Nuke Builds Are Ruining Gameplay Enjoyment

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Dude, you have been arguing for overkill all this time. You don’t even know what you’re built for, in fact, in another topic, your whole philosophy is that you live in the highest builds you can make (or highest content you can do, can’t quite remember, but the point remains) because you think the game is a linear progression system. What do you think that translates into? Because I can tell you that most of this game is not designed around the highest builds you can make

I showed you a build that level 60 content pushes it because I want all that free slots and capacity for build customisation, so when I suggest bringing it to level 50, what do you think is going to happen?

It’s going to kill more effectively, without overkilling. It’s going to pull its weight more without carrying.

And when I said I’d reconsider that build for level 60 and potentially add some extra damage mods at cost to something else I’d equipped because I’m expecting players to go further than 60 and do a few rounds, what do you think is going to happen?

It’s going to kill more effectively without overkilling. It’s going to pull its weight more without carrying.

And Warframe does scale things according to amount of players. And you may be surprised at how many options we have to avoid mission failure that extend beyond our builds and how mission failure is actually kind of rare when we consider all the ways we can avoid it, not that you would know since I’m guessing you’ve never even approached it

 

Nuance is absolutely lost on you, Ervin. You may act like you know what you’re talking about, but when it comes to being considerate for the sake of players while building for content, you’re guessing at best and lying at worst. Your idea of consideration isn’t “Pull your weight”, it’s “Carry the team”, because you don’t know what “Pulling your weight” even looks like because all you’ve done is “Carry the team” because you think the game’s so linear you were living in SP builds before SP dropped and you think using something else is doing the game wrong

No one is arguing for overkill. I'm also fairly often advocating we could use some serious nerfs in the game. I'm saying there is no reason to not cover all grounds when in a PuG, since some people may not be at a point where they can handle it, so being ready to pick up their slack is a considerate thing to do, since in a PuG everything goes. Your problem is that everyone is out to get you and ruin your day when you willingly join a PuG. You find it inconsiderate that others do not "respect" your fun as you join literal chaos. And where do you get the idea from that I think it is linear progression? Also, no game, be it linear or not, is designed around the highest builds. The few games that are are the fake progression games like Destiny 2 and other power level based piles of S#&$ that hard cap you based on the zone levels no matter what gear you carry. So you end up with everything always being the same no matter what new things you get.

It will suck all the same. Like dude, I already answered you on that.

It would need to kill effectively to start with in order to kill more effectively. It might kill less ineffectively, but still ineffectively none the less.

You wasting more time of others, being inconsiderate to them by experimenting in their game.

That may be true, but that does not result in you having been less inconsiderate getting to that point of performance. No one argued that you wouldnt get to a point eventually where the gun performs acceptably. The problem is you getting there, combined with your own view on consideration towards others. It isnt about what you find fun or not, it is about your own double standards. I as in I I do not care if you or anyone else experiments around me. I do however care that you call others inconsiderate while being just as if not more inconsiderate towards others by experimenting in public while throwing around your massive "knowledge" claims at the same time. Why are you even experimenting? You should know what you need to hit a mark you find fun already simply through your "experience". You straight up said you know what you build for, which clearly you dont if you need to test it, and test it in such a poor way at that.

No WF does not scale things according to the amount of players. The game just adds the spawns and health of an additional player. Scaling would imply it does like in other games, where things get harder the more players you add. Here they are the same as if you were solo, since it is the same amount of enemies per player and the same amount of enemy health per player for prio targets and the same amount of damage dealt by enemies. What we have is certain content that doesnt scale down, where we enter a mission at the max for a group no matter if grouped or solo. And of course there are missions where we can avoid fail states, but that does not apply to all missions, it doesnt apply to most missions even. In the majority you need sufficient damage in order to kill effectively or cheese with CC so the mission doesnt fail through objective destruction, or the timer simply running out.

No, consideration is very much trying to pull your weight. If you cant, that is one thing, if you chose not to, that is another. One is acceptable, the other isnt. And nowhere have I said using something else is wrong. The only one here saying anything is wrong is in fact you, since you've straight up called the majority of players stupid for playing the way we do instead of following your specific idea of fun. You are practically claiming that even DE are playing their game the wrong way, and that they are inconsiderate in their streams when they play with the public. Since they are running around and 1HK alot of stuff even if they arent using the most efficient builds to clear full acres of of mobs with a single sneeze.

Out of all my years playing different types of arpgs, looter shooters and mmorpgs you are a unique specimen, since you are the first I've ran into since back in the 90's that want to play a game centered on farming and mass slaughter as slow as you possibly can. While also calling out everyone else as playing it the wrong way.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Whoops, I lied. Best take advantage of it to get those likes

The hilarious part is that you're trolling for attention while being farmed for likes.

And the sad fact is people aren't even actively trying.  You've spent the better part of 20+ pages on a circular argument that is completely unwinnable with points that are demonstrably false. 

I don't personally have a dog in this particular fight except continued amusement watching you crash out.  I'm just making you aware of how the majority perceives you at this point.

So by all means, carry on good sir.

[Merkranire]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No one is arguing for overkill. I'm also fairly often advocating we could use some serious nerfs in the game. I'm saying there is no reason to not cover all grounds when in a PuG, since some people may not be at a point where they can handle it, so being ready to pick up their slack is a considerate thing to do, since in a PuG everything goes. Your problem is that everyone is out to get you and ruin your day when you willingly join a PuG. You find it inconsiderate that others do not "respect" your fun as you join literal chaos. And where do you get the idea from that I think it is linear progression? Also, no game, be it linear or not, is designed around the highest builds. The few games that are are the fake progression games like Destiny 2 and other power level based piles of S#&$ that hard cap you based on the zone levels no matter what gear you carry. So you end up with everything always being the same no matter what new things you get.

It will suck all the same. Like dude, I already answered you on that.

It would need to kill effectively to start with in order to kill more effectively. It might kill less ineffectively, but still ineffectively none the less.

You wasting more time of others, being inconsiderate to them by experimenting in their game.

That may be true, but that does not result in you having been less inconsiderate getting to that point of performance. No one argued that you wouldnt get to a point eventually where the gun performs acceptably. The problem is you getting there, combined with your own view on consideration towards others. It isnt about what you find fun or not, it is about your own double standards. I as in I I do not care if you or anyone else experiments around me. I do however care that you call others inconsiderate while being just as if not more inconsiderate towards others by experimenting in public while throwing around your massive "knowledge" claims at the same time. Why are you even experimenting? You should know what you need to hit a mark you find fun already simply through your "experience". You straight up said you know what you build for, which clearly you dont if you need to test it, and test it in such a poor way at that.

No WF does not scale things according to the amount of players. The game just adds the spawns and health of an additional player. Scaling would imply it does like in other games, where things get harder the more players you add. Here they are the same as if you were solo, since it is the same amount of enemies per player and the same amount of enemy health per player for prio targets and the same amount of damage dealt by enemies. What we have is certain content that doesnt scale down, where we enter a mission at the max for a group no matter if grouped or solo. And of course there are missions where we can avoid fail states, but that does not apply to all missions, it doesnt apply to most missions even. In the majority you need sufficient damage in order to kill effectively or cheese with CC so the mission doesnt fail through objective destruction, or the timer simply running out.

No, consideration is very much trying to pull your weight. If you cant, that is one thing, if you chose not to, that is another. One is acceptable, the other isnt. And nowhere have I said using something else is wrong. The only one here saying anything is wrong is in fact you, since you've straight up called the majority of players stupid for playing the way we do instead of following your specific idea of fun. You are practically claiming that even DE are playing their game the wrong way, and that they are inconsiderate in their streams when they play with the public. Since they are running around and 1HK alot of stuff even if they arent using the most efficient builds to clear full acres of of mobs with a single sneeze.

Out of all my years playing different types of arpgs, looter shooters and mmorpgs you are a unique specimen, since you are the first I've ran into since back in the 90's that want to play a game centered on farming and mass slaughter as slow as you possibly can. While also calling out everyone else as playing it the wrong way.

You told me you treat the game as so strictly linear in that other topic! That makes it overkill when you jump into something that’s not the highest content you can do with builds designed for that content due to cause and effect! You can say you want nerfs, but you’re terrified of them and your actions prove otherwise since you can’t even choose to set the overkill aside for the content you’re doing even when doing so opens up slots and capacity to use for alternative building while leaving space for both the game and others in multiplayer to breath

I don’t experiment in multiplayer if I can help it, it might just so happen that I might misjudge something in multiplayer using solo as my guide that then makes me reconsider the build I designed for multiplayer while I push builds further in solo because I know I’m pushing them unless I make the others aware that I’m pushing it in some sort of, I dunno, premade! And reconsidering builds for multiplayer includes considering how frequently I’m picking up someone else’s slack, which is a rare enough occurrence at the moment, and I’ve got options outside my build anyways to facilitate slack-carrying, and if we need to drop out early because someone tested their build in solo and got crushed and decided to jump into multiplayer anyways without the consideration I’d show, so be it, but I’m going to have words with that player afterwards to find out what’s up.

This has been said before but you either missed it or are trying to twist it. Your accusations of my double standard are predicated on notions that I blindly jump into multiplayer, when I said I already know what I’m built for based on solo play and using that as the baseline I then make adjustments for multiplayer consideration, which should be adequate since you claim that there’s no scaling for multiplayer while the game scales HP and spawnrates according to the amount of players. And there’s far more thought and consideration behind it than your “Pick up the slack of others through overkill”, to the point that I think you’re struggling with wrapping your head around just how much actually goes into identifying how to help without taking all the game in a game where we don’t have player level indicators to help match us to the level if content being done, and I’m thinking it’s because you never tried that you are struggling to understand and instead can only paint it like some kind of boogeyman when it’s actually aligned in concept with what you claim to argue for when you say you’re fine with things like nerfs (though no nerfing is required at the moment, so favourite builds remain untouched)

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

If DE absolutely wanted us to play at a certain power level against certain content, they would power cap us like Destiny does.

DE does NOT do this; they let us bring whatever we have into whatever mission we want to run, and blast our way through.

Maybe you should be petitioning DE for a curated power synch'd multiplayer mode that levels the playing field, no matter what builds people bring in, so everyone's playing at the same power. I don't know why they'd do this, but that's what you're basically asking for... except you're trying to enforce all players to alter their builds (which often require forma and become extremely specialized, not open to changing easily), for each and every mission they choose to enter, when the level of the enemies change between missions.

Do you see how unreasonable this sounds? Do you know what you're asking for? I don't think you do, and if you do, I cannot support you in the least, and will continue to disagree, protest proposals, and present reasons for why it's a bad fit for THIS game, whenever they are presented in whatever forum posts are created.

[JohnMorte]

non-nuke builds are just fine, they simply serve a different purpose. attempting to take your single target DPS weapons into a public fissure mission intended for quickly opening relics and expecting yourself to not lag far behind is quite silly.

complaining about nuke frames is like complaining about loki not being an effective tank. rethink your approach.

[Merkranire]

4 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

If DE absolutely wanted us to play at a certain power level against certain content, they would power cap us like Destiny does.

DE does NOT do this; they let us bring whatever we have into whatever mission we want to run, and blast our way through.

Maybe you should be petitioning DE for a curated power synch'd multiplayer mode that levels the playing field, no matter what builds people bring in, so everyone's playing at the same power. I don't know why they'd do this, but that's what you're basically asking for... except you're trying to enforce all players to alter their builds (which often require forma and become extremely specialized, not open to changing easily), for each and every mission they choose to enter, when the level of the enemies change between missions.

Do you see how unreasonable this sounds? Do you know what you're asking for? I don't think you do, and if you do, I cannot support you in the least, and will continue to disagree, protest proposals, and present reasons for why it's a bad fit for THIS game, whenever they are presented in whatever forum posts are created.

Understand that it’s a range of levels and content you’re building for, not single missions, though if you are so inclined, the option is there to tweak according to what you’re doing. You can work in broad strokes even though you’re not taking the one build to rule them all that destroys everything, but cause and effect dictate that if you go too low beyond the level range you’re built for, a range which can span maybe 20 levels (not sure myself what the minimum is, but it’s not a small number), you start overkilling and could stand to reconsider the build if you’re jumping into multiplayer (do whatever you want in solo), but you do you.

 

DE not enforcing a stat squash per level makes absolute sense for many reasons, one if them being if you’re going to get squashed, replace the damn thing that’s being squashed; if you’re being squashed so that Serration is not doing anything, replace Serration with something else that still provides benefit to gameplay even if it doesn’t increase damage. That’s why I find some player’s views on Damage Attenuation, a system very much designed to squash us, so odd, because those players don’t go “Huh, doing too much damage, what damage can I replace with something else I’d like to use?”, instead they act like the system was introduced for us to find some esoteric combination that bypasses it?

What the hell? You wanna talk unreasonable, using dragon keys to shieldgate abuse and then calling it a balancing tactic is unreasonable. Using Steel Path, the game mode that DE themselves have said they don’t balance around and anyone with two braincells can see is warped, as the warped measuring stick for what works and what doesn’t is unreasonable. *@##$ing and moaning about how AoE got nerfed because it was doing the thing I’m avoiding is unreasonable. Good job with that, by the way

 

Right now it’s a choice to play nice with others, or DE could step in and babysit us. I think, instead of DE having to do it for me by taking away my toys I like using however I want in Solo (if not in Multiplayer if it’s in a group who, through communication, is fine with me crushing the game for them), it’s reasonable to choose to not hog all the game on our own terms instead of DE’s in multiplayer and consider other players, plus I get to make and use alternative builds drawing from the pool of everything I’ve earned so far that I make to be fun according to what I want to play like while also considering the content I’m bringing it to and the potential players I’m playing with. Plus I join in order to play with other players, it’s not some necessary evil, but when I get sidelined and have to compete for things to do, it gets a little annoying!

edit: Also, Forma being a specialisation system is not news, I’ve removed one or two because in general I wanted more flexibility for myself, nevermind playing with others

Edited February 19 by Merkranire

[Berzerkules]

23 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Understand that it’s a range of levels and content you’re building for, not single missions, though if you are so inclined, the option is there to tweak according to what you’re doing. You can work in broad strokes even though you’re not taking the one build to rule them all that destroys everything, but cause and effect dictate that if you go too low beyond the level range you’re built for, a range which can span maybe 20 levels (not sure myself what the minimum is, but it’s not a small number), you start overkilling and could stand to reconsider the build if you’re jumping into multiplayer (do whatever you want in solo), but you do you.

 

DE not enforcing a stat squash per level makes absolute sense for many reasons, one if them being if you’re going to get squashed, replace the damn thing that’s being squashed; if you’re being squashed so that Serration is not doing anything, replace Serration with something else that still provides benefit to gameplay even if it doesn’t increase damage. That’s why I find some player’s views on Damage Attenuation, a system very much designed to squash us, so odd, because those players don’t go “Huh, doing too much damage, what damage can I replace with something else I’d like to use?”, instead they act like the system was introduced for us to find some esoteric combination that bypasses it?

What the hell? You wanna talk unreasonable, using dragon keys to shieldgate abuse and then calling it a balancing tactic is unreasonable. Using Steel Path, the game mode that DE themselves have said they don’t balance around and anyone with two braincells can see is warped, as the warped measuring stick for what works and what doesn’t is unreasonable. *@##$ing and moaning about how AoE got nerfed because it was doing the thing I’m avoiding is unreasonable. Good job with that, by the way

 

Right now it’s a choice to play nice with others, or DE could step in and babysit us. I think, instead of DE having to do it for me by taking away my toys I like using however I want in Solo, it’s reasonable to choose to not hog all the game in multiplayer and consider other players, plus I get to make and use alternative builds drawing from the pool of everything I’ve earned so far that I make to be fun according to what I want to play like while also considering the content I’m bringing it to and the potential players I’m playing with. Plus I join in order to play with other players, it’s not some necessary evil, but when I get sidelined and have to compete for things to do, it gets a little annoying!

edit: Also, Forma being a specialisation system is not news, I’ve removed one or two because in general I wanted more flexibility for myself, nevermind playing with others

you're ridiculous

I'd like to see a friendly co-op build built for this. 

 

These are enemies we fight in the first few days of starting the game and they are balanced around that. By your logic everyone should just avoid lith fissures because no matter what you take you are going to be overpowered for the mission unless you're using unmodded starter frames/weapons. 

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, Berzerkules said:

you're ridiculous

I'd like to see a friendly co-op build built for this. 

 

These are enemies we fight in the first few days of starting the game and they are balanced around that. By your logic everyone should just avoid lith fissures because no matter what you take you are going to be overpowered for the mission unless you're using unmodded starter frames/weapons. 

Oh yeah, I forgot that the whole game is a bunch of level 7-9 missions.

Dude, sure, you win that one, and no sarcasm this time. You showed me a mission that even modless can overkill

edit: Christ… I mean come on.

”Here’s a mission we have no control over how easy it is, balanced to be an easy introduction for players who don’t even have the option of building alternatively, forget for higher content; if you’re going to jump into the mission in multiplayer, do you get mad when the other players who also have no control turn out to be superfluous by default?”.

Jesus

Edited February 19 by Merkranire

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

You told me you treat the game as so strictly linear in that other topic! That makes it overkill when you jump into something that’s not the highest content you can do with builds designed for that content due to cause and effect! You can say you want nerfs, but you’re terrified of them and your actions prove otherwise since you can’t even choose to set the overkill aside for the content you’re doing even when doing so opens up slots and capacity to use for alternative building while leaving space for both the game and others in multiplayer to breath

Nope I didnt. And me wanting nerfs has nothing to do with if I want to reduce my power when running trivial content or not. I want nerfs so DE can make better endgame. I dont care if I blow through trivial lower content by overpowering it, since I've been through that low trivial content for years and years. There is zero fun in it for me to turn low content into the same as high content, since at that point I impose the systems I dislike from other games onto my self. There is a reason I get bored with and avoid those games and play WF and other games instead. Games where I can actually use my progress to farm low content as efficiently as possible while also jumping into high content from a higher risk and better reward.

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I don’t experiment in multiplayer if I can help it, it might just so happen that I might misjudge something in multiplayer using solo as my guide that then makes me reconsider the build I designed for multiplayer while I push builds further in solo because I know I’m pushing them unless I make the others aware that I’m pushing it in some sort of, I dunno, premade! And reconsidering builds for multiplayer includes considering how frequently I’m picking up someone else’s slack, which is a rare enough occurrence at the moment, and I’ve got options outside my build anyways to facilitate slack-carrying, and if we need to drop out early because someone tested their build in solo and got crushed and decided to jump into multiplayer anyways without the consideration I’d show, so be it, but I’m going to have words with that player afterwards to find out what’s up.

How do you manage to misjudge anything between solo and multiplayer when they are effectively the same? Didnt you claim to have knowledge about what you build for? Oh why yes you did! That means you can always avoid experimenting in multiplayer, since you should know to begin with. And how would you notice if someone isnt carrying their weight if you yourself isnt lacking aswell? There is no damage parcer in the game, there is no way for you to actually tell how much someone else is doing.

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

This has been said before but you either missed it or are trying to twist it. Your accusations of my double standard are predicated on notions that I blindly jump into multiplayer, when I said I already know what I’m built for based on solo play and using that as the baseline I then make adjustments for multiplayer consideration, which should be adequate since you claim that there’s no scaling for multiplayer while the game scales HP and spawnrates according to the amount of players. And there’s far more thought and consideration behind it than your “Pick up the slack of others through overkill”, to the point that I think you’re struggling with wrapping your head around just how much actually goes into identifying how to help without taking all the game in a game where we don’t have player level indicators to help match us to the level if content being done, and I’m thinking it’s because you never tried that you are struggling to understand and instead can only paint it like some kind of boogeyman when it’s actually aligned in concept with what you claim to argue for when you say you’re fine with things like nerfs (though no nerfing is required at the moment, so favourite builds remain untouched)

And you show time and time again that you dont know what you actually build for, hence why you've labeled a build as "arbitration build" when it cannot hold its own at all in the mode. Which was also a supposedly considerate build towards others. Heh which means it was intended for multiplayer in that shape and form. There is also no adjustment to be made in a "multiplayer build", since if you can solo with the build you can do multiplayer with it, because the HP and spawn density is nothing but your own lot, the same as in solo. So if you struggle in solo you will struggle to pull your own weight in MP. Something that is often not a problem, since people usually dont settle with just pulling their own weight, they tend to build for a run as efficient as possible for the best reward/minute, which tends to be the goal in looter games. Hence why min-max exsists in these games even if something is already easy, because it allows for better reward/minute.

Example: I dont have to run my Dual Ichor Kullervo to have a smooth time, I dont need to run anyhting even close to it for a smooth time. However, I'm farming, and using Dual Ichor on my Kullervo increases that farm efficiency by an absurd amount by increaseing KPM by between 50-100% depending on which frame/weapons I'd pick otherwise. That is more or less like having Hydroid, Khora or Necros present, or if we put it in a time perspective, it is like getting the value of 90-120 minutes for every actual hour played. And even with far worse options, the yield from farming is several time higher by "overbuilding" instead of just getting by.

And if you arent there with a free ticket of extra time on the day I kick the great bucket, then you really have no say in how I spend my time during the brief moment I pilot this fleshy suit of mine towards the afterlife level.

17 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

If DE absolutely wanted us to play at a certain power level against certain content, they would power cap us like Destiny does.

DE does NOT do this; they let us bring whatever we have into whatever mission we want to run, and blast our way through.

Maybe you should be petitioning DE for a curated power synch'd multiplayer mode that levels the playing field, no matter what builds people bring in, so everyone's playing at the same power. I don't know why they'd do this, but that's what you're basically asking for... except you're trying to enforce all players to alter their builds (which often require forma and become extremely specialized, not open to changing easily), for each and every mission they choose to enter, when the level of the enemies change between missions.

Do you see how unreasonable this sounds? Do you know what you're asking for? I don't think you do, and if you do, I cannot support you in the least, and will continue to disagree, protest proposals, and present reasons for why it's a bad fit for THIS game, whenever they are presented in whatever forum posts are created.

Whenever you write something here it is filled with truth, reason and logic.

🤘

[PR1D3]

On 2024-02-17 at 4:07 AM, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I've been for this idea in the past, but with the caveat and realization, that this would take a TREMENDOUS amount of work... more than likely to happen.

It would also have to come with a full MOD rework, removing percentage based increases in favor of controlled set amounts (because percentages and mutiplicative bonuses get out of hand really fast, and interact in ways that may not have been foreseen. Another game with similar issues is Path of Exile.)

 

Yeah, it's kind of a predicament. And actually, @PublikDomain did a really good proposal on doing it:

But I do acknowledge that this would be an undertaking as a lot of things would need to be tweaked. They kind of put themselves into a weird place, although I do think it's still possible. It's just that the longer it goes unaddressed, the deeper the hole gets dug, the more it's likely that the Rubicon will be crossed, and 'fixing' it all really does become not possible for reasons. If my optimism hasn't blinded me from us already crossing it XD. Cause some cleaning up and fat trimming would do wonders for the game. Just the teeny, tiny bit they did last year did wonders. Imagine if they actually had did those types fundamental gameplay fixes to the bone work of the game through out it's lifetime instead of letting things fester as they did?

On 2024-02-17 at 4:07 AM, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

The problem of the stat squish, is that it creates a much lower ceiling... one that eliminates, or drastically reduces, the potential for players to progress very far in "endless" missions, where enemies continue to scale upward, well outside of even our current stat ranges, where players rely on similarly scaling mechanics and things like shield gating, to survive and kill enemies...

Endless missions are one facet of the game that has allowed DE to safely ignore adding new content at those extreme levels, as base gameplay modes, and not requiring them to balance around expecting players to interact with the game at those stat levels.

The Star Chart itself, along with Warframes and their abilities, are actually pretty well matched, all the way up to Sorties and Netracell missions, and the void with its modifiers.
Once you hit Steel Path, and Archon hunts with damage attenuation, the cracks in the system start becoming apparent. The stats weren't meant to interact at the higher end of the curve as it exists. Options become narrowed to the few weapons and frames that can be boosted into those ranges and take advantage of mechanics that "work around" the scaling stats or benefit from them in some way, or remove them in some way (which is why armor strip is so valuable.)

 

Respectfully disagree with the first part. Squish wouldn't necessarily remove that, cause our goal is not to remove that level of content it's actually to incorporate it. Albeit with different numbers flashing on your screen. 

On 2024-02-16 at 1:57 PM, Aldain said:

You wanna know the biggest issue Warframe has imo?

Comically inconsistent numbers curves.

You go from the standard Star Chart, in which everything is made of paper, to open worlds where things scale wonky as hell at times, to Steel Path where there's so much raw number bloat that it makes me physically ill.

Warframe's numbers problem is in consistency or lack thereof, it's completely non-Euclidian in how it develops (which is fitting considering Warframe itself) which creates this giant gap between "insipidly easy" and "annoyingly hard unless you out stat everything by an absurd degree".

This is our main point of contention when it comes to the difficulty. It's inconsistent, all over the place, with weird, awkward leaps in difficulty. You grab a level 100 enemy from Sorties, Arbitration, Normal, Steel Path and they all are have different numbers and scale differently. I personally think it doesn't have to be that way. I do believe that WF biggest strength that it doesn't use efficiently is it's sandbox. They have a myriad of ways to make gameplay challenging but the weird power discrepancies is unnecessarily chaotic. New or returning players must have a blast navigating all of this cold turkey.

Edited February 19 by PR1D3

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

1 hour ago, PR1D3 said:

Respectfully disagree with the first part. Squish wouldn't necessarily remove that, cause our goal is not to remove that level of content it's actually to incorporate it. Albeit with different numbers flashing on your screen. 

Infinitely scaling endless missions with infinitely scaling enemies, clashes with fixed stat bonus increases from player mods and warframe abilities (with fixed limits, now that they're stat squished into reasonable ranges), which would absolutely remove the ability for players to remain in infinitely scaled missions as long as they do now... unless something slips through the stat squish and bypasses infinite enemy stats...

...unless your stat squish still scales infinitely, which doesn't fit what I envision from such a squish. (OR if the upper limit of enemy scaling basically plateaus out within range of the squished stats... but at that point, there's no reason for the enemy stats to continue increasing infinitely. I believe the infinite scaling was meant to create a ceiling at some point that would force players to end the mission or force a fail scenario.)

I'm not a person who plays or enjoys infinitely scaling missions past the basic reward rotations (AABC style)... but those who DO keep going... I would expect, would want the extreme increase in challenge associated with the infinite scaling. I don't believe a nearly flattened infinite scaling plateau will satisfy this style of play... but I could be wrong.

 

[Merkranire]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope I didnt. And me wanting nerfs has nothing to do with if I want to reduce my power when running trivial content or not. I want nerfs so DE can make better endgame. I dont care if I blow through trivial lower content by overpowering it, since I've been through that low trivial content for years and years. There is zero fun in it for me to turn low content into the same as high content, since at that point I impose the systems I dislike from other games onto my self. There is a reason I get bored with and avoid those games and play WF and other games instead. Games where I can actually use my progress to farm low content as efficiently as possible while also jumping into high content from a higher risk and better reward.

Then you’ve very confidently forgotten, which comes as no real surprise considering the amount of times I find myself thinking “Didn’t they say earlier a thing which supports an opposite narrative?”, furthing the idea that you either flipflop as necessary or aren’t even paying attention to what you’re saying. Your idea of blowing through lower-level content is exactly what I’m arguing against when it comes to multiplayer (do whatever you want in solo), because I’m building for the content so it’s engaging while enabling alternative builds I want to use and wouldn’t be able to take to something higher-level due to how power comes with a literal cost in the mod system, and when I jump into multiplayer, you’re there enforcing upon me the very thing I’m actively avoiding while I’m also trying to keep others from experiencing what you complain about outside of their control (what they do with their builds is their choice).

Also, remind me again what endgame in this non-linear game is, because I’m curious as to what exactly DE are going to nerf for in this game that spreads itself across a variety of levels of content. Not that I think you’ll like it because I think you don’t know what you’re asking for because I’m describing things that you seem to not like and often straight up don’t understand and imagine as being far worse than it actually is, things that are the result of building for the content, and I think you’ve got some vague ill-defined idea that I would love to see crash headfirst into reality, but humour me about what DE should nerf for. Because I’m still doing Arbitrations 2k hours in alongside SP, and both already have their purpose and their balance (or lack thereof in SP’s case)

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

How do you manage to misjudge anything between solo and multiplayer when they are effectively the same? Didnt you claim to have knowledge about what you build for? Oh why yes you did! That means you can always avoid experimenting in multiplayer, since you should know to begin with. And how would you notice if someone isnt carrying their weight if you yourself isnt lacking aswell? There is no damage parcer in the game, there is no way for you to actually tell how much someone else is doing.

It happens even in Solo, dude. Due to interplay between everything, just changing a bit of kit elsewhere may shift the dynamic enough that I get blindsided a little despite my confidence in my builds.

So when I jump into Multiplayer with proven builds, and then opt to do something small like changing my Warframe or melee, it may come to pass that my effectiveness shifted due to any synergies or interplay; I’ll still be able to do the content because it’s a range I’m building for and I’m trying to build for that median, but sometimes I might end up on the lower end of the range, and that’s when I’ll do all that stuff I said I’d do out of consideration, assuming I’m even that far out in the first place if not accidentally building for higher in that range.

Just because you’re so confident about your jack-all knowledge, doesn’t mean you’ve guessed at how it works and the motivation behind actions taken and the result. I may not get much of a chance to even see whether I’m actually helping or not with randoms at the moment, but I’ve played with others in multiplayer where I have had a chance to see how it shakes out.

 

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And you show time and time again that you dont know what you actually build for, hence why you've labeled a build as "arbitration build" when it cannot hold its own at all in the mode. Which was also a supposedly considerate build towards others. Heh which means it was intended for multiplayer in that shape and form. There is also no adjustment to be made in a "multiplayer build", since if you can solo with the build you can do multiplayer with it, because the HP and spawn density is nothing but your own lot, the same as in solo. So if you struggle in solo you will struggle to pull your own weight in MP. Something that is often not a problem, since people usually dont settle with just pulling their own weight, they tend to build for a run as efficient as possible for the best reward/minute, which tends to be the goal in looter games. Hence why min-max exsists in these games even if something is already easy, because it allows for better reward/minute.

If you recall, and I doubt you do, that build originated in the other topic where you and I were arguing about builds that could or could not be taken to Steel Path. So I gave you a build that Arbitrations were going to push, but you’ll note, it wasn’t a build loaded up with exilus and relying on baseline damage, because I wasn’t going to give you a build I straight up wasn’t going to use in the content I was trying to make a point with.

So while you and Dark were banging on about how it’s not cutting it to your expectations, I’m sitting here thinking “Yeah, I figured. I still take it to Arbitrations because of the free slots and capacity, plus I want the fight to be a bit harder; can you pay attention to how the content is still getting a chance to breathe and extrapolate what that means?”, and because I know how the build performs, I’m telling you to try it in good faith (which you decided straight away that you knew better and made changes to the recipe despite my saying things like “Modless baseline start for the other pieces of kit in order to not skew results so dramatically as an invincible SP-built frame would”), then add a damage mod or whatever to beef it up a little.

In the other topic it was a build to show what works and what doesn’t for SP, in this topic it was a build that’s meant to show you what non-overkill-but-still-useable-outside-of-SP can even look like since you’re so out of touch you apparently need a reminder. Had I known you were so out of touch, I’d have suggested taking it to level 50 content from the start and your leg to stand on while you complain about its effectiveness (again, while I’m just looking on thinking “They’ve really missed the point”) is weakened if not gone.

At no point did I say take it to Multiplayer, I said try it in Simulacrum or Arbitrations assuming you were solo, and then in my case, I would make adjustments to it based on what I’ve learned in solo, potentially test again in solo unless I was really confident which I can afford to be because I have many data points across many builds and many loadouts and many missions and there’s only like roughly 6-or-so major level ranges for the non-SP game, and then jump in to Multiplayer because I’m expecting others to go further than a few rounds and to not be so interested in picking up my slack even if they appreciate that they get a chance to do something.

Hell, I would strongly reconsider using that build in multiplayer with my partner (using a myriad of considerations including whether the content we’re doing involves defending something other than our mobile selves and what she’s expected the fight to play out like) unless she was made aware that I’m going to do something most likely a little stupid and agrees to it, otherwise it’s seriously not that big of a deal to sacrifice something I may have already installed in order to pull my weight a little more effectively to the point that it’s completely reasonable from a game designer’s standpoint (note that I’m not using you as the reference point, and depending on the game designer), which does not mean building for SP for an Arbitration run that doesn’t go infinitely long

Edited February 20 by Merkranire

[Voltage]

On 2024-02-18 at 6:11 PM, Berzerkules said:

you're ridiculous

I'd like to see a friendly co-op build built for this. 

 

These are enemies we fight in the first few days of starting the game and they are balanced around that. By your logic everyone should just avoid lith fissures because no matter what you take you are going to be overpowered for the mission unless you're using unmodded starter frames/weapons. 

That'd be too overpowered since DE swapped out Mk1 gear for the base versions  in the tutorial.

Now I'm tempted to run a Mariana Lith Exterminate with unmodded Excalibur and base weapons while still clearing the mission fast in pubs, just to prove a point.

Edited February 20 by Voltage

[Merkranire]

10 minutes ago, Voltage said:

That'd be too overpowered since DE swapped out Mk1 gear for the base versions  in the tutorial.

Now I'm tempted to run a Mariana Lith Exterminate with unmodded Excalibur and base weapons while still clearing the mission fast in pubs, just to prove a point.

And what point are you going to prove, then?

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Merkranire said:

And what point are you going to prove, then?

That this discussion is silly. I've been following every page here and reserving myself from commenting until now, but this is really just the same discussion that's been had for a decade now.

Whether it's Ash Bladestorm, Saryn Miasma, Excalibur, Mag in Corpus maps, Ember World on Fire, Maiming Strike, Synoid Simulor, Telos Boltace, Kuva Bramma, Trinity with Sancti Castanas and Link, Thermal Sunder, Void Hole/Munitions Vortex/Seeker Volley in Railjack, Arquebex for Necramech, or a myriad of other options over the years, the game has been designed this way from the ground up as item farming is about mission repetition with substantial time requirements if you look at farms cumulatively.

The best examples of this are/were Fissures, Gian Point Railjack, and Netracells. In all cases, not rushing adds a substantial amount of cumulative mission time, and within the scope of how much there is to do in Warframe, this leads to several hours of unnecessary added time. I say unnecessary because most players have fun with the power creep and speed of mission rewards. If you want something to be completed a certain way, you just have to find like-minded players. Not nuking in Railjack makes armaments and intrinsic farming take eons, and the same goes for the 500+ unique Relics for various Prime sets out there. Netracells can be done in around 6 minutes by simply moving faster and grouping enemies faster to one shot.

Expecting the status quo to slow down without a massive shift to the core game (which would obliterate this playerbase) is foolish. Players have been rushing through missions since before we even had Parkour 2.0 in 2015 with Update 17: Echoes of the Sentients.

The point I was making above is how trivial it is to kill enemies in normal content. Player speed is often heavily overlooked. What determines your mission speed in most cases is not some easy-mode button, but your effective range in combat, which absolutely includes your downtime between moving to groups of enemies. In higher tier content, the only thing DE's been able to do to slow down players is "damage attenuation" (which is essentially rewarding crap builds while punishing people optimizing their damage). Knowledgeable players have already gotten around that too.

This discussion has some merit to it for sure, and I can understand why a nuke setup might annoy some players, but this is a 10 years old dead-beaten horse. If you dislike the rushing nature of most content, find another game. There are some things about this game that shouldn't and won't change. This is one of them.

I also want to add that I think this is why Soulframe is happening, because Warframe is too far gone and out of control to really try what Steve and co are looking to achieve. You can see this with the reception of Drifter and Kahl-175.

Edited February 20 by Voltage

[Tsukinoki]

43 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Expecting the status quo to slow down without a massive shift to the core game (which would obliterate this playerbase) is foolish. Players have been rushing through missions since before we even had Parkour 2.0 in 2015 with Update 17: Echoes of the Sentients.

Hey, lets be perfectly honest and fair: Players were rushing through missions well before that.

First it was constant butt-sliding to avoid running out of stamina.
Then it was zoren-coptering (which honestly could be faster than parkour 2.0 depending on tiles).
And only later on did we get good parkour that allowed you to speedrun without having a specific weapon equipped.

 

Players have been rushing through missions since practically the very beginning of the game.
Even when the game was "slower paced" (relatively speaking) you still largely just had players rushing through missions non-stop as quickly as they could.

 

It's just been a fact of this game since the very, very beginning.
Going through missions as fast as possible has just been what the majority of the playerbase has done the entire lifetime of the game.

47 minutes ago, Voltage said:

but this discussion is 10 years old. If you dislike the rushing nature of most content, find another game. There are some things about that game that shouldn't and won't change. This is one of them.

Fully agree with this.

Rushing through missions is what this game is basically about, and has been about since day 1.

[Voltage]

3 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Hey, lets be perfectly honest and fair: Players were rushing through missions well before that.

First it was constant butt-sliding to avoid running out of stamina.
Then it was zoren-coptering (which honestly could be faster than parkour 2.0 depending on tiles).
And only later on did we get good parkour that allowed you to speedrun without having a specific weapon equipped.

 

Players have been rushing through missions since practically the very beginning of the game.
Even when the game was "slower paced" (relatively speaking) you still largely just had players rushing through missions non-stop as quickly as they could.

 

It's just been a fact of this game since the very, very beginning.
Going through missions as fast as possible has just been what the majority of the playerbase has done the entire lifetime of the game.

Rushing through missions is what this game is basically about, and has been about since day 1.

I take your word for it. I started in U16 with Volt Prime Access.

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

That this discussion is silly. I've been following every page here and reserving myself from commenting until now, but this is really just the same discussion that's been had for a decade now.

Whether it's Ash Bladestorm, Saryn Miasma, Excalibur, Mag in Corpus maps, Ember World on Fire, Maiming Strike, Synoid Simulor, Telos Boltace, Kuva Bramma, Trinity with Sancti Castanas and Link, Thermal Sunder, Void Hole/Munitions Vortex/Seeker Volley in Railjack, Arquebex for Necramech, or a myriad of other options over the years, the game has been designed this way from the ground up as item farming is about mission repetition with substantial time requirements if you look at farms cumulatively.

The best examples of this are/were Fissures, Gian Point Railjack, and Netracells. In all cases, not rushing adds a substantial amount of cumulative mission time, and within the scope of how much there is to do in Warframe, this leads to several hours of unnecessary added time. I say unnecessary because most players have fun with the power creep and speed of mission rewards. If you want something to be completed a certain way, you just have to find like-minded players. Not nuking in Railjack makes armaments and intrinsic farming take eons, and the same goes for the 500+ unique Relics for various Prime sets out there. Netracells can be done in around 6 minutes by simply moving faster and grouping enemies faster to one shot.

Expecting the status quo to slow down without a massive shift to the core game (which would obliterate this playerbase) is foolish. Players have been rushing through missions since before we even had Parkour 2.0 in 2015 with Update 17: Echoes of the Sentients.

The point I was making above is how trivial it is to kill enemies in normal content. Player speed is often heavily overlooked. What determines your mission speed in most cases is not some easy-mode button, but your effective range in combat, which absolutely includes your downtime between moving to groups of enemies. In higher tier content, the only thing DE's been able to do to slow down players is "damage attenuation" (which is essentially rewarding crap builds while punishing people optimizing their damage). Knowledgeable players have already gotten around that too.

This discussion has some merit to it for sure, and I can understand why a nuke setup might annoy some players, but this discussion is 10 years old. If you dislike the rushing nature of most content, find another game. There are some things about that game that shouldn't and won't change. This is one of them.

Not the point I was expecting when you take a modless getup to level 10 content. That mission and gear combination is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting for your alleged point, and I’m not sure it’s up to it

Are you sure you’re even proving anything aside from “Here’s what modless in sub-level 10 looks like”? I had this whole snarky response planned out and everything, about how I would be waiting with bated breath for the results.

However fast you think you’re supposed to sprint to the end of this marathon of a game loaded with optional objectives, what you’re proposing… kind of sucks. I’ve seen players with more sense rightfully telling burnouts to take it slow, and then  when burnouts try to take it slow and enjoy the game and make the mistake of jumping into multiplayer thinking this community isn’t kind of stupid, there you are, waiting to force them into the playstyle they’re avoiding while telling them that they’re failing the race.

No wonder people feel pressured to “keep up”, a concept I always found confusing since, y’know, the game is comparatively quick to “finish” even though not everything is earned. 🤔 In fact, there’s a lot of thinking that players hold that always made me go “… you’re joking, right…?”

edit: Don’t get me wrong, I like the nonsense overpowered as much as the next person, but it’s pretty easy to, y’know, jump into more-appropriate content or rebuild when the novelty wears thin until such time as I want to experience it again, and in the meantime I’m playing a pretty fun game and drawing upon whatever I’ve been earning for years now without DE having to babysit me

Edited February 20 by Merkranire

[Voltage]

55 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Not the point I was expecting when you take a modless getup to level 10 content. That mission and gear combination is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting for your alleged point, and I’m not sure it’s up to it

Are you sure you’re even proving anything aside from “Here’s what modless in sub-level 10 looks like”? I had this whole snarky response planned out and everything, about how I would be waiting with bated breath for the results.

However fast you think you’re supposed to sprint to the end of this marathon of a game loaded with optional objectives, what you’re proposing… kind of sucks. I’ve seen players with more sense rightfully telling burnouts to take it slow, and then  when burnouts try to take it slow and enjoy the game and make the mistake of jumping into multiplayer thinking this community isn’t kind of stupid, there you are, waiting to force them into the playstyle they’re avoiding while telling them that they’re failing the race.

No wonder people feel pressured to “keep up”, a concept I always found confusing since, y’know, the game is comparatively quick to “finish” even though not everything is earned. 🤔 In fact, there’s a lot of thinking that players hold that always made me go “… you’re joking, right…?”

edit: Don’t get me wrong, I like the nonsense overpowered as much as the next person, but it’s pretty easy to, y’know, jump into more-appropriate content or rebuild when the novelty wears thin until such time as I want to experience it again, and in the meantime I’m playing a pretty fun game for years now

I wouldn't be as fast as a Titania player, but it'd definitely be comparatively fast (just because of tile memorization, parkour skill, and understanding the ease of use in spamming radial javelin and hitting headshots on low level Grineer in an Exterminate.

I'm not sure what exactly you've been arguing for in this thread as you've been all over the place. My point still stands that the pace at which Warframe is played at is a staple for why the game is popular in the first place.

Edited February 20 by Voltage

[Merkranire]

21 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I wouldn't be as fast as a Titania player, but it's definitely be comparatively fast (just because of tile memorization, parkour skill, and understanding the ease of use in spamming radial javelin on hitting headshots on low level Grineer in an Exterminate.

I'm not sure what exactly you've been arguing for in this thread as you've been all over the place. My point still stands that the pace at which Warframe is played at is a staple for why the game is popular in the first place.

I’ll take your word for it.

And I’m not surprised you’re not grasping what I’ve been saying in the thread considering your mindset, but I’m already engaged with someone else and am having a nightmare of a time just getting simple concepts across.

I’m aware that the way Warframe is often played is a popular way and that the popular way looks less like a third person shooter and more like a cookie clicker, I’m saying there’s another side that includes all the other options and ways to play as well. And since avoiding the cookie clicker playstyle is a part of keeping the game entertaining and the rewards valid, being forced into it (or something adjacent to it) against one’s will for the crime of joining a multiplayer match is not ideal

Edited February 20 by Merkranire

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

On 2/18/2024 at 5:07 PM, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

The hilarious part is that you're trolling for attention while being farmed for likes.

And the sad fact is people aren't even actively trying.  You've spent the better part of 20+ pages on a circular argument that is completely unwinnable with points that are demonstrably false. 

I don't personally have a dog in this particular fight except continued amusement watching you crash out.  I'm just making you aware of how the majority perceives you at this point.

So by all means, carry on good sir.

Fr lol, there’s a couple of forum farmers in this thread haha.

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

Play solo then. That's literally the only solution beyond making groups of your own.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Then you’ve very confidently forgotten, which comes as no real surprise considering the amount of times I find myself thinking “Didn’t they say earlier a thing which supports an opposite narrative?”, furthing the idea that you either flipflop as necessary or aren’t even paying attention to what you’re saying. Your idea of blowing through lower-level content is exactly what I’m arguing against when it comes to multiplayer (do whatever you want in solo), because I’m building for the content so it’s engaging while enabling alternative builds I want to use and wouldn’t be able to take to something higher-level due to how power comes with a literal cost in the mod system, and when I jump into multiplayer, you’re there enforcing upon me the very thing I’m actively avoiding while I’m also trying to keep others from experiencing what you complain about outside of their control (what they do with their builds is their choice).

Also, remind me again what endgame in this non-linear game is, because I’m curious as to what exactly DE are going to nerf for in this game that spreads itself across a variety of levels of content. Not that I think you’ll like it because I think you don’t know what you’re asking for because I’m describing things that you seem to not like and often straight up don’t understand and imagine as being far worse than it actually is, things that are the result of building for the content, and I think you’ve got some vague ill-defined idea that I would love to see crash headfirst into reality, but humour me about what DE should nerf for. Because I’m still doing Arbitrations 2k hours in alongside SP, and both already have their purpose and their balance (or lack thereof in SP’s case)

Nope, since it is hard to say WF is linear when it is a sandbox to begin with. Although, enemies are linear, since their levels are tied to their health and damage output, You are also arguing about "when it comes to multiplayer" when you are willingly joining PuGs. You are not more important than anyone else, so if things dont play the way you like it when you join something random you simply shouldnt complain. No reason for others to bend to your will when you all agreed to something with a random outcome. It just means that your playstyle isnt the accepted norm, so live with it. It's like joining a car race where you are allowed to bring any car you want and then complain because you picked a Ford Anglia from the 50s while someone else brought a street race hotrod. You also think everyone shares your view that the important part is engangement. Even though I just went through that I'm playing to farm items in a looter game, so while engagement is great when available, I'm not going to slow down a key part of what is fun to me to cater to you or anyone else that joins a random group with me. Since we all signed up knowing that it is random, meaning we can end up with players that have any form of goal and view on the very very very subjective notion of fun.

You think only linear games can have endgame? It's a live service and constantly growing game, we have plenty of endgame that has come over the years in different shapes and forms. It all depends where the power is at in the game. Trials, conflicts, eidolons, liches, arbis, sp, (e)so, cells, archons etc. are all endgame activities, or were at one point. Look at it all like dungeons, heroic dungeons and raids of an MMORPG, where they are all endgame activities, where you need dungeons to progress into heroic dungeons that you need in order to clear raids which then often comes in tiers. And that is what future endgame should build on, which is why nerfs are needed, so the latest endgame additions can be more balanced and well easier to balance aswell. It's not about nerfing us so we end up with new endgame that is placed somewhere between liches and arbitrations for instance, they should be placed either at or after cells/archons, depending on if DE wants to add upgrades or side grades with unique mechanics tied to them i.e do they want to add "shards" or do they want to add "incarnons" if you get my point.

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

It happens even in Solo, dude. Due to interplay between everything, just changing a bit of kit elsewhere may shift the dynamic enough that I get blindsided a little despite my confidence in my builds.

What does? I'm not following what you answer to here. Are you saying that you are able to tell that you are not pulling your own weight in solo, or that you arent really sure how powerful/weak your build is? If it's the first, well thank the gods for that since it would be quite shocking if you cannot tell if you can pull your weight or not when you are the only one there. If it is the second, well then you claimed you have knowledge when you uhm dont...

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

So when I jump into Multiplayer with proven builds, and then opt to do something small like changing my Warframe or melee, it may come to pass that my effectiveness shifted due to any synergies or interplay; I’ll still be able to do the content because it’s a range I’m building for and I’m trying to build for that median, but sometimes I might end up on the lower end of the range, and that’s when I’ll do all that stuff I said I’d do out of consideration, assuming I’m even that far out in the first place if not accidentally building for higher in that range.

If you have knowledge and as you noted in your quote further up, 2k hours in the game, then that really shouldnt happen. That you use "accidentally" in your phrasing means you lack the knowledge you claim. So you are as inconsiderate in this case just as much as anyone else you claim is inconsiderate towards you. So off that high horse of yours and embrace the chaos of PuGs, or uhm dont PuG if you have special needs at all times. Pre-mades -> thataway.

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Just because you’re so confident about your jack-all knowledge, doesn’t mean you’ve guessed at how it works and the motivation behind actions taken and the result. I may not get much of a chance to even see whether I’m actually helping or not with randoms at the moment, but I’ve played with others in multiplayer where I have had a chance to see how it shakes out.

Am I sensing anger brewing? And good for you that you've had a chance in groups to see how it shakes out, I enjoy that very often when I play. What exactly does that matter though? Still you are grumpy mcsourface over the eye of terror worthy chaos of PuGs, and angry over being in a minority outside of the minority outside of the norm regarding how people enjoy these games and why they play them for the most part. Would you raise your voice if you enter a bar with the vague sign saying "music night" and they happen to play music you dont like? You entered, you knew it was going to be music, but not which type of music, same as a PuG, you know different styles exsists, different preferences etc. and you still expect your very fringe style and taste will be common?

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

If you recall, and I doubt you do, that build originated in the other topic where you and I were arguing about builds that could or could not be taken to Steel Path. So I gave you a build that Arbitrations were going to push, but you’ll note, it wasn’t a build loaded up with exilus and relying on baseline damage, because I wasn’t going to give you a build I straight up wasn’t going to use in the content I was trying to make a point with.

I'm fully aware, you also claimed it did fine in arbitrations, which it doesnt/didnt.

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

So while you and Dark were banging on about how it’s not cutting it to your expectations, I’m sitting here thinking “Yeah, I figured. I still take it to Arbitrations because of the free slots and capacity, plus I want the fight to be a bit harder; can you pay attention to how the content is still getting a chance to breathe and extrapolate what that means?”, and because I know how the build performs, I’m telling you to try it in good faith (which you decided straight away that you knew better and made changes to the recipe despite my saying things like “Modless baseline start for the other pieces of kit in order to not skew results so dramatically as an invincible SP-built frame would”), then add a damage mod or whatever to beef it up a little.

And you still fail to realize the test was done with every single benefit going your way, with things to make it stronger than it could possibly get otherwise, yet it failed miserably to do the content it was labeled for.

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

In the other topic it was a build to show what works and what doesn’t for SP, in this topic it was a build that’s meant to show you what non-overkill-but-still-useable-outside-of-SP can even look like since you’re so out of touch you apparently need a reminder. Had I known you were so out of touch, I’d have suggested taking it to level 50 content from the start and your leg to stand on while you complain about its effectiveness (again, while I’m just looking on thinking “They’ve really missed the point”) is weakened if not gone.

An under achieving build for content outside of SP aswell. So clearly not a build done in good faith. If it was you would have come up with a build that struggled in SP while still using all mod slots etc. Since your point in that thread was that SP requires very specific builds. Which you again regurgitate in this thread now as you again manage to bring up that SP is imbalance, yet fail to formulate how SP is imbalanced. Which as I said in the other thread is just a massive misconception of people that dont want to progress. Which you also proved by providing your "build" which cant even handle high SC in any reasonable fashion.

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

At no point did I say take it to Multiplayer, I said try it in Simulacrum or Arbitrations assuming you were solo, and then in my case, I would make adjustments to it based on what I’ve learned in solo, potentially test again in solo unless I was really confident which I can afford to be because I have many data points across many builds and many loadouts and many missions and there’s only like roughly 6-or-so major level ranges for the non-SP game, and then jump in to Multiplayer because I’m expecting others to go further than a few rounds and to not be so interested in picking up my slack even if they appreciate that they get a chance to do something.

Mmm but what is the point of you being upset with content that "requires specific" builds if it comes down to solo play? How does SP in the case of the other thread hurt you by exsisting and being seen as "the mode to live" by others? And when all you do is provide a damage "build" when you speak as if SP doesnt allow you to utilize some specific build that does something unique? You can do SP perfectly fine with an Argonak modded for radiation for instance, you just add more damage to it. As I said in the other thread, the build plays exactly the same no matter if you settle with 3 damage mods or 8. You for instance arent making use of any unique mechanics in those other mod slots, so your argument there that SP somehow destroys your build options is uhm not true. We can just pop over to the Grimoire to see just how many unique mechanics SP actually allows you to build for while still retaining the potential for the item to kill in that mode at a rather efficient rate. For Grimoire many pure damage increases go missing due to building for the specific mechanics of the item, this while also not having neither the most stellar damage type nor damage stats at the base. It is a full electric weapon with decent at best projectile speed, low fire rate and acceptable crit and status. Still it works well in SP while building for what makes it unique.

17 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Hell, I would strongly reconsider using that build in multiplayer with my partner (using a myriad of considerations including whether the content we’re doing involves defending something other than our mobile selves and what she’s expected the fight to play out like) unless she was made aware that I’m going to do something most likely a little stupid and agrees to it, otherwise it’s seriously not that big of a deal to sacrifice something I may have already installed in order to pull my weight a little more effectively to the point that it’s completely reasonable from a game designer’s standpoint (note that I’m not using you as the reference point, and depending on the game designer), which does not mean building for SP for an Arbitration run that doesn’t go infinitely long

That doesnt matter. Your partner =/= people in a PuG. Your consideration or lack of towards eachother has no meaning to a subject about public random grouping where we accept everything as OK as we click the button that makes the game find us a random group of players. 

"From a game designer's standpoint" is also uhm vague. You talk as if the level of difficulty is where the standpoint ends. But it really ends in optimal efficiency, since it is possible to reach that point, the game is designed to support that people may seek and eventually reach that point. Otherwise spawns for instance would be limited, and we wouldnt be able to effectively have three times the efficiency of someone else. Which is something we can do, at which point were are long past the point of what you consider engaging or "a little more effectively" in comparison to that "standpoint". You wouldnt have KPS fluctuating from 1-3 more or less if the standpoint was rooted in engaging gameplay out of a "difficulty" viewpoint. We are looking at hunreds of enemies in difference between the efficiency of playres, from 60 to 120 to 180 per minute, which results in thousands per hour.

So the idea that things should be engaging and that it is a designer's standpoint and there is some reasonable range rooted within what you are doing (and you implying your gameplay approach is the correct one) isnt true. We have full freedom to go ape, with support to go with it.

[Merkranire]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Am I sensing anger brewing?

Just tired of repeating myself. I’d forgotten that you insisted I didn’t like SP despite my repeating otherwise, too

edit: ugh, re-reading and… my god. I want you to be a game designer and put some of your ideas to the test, I really do

Edited February 20 by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

6 hours ago, Voltage said:

I wouldn't be as fast as a Titania player, but it'd definitely be comparatively fast (just because of tile memorization, parkour skill, and understanding the ease of use in spamming radial javelin and hitting headshots on low level Grineer in an Exterminate.

I'm not sure what exactly you've been arguing for in this thread as you've been all over the place. My point still stands that the pace at which Warframe is played at is a staple for why the game is popular in the first place.

So anyways, yeah. 

Because I don’t want DE to take away your toys because they’re my toys too, I’d prefer a filter or something where the community gets split into at most two groups to prevent too much fragmentation, preferably; grinders and game-players (descriptors up for reworking), where people who focus on grind and have fun doing it or who live in a few builds that enable laid-back grinding can join one side, while others looking for something else involving gameplay with alternative and more build options and variety because they’re not so focused on grind efficiency can join the other side.

DE needs to step in and separate us since one player jumping into a group of four and built to grind optimally (or just built for way higher than the content even asks for) tends to call the shots

Edited February 20 by Merkranire