The moving of archon shards from Chipper to some where else, feels out of character.

[Aerikx]

6 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Tbf it made no sense for him to have them anyways.

IN FACT, I’d rather them have just added shards to the vendor without taking it away from Chipper. More normal shards couldn’t hurt. 

Well, the whole break Narmer theme kind of means that they are carrying on the war with the remnants of Narmer. 

This would put them into direct conflict with Archons/Archon Forces. And Pazuul's forces have to have stockpiles somewhere. Lore wise the Archons did die in The New War, so these new Archons are somehow being produced. 

7 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Let me take my high dose of copium por favor

Lmao. I absolutely hate the mission too. I don't care what DE claims. They programmed Chipper to be as suicidal as humanly possible. No matter what frame I am, he finds a way to eat every shot fired at him.

If you Banish him, he just so HAPPENS to roll out of it.

Snowglobe? You can be between waves. But the moment you drop one he runs out of it. 

Gara is the only frame that can subdue the bastard. Trust me, I'd gladly hand Chipper over to Nef Anyo or lock him into one of those Solaris Prisoner cells in the Deadlock Ships myself if I could. 

"Sorry Kahl. We lost Chipper. No. No need to look for him."

[DTRaptor]

The concern I have though is that while running Kahl missions is not the most fun, 15-20 minutes of my time for an archon shard isn't too bad of a deal. I just hope that whatever new method of acquisition for the shard won't require noticeably more of my time grinding than before.

[Aevire]

On 2024-02-24 at 8:20 AM, alexander3449 said:

The moving of archon shards from Chipper to some where else, feels out of character, atleast for this "version" of DE. and it also feels like an additional push, to have all the thing players want, isolated in one place.

the reason i say this is out of character, is that this "version" of DE, has had a streak of going back to things and fixing them or brining them up to date, the incarnon genesis adapters, the Kahl QOL updates, the Hydroid rework, even now with the changes to fortuna.

I like that they aren't putting a ton of dev time into fixing Kahl. He's a content island. It's like K-drives. It shouldn't be mandatory because the gameplay isn't like normal Warframe so it's always going to be divisive. I like the idea of Quills and Vox Solaris offering lenses.

On 2024-02-24 at 2:16 PM, Xzorn said:

From a story perspective it's bad since it removes Narmer as a looming threat in the game.

I agree. I think Narmer should have actual nodes and missions and not just bounties. That said Kahl sucked and they seem to be moving away from Narmer in general, maybe only for now, so I hope they wait to revisit Narmer until they have an actual idea of what to do with it. I'm personally glad that they are moving away from that style of cinematic quest where you have to play as a random guy without any of your stuff or gameplay experience and expertise and do not look forward to 1999 being a re-hash, unless Arthur is going to have all of the movement a Warframe normally has. Hopefully 1999 isn't Veilbreaker 2 and gives us some fun replayable content like Cascade or (hopefully) Deep Archimedea.

[0_The_F00l]

I do partially agree that it sets a bad precedence.

If DE just decides to move rewards around they can choose whichever island they want players to be in for that time just to get those rewards.

If they did this methodically , like a travelling vendor trading resources of that region for some in demand item. It would be sensible. You are now incentivised to farm in that location while that vendor exists there , and then move on.

But simply moving the most wanted (currently) items to their current content island... Feels a little bit disappointing.

Then again , DE hasn't exactly been known to make older content better and always pushes for whatever they hammered out recently .

I enjoyed the kahl missions in the beginning , but their novelty wore off gradually , I don't bother with them just as I don't bother with netracells and I will probably not bother with whatever new thing they come up with in deep archimedia or whatever it's called if the actual gameplay is just a slog.

[Hexerin]

5 hours ago, DTRaptor said:

The concern I have though is that while running Kahl missions is not the most fun, 15-20 minutes of my time for an archon shard isn't too bad of a deal. I just hope that whatever new method of acquisition for the shard won't require noticeably more of my time grinding than before.

It's already been confirmed that it's moving to Cavia, and will cost simple standing. I'd assume probably like 50-60k or something.

[Ruddertail]

All I can really say is I hope they don't bind them to Netracells in any way, if there's one mission type more tedious than Kahl it's that one.

Cavia rep sucks a lot to farm too, and is much slower than 1x Kahl per week.

Edited February 27 by Ruddertail

[_Anise_]

On 2024-02-25 at 8:22 PM, NaoQalli said:

I do hope they still add an evergreen optional reward though

 it has evergreen, you can farm the archron mods to sell, they sell pretty well too

[Aerikx]

14 hours ago, DTRaptor said:

The concern I have though is that while running Kahl missions is not the most fun, 15-20 minutes of my time for an archon shard isn't too bad of a deal. I just hope that whatever new method of acquisition for the shard won't require noticeably more of my time grinding than before.

I have a BAD feeling it'll be a Rank 5 Required reward and require weekly Kavia standing grinding. 

Which IMPO is significantly worse than running 1 Kahl mission every week.

And it'll probably cost: 

9 hours ago, Hexerin said:

I'd assume probably like 50-60k or something.

^^^ The most logical cost estimate given DE's history in pricing items.

*Violently shudders with PTSD over the price of launch month Ostron Standing prices, and Gyro/Atmo/Repeller systems*

Now...

And hear me out...

For the sake of discussion let's say it is 50 or 60kIf this was a Guaranteed Tau Forged Shard. I would be ok with it. But 50 or 60k standing for a Normal shard is... ridiculous IMPO. Like Kahl or not, if the shard is 50k or more then the grind for a normal shard has more than quadrupled.

1 Kahl Mission is on average 15-30 mins depending on the challenges. 1 Cavia bounty solo is about 10-20 mins tops out at 5k standing. If you hunt down every Voca then you're looking at 25mins easy. (Given you are avoiding the never ending hordes of Murmur.) 

Mirror Defense & Survival are the only "short" Cavia missions. With Mirror Defense being the winner as there are no Voca in it. Survival offers the option of hunting Voca and Whispers. 

So yeah, this sets a bad precedent.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

This is an awesome change and long overdue. I've been on break from Warframe a while and plan on coming back when this goes live!

[Hexerin]

5 hours ago, Ruddertail said:

All I can really say is I hope they don't bind them to Netracells in any way, if there's one mission type more tedious than Kahl it's that one.

Cavia rep sucks a lot to farm too, and is much slower than 1x Kahl per week.

58 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

I have a BAD feeling it'll be a Rank 5 Required reward and require weekly Kavia standing grinding. 

Which IMPO is significantly worse than running 1 Kahl mission every week.

And it'll probably cost: 

^^^ The most logical cost estimate given DE's history in pricing items.

*Violently shudders with PTSD over the price of launch month Ostron Standing prices, and Gyro/Atmo/Repeller systems*

Now...

And hear me out...

For the sake of discussion let's say it is 50 or 60kIf this was a Guaranteed Tau Forged Shard. I would be ok with it. But 50 or 60k standing for a Normal shard is... ridiculous IMPO. Like Kahl or not, if the shard is 50k or more then the grind for a normal shard has more than quadrupled.

1 Kahl Mission is on average 15-30 mins depending on the challenges. 1 Cavia bounty solo is about 10-20 mins tops out at 5k standing. If you hunt down every Voca then you're looking at 25mins easy. (Given you are avoiding the never ending hordes of Murmur.) 

Mirror Defense & Survival are the only "short" Cavia missions. With Mirror Defense being the winner as there are no Voca in it. Survival offers the option of hunting Voca and Whispers. 

So yeah, this sets a bad precedent.

It might be slower than a Kahl run each week, but it's a lot more fun playing actual Warframe. I'll take that trade-off, and I'm sure most other players will too.

[Aruquae]

8 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

It might be slower than a Kahl run each week, but it's a lot more fun playing actual Warframe. I'll take that trade-off, and I'm sure most other players will too.

I second this, actual Warframe is more interesting than Kahl imo. 
Also are you referring to the new Netracell missions? I thought they said they would become available at Rank 5. (I’m referring to the one with the bonuses/weekly)

If so, then the weekly ones do require Rank 5

Edited February 27 by Aruquae

[Hexerin]

20 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

I second this, actual Warframe is more interesting than Kahl imo. 
Also are you referring to the new Netracell missions? I thought they said they would become available at Rank 5. (I’m referring to the one with the bonuses/weekly)

If so, then the weekly ones do require Rank 5

The shard we're talking about is the one being moved off Chipper and into Cavia. It won't come from Netracells/Archimedea.

Refer to this quote of a response I made to another user for context as to what DE has confirmed about it:

10 hours ago, Hexerin said:

It's already been confirmed that it's moving to Cavia, and will cost simple standing. I'd assume probably like 50-60k or something.

 

[Aerikx]

14 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

It might be slower than a Kahl run each week, but it's a lot more fun playing actual Warframe. I'll take that trade-off, and I'm sure most other players will too.

This is a personal taste thing impo. 

I'm more concerned about how this effects folks who are transitioning into "High End" content. 

As Kahl was a good source of shards for those unable to clear Archon Hunts. 

Those same players may find the Cavia grind to be rather intense. 

Until recently (I've got about 8 maybe 10 soon new players under my tutelage) I had forgotten that what I find sleep inducing easy is actually rather difficult for a significantly larger portion of the playerbase than many of us care to admit. 

That said...

Kahl's issues are all on DE. 

As DE blatantly ignored feedback (and gameplay suggestions) on Kahl, and created a very crappy gameplay loop for Kahl. 

Kahl felt very unWarframe. When it needed to emulate more of a Drifter Gameplay.

IE: Warframe missions but with a steeper challenge because you are not a Warframe.

They just needed to give normal Warframe missions but with controlled spawns and a twist (ordering units to defend, etc) but instead we got Kahl of Puzzles: Electric Boogaloo. 

It's like, what made Kahl fun in The New War got forgotten. 

I personally, would prefer to run a quick Kahl mission for a Normal Shard than multiple Cavia missions into the foreseeable future for a Normal Shard. 

Normal Shards already feel like a 'meh' prize from Netracells (which are significantly more effort than a Kahl mission) seeing as I can't pick the color. 

[Hexerin]

4 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Until recently (I've got about 8 maybe 10 soon new players under my tutelage) I had forgotten that what I find sleep inducing easy is actually rather difficult for a significantly larger portion of the playerbase than many of us care to admit. 

One of my friend group is an eternal "new" player (high MR, but super casual player). Playing with them is always a reminder to how things are for newer or less experienced players. Keeps me from losing sight of the other end of the spectrum.

4 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Kahl felt very unWarframe. When it needed to emulate more of a Drifter Gameplay.

I definitely see no reason that would make a difference for people like myself. Nope, not at all:

Spoiler

 

[Aruquae]

21 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

The shard we're talking about is the one being moved off Chipper and into Cavia. It won't come from Netracells/Archimedea.

Refer to this quote of a response I made to another user for context as to what DE has confirmed about it:

 

Ahhh got it. Thanks for the clarification 

[Ylluria]

As one of those super casual 'forever newbie' players, I personally do not want the shards removed. I do not engage in endgame content, hard modes or other similar activities. Never done arbitrations, steel path, archon hunts and just finally about a month ago was able to feel like I could safely clear over lvl 60 content - IE Zariman or Sanctum missions, without Ivara cheese, Rhino or some other tanky warframe. Players who just like to relax and play warframe probably don't like the Kahl mission grind, but it was nice to have it there when you felt like it, earning shards that you cannot get any other way over a long period of time. At least we were able to engage in the system a little bit. I only just grabbed my second shard and still have not farmed enough stock for the other rewards. Granted I can now run the Cavia bounties for rep but not only is that as some others have mentioned, longer and potentially more tedious than Kahl due to Voca, but not everyone may be ready to farm it. Lower MR players who just made it through TNW/Veilbreaker can at least run Kahl missions with no gear requirements.

[Raikh]

10 hours ago, Aerikx said:

Mirror Defense & Survival are the only "short" Cavia missions. With Mirror Defense being the winner as there are no Voca in it. Survival offers the option of hunting Voca and Whispers. 

Exterminate is right there. Can often be done in 2-3 minutes and can still be kept under 5 with the worse/more time consuming extra tasks. Alchemy can also be done in under 5 minutes. So I'm not seeing how Mirror Defense and Survival are the short ones.

But more than the time concerns I'm wondering how much of our weekly Cavia Standing this will take up, since Melee Arcane Adapters cost 50k Standing and are already a fairly slow acquisition compared to Primary and Secondary Arcane Adapters which only cost 15 Steel Essences.

 

[Aerikx]

1 hour ago, Raikh said:

Exterminate is right there. Can often be done in 2-3 minutes and can still be kept under 5 with the worse/more time consuming extra tasks.

You rolling solo or in a squad? Also, are you hunting Voca? 

Also I'm talking in casual normal player. Not experienced over geared veteran. 

I've NEVER had an alchemy go less than 5 mins. The elements I need just refuse to drop. I got a screen cap somewhere of a floor littered with fire and electric (so much that my PS5's eyebrow twitched for 1 millisecond) while my crucible asked for Ice and Toxin. 🥲 

Extermination really depends on map and some luck. I had one take me about 4 mins. Another took 10 because the large rooms spread the spawns out so much & travel time was a chore. 

Mirror Defense is always 6mins & survival is always 5mins if you do the bare minimum.

The rest all have variables is what I meant. And as the bounties shift. The fast ones may not be the 5k standing one. Heaven forbid you get alchemy as a 5k bounty and the elements tell you to: "GG, farm harder scrub." (Like they did to me.) 

Admittedly in hindsight it's kind of funny now.

[Raikh]

28 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

You rolling solo or in a squad? Also, are you hunting Voca? 

We're usually 2 doing the Bounties for Daily Standing. We farmed the Vocas for a while but by now we take at best whats on the way. They are not very enticing for standing and not used much otherwise so we just keep our little stockpile for a bad day.

31 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Also I'm talking in casual normal player. Not experienced over geared veteran. 

Most definitely overgeared but I'm not a practiced mission speedrunner by any means. Gear progression ofc makes a monumental difference here, but I don't think its too difficult to get 1-2 setups that can just blitz a Cavia Exterminate. Doesn't even necessarily some crazy nuking setup. Just a single good weapon can do that by itself. Good part of it is also map navigation which comes with experience.

These missions can take longer than 5min but they are generally not what I'd call long missions.

 

39 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

The rest all have variables is what I meant. And as the bounties shift. The fast ones may not be the 5k standing one. Heaven forbid you get alchemy as a 5k bounty and the elements tell you to: "GG, farm harder scrub." (Like they did to me.) 

Having bad Bounties on 4 and 5 can definitely make it annoying. I usually have the leniency to just do it later when its not what I'm hoping for immediately or I occasionally hand in Vocas to skip a day here and there. ofc depending the personal schedule that might not be possible and I agree that its not very exciting to do the Bounties on the longer end a number of times.

[KiteForest_2035]

On 2024-02-28 at 12:55 AM, Hexerin said:

It might be slower than a Kahl run each week, but it's a lot more fun playing actual Warframe. I'll take that trade-off, and I'm sure most other players will too.

Quite the opposite, this behavior is like not allowing me to have today's lunch and instead dividing it into several portions that would take me a week to finish. Most people wouldn't be happy about such a thing. Therefore, true Warframe players prefer Kuva rather than Bounties. Those 'ordinary' missions have been completed thousands of times, and players get bored, especially when strange conditions are added, like having to spray acid canisters on enemies in the scene. Moreover, the rewards from Cetus are a mess. It's clear that they are not focused on the players' gaming experience. Instead, they found that players stopped visiting Cetus after reaching Rank 5, so they replaced a perennial reward with something else.

[Hexerin]

13 minutes ago, KiteForest_2035 said:

Quite the opposite, this behavior is like not allowing me to have today's lunch and instead dividing it into several portions that would take me a week to finish. Most people wouldn't be happy about such a thing. Therefore, true Warframe players prefer Kuva rather than Bounties. Those 'ordinary' missions have been completed thousands of times, and players get bored, especially when strange conditions are added, like having to spray acid canisters on enemies in the scene. Moreover, the rewards from Cetus are a mess. It's clear that they are not focused on the players' gaming experience. Instead, they found that players stopped visiting Cetus after reaching Rank 5, so they replaced a perennial reward with something else.

Except they're not being added to Cetus. They're being added to Cavia, which is the current content. No idea where you're getting this bizarre "taking today's lunch and dividing it" nonsense from, getting the shard from Cavia is going to be just as easy as any other weekly reward from a syndicate. If you can't be bothered to play the game, then you don't get the reward, simple as.

Additionally, your argument of "been run thousands of times" also applies to Kahl's missions and much more so, as they are extremely dull and boring past the initial run or two. Kahl's missions have zero variance, you do the exact same things in the exact same way every single time. Normal missions have some variance due to the randomized tiles, enemy force composition, etc.

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Normal missions have some variance due to the randomized tiles, enemy force composition, etc.

Most importantly, normal missions also feature variation from our arsenals… if we so choose. 
 

Kahl ignores all that.  It’s no wonder he got stale so fast. 

[KiteForest_2035]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Additionally, your argument of "been run thousands of times" also applies to Kahl's missions and much more so, as they are extremely dull and boring past the initial run or two. Kahl's missions have zero variance, you do the exact same things in the exact same way every single time. Normal missions have some variance due to the randomized tiles, enemy force composition, etc.

It's precisely because they're equally mundane that players prefer shorter time commitments. Many initially have a stereotype about the Khal mission, but after multiple optimizations, it's actually the most comfortable weekly task. As for why I mentioned dividing it into several parts, it's because the maximum amount of Kavia points you can earn daily is only 33,000 (even less for lower-ranked players). If the shard's price exceeds this number (which is almost inevitable), you'll have to divide what could have been obtained in a single day into multiple days to complete it.

[Hexerin]

2 hours ago, KiteForest_2035 said:

It's precisely because they're equally mundane that players prefer shorter time commitments. Many initially have a stereotype about the Khal mission, but after multiple optimizations, it's actually the most comfortable weekly task. As for why I mentioned dividing it into several parts, it's because the maximum amount of Kavia points you can earn daily is only 33,000 (even less for lower-ranked players). If the shard's price exceeds this number (which is almost inevitable), you'll have to divide what could have been obtained in a single day into multiple days to complete it.

I raised Cavia from nothing to rank 5 pretty much entirely via tokens I picked up in my weekly Netracells runs. Sounds like you need to improve your own gameplay methodology if you're having trouble with standing gains.

[Aerikx]

20 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

I raised Cavia from nothing to rank 5 pretty much entirely via tokens I picked up in my weekly Netracells runs. Sounds like you need to improve your own gameplay methodology if you're having trouble with standing gains.

You are overlooking that you are probably a High MR or Legendary Rank player the extreme majority of the playerbase is not. 

So a Shard costing say 50k isn't just 2 days of maxing daily standing for us. For other players it can be a Week long affair possibly bi-weekly depending on their MR rank. 

Kahl however, was a one and done 15-20 min mission.

Once again assuming it's 50k or even 60k, I would have to farm for 2 days. 

As an L2 player, my daily cap in 32k. So if I were to have 0 standing I'd have to max standing for 2 days just for 1 normal (of all things) shard. Which...they are not worth that time investment. I'd rather be chilling in Duviri, farming some mods in Railjack, and more importantly, helping my friends progress and learn the game.