Best Tennokai Mod? [poll]

[Thorham]

17 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

He knows how to use it. But due to the chaos of battle and movement he typically misses the attack or because the indicator is very subtle he doesn't even notice it proc'd and be used until it's too late.

There's nothing subtle about it. It's both clearly visible and audible. Even with large numbers of enemies I can clearly see and hear the indicator and never miss a tennokai opportunity. Your buddy needs to step up his game.

23 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

My RNG is also bad.

Use the right mod. Discipline's Merit gets rid of the RNG entirely.

[Aruquae]

12 minutes ago, Thorham said:

There's nothing subtle about it. It's both clearly visible and audible. Even with large numbers of enemies I can clearly see and hear the indicator and never miss a tennokai opportunity. Your buddy needs to step up his game.

Agreed, that noise is so satisfying to hear when proccing, it, and the symbol is so large and annoying when you keep it hovering there. Nothing subtle about it

[quxier]

6 minutes ago, Thorham said:

32 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

He knows how to use it. But due to the chaos of battle and movement he typically misses the attack or because the indicator is very subtle he doesn't even notice it proc'd and be used until it's too late.

There's nothing subtle about it. It's both clearly visible and audible.

There is tone of visual and audio noise. Do you know that Grimoire have this "chanting sounds" when you press fire? You need to use low fire rate, which is not great for this weapon to hear it.

I bet with some setting you won't even see nor hear it too much. I'm going with low and I still see sometimes too much noise.

11 minutes ago, Thorham said:

. Even with large numbers of enemies I can clearly see and hear the indicator and never miss a tennokai opportunity. Your buddy needs to step up his game.

You can be in the middle of other action and you have to do it in 2 seconds. Possible? Yes. Can you miss? Yes. Unless you are just nerfing yourself, looking for Tennokai or using "on 4" or "4second" mods.

15 minutes ago, Thorham said:

41 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

My RNG is also bad.

Use the right mod. Discipline's Merit gets rid of the RNG entirely.

Tennokai based on RNG is bad? Use one that removes RNG. *slowly clap*  You just defeated yourself.

And "on 4" mod has this stupid counting. You have "strong unit". Kids, lets count to 4.

[Tiltskillet]

34 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

My RNG is also bad. I usually get procs at the very end of an encounter so end up having to use it on containers cause "Why not?"

New Tennokai mod idea:

Container's Reach

Enables Tennokai. Tennokai chance increased by 100%, range increased by 10m, but the activation window is delayed until there are no enemies within 20m.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2024-02-14 at 5:06 PM, Aldain said:

Dreamer's Wrath is probably the obvious pick for anything that can hit 100+% crit chance, followed by Master's Edge for things that just want solid hits.

But I could be wrong.

Edit: I mean specifically for anything not going full 12x Combo stacking (the "lol Corrupt Charge go brrr" builds), if that's the case then it's probably Discipline's Merit like Aruquae said.

It's like half a Gladiator's Might for only tennokai.  It's 3rd best imo.  Surprised to see Reach so low.  Range is ridiculous on several weapons, and can turn things like Nami Solo incarnon into an area nuke.  That's on top of doubling the use window.  4 seconds is nearly as long as base combo duration, so if an enemy dies while gaining tennokai, you can get to another mob/group and wipe them with the heavy.

 

On god, Wrath is higher because it's gold instead of silver, and "number go up" is the only thing some players care about.

[Aruquae]

13 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

New Tennokai mod idea:

Container's Reach

Enables Tennokai. Tennokai chance increased by 100%, range increased by 10m, but the activation window is delayed until there are no enemies within 20m.

Soooo… a normal Tennokai mod then?

[Aerikx]

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

New Tennokai mod idea:

Container's Reach

Enables Tennokai. Tennokai chance increased by 100%, range increased by 10m, but the activation window is delayed until there are no enemies within 20m.

😂 Love it. Haha.

[quxier]

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

4 hours ago, Aerikx said:

My RNG is also bad. I usually get procs at the very end of an encounter so end up having to use it on containers cause "Why not?"

New Tennokai mod idea:

Container's Reach

Enables Tennokai. Tennokai chance increased by 100%, range increased by 10m, but the activation window is delayed until there are no enemies within 20m.

DE: *taking notes*

3 hours ago, Aruquae said:

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

New Tennokai mod idea:

Container's Reach

Enables Tennokai. Tennokai chance increased by 100%, range increased by 10m, but the activation window is delayed until there are no enemies within 20m.

Soooo… a normal Tennokai mod then?

NO. Every hit can be tennokai but you can use it when no enemies are around.

To be honest that have SOME uses with ranged melees (gunblades, glaives, corufel etc). Maybe make it like 10 or something and it would be probably interesting mod. Niche but nice.

[UnstarPrime]

Personally I like the RNG because it keeps me a bit more engaged, which is why I lean towards Dreamer's Wrath with its increase proc chance.  But I also am well-aware that RNG isn't everyone's cup of tea.

I wonder: would anyone be in favor of a Tennokai mod that has the effect of making the Tennokai proc window infinite?  Functionally, the RNG would still randomly proc, but you wouldn't lose your proc by not using it right away, and could instead spend it at the exact moment you thought it would be worth using.

[quxier]

15 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

I wonder: would anyone be in favor of a Tennokai mod that has the effect of making the Tennokai proc window infinite?  Functionally, the RNG would still randomly proc, but you wouldn't lose your proc by not using it right away, and could instead spend it at the exact moment you thought it would be worth using.

I think I would be fine with it. At least I wouldn't criticize it that much, because it's exilus mod.

Getting free/faster heavy attack WHEN I need would be nice. If RNG proc might be not great (e.g. rarely proc) it would have to be hits from 2 to e.g. 10-15. However at this point I would ask, why not simply let us build Tennokai like Melee animosity (each hit increase next heavy crit chance). So each hit from 1-10 would have increase windup speed & heavy efficiency (no cap) from 10% to 100%.

Or in general, let us mod it, as I mentioned (new mods):

Quote

- Rapidus Instant strike: 7-10 drain, heavy attack is executed instantly (as fast as possible) but heavy attack has cooldown: 6/9/12/15 second

- Rapidus instant flow: 7-9 drain, heavy attack is executed instantly (same as above) but each attack is slower than previous via 6x/4x/2x. Not heavy attacking for 10 seconds reset heavy attack speed - it may be "instant speed" after 10 seconds OR speeding heavy attack speed to "instant speed" via percentage of not attacking (e.g. 5 seconds of not attacking would restore 1/2 of heavy attack speed)

However at this point it would lost that "non braindead feature" that it has now.

[(XBOX)INe Saninus]

13 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

It's like half a Gladiator's Might for only tennokai.  It's 3rd best imo.  Surprised to see Reach so low.  Range is ridiculous on several weapons, and can turn things like Nami Solo incarnon into an area nuke.  That's on top of doubling the use window.  4 seconds is nearly as long as base combo duration, so if an enemy dies while gaining tennokai, you can get to another mob/group and wipe them with the heavy.

 

On god, Wrath is higher because it's gold instead of silver, and "number go up" is the only thing some players care about.

^^^

3 meters range is an entire primed mod worth of range.

Sure, it's only on a tennokai attack...

Which also happens to be your most powerful melee attack...

With a longer timer tor repositioning.

 

The fact that it isn't number 1 is bonkers to me.

Only one I use.

[Raikh]

Overall I'd give it to Discipline's Merit.

Heavies are overkill for 99% of enemies for me, so I mostly care about the 1% where its actually worthwhile to press the button and for that consistency is the only thing that matters. Its tbh still quite a bit from what I'd ideally want from the system but Discipline's Merit is the closest to usefulness I'm getting for now.

Dreamer's Wrath is fine, mostly because its not only numbers go bigger but also icnreases the proc rate. But after using it over Merit for a bit, I jsut wanted to switch back. I don't think I've ever found myself thinking "man that Heavy Attack didn't hit hard enough" looking at 7-9 digit numbers w/o much or any setup. So I consider the 32% CD to be somewhat decorative.

The range one falls short for me purely because it does not improve proc frequency or reliability. If I have to fish for a proc the entire room might be dead before I get my blow up button ready, which just defeats the purpose of the entire thing. If it had the same effect as Dreamer's Wrath or a guarantee at 5-6 attacks I'd easily rate it higher but as it is the 15% proc chance just feels bad for the purposes I'd want more range for.
That extends to all others pretty much the same. Base 15% Proc chance sucks for reliability when most enemies die to a whiff anyway, so having it at the right time counts for much more than the potency of the attack.

Edited February 17 by Raikh

[sly_squash]

OP Here.

Just finished adding tennokai + arcanes to every melee in the game.  Pretty expensive little project (40p in adapters + usually 2-3 forma to finish polarizing every slot means the project prolly cost around 10k plat), but oh well gear is shinier now.

For now, I'm using Master's Edge but that's only because I don't have Dreamer's Wrath yet and it's the same polarity so when I do get dreamer's wrath I'll just be able to slot it everywhere without repolarization.

I do see the argument for Disciple's Merit though.  The reality is most of the time the damage is already going to be overkill so having consistency may be better overall.  Heck, I imagine you can develop a nice cadence to your attacks where heavy attacking after every 4th strike just becomes part of your natural rhythm.

However, in some ways the argument between Increased Proc Frequency and Proc Consistency is a difficult one to address, because I still don't know the answer to the question: 

What is the baseline TennoKai proc rate?

Obviously the proc rate for Disciples Merit is after 25% of attacks and with a predictable cadence.  What do you think the base rate is with other TennoKai?  I think I read somewhere it's 15%?  If that's true and Dreamer's Wrath ups that percentage by 50%, then that still puts us at about 22% slightly lagging Disciple's Merit and inconsistent to boot.

Edited February 18 by sly_squash

[Thorham]

On 2024-02-16 at 5:35 PM, quxier said:

Tennokai based on RNG is bad? Use one that removes RNG. *slowly clap*  You just defeated yourself.

Yeah, it's a little bit obvious, isn't it?

[quxier]

7 minutes ago, Thorham said:

On 2024-02-16 at 5:35 PM, quxier said:

Tennokai based on RNG is bad? Use one that removes RNG. *slowly clap*  You just defeated yourself.

Yeah, it's a little bit obvious, isn't it?

Obvious that RNG-based Tennokai is bad? Yeah.

[Thorham]

2 minutes ago, quxier said:

Obvious that RNG-based Tennokai is bad? Yeah.

Yes, it is. It's not useful at all. So? Just use the right mod and it becomes very nice indeed. What else to put in that exilus slot anyway?

[0_The_F00l]

5 minutes ago, Thorham said:

Yes, it is. It's not useful at all. So? Just use the right mod and it becomes very nice indeed. What else to put in that exilus slot anyway?

Ah yes , if they don't like bread just eat cake instead.

Sure , that's an option i suppose.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Spotting a few different questions and wonderings in various comments, the TheKengineer has a pretty good video on Tennokai mods. They are pretty reliable, and consistent as far as their claims, explanations and testing. Here is a link for you, if you are curious. Especially as far as some of the numbers and percentages. 

For myself personally, subjectively speaking? I like and enjoy and use Tennokai. I don't think its perfect though, and could be improved somewhat and I agree with some of the criticisms I have seen, as well as have some of my own. Its fun and improves many of my builds DPS though, so overall I appreciate the addition.

As far as which Tennokai Mod I think is the best? Depends. I have different melee weapons, builds and playstyles attached to each. Not to mention different types of challenges in Warframe, as far as missions, enemies, difficulty, challenge, and synergies with Warframes and weapons. Some days I am in a rush, trying to do max DPS as fast as possible, and another, I am looking for a slower, solo, pace in an endurance, where I want to be more engaged and thoughtful. Thus, what Tennokai I think is best for a given situation, will change. I do generally like Opportunities Reach though, for many of those scenarios. I like the increased window opportunity, so I can be a bit mores elective with using my heavy/Tennokai attack. Especially since a lot of the melee I use for Tennokai, can have gimmick or special heavy attacks. The extra range is a nice bonus. I like Dreamers Wraith on some others. Disciplines Wraith on builds, where I think regular melee attacks with the weapon are far weaker and less important than the Heavy. I don't use too many of those regularly though. The RNG nature/inconsistency doesn't really bother me, like it does some. Sometimes I actually can enjoy it. Again, depends. 

Do hope we get some new Mods that might be a bit more specialised towards different weapon strengths/weaknesses (like maybe one that might buff follow through, or one that might allow a double heavy but sacrifice something elsewhere, so of like a Corrupted Tennokai mod), even if they make them weapon type specific. Just because some heavy attacks for some weapon types are better than others, and some cool weapon types could do with some buffs and this could be a way. 

[Thorham]

17 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ah yes , if they don't like bread just eat cake instead.

Well, yes. Finding something else to eat wouldn't be a bad idea.

Anyway, this is basically someone complaining about something being crap because they used the wrong mod. Seems kinda silly.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Thorham said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Obvious that RNG-based Tennokai is bad? Yeah.

Yes, it is. It's not useful at all. So? Just use the right mod and it becomes very nice indeed.

Very nice may be... well it's subjective at least. It's at least very different.

4 hours ago, Thorham said:

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ah yes , if they don't like bread just eat cake instead.

Well, yes. Finding something else to eat wouldn't be a bad idea.

Anyway, this is basically someone complaining about something being crap because they used the wrong mod. Seems kinda silly.

As for me, I'm complaining that RNG-based Tennokai is bad. I exclude "on 4" mod because it's different system, imho.

[Thorham]

17 hours ago, quxier said:

I exclude "on 4" mod because it's different system, imho.

Isn't that convenient 🙄

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Thorham said:

20 hours ago, quxier said:

I exclude "on 4" mod because it's different system, imho.

Isn't that convenient 🙄

Maybe. However it's stupid to talk about 2 version of tennokai because they are very different in execution.

[Thorham]

13 hours ago, quxier said:

However it's stupid to talk about 2 version of tennokai because they are very different in execution.

They're not. There's one tennokai, and it's activation is based on regular melee hits. If you don't mind the randomness, then mod with that in mind. If you don't like the randomness, then mod with that in mind.

This is basically how the whole games works. You like one thing, you mod for it. You like something else, you mod for it.