her constant casting. To top it off I used an armor shard or two on her as fillers since there was nothing else she needed at that point from shards.

9 hours ago, Qorvex99 said:

Modding: Kullervo needs 200% strength only, 145% range, and moderate efficiency and duration, Dagath on the other hand, needs a LOT of investment, very high strength values, some range, and high efficiency, also all the shield gating mods for survivability, definitely not an easy Warframe to build

You dont need much more strength on Dagath since the skill that really requires strength already hits several times which results in full strip.

[Prof-Dante]

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

If you play Dagath as the high damage caster she is,

I play a bit of both, if the enemy is susceptible and weak enough I use abilities to kill, if I need more of a gunplay I use wrathful advance and 3. 

she's very versatile in the way you approach your enemies, which made me love her a lot.

[o0Despair0o]

9 hours ago, Qorvex99 said:

Survivability

Are we just gonna ingore that Dagath's 3 literally makes her immortal?

You drop to 0 HP and you get invincibility instead of dying. All you gotta do is jump around for a couple seconds you can activate it again.

[Prof-Dante]

22 minutes ago, o0Despair0o said:

Are we just gonna ingore that Dagath's 3 literally makes her immortal?

You drop to 0 HP and you get invincibility instead of dying. All you gotta do is jump around for a couple seconds you can activate it again.

Nah I hate these get out of jail type passive abilities, Voruna also has one but it's rarely used...the problem with them is the cooldown, Rolling Guard is a lot more interactive as it's only 7 seconds CD.

this one you not only loose the invincibility period you also loose your damage buff. 

I wouldn't say I want no cooldown, but a little bit of micro management. Nidus looses his scaling mutation stacks, 

you might say, it has a cooldown because it's affected by duration, so you can be invincible for as long as you want..but again, I loose my damage. 

[Raarsi]

5 hours ago, NineChameleon said:

So honestly I've just started calling her "better sevagoth" which is a shame because I've really enjoyed sevagoth since his release so long as I am in content where I can ignore just how fragile he is.

Mechanically yes, very much like how Kullervo is yet another "better Inaros".  I do agree that it's unfortunate though, and sorta makes me wish DE would expand the shadow limit on his augment (guessing the limit's there for technical reasons instead of balance reasons).

Of those two, I think I'd give it to Kullervo just because I like having his survivability being something to actively think about as opposed to Dagath's set-and-"oh crap, I thought it was still on cd".  As for fashion, I like both, but I just find Dagath having waist drapery in the front and not the back a bit weird even though I'm sure it has something to do with horse-riding attire.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Qorvex99 said:

I play a bit of both, if the enemy is susceptible and weak enough I use abilities to kill, if I need more of a gunplay I use wrathful advance and 3. 

she's very versatile in the way you approach your enemies, which made me love her a lot.

I've yet to bump into something that her skills wont destroy completely. And hmm which skill did you replace with Wrathful? Since the only skill I can see myself ever replacing on her is her #3, since the other three skills just sync too much with eachother.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Interesting comparison and well written write up. I personally tend to find both pretty convenient to play, and whilst I did invest in both, I remember feeling both were pretty effective, even when I first used them, with low investment. I remember being impressed I could effectively one shot Acolytes when I took them out for the first time (so no Forma, just with Reactors installed, doing a SP Survival). Funnily enough, when I think of both, I tend to think of the environment I will use them in. I tend to like using Dagath in longer corridors and choke points, like Orokin tile sets in the Void, where I like Kullervo in more open rooms, that connect, even if they have verticality aspects (a lot of Grineer tile sets). Anyway, that means I need my own different comparisons to use. 

What Happens When They Drink
Dagath: Has no face. Most liquids will pass through and fall out the back of her head. If not careful will end up with a wet back, wet pants etc. Though, technically, with no face, could also pour drinks from back to front, and hunch over slightly, where they will just pour on to the ground. General conclusion. Can't drink well, whether for celebration, casually or comfort, except potentially intravenously.

Kullervo: Has many many holes in body, via deep stab wounds. Located around different areas of the body, when liquids are consumed, which unlike above, they initially can be, they are processed somewhat commonly. At first. After the general throat area, liquids are then pressurised and ejected from the several different stab wounds inflicted upon Kullervo. Creating a somewhat fountainous effect, as water sprays from various knife wounds, in a cascading fashion. General conclusions. Can't drink well, but better than Dagath. May be able to at least savour the taste and flavour of various liquids, but will struggle to get truely drunk, in any regular capacity. Clothing will also get wet/spoiled, as no amount of bodily positioning will assist in avoiding this issue. 

Equestrian Potential
Dagath: Has a horse. However its dead. Does require energy to appear. Appears as a ghost and goes on a killing rampage. Despite being the commonly preconceived favourite for this comparison, most Equestrian Sports Organisations, Committees and Foundations actually, really don't like it when their competitors show up with dead horses that they attempt to ride in front of other people. Dagath's unwillingness to ride living, breathing, horses, hampers her potential greatly. 

Kullervo: Has no horse. However has a teleport. Has many many knives, that possess a degree of mid air control that is considered superhuman. Is a bit of an arts and crafts connoisseur. Can create fairly convincing art constructs resembling the object his mind dedicates towards. With a bit of cardboard, glue, paint, human hair, felt, can create a fairly realistic horse imitation. Can use his hidden knives under the construct to make the cardboard horse seem more alive and simulate movement. A puppet if you will, or more aptly, a trojan Horse. With the ability to teleport, and a telekinetically obedient cardboard horse, will take the Equestrian world by storm, and go down as one of its greatest talents. 

Concluson? Citrine wins. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

What Happens When They Drink
Dagath: Has no face. Most liquids will pass through and fall out the back of her head. If not careful will end up with a wet back, wet pants etc. Though, technically, with no face, could also pour drinks from back to front, and hunch over slightly, where they will just pour on to the ground. General conclusion. Can't drink well, whether for celebration, casually or comfort, except potentially intravenously.

Kullervo: Has many many holes in body, via deep stab wounds. Located around different areas of the body, when liquids are consumed, which unlike above, they initially can be, they are processed somewhat commonly. At first. After the general throat area, liquids are then pressurised and ejected from the several different stab wounds inflicted upon Kullervo. Creating a somewhat fountainous effect, as water sprays from various knife wounds, in a cascading fashion. General conclusions. Can't drink well, but better than Dagath. May be able to at least savour the taste and flavour of various liquids, but will struggle to get truely drunk, in any regular capacity. Clothing will also get wet/spoiled, as no amount of bodily positioning will assist in avoiding this issue. 

Oh gods lol!!

Kullervo is really in some Finnish hell.

Stabbed by knives, many knives. We all know fins love to use knives to stab others but dont really enjoy getting stabbed, much less stabbed several times over as opposed to stabbing someone else several times over. We all also know fins love to drink hard drinks and enjoy what comes from drinking those hard drinks. Kullervo cannot drink properly and he cant keep the drinks down when he eventually manages to drink. 

Kullervo, the new and highly advanced shower head or sprinkler system. Spreads water and death to equal effect.

[Prof-Dante]

29 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I've yet to bump into something that her skills wont destroy completely. And hmm which skill did you replace with Wrathful? Since the only skill I can see myself ever replacing on her is her #3, since the other three skills just sync too much with eachother.

I replaced her 1, it's not helping much with the type of playstyle I want...using Wyrd means I have to focus entirely on Ability casting. 

Edited January 3 by Qorvex99

[Prof-Dante]

On 2024-01-03 at 6:24 PM, SneakyErvin said:

I've yet to bump into something that her skills wont destroy completely. And hmm which skill did you replace with Wrathful? Since the only skill I can see myself ever replacing on her is her #3, since the other three skills just sync too much with eachother.

you were right and I was stupid, Wyrd scythes is amazing with the 1 3 4 loop and It increased my survivability and Kills per minute 10 fold, I'm not exaggerating.

I tried making Dagath like Kullervo, a heavy attack weapon damage buffer, but it just didn't work, Dagath is an ability caster...she's squishy and relies on shield gating, she needs to cast so many abilities all the time.

I don't know why I'm so obsessed with weapon buffing Warframes and trying them against bosses...but I can still do that with Dagath, her 2 affects most bosses in the game, and I can replace her 3 with Roar to allow it to double dip.

Edited January 4 by Qorvex99

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Qorvex99 said:

you were right and I was stupid, Wyrd scythes is amazing with the 1 3 4 loop and It increased my survivability and Kills per minute 10 fold, I'm not exaggerating.

I tried making Dagath like Kullervo, a heavy attack weapon damage buffer, but it just didn't work, Dagath is an ability caster...she's squishy and relies on shield gating, she needs to cast so many abilities all the time.

I don't know why I'm so obsessed with weapon buffing Warframes and trying them against bosses...but I can still do that with Dagath, her 2 affects most bosses in the game, and I can replace her 3 with Roar to allow it to double dip.

It's an amazing skill with the innate slow, doom spreading and triggering the stored damage on doom. Plus it works similar to seeking talons with its pierce effect.

I think the fresh part with Dagath for me was that she felt like a real caster, with a rotation of skills for maximum potential. Her #3 just felt out of place for me since she had great skill synergy between 1, 2 and 4, then her 3 just feels thrown in there. Wouldnt have felt so out of place if it did anything for a full caster build. Could have been something as simple as enemies killed by her horses while debuffed with doom gives her x% chance to spawn an energy or health or, or a universal orb or something aslong as her 3 is active. Since that would also sync with her passive and so on.

 

[Prof-Dante]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It's an amazing skill with the innate slow, doom spreading and triggering the stored damage on doom. Plus it works similar to seeking talons with its pierce effect.

I think the fresh part with Dagath for me was that she felt like a real caster, with a rotation of skills for maximum potential. Her #3 just felt out of place for me since she had great skill synergy between 1, 2 and 4, then her 3 just feels thrown in there. Wouldnt have felt so out of place if it did anything for a full caster build. Could have been something as simple as enemies killed by her horses while debuffed with doom gives her x% chance to spawn an energy or health or, or a universal orb or something aslong as her 3 is active. Since that would also sync with her passive and so on.

 

what did you say you replaced her 3 with again? I said I would put Roar but Gloom is funny, and the self heal is great with her reliance on shield gating.

I'm still a bit iffy about using a pure ability caster frame, I'm trying to figure out if doom works on Archons...I don't know why I'm still so keen on making a Kullervo 2.

 

but if you think about it, wouldn't Wrathful advance on her make for a better Kullervo? she has CD buff, a damage redirection buff, an defense strip.

I tried it for a long time, but without the slow, shield gating is really hard.

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, Qorvex99 said:

what did you say you replaced her 3 with again? I said I would put Roar but Gloom is funny, and the self heal is great with her reliance on shield gating.

I'm still a bit iffy about using a pure ability caster frame, I'm trying to figure out if doom works on Archons...I don't know why I'm still so keen on making a Kullervo 2.

 

but if you think about it, wouldn't Wrathful advance on her make for a better Kullervo? she has CD buff, a damage redirection buff, an defense strip.

I tried it for a long time, but without the slow, shield gating is really hard.

I replaced her 3 with Fractured Blast. Constant supply of energy and health orbs. And with Health Conversion my build ends up at 2450 armor at full stacks and 3000 health with blessing active.

As to her being a better Kullervo if she slots Wrathful? I'd say no, and she is probably not even close. Subsumed Wrathful only grants half the crit of the regular version, meaning +100% strength gives 200% crit (guaranteed orange) while on Kullervo it results in 400% crit (red tier 2). It is very unlikely her #3 crit damage will make up for the crit damage lost in those 2 extra tiers, since it would be an additional 100/200% CD increase at +100% strength, so it would only double or tripple the base crit damage on the weapon while the two extra crit tiers adds the modded crit damage 2 additional times.

I can only take my own Dual Ichor as an example. If modded and sharded equally the results between Dagath with Wrathful and Kullervo would be.

Dual Ichor x3.0 CD base crit damage. My Modded Dual Ichor sits at x14 crit damage on Kullervo.

Dagath at +100% strength, her 3 and Wrathful would result in 14+3(Dagath buff)+14(orange Tier) = x31 or with Doom added 14+6(Doom+Dagath buff)+17(orange crit) = x37.

With Kullervo it would be 14+11(orange)+11(red tier 1)+11(red tier 2) = x47

In addition to that Curse as a damage redirection/spreader ignores armor when health damage is spread. So never any actual need for a strip of any kind. And Doom on Dagath doesnt spread damage like Curse. Doom simply stores a part of damage inflicted to a target and executes that target instantly if the stored damage is high enough to kill remove the rest of the enemey HP. So Dooming 20 enemies and only hitting 1 of them will only kill that single enemy. If you Curse 20 and hit 1 of them, the other 19 will take equal damage, and any damage inflicted to health will ignore armor.

I think one of the easiest ways to turn Dagath into a very crazy melee frame would be with Dual Ichor Incarnon and Melee Influence, potentially skipping her horses for nourish. Since that would likely lead to map wide spread of Doom and the Dual Ichor cloud, meaning that each 2 seconds or when enough damage from the cloud is stored to execute a discharge from Doom would happen on the enemy. The question though is if the kill from Doom's stored damage would count as a melee kill and spawn a new cloud from Dual Ichor. Dual Ichor and Melee Influence is already crazy though.

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

In addition to that Curse as a damage redirection/spreader ignores armor when health damage is spread. So never any actual need for a strip of any kind.

That damage is based off damage done to the original targets though, so stripping those (or bypassing the armor) is still potentially extremely useful.  

[TARINunit9]

Quote

Grandmother tells a tale of a rider stride a horse,
gather by the fire, shudder within cold flame,
warrior once lost ro legend, wore, and remorse,
head empty of naught but vengeance and blame.
The time is here, day turns into night,
the one called Dagath will finally take flight.

Quote

Kullervo, Kullervo, warrior born.
From his mother’s breast he was torn.
Doomed to go wandering all forlorn.
Kullervo, Kullervo, made to morn.

I personally prefer the Kullervo poems, but part of that is you get to hear them sung so they have a leg up. The Dagath poems definitely put in a strong showing, especially the ones with the other warframes in them

[Prof-Dante]

4 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

That damage is based off damage done to the original targets though, so stripping those (or bypassing the armor) is still potentially extremely useful.  

Helminth is ruining my life.

I've subsumed Wrathful advance and gloom in and out so many times I'm starting to get angry at myself lol.

But finally, I think I got it now, I made the final Wrathful advance subsume by removing her 4...which wouldn't affect her much since I'm trying to use her as a weapon buffer frame.

still It feels disorienting to cast, I'm used to see wrathful in the first ability slot...I wish DE would just listen to me and allow us to change ability slot locations.

[Dairaion]

my favorite thing about them is that much like pokemon were now getting proper "Ghost" type warframes for halloween, all we need now is a cuchulain warframe that warps into a pseudo voidrig for St. Pattys day and we'd be set.

[Tiltskillet]

20 minutes ago, Qorvex99 said:

Helminth is ruining my life.

The Bile Conglomerate thanks you for your exceptional support, valued customer!

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

That damage is based off damage done to the original targets though, so stripping those (or bypassing the armor) is still potentially extremely useful.  

With how the skill works currently together with the spread of enemy types stripping becomes mostly pointless. There will always be a weak target around and since Curse doesnt just transfer actual damage done to health but also uses overkill damage that weak target will kill everything else aswell. I could see potentially using Toxin versus Corrputed and Corpus to ignore shields since damage to shields only ever transfers to damage shields of others. But I'd need to get to such high levels in SP to ever see any real benefit of that, which will likely never ever happen.