Aruquae Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 3 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said: Right. Say you have 100 base damage, mod for 100% damage increase and roar with 100% damage increase, you are going to deal 100 * (1 + 1) * (1 + 1) = 400 damage. If you add another mod for another 100% damage increase, then you are going to deal 100 * (1 + 1 + 1) * (1 + 1) = 600 damage. So I don’t see how it’s “less impactful”. Obviously if you could add a third multiplier, it would be better; however, my build is already utilizing all available multipliers. Calculations like that are too vast… you’re forgetting the position of where the multipliers are. PEMDAS is quite important in this game when taking damage into account. Diminishing returns… etc. Example of order of operations with the first being serration affecting flat damage, and the second being a multiplier after flat damage calculations. (2+100%)+16=20 (2+16)+100%= 32 On the plus side you’re a perfect example of “belief perseverance” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucker_d_dawg Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 OP is so in the dark no amount of explaining in this thread will lead him to the light. He wants more ways to get umbra's... that's a valid thing to ask... how he chooses to use them is his own problem 🤣 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernDarkIceSoul Posted January 11 Author Share Posted January 11 7 minutes ago, Aruquae said: Calculations like that are too vast… you’re forgetting the position of where the multipliers are. PEMDAS is quite important in this game when taking damage into account. Diminishing returns… etc. Example of order of operations with the first being serration affecting flat damage, and the second being a multiplier after flat damage calculations. (2+100%)+16=20 (2+16)+100%= 32 On the plus side you’re a perfect example of “belief perseverance” What the hell is pemdas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aruquae Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 5 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said: What the hell is pemdas The basics of Algebra… the order of operation I guess you can say An acronym if you would… Parentheses Exponents Multiplication Division Addition Subtraction If you want to talk equations, learn “what the heck” PEMDAS is first please… 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechNexus Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) Surely this guy can't be serious? Status builds are strong as hell - there's a reason why boss enemies can only have a handful of status effects applied at any given time compared to the average enemy. Edit: Just checked overframe - the top rated build for the top 2 melee weapons (nikana prime, kronen prime) do not use umbral mods, and the top rated build for the third favourite melee weapon (dual keres prime) uses just a maxed out sacrificial steel with no umbral forma. Additionally, that top Nikana Prime build uses weeping wounds. Edited January 11 by MechNexus extra info 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexerin Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 I see so many people in this thread saying "status builds are godly" or whatever. I invite any of you to show such a build actually beating out a crit build on Steel Path Circulus. Bear in mind, using primers is low end play (it's very slow, only useful if you're new to Steel Path and don't have the fun toys yet) and thus not applicable to this challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)FrDiabloFr Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 2 minutes ago, Hexerin said: I see so many people in this thread saying "status builds are godly" or whatever. I invite any of you to show such a build actually beating out a crit build on Steel Path Circulus. Bear in mind, using primers is low end play (it's very slow, only useful if you're new to Steel Path and don't have the fun toys yet) and thus not applicable to this challenge. Where did anyone use the word “godly” people are simply saying that status plays a big part in endgame builds. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makaloff95 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 On 2024-01-08 at 1:57 PM, NorthernDarkIceSoul said: Like I said, I don’t use umbra mods on Warframe, in fact I do use Precision Intensify. However, when it comes to melee - sacrificial mods are NECESSARY. huh? i can garantuee you they are not. besides, i would rather use the umbra formas into frames than meele weapons. But from what i know, umbra formas arent that hard to aquire, you can get them from alerts, nightwave, teshin etc. What meele weapons do you use that makes it a nessecerity to use umbra mods on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)GEN-Son_17 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 On 2024-01-08 at 1:44 AM, NorthernDarkIceSoul said: I'm so done with this game, I swear. I have at least 5 unfinished builds just because there is literally no way to obtain umbra forma in this game, and umbra mods are literally so overpowered that you cannot play this game without umbra mods. Add way to buy umbra forma for plat, it doesn't make sense that I can buy other formas for plat but not umbra forma. You can't play this game without Umbra mods? That's a lot of dramatic stretching... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadoon Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 So what if you can't have a "perfect" build for everything without umbral formas? Just use them on the stuff you like the most and be done with it. You can get through 99% of the games content with no rivens, no archon shards, and no umbral mods on your gear with no significant issues. I just got back into the game after being gone for a long time and am blazing through the newer stuff and the things "tuned for full squads" solo. Treat umbral formas as an award for some piece of gear. Don't just throw it on because someone tells you to, put it on because you enjoy it enough that you will continue to use it for a long time to come. I missed a lot of umbral formas and I saw qorvex and tried them for a while, liked them so much I spent one of my few umbrals I had left over on him. He worked perfectly fine before, but I just enjoyed them so much they basically deserved it imo. I didn't use it because they needed it, I used it because I liked them so much that I wanted them to be that much better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernDarkIceSoul Posted January 11 Author Share Posted January 11 3 hours ago, Aruquae said: The basics of Algebra… the order of operation I guess you can say An acronym if you would… Parentheses Exponents Multiplication Division Addition Subtraction If you want to talk equations, learn “what the heck” PEMDAS is first please… Are you trying to say that order of operations in my previous message is incorrect? 2 hours ago, MechNexus said: Surely this guy can't be serious? Status builds are strong as hell - there's a reason why boss enemies can only have a handful of status effects applied at any given time compared to the average enemy. Edit: Just checked overframe - the top rated build for the top 2 melee weapons (nikana prime, kronen prime) do not use umbral mods, and the top rated build for the third favourite melee weapon (dual keres prime) uses just a maxed out sacrificial steel with no umbral forma. Additionally, that top Nikana Prime build uses weeping wounds. Just because it’s top rated doesn’t mean it’s meta, and nikana prime is garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GovernmentSecrets.gov Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 There used to be a way to farm them in railjack for a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechNexus Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 10 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said: Are you trying to say that order of operations in my previous message is incorrect? Just because it’s top rated doesn’t mean it’s meta, and nikana prime is garbage. Okay, what is the meta, and what's your source? Overframe is the main community resource I have to gauge what the meta is,* and if something's highly rated on their tier list then it's pretty clear a good population of people think it's strong, and to a lot of people "meta" has come to mean "the best gear", so it feels reasonable for me to infer that these weapons are meta to some degree. Obviously Overframe isn't representative of the whole community, it can't be, but it can give us a decent idea of where everything stands. If you've got a better source, i'd like to hear it. Also - as far as the rest of the weapons that community considers S-tier go, it's a good mix of crit, status, and hybrid builds, but from what I can tell a lot of the top rated builds, from new to old, at most use sacrificial steel on it's own with no forma - if they even use it. *disclaimer: I do not blindly follow it, just use it as a jumping off point to make my own way with things if i'm unsure where to go with a given warframe or weapon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernDarkIceSoul Posted January 11 Author Share Posted January 11 8 minutes ago, MechNexus said: Okay, what is the meta, and what's your source? Overframe is the main community resource I have to gauge what the meta is,* and if something's highly rated on their tier list then it's pretty clear a good population of people think it's strong, and to a lot of people "meta" has come to mean "the best gear", so it feels reasonable for me to infer that these weapons are meta to some degree. Obviously Overframe isn't representative of the whole community, it can't be, but it can give us a decent idea of where everything stands. If you've got a better source, i'd like to hear it. Also - as far as the rest of the weapons that community considers S-tier go, it's a good mix of crit, status, and hybrid builds, but from what I can tell a lot of the top rated builds, from new to old, at most use sacrificial steel on it's own with no forma - if they even use it. *disclaimer: I do not blindly follow it, just use it as a jumping off point to make my own way with things if i'm unsure where to go with a given warframe or weapon Putting elemental damage mods on your melee will render your build suboptimal, as there are many sources of elemental damage other then mods, whereas to obtain melee damage, crit chance, crit damage and attack speed, the best way is through modding. overframe does not take abilities, arcanes, shards, companions and operator abilities into account and thus it cannot be representative of anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernDarkIceSoul Posted January 11 Author Share Posted January 11 As for WW, it is useless because melees have low status chance, low range and low multishot, so it will never be as efficient at applying status effects as an AOE primer with high base status chance and high multishot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Unstar Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 On 2024-01-08 at 1:44 AM, NorthernDarkIceSoul said: umbra mods are literally so overpowered that you cannot play this game without umbra mods I'm going to operate in good faith and assume that you truly believe this. And assuming that's true, it makes sense why you would feel so overwhelmed that you'd want to quit the game. I don't know why you think this, but let me be plain: it is not true. You in no way need Umbra mods to play the game and complete all the content in it. Heck, you don't even need weapons to do most Steel Path content right now, because your Sentinel's Verglas can take care of that for you. A decently modded weapon is more than enough to get you through just about anything this game can throw at you. So take a step back and a deep breath. And after that, let's prove your claim: that Umbra mods are so overpowered that you can't play the game without them. Make one of your builds, but replace the Umbra mods with their normal counterparts. Then try them out. You'll discover one of two things; either: while they're mathematically less effective, your build is still more than capable of getting the job done ...or... that you were right, and the game cannot be played without Umbra mods. If you're honest, I already know which of these you'll discover. But don't take it from me; please, try it for yourself and prove it to yourself first-hand. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernDarkIceSoul Posted January 11 Author Share Posted January 11 1 minute ago, (PSN)Unstar said: I'm going to operate in good faith and assume that you truly believe this. And assuming that's true, it makes sense why you would feel so overwhelmed that you'd want to quit the game. I don't know why you think this, but let me be plain: it is not true. You in no way need Umbra mods to play the game and complete all the content in it. Heck, you don't even need weapons to do most Steel Path content right now, because your Sentinel's Verglas can take care of that for you. A decently modded weapon is more than enough to get you through just about anything this game can throw at you. So take a step back and a deep breath. And after that, let's prove your claim: that Umbra mods are so overpowered that you can't play the game without them. Make one of your builds, but replace the Umbra mods with their normal counterparts. Then try them out. You'll discover one of two things; either: while they're mathematically less effective, your build is still more than capable of getting the job done ...or... that you were right, and the game cannot be played without Umbra mods. If you're honest, I already know which of these you'll discover. But don't take it from me; please, try it for yourself and prove it to yourself first-hand. Your error is that you are assuming that I am trying to merely complete the game. I have completed the game years ago and now I occasionally one back to complete the newly added content. Aside from that, I am very interested in seeing red numbers with 7+ digits, and this is why I need umbra mods 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekroArts Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 3 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said: Aside from that, I am very interested in seeing red numbers with 7+ digits, and this is why I need umbra mods This needs to be part of your original post. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechNexus Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 4 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said: Your error is that you are assuming that I am trying to merely complete the game. I have completed the game years ago and now I occasionally one back to complete the newly added content. Aside from that, I am very interested in seeing red numbers with 7+ digits, and this is why I need umbra mods Your original post said that you "cannot play this game without umbra mods" - seems you've been playing it just fine if you "completed" it years ago. I don't think I can take anything you say in good faith if you're going to contradict yourself like this. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Unstar Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) 9 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said: Your error is that you are assuming that I am trying to merely complete the game. I have completed the game years ago and now I occasionally one back to complete the newly added content. Aside from that, I am very interested in seeing red numbers with 7+ digits, and this is why I need umbra mods With respect, I made no error. You said "umbra mods are literally so overpowered that you cannot play this game without umbra mods", so I responded to that. But it sounds like you didn't genuinely mean that? So if anything, the error I made was believing that you meant the words you wrote. Edited January 11 by (PSN)Unstar 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernDarkIceSoul Posted January 11 Author Share Posted January 11 5 hours ago, MechNexus said: Your original post said that you "cannot play this game without umbra mods" - seems you've been playing it just fine if you "completed" it years ago. I don't think I can take anything you say in good faith if you're going to contradict yourself like this. It's a figure of speech 5 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said: With respect, I made no error. You said "umbra mods are literally so overpowered that you cannot play this game without umbra mods", so I responded to that. But it sounds like you didn't genuinely mean that? So if anything, the error I made was believing that you meant the words you wrote. This is normal to exaggerate and divert reality for the purpose of gaining increased attention to the issue at hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aruquae Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 4 hours ago, Hexerin said: I suggest you read through this thread, because status builds being stronger than crit builds has been stated several times by multiple people. Then come back to the discussion once you have a clue what the discussion is about. You won't though, because you're incapable of being rational. I also suggest reading the thread This entire thread is about convincing stubborn, which is useless considering stubborn clearly can't be convinced 1 hour ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said: overframe does not take abilities, arcanes, shards, companions and operator abilities into account and thus it cannot be representative of anything It does take account additive vs multiplicative damage, something you've been contradicting 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernDarkIceSoul Posted January 11 Author Share Posted January 11 5 hours ago, Aruquae said: It does take account additive vs multiplicative damage, something you've been contradicting Are you even reading what I'm saying? You are trying to convince me that I should put status mods on a MELEE which is preeeeeeeetty dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexerin Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 10 minutes ago, Aruquae said: I also suggest reading the thread This entire thread is about convincing stubborn, which is useless considering stubborn clearly can't be convinced Maybe read the full conversation before jumping into it, so you understand what's being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Unstar Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 48 minutes ago, NorthernDarkIceSoul said: This is normal to exaggerate and divert reality for the purpose of gaining increased attention to the issue at hand Not among people who are intellectually honest. Whether you are seen as such is largely dependent upon you, so choose prudently. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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