Eclipse Update (Dev response)

[Redrigoth]

49 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

i dont see how this is a "bad faith bs argument"... this was an expected change, and if you didnt expect it, thats not my problem or anybody elses. the changes to eclipse have already been decided and the topic for providing feedback for eclipse has been closed. yes it makes eclipse less useful. this was to be expected. yes its not a great change. i said on the eclipse megathread(the appropriate place for feedback on this) that i didnt think it was a good change to start with. what good do you expect crying about it after the fact will do? whether you like it or not, this is what everyone said they wanted. and if youve been around more than a couple months you should realize that what warframe players SAY they want often isnt actually what they want once it happens. nothing will come of getting mad at me over it, just like nothing will come of trying to revive the topic once yall realize it wasnt the great change yall all thought it would be. as i said before. this thread has no real reason to exist

Clean your ears this time.
People requested toggle with reduced %.
That means instead of Variable 95% damage reduction + 200% multiplicative in a single ability, it becomes a toggle between something like either 65% damage reduction or 130% multiplicative damage buff.
Nobody asked for "make the damage buff 230% but additive with serration" as you claim.
Do you understand the point now?

Edited February 24 by Redrigoth

[Redrigoth]

5 minutes ago, DeathOfASaint said:

i know how damage formulas work man

 175% multiplicative dmg is still higher than what roar provides which is like 30% at base lmfao

obviously they weren't let it gonna slide through 

Roar is 50% not 30% on Rhino and it applies to abilities and applies quadratically on status procs which are one of the best ways to kill enemies (slash on grineer, toxin on corpus).
Eclipse is 150% on helminth not 175% and it only gives weapon damage (procs too but not double dip).

Also what's up with all these arguments passing by the main issue which is the "additive to serration" conversion and instead arguing about the % instead?

[KitMeHarder]

11 minutes ago, DeathOfASaint said:

i know how damage formulas work man

 175% multiplicative dmg is still higher than what roar provides which is like 30% at base lmfao

... sure.

Roar is 50%, it doesn't work anything like Eclipse in the formula, nor is it weapon only. Not to mention it's also a teamwide buff.

[Numerounius]

I wouldn't call it a rework for starters it is still the same ability.

Meanwhile, if using it for its DR in helminth you literally don't even need to invest a single point into strength to get the full DR. Unless they are changing the quoted 90% to also be the adjusted value in helminth, currently helminth eclipse max DR is 75% and eclipse base DR is 75%.

The other stats don't play a big role into the ability either, range for total eclipse is about it but even then the clones get it regardless of range stat. Duration, recastable so not that big of a deal. Efficiency uh yeah that stat exists.

I feel like it would've been awesome if they introduced some new augments or adjusted some stuff so multiple ability stats played a role into both aspects of the ability, not just choking Mirage on strength to boost weapon damage and trying to, or not to, force that avenue of gameplay with eclipse.

Edited February 24 by Numerounius

[DeathOfASaint]

5 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

... sure.

Roar is 50%, it doesn't work anything like Eclipse in the formula, nor is it weapon only. Not to mention it's also a teamwide buff.

both are literally multiplicative buffs except status procs double dip with roar's buff

eclipse also has an augment which gives teammates the buff as well lol

ur just moving the goalpost atp

who are u trolling man

Edited February 24 by DeathOfASaint

[Skoomaseller]

1 hour ago, pwnSacrifice said:

I mean, for mirage, it's more or less a buff. Being able to control the buff you get is pretty huge. Yeah, it'll be base damage, but most of the time the defensive buff will be more useful imo. 

For everyone else that wanted it for damage, I mean nourish is right... Oh right. Nerfs.

Xata's whisper anyone? Roar?

I think it's all a bit hyperbolic to say mirage is dead, and eclipse has always been too unreliable to use as a weapon buff through helminth over other options (even smite or shock +Aug is more reliable). 

Now instead of trying to jam eclipse on for offense, we get a reliable damage reduction with an option for offense. Seems ok to me

i mean hall of mirrors is still a thing so i dont think it's really a nerf tbh

for helminth though, yeah it's probably a nerf lol

Edited February 24 by Skoomaseller

[Redrigoth]

5 minutes ago, DeathOfASaint said:

both are literally multiplicative buffs except status procs double dip with roar's buff

eclipse also has an augment which gives teammates the buff as well lol

who are u trolling man

You're so cringe. You claim to know how formulas work and proceed to say wrong things, then you double down on the dumb argument that ignores the details that make them different enough to ave different use cases. Then you call HIM the troll. Gross.

Edited February 24 by Redrigoth

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Hypertion said:

however i will reconize that Mirages damage boost vastly outpaces other similar boosts... Rhino having up to 160% or so is the closest and his kit is overall not as impressive and Roar itself doesnt also have a Damage reduction option to it. so i dont know if i cannot say its too good... 

Subsumed Roar is not too far off from being better than Eclipse - Eclipse is still better overall, but Roars' special quirk means Subsumed it's still pretty significant.
and the same goes for the native Abilities on each Warframe - Eclipse is kinda better overall, but not by a huge amount since any DoT Damage will be much higher from Roar.

[DeathOfASaint]

3 hours ago, Redrigoth said:

You're so cringe. You claim to know how formulas work and proceed to say wrong things, then you double down on the dumb argument that ignores the details that make them different. Then you call HIM the troll. Gross.

my bad warframe god, how exactly do roar and eclipse differ outside of status procs and abilities scaling better with roar
please bestow your knowledge upon us mortals

no response because roar and eclipse are literally the same multiplier outside of some other use cases, everyone knows this, no point in lying or shifting goal posts, also never called the other guy a troll just his arguments trolling but i get insulted thrice, super mature 

wah wah wah why isn't DE giving me a 5x roar multiplier for free

Edited February 24 by DeathOfASaint

[Redrigoth]

30 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Subsumed Roar is not too far off from being better than Eclipse - Eclipse is still better overall, but Roars' special quirk means Subsumed it's still pretty significant.
and the same goes for the native Abilities on each Warframe - Eclipse is kinda better overall, but not by a huge amount since any DoT Damage will be much higher from Roar.

roar works on all damage including ability damage, is a faction multiplier so works with interactions that operate on faction multipliers, it also buffs teammates, it has quadratic scaling on status procs, it is consistent, but it costs more energy.

Eclipse is only a weapon buff, it is inconsistent, it has its own niche interactions, it is good energy economy, it has some defensive aspect. Neither is much better than the other. They are each good for different use cases. After the change it would be a toggle between defensive or offensive, a bit less stronger than roar but more versatile, which still gives it its own use cases where it is the better choice.

It's not as simple as this one higher number.

[floppydonkeyni]

Having eclipse be a damage multiplier should be preserved. It is a very strong ability but it alone does not make a build, you still need all the base elements of mods in your weapon and warframe. Having it be a reliable damage multiplier would not change any gameplay for the worse, things would just die a little quicker, it could also allow for more flexible modding if it enabled players to hit damage breakpoints for killing enemies a bit easier, and maybe with a bit more variety of weapons. Nuking everything in the game is already done without eclipse. 

Having eclipse being changed to only give base damage would also be a big blow to Eidolon and Profit Taker speed runs. It is a BIG deal. These are areas of the game that have YEARS of development, and especially in the solo category, it almost completely denies the damage necessary to achieve similar times. Having abilities that give more damage than others is not a bad thing, especially since that's all the ability did in this context, a flat multiplier for weapons damage. 

And to address Pablo's comment about it being capped at 350 for helminth, if that's so then there would be almost no reason to use that ability as a damage buff, since as others have said, a simple arcane does more than that. It would be completely outclassed by so many other abilities. It would take the ability as a damage buff, from A/S tier down to C tier at best. I'm hoping that he just misspoke. 

Please reconsider your decision. Thank you.

[Redrigoth]

Making it additive damage is so garbage. It creates an inverse relationship between ability strength and damage mods. If I did my math right, 130% multiplicative vs 230% additive makes it so at 200% strength additive starts becoming worse at around 250% damage. With 300% strength, additive starts becoming worse at about 130% weapon damage. At some point it results in mirage's damage output being halved.

And no, it isn't just "damage buffs". Each one works differently and is optimal for different builds. They each have different multiplicative logic and interactions with different mechanics.

I don't know why they cant just make it 150% multiplicative for mirage and 100% for helminth instead of 230% additive for mirage and 150% for helminth? What even is this? A squishier version of Chroma? Chroma is what you play when you want additive damage + tankiness. Mirage is what you play when you want to alternate between glass cannon and stone wall.

"YO! Let's take an otherwise good change and ruin it by making it additive!"

Edited February 24 by Redrigoth

[StArtifact]

Thanks for taking the time of making a graph for ilustrate the argument, still people is literally missunderstanding so many things.

The point of making the skill toogle was not only because it was horrible and missleading, also with the new light we couldnt activate the effect on the Anatomica, it was for Mirage to be actually usefull with her playstile besides nuke sanctuary.

For those that thinks its the same as X warframes, you need to remember something very important, tose warframes has some other tools on their kits that syngerizes with them and having better stats (Like having quite a lot of armor, overguard, high base health, armor strip, etc). Mirage is a Glass Cannon with only synergy on 2 skills... SO, if you remove the strong part of the frame (yeah the clones NEEDs the eclipse) its a worse mistake than the Chroma case.

Now, if the argument is because the Helminth, the line of thinking is: "yeah who cares about mirage, the skill we can get its the important part, she can die on the corner".

ITs not a team buff (Because the augment is on when youre literally hughing your teamates... like please think that more), Its the core of the always used build for content outside sanctuary.

[trst]

35 minutes ago, Redrigoth said:

Making it additive damage is so garbage. It creates an inverse relationship between ability strength and damage mods. If I did my math right, 130% multiplicative vs 230% additive makes it so at 200% strength additive starts becoming worse at around 250% damage. With 300% strength, additive starts becoming worse at about 130% weapon damage. At some point it results in mirage's damage output being halved.

And no, it isn't just "damage buffs". Each one works differently and is optimal for different builds. They each have different multiplicative logic and interactions with different mechanics.

I don't know why they cant just make it 150% multiplicative for mirage and 100% for helminth instead of 230% additive for mirage and 150% for helminth? What even is this? A squishier version of Chroma? Chroma is what you play when you want additive damage + tankiness. Mirage is what you play when you want to alternate between glass cannon and stone wall.

"YO! Let's take an otherwise good change and ruin it by making it additive!"

That's neat and all but Mirage didn't need the damage due to how overpowered weapons are and she still has Hall of Mirrors. And getting a guaranteed 90% DR buff on her at all times makes it a strict buff for the frame. There's no reason to choose between the two effects when she always has one of them regardless of the state of Eclipse.

Plus it's still a buff via Helminth as there's no other reliable DR ability through it aside from some armor buffs. Meanwhile weapons are still overpowered and there's still other damage buffs via Helminth.

[Her_Lovely_Tentacles]

Eclipse was such an interesting concept; it is sad to see it go to a boring tap/hold ability.

I would have much preferred the more interesting gameplay offered by the proposed pillars of light spawned by the ability.
It would have enriched her, given her something to actually play around and fit the theme.

Mirage is very near and dear to my heart, and it hurts to see an ability of hers turned even more into a boring egg timer.

[Rawbeard]

I can imagine the coding causing issues, so it makes sense to streamline it. but it is a bit of a loss.

[Darlf]

yee it not alywas work well but is a unique ability that they are changing to make it a bit easier to use, because Mirage is no longer easy, it doesn't blow up everything, it shoots a laser ball everywhere, etc... it's just some stupid idea taken from players who only want to grind afk and not play

Rawbeard i think they do light and shadow anyway in maps and mirage have arledy desing skill so i think it not problem and problem is players who just cant pick other frame from 56!!!

[Lord_Drod]

I am not a fan of this change either.  DR is something I never want, but I would not lobby for a serration buff to get rid of it.  There should have been a better option than this.  I don't agree with simplifying her unique ability to match another frame's ability that we already have. 

Roar costs more, is slower to cast, can't be recast without an augment, also uses up your helminth slot, and if only using her with weapons you can put roar on your weapons already.  So it's more valuable to trap and crystal ball builds.  I made a build for Sanctum knowing she wasn't receiving the eclipse buff and I still prefer it anyway and don't notice much difference when I'm already using faction mods.

On the other hand, if I am not really getting the buff often, then I guess a permanent serration is better.  Seeing how so many frames are OP, I don't really see why an adjustment for either was needed other than the fact that it would be abused in helminth I guess?  Solution, adjust just the helminth values, like most other OP abilities.

[Marquis_Butts_Esquire_IV]

We understand that making it a toggle was a large buff the consistency is what we always wanted as shown by the overwhelming amount of comments on the post about the toggle tap post as made by DE after previous dev stream.

Changing the damage formula to additive damage is a really extreme change it should be a nerf but stay multiplicative the last time this happened chroma went from what people would consider THE damage dealer frame to a niche money maker in profit taker (side note chroma rework soon tm) We understand its very powerful and we all understand it needs to be nerfed to compensate the consistency buff please change it back to multiplicative and nerf the numbers down to be similar to roar please and thank you!!! 

[MegaloStrikeBack]

Mirage does have other builds, but she was the best at just making weapons very strong damage-wise because of the multiplicative weapon-only buff, not useability or satisfaction-wise since arguably other Warframes can do that better (like Harrow or Gauss, especially since Roar exists). That was what she did best for the tradeoff of being squishy and not doing anything else well because of how much focus on strength you need to maximise her as a weapon platform. I can't speak for everyone, but I use Mirage when I want to maximize the damage of my weapons and only for that, which I think is the purpose devs had in mind when designing her. So it makes no sense to me that they would nerf this aspect of her kit or at least this hard by making it an additive buff, which is a mathematically weaker damage buff.

She may not fully die since she is kinda of popular as an ESO nuker, but this nerf is just pushing her into a build that is IMO very boring and non-interactive and nerfing the heck out of a Warframe whose main identity is already taking a hit design-wise from having a core-mechanic removed (as unreliable as the light/shadow mechanic was, it's a part of her character that unfortunately has to be sacrificed for usability's sake), and aggravating this even more by nerfing her damage buff, pushing her into an arguably unhealthy nuke playstyle, that is essentially just standing around while everything dies. She will still buff weapon damage, but for people who want a weapon-focused playstyle why not just pick up a Warframe like Harrow, Xaku or anything else and slap Roar on it, which is a universal, multiplicative and team-wide buff while still maintaining all the upsides of their kits plus better speed/reload speed, utility, survivability, etc.

If the reason for the nerf is Helminth, change her subsume ability, nerf the DR/DB values or even remove the ability to choose between DR and damage buff altogether and make it so the Helminth version can only ever do one of those, etc. Just please don't hurt a fun Warframe that was not overperforming in any way because of Helminth.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I don't necessarily disagree, but presumably you have seen the official feedback mega thread right? This thread could also be framed as "Don't listen to the overwhelming majority of feedback, or other people, or other players, I personally find it boring, listen to my preference instead", and to be clear, I am not saying OP is saying that, but essentially... Ignoring that level and amount of player feedback after requested it, would be... pretty brazen of them. 

Personally and for transparency sake, if that matters to anyone, I don't really play a lot of Mirage, and when I do, I enjoy her, but I am not super serious about her kit. So I don't feel strongly either way. Is the change a bit boring to me? Maybe, but one persons boring, is another persons good reliable consistency. Are there other alternative suggestions, I think are more interesting? Yeah, but as far as I can tell, they really aren't that popular at all. Relatively speaking. 

(Edited to give context. My post originally addressed an OP, whose thread was merged. It addresses a different idea to current OP). 

Edited February 24 by (PSN)slightconfuzzled
Adding clarity since thread was merged

[Her_Lovely_Tentacles]

35 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but presumably you have seen the official feedback mega thread right? This thread could also be framed as "Don't listen to the overwhelming majority of feedback, or other people, or other players, I personally find it boring, listen to my preference instead", and to be clear, I am not saying OP is saying that, but essentially... Ignoring that level and amount of player feedback after requested it, would be... pretty brazen of them. 

Personally and for transparency sake, if that matters to anyone, I don't really play a lot of Mirage, and when I do, I enjoy her, but I am not super serious about her kit. So I don't feel strongly either way. Is the change a bit boring to me? Maybe, but one persons boring, is another persons good reliable consistency. Are there other alternative suggestions, I think are more interesting? Yeah, but as far as I can tell, they really aren't that popular at all. Relatively speaking. 

"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

I just don't think we should let them.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

12 minutes ago, Her_Lovely_Tentacles said:

"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

I just don't think we should let them.

 

Sure, but thats a bit of a loaded phrase/quote, with its own context and implications, that has been discussed to death in various video game forums, Youtube comment sections, over and over. How accurate, valid, the caveats, disclaimers, the accompanying baggage that can come with it, depending on its application, usage, framing and so on, can and will differ. Now myself, I enjoy those sorts of broad conversations, and would be willing to have them with anyone... 

That all being said, I don't think its that applicable here. Do you think if Soren Johnson was here, looking at this specific situation with feedback around Mirage's Eclipse, he would say "Nah, just ignore all that player feedback you asked for, because... given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." Or is it a more broad generalised idea with variables and context?

Like, we have a specific situation here, we don't really need to interject broader ideas. Its also totally fine if you really actually do personally think that DE should ignore the overwhelming feedback in that thread and just go with what you think is better. Is that what you think? I personally thought that the old Archon Hunt damage attenuation was fine. I know I was a minority. I also don't mind the changes either, but hey. 

[Ordo_Machina]

I do not run eclipse on any other frame other than mirage, partly because I mostly play mirage. These nerfs have me rather annoyed. Mirage players have to suffer because DE's mistakes. Firstly if they don't want eclipse to be so strong on other frames, why give eclipse as a helminth ability in the first place? Secondly if they cannot make the ability work with their lightning system, and are blind to the obvious solution players want, why do the players suffer when it's DE who can't make something work. Now whole eclipse has been relegated to being a mod, not an ability. Just make it so mirage herself gets the toggle QOL, and the ability's math stays the same with her, while the helminth gets the new math. It is just utter bs that a frame most commonly used as a nuke frame has to be nerfed because of helminth. (Sorry for the rant.)

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Multiplicative damage led to some funky broken business with Exodia Contagion. I'm glad this much will be over.

People who worry so much about having less multipliers and thus less damage so scaling content becomes harder seem to forget you can oneshot most enemies in this game if they have no armor and no shields.

Base modded damage is enough for your daily steel path business which is already most of what you're going to do in the "endgame" (understand : anything somewhat "difficult"), as endless runs are pretty much irrelevant (both from a reward standpoint and from a balance perspective), not to mention we have access to alot of tools to strip shields and armor, or outright bypassing them both.

Il y a 1 heure, MegaloStrikeBack a dit :

If the reason for the nerf is Helminth

It's not and you would know this much if you watched a couple devstreams. Eclipse is getting reworked because it relies on geometry lighting engine, which has been reworked several times and makes Eclipse just not work properly in newer tilesets. It's getting the Vex Armor treatment damage wise for the same reason that Vex Armor was changed, it doesn't have anything to do specifically with the Helminth.

 

Having the ability changed from multiplicative to standard modded damage is a small price to pay for it being reliable.