Revenant is too much of a crutch

[Smeryl]

There are many frames that do not provide support for the team. Just wait until all the Inaros players show up with the next patch. Against Inaros, Revenant is a support monster XD.

However, I would also like to see a nerf for Revenant's Mesmer Skin. This ability is just OP and no comparison to other frames that require skill to avoid dying all the time.

Edited March 14 by Smeryl

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

26 minutes ago, Smeryl said:

There are many frames that do not provide support for the team. Just wait until all the Inaros players show up with the next patch. Against Inaros, Revenant is a support monster XD.

However, I would also like to see a nerf for Revenant's Mesmer Skin. This ability is just OP and no comparison to other frames that require skill to avoid dying all the time.

Spamming vaz dash or abusing shield gate isn't skill. The point is all avenues are/were welcome before bored people started thinking too much.

[Gepardosaurus]

Enthralled enemies should be better Visible, i have problems spotting them in the middle of all that chaos. That's the only point i agree with. 

[ECCHOSIERRA]

6 hours ago, Smeryl said:

There are many frames that do not provide support for the team. Just wait until all the Inaros players show up with the next patch. Against Inaros, Revenant is a support monster XD.

However, I would also like to see a nerf for Revenant's Mesmer Skin. This ability is just OP and no comparison to other frames that require skill to avoid dying all the time.

I wanna know how bad you have to be at the game, to be so dependent on having buffs from support frames that if someone dares to not carry you on their back you go on the forums and have a temper tantrum.

Yes buffs are nice but you shouldn't NEED them.

[Rawbeard]

31 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

I wanna know how bad you have to be at the game, to be so dependent on having buffs from support frames that if someone dares to not carry you on their back you go on the forums and have a temper tantrum.

that is the most interesting part, the people doing these "other players are not contributing! DE FIX!" threads seem to be those least in a position to complain. is Warframe really such a difficult game these days? am I out of touch? NO! it is the kids who are wrong!

[zThulsaDoomz]

14 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

I wanna know how bad you have to be at the game, to be so dependent on having buffs from support frames that if someone dares to not carry you on their back you go on the forums and have a temper tantrum.

Yes buffs are nice but you shouldn't NEED them.

 

13 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

that is the most interesting part, the people doing these "other players are not contributing! DE FIX!" threads seem to be those least in a position to complain. is Warframe really such a difficult game these days? am I out of touch? NO! it is the kids who are wrong!

I will always state that if you enter a random lobby, expect random results. 

The audacity of gamers never ceases to amuse

[CrownOfShadows]

15 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

that is the most interesting part, the people doing these "other players are not contributing! DE FIX!" threads seem to be those least in a position to complain. is Warframe really such a difficult game these days? am I out of touch? NO! it is the kids who are wrong!

It has absolutely nothing to do with the difficulty. You've completely misunderstood the problem.

[Smeryl]

vor 22 Stunden schrieb ECCHOSIERRA:

I wanna know how bad you have to be at the game, to be so dependent on having buffs from support frames that if someone dares to not carry you on their back you go on the forums and have a temper tantrum.

Yes buffs are nice but you shouldn't NEED them.

What makes you think I was bad or can only play with buffs? My post was about the TE who complained about frames that had no team benefit.
I'm L4 and play a wide variety of frames and certainly don't need any team buffs or OP frames to perform well. You need to read better XD

[RPColten]

Revenant players are an enigma for me.

I do not understand the thought process of choosing that character as a worthwhile option for Steel-Path Tyana Pass. Titania I understand, Revenant I do not.

It has coloured my bias of that Frame, and the players by association.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

41 minutes ago, Smeryl said:

What makes you think I was bad or can only play with buffs? My post was about the TE who complained about frames that had no team benefit.
I'm L4 and play a wide variety of frames and certainly don't need any team buffs or OP frames to perform well. You need to read better XD

The funny thing is you misunderstood my comment but then proceed to tell me i need to read better.

 

Im not accusing *you* or being bad at the game.

 

Im just wondering how bad someone has to be, to sit here act like buffs from teammates are mandatory.

Or like, they are being personally slighted in some way and oughta throw a whiny temper tantrum if they arent being buffed by teammates. *cough op*

Because, if you have even the slightest semblance of skill and or familiarity with how this game works, you shouldnt NEED buffs from teammates. For anything.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-03-15 at 6:03 AM, RPColten said:

Revenant players are an enigma for me.

I do not understand the thought process of choosing that character as a worthwhile option for Steel-Path Tyana Pass. Titania I understand, Revenant I do not.

It has coloured my bias of that Frame, and the players by association.

They live in an imaginary world where they think spreading their Mesmer Skin onto the rest of the group is somehow beneficial. While likely also under the assumption that it protects the defense target. When in reality it really only leads to screwing up some builds, while mostly not benefitting anyone because most players dont build with access to Mesmer in mind, so already have the needed things in their build to survive.

I mean Rev used to have his uses, and still does for undergeared players. He was and is still a great choice for rad sorties, since it removes all risks, both rad sickness and immunity to damage dealt by rad sick frames. He was and is still useful for lich/sister runs for the same reason, to remove the variable of radiation in a group. He can also help less geared players through things like Archons and Cells. Outside of that he is mostly pointless.

[PontiacJones]

If you nerf Rev, you'll have to nerf Nezha and Rhino, because people will just use those instead. You might also have to nerf Wukong because he can sort of circumvent death and also, possibly Inaros if this rework turns out well.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what other people play, with the possible exception of Limbo because he is actively interfering with other players. If you know what you're doing, you can carry the whole team everywhere, whether they contribute as you say, or not.

I don't play Rev, but I don't have any problems if that is what people are into.

 

[Lord_Drod]

This really isn't a Warframe problem.  It's a player problem and something only the OP has.  There's plenty of experienced players out there that are really good revenants.  Also, he's still in the drop table, otherwise Rhino would be just as popular, same as Inaros etc.  People use what they are comfortable with and what's accessible and easiest to use.  Sure, he might need some adjusting, just so DE can make their money from balance. 

However, the core issue of people not contributing will always be there, if that's your issue.  That's what pubs are.  Most people in them are playing them to be carried, not to form an all star squad with their equal.  That's what recruit is for.  Since there are no long missions in this game in pubs, then I don't see what you could be possibly complaining about.  The only mission where it's really an issue is maybe Earth Archon Defense, and that's more due to how spread out the spawns are.  That's a 10 wave mission, so it might take 18 mins , if the other 3 are just camped in the middle and really doing nothing (pretty rare and its not limited to Revenant players at all).

 As long as they aren't interfering with the mission, having 3 do nothing in Netracells is perfectly fine.  In Arbi, it's perfectly fine.  What's the mission where its an issue?  I'd easily and happily carry 3 revenants in eximus stronghold duviri defense with any random fodder I had on.  I'm sure if I was doing most of the damage, and I went down in a deep archimedea mission, it would be nice to have them around to revive me vs playing solo (if that was important to me).

Contribution is not a requirement as far as abilities or kills go and isn't always measurable.  Pubs are primarily just a social thing, whether or not you end up socializing, its purely a way to experience the game with others.  Looking back when arbi released, I was very inexperienced and not comfortable with a variety of frames there.  This was not uncommon.  The playlist was filled with inaros, and the like with people just hoping not to die.  Now, the game as changed, and so have I and it's easier going back, but there may be some people that are just starting out and need Revenant there.  It certainly isn't a problem for me and if it was I'd go into recruit.

Deleting Revenant from the game won't actually solve any of the problems OP is talking about, other than actually not seeing a Revenant in games anymore.  Most people start off on a cautious approach in Warframe.  They go armor, HP, adaptation, and change frames specifically for every mission type.  Then you realize later on, none of that is necessary - it was never necessary from the start, but its about experience and your comfort level and some frames are more catered to a certain level of experience.  Some people don't want to fail missions and really care about that, and especially if not dying is part of one of the mission objectives.

Forcing people to play another frame, even if its amazing does not lead to contribution.  Contribution isn't necessary for success.  There's no mission where I think afterwards, "whoa, that guy really helped a ton.  I am so glad he was stomping nourish every 5 seconds to help me through it."  It's just a nice social thing to run into others that enjoy doing the same thing you do, which is to play this great game and maybe talk with them.  Maybe that is their contribution. 

Workload is irrelevant.  I'm not working any harder with 3 revenants in my squad unless its circuit, and if it is, they are likely dropping out early if they aren't contributing.  Since circuit has RNG in the cave, pretty much every single pub match is a hard carry because nobody has a strong OP or likes using it.  Again, not a revenant issue.  But you can see with circuit, how basically everyone becomes "revenant" - the revenant that you see, when they aren't able to play what they want.  So if that was a problem, I would recruit or solo.  Arbi is the only significant mission that has increased spawns with squad size, and I'd happily accept 3 revenants there for 50-100 waves of defense no problem on any tile in the game.

The only missions I snap abort are any mission where people are waypointing me to one room.  I insta quit if 3 guys are in a closet because they aren't interested in playing the game and want you to conform to ridiculous parameters set forth in a pub and have no clue what they're doing or how to play.  So yeah, I always snap quit.  These people are worse than any revenant could ever be.  Again, not the frame, the player, but you know, there is nothing wrong with what they are doing, except they should use recruit.

Why not just make a thread about how Revenant could be adjusted instead of singling out inexperienced players, who will always be in pubs, in games like archon missions, netracells, arbi, archimedea because they can't carry or it is more beneficial to them to play in a squad and not because they aren't contributing.  Inexperienced players are what brings life to the game and keeps it going and everyone was inexperienced at some point.  The frame is completely irrelevant.

You have extremely high expectations for a pub match, especially a difficult one.  If it really is an issue carrying 3 revenants all the time in anything but a level cap defense, where its worth even creating this thread, your builds just aren't made to carry.  My point is Revenant doesn't slow the mission down more than any other inexperienced player does with any other frame.  Maybe if they had some 1337 playlist that you had to be invited to, based on some crazy requirements, then you'd only run into competent players, but I don't see how they would do that or that it would be healthy for the the game.

[Smeryl]

It's not about whether you need buffs to play or not, but rather what usefulness it can offer for special missions.

It reminds me of the days back when a lot of Inaros played, because this frame can't die even to Brain AFK. Some players then used this to join for Eidolon hunt or similar events. Every player with some experience wanted frames and auras to make the missions quick and efficient. Frames like this with Physique or Steel Charge in the aura are not very helpful.

Of course everyone can play whatever they want. I just find it boring to always see the same frame. If Revenant's survivability wasn't so excessive, players would also look at other frames.

I find Revenant and especially its augment for the Mesmer skin very helpful for the group. But, for example, the far too many stacks he has should not be more than 5, as the augment for allies allows. So Revenant would also be forced to maintain the buff for everyone at all times. I miss team buffing with most Revenants anyway.

[Binket_]

On 2024-03-15 at 6:27 PM, PontiacJones said:

If you nerf Rev, you'll have to nerf Nezha and Rhino, because people will just use those instead. You might also have to nerf Wukong because he can sort of circumvent death and also, possibly Inaros if this rework turns out well.

No, not really.

Nezha has more going for him than just Warding Halo.
Blazing Chakram adds Damage Vulnerability and pairs with his 4 (Divine Spears) to spread this effect further.
Divine Spears locks enemies into place and lets you spread Blazing Chakram.
If you teleport using his Blazing Chakram, Firewalker causes a small AoE effect at the teleport point.

While Rhino can be equally braindead, I'll equate that to people only using his Iron Skin.
If anything, I'd say most of his synergy is locked behind Augments-- which is the only problem there.
Slap those onto the base ability and you're solid. It's arguably a similar problem from Chroma.

Wukong is just obnoxious overall though.

Inaros we don't have yet, so we can't confirm that.

 

Like I mentioned before, the biggest problem with Revenant is that his Mesmer Skin makes everything else in his kit redundant.
There's always room for improvement, but there's nothing wrong with being strong exactly.
It's being braindead and unengaging that's the issue. It's why I have an issue with Gloom in the same manner.

Both Revenant and Gloom enforce this "boring, super duper safe playstyle" that stagnates into mundanity.
If I wanted to be bored, I would look out my window and watch the snow refuse to melt for hours on end.
I don't need a Video Game to feel boredom. That's supposed to be the opposite outcome.

If I want to relax, there are other games for that. Action and Shooter- contrary to popular belief- don't exactly fill that niche well.
Warframe is not designed to be snooze-cruise. This ain't Pokemon Sleep, it's a shooter with an emphasis on parkour.
Fast, reflexive, flashy-- the exact opposite of relaxing.

... yet here we are, trying to dumb down the game for the general audience.
I feel a certain Youtube comment I saw while watching a video put it best.

You can only lower the skill ceiling so much before it crushes everything beneath it.
Likewise, you can only raise the skill ceiling so much before it implodes upon itself.

There is a fine degree between "easy" and "redundant". We are in the latter.

 

36 minutes ago, Lord_Drod said:

You have extremely high expectations for a pub match, especially a difficult one.

I'll be blunt, I absolutely DESPISE how much "teamwork" in a Co-Op game is completely thrown away.

Call me old-fashioned, but the idea of MMOs (regardless of genre) was built upon the idea of "teamwork".
Everyone working towards some kinda goal. To do that, you needed roles with people to fill those roles.
In Warframe? Multiplayer is redundant. Arguably detrimental considering how people play the game.

The only missions that really encourage any form of a squad is Interception. THAT IS IT.
Even in that case, you can place down Specters and it'll have a similar outcome.
I sure do enjoy bringing 3 other human beings to act a glorified totems. Such humane outlooks!

I play public matches because I wanna have fun matching other people's kits.
I want a challenge that REQUIRES multiple people to cooperate and actually PLAN.
Asking a lot of people, yes. I'm well aware. Wasn't always the case once upon a time.

 

... but I feel this is only a small portion of the consequences involved with dumbing games down.
By making a game more and more impossible to fail, more and more players have this perverse expectation that things must get simpler.
Instead of learning from mistakes, they simply vow to make more.
Instead of expecting the new area to improve upon the last, they simply wish to ignore what it is faster.

It's why the phrase "If at first you don't succeed, try again" is a terrible piece of advice.
The real phrase before it was butchered was "If at first you don't succeed, find out why."
If you simply keep trying over and over, you won't get anywhere. You didn't account for the new introduced mechanics.
^{Seriously, the amount of times a game has explained themselves multiple times-- yet the player refuses to engage and only get more frustrated at a roadblock defies all logic.}

I've learned over many years, players- when given too much agency- WILL ALWAYS take the laziest path there, even if it hurts them.
A Developer can adhere to this notion of progression when it's productive. (I.E. Engaging and fair.)
Often times however, it's simply pandering. Pandering makes money however, so nobody will make a peep about it.
It's why honeyed words and false promises keep working. Dumb people don't look into it.

 

... after all, there was- once upon a time- a reason Nullifiers were invented.
We got a little too ahead of ourselves and needed a counter.
It's not a perfect one, but it was a necessary evil. Without an evil, where's the good?
^{Sadly, today's playerbase is about as bright as tar with all the reaction speed to match. If there was so much as a mild form of adversity, their first response is baseless prayers. How fickle humans are!}

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, Lord_Drod said:

Contribution is not a requirement

this is where you're wrong.

sure it will always be there, but when it starts becoming the meta that's when it become a problem.

I don't mind one scumbag leech now and then, even two on a blue moon, but when too many of my pub missions start being filled with Revenants who are doing nothing, yeah we have an issue bro

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, Lord_Drod said:

Why not just make a thread about how Revenant could be adjusted

Did you not even read the OP? I LITERALLY asked for exactly this. JC

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-03-15 at 10:27 PM, PontiacJones said:

with the possible exception of Limbo because he is actively interfering with other players.

So is Rev, or atleast most Rev players these days. Atleast with Limbo you can go outside of his zone, with Rev that player dictates which parts of your build works or not. Rev has gone from players crying "buhu others wont allow me to utilize my Rev kit!" to giving Rev the ability to instead lock players out of how they've built.

On practically any frame I play that uses Arcane Avenger or Grace I'd much rather have access to those things than spectral jizz on my shoulder since I dont need that extra survival while losing parts of my build. I shouldnt need to carry Combat Discipline 24/7 to enable my build if a wild Rev appears in a mission. Not that Combat Disc would be a sure fire way either, since if anyone else also brings it, the effect and sync between it and arcanes is disabled since you no longer take self damage from the aura.

edit: And not to mention if player rely on rage or adrenaline for energy sustain, which will effectively not work if you get a sharing-is-caring Rev in your group. I kinda wish we could get a toggle option to disable allied buffs of our choice. Or rework mesmer skin into a DR ability instead of an invulnerability.

Edited March 17 by SneakyErvin

[Binket_]

39 minutes ago, Smeryl said:

Of course everyone can play whatever they want. I just find it boring to always see the same frame.

17 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

sure it will always be there, but when it starts becoming the meta that's when it become a problem.

It's always why I tell them:
"Oh yeah, you can play anything want-- that's no an issue. You also bare the consequences involved with what you play, never forget that."

It's precisely why that- even while I play Volt- if another person finds my Shock Trooper augment, Speed, Electric Shield, etc, etc. disruptive?
I would have means and to work around it so that I don't get in their way.

People call that "an extraordinary task to uphold", I call it "basic courtesy".

It's appalling that I can't simply ask players to do basic inputs anymore.
... or try literally anything but the basic-bot gameplay.

[sunderthefirmament]

22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So is Rev, or atleast most Rev players these days. Atleast with Limbo you can go outside of his zone, with Rev that player dictates which parts of your build works or not. Rev has gone from players crying "buhu others wont allow me to utilize my Rev kit!" to giving Rev the ability to instead lock players out of how they've built.

On practically any frame I play that uses Arcane Avenger or Grace I'd much rather have access to those things than spectral jizz on my shoulder since I dont need that extra survival while losing parts of my build. I shouldnt need to carry Combat Discipline 24/7 to enable my build if a wild Rev appears in a mission. Not that Combat Disc would be a sure fire way either, since if anyone else also brings it, the effect and sync between it and arcanes is disabled since you no longer take self damage from the aura.

edit: And not to mention if player rely on rage or adrenaline for energy sustain, which will effectively not work if you get a sharing-is-caring Rev in your group. I kinda wish we could get a toggle option to disable allied buffs of our choice. Or rework mesmer skin into a DR ability instead of an invulnerability.

This is indicative of a larger problem than Revenant.  If DE is going to keep buffs and systems in the game that derive benefits from normally harmful things (taking damage, not getting a critical hit, etc.), then they should give us ways to make sure that other players can't prevent that.  I don't see this ever happening, but one possible solution would be mod variants that prevent those outside effects, like an alternate version of Rage/Hunter's Adrenaline that makes you immune to Overguard from outside sources and Mesmer Shield.  

 

Maybe it would be easier to make losing a stack of Mesmer Shield count as "health damage" for certain effects.  Same with Overguard.  I doubt it though.  I imagine that this is another example of convoluted systems begetting and influencing convoluted systems over the course of years of development.  Not to be pessimistic, but I don't see this ever getting addressed.  Like can you imagine how absurd of an options menu they'd have to add for buff toggles (something that I see requested fairly frequently here)?  The game is just too big and bloated at this point.  And even if they did implement something of the sort, I can't even fathom how bugged it would be, or what other problems it would lead to.

[MutoManiac]

I love how some people insult pretty much the entire player base and then proceed to tell us how respectful or courteous they are. 🙄

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

47 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

this is where you're wrong.

sure it will always be there, but when it starts becoming the meta that's when it become a problem.

I don't mind one scumbag leech now and then, even two on a blue moon, but when too many of my pub missions start being filled with Revenants who are doing nothing, yeah we have an issue bro

You need DEs data to even make an educated hypothesis. What you're doing is taking an anecdote and assuming that applies to 50,000 players. 

 

[Tiltskillet]

13 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I don't see this ever happening, but one possible solution would be mod variants that prevent those outside effects, like an alternate version of Rage/Hunter's Adrenaline that makes you immune to Overguard from outside sources and Mesmer Shield.  

Neat idea. 

If it's technically feasible, would there be any reason not to just add that to the current versions, as long as it's alluded to on the card? "Disables outside sources of Invulnerability, Shields, and Overguard".   If somebody is slotting HA/Rage, it seems like they probably want to benefit from them.

 

[Lord_Drod]

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Did you not even read the OP? I LITERALLY asked for exactly this. JC

Yea but after 5 pages you basically derailed any mention of that to the point where I had forgotten.  And like I said the core issue is still mostly about players playing "bad".  It just isn't a team game as far as needing other roles etc. 

That sounds cool, but just not really how they are designing gameplay.  It's actually less fun how they did the owl puzzles in duviri with squad sizing so maybe they just don't know how to do that properly.

My experience with pubs in those missions isn't 3 revenant very often.  I'm sure you're exaggerating some and could have to do with when you play.

I still don't think anything would change with him being deleted. 

Once he is vaulted I doubt he'll retain his availability over rhino, inaros, nezha etc after he's dropped from the tables for a while.

You could be right I guess if there are consistently revenants doing nothing in your missions, then probably some changes would be beneficial.  I'm not opposed to changes to his kit.  I haven't really noticed this myself.

I'm just used to pubs being filled with really inexperienced players that can barely play, especially at certain times.

I think on paper some core gameplay changes sound cool to allow for more collaboration, but probably better for a specific mission like a raid or something.  I don't know how that would work. 

Actual new missions that push this would be cool.  Gameplay modes right now are kind of lacking or have become stale.

Edited March 17 by Lord_Drod

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

This is indicative of a larger problem than Revenant.  If DE is going to keep buffs and systems in the game that derive benefits from normally harmful things (taking damage, not getting a critical hit, etc.), then they should give us ways to make sure that other players can't prevent that.  I don't see this ever happening, but one possible solution would be mod variants that prevent those outside effects, like an alternate version of Rage/Hunter's Adrenaline that makes you immune to Overguard from outside sources and Mesmer Shield.  

 

Maybe it would be easier to make losing a stack of Mesmer Shield count as "health damage" for certain effects.  Same with Overguard.  I doubt it though.  I imagine that this is another example of convoluted systems begetting and influencing convoluted systems over the course of years of development.  Not to be pessimistic, but I don't see this ever getting addressed.  Like can you imagine how absurd of an options menu they'd have to add for buff toggles (something that I see requested fairly frequently here)?  The game is just too big and bloated at this point.  And even if they did implement something of the sort, I can't even fathom how bugged it would be, or what other problems it would lead to.

Yep, and we can see the problem with pets aswell. Just slotted my Smeeta recently to increase Steel Essence gain together with the recent Baro obtained 2x loot booster, and it is a pita when charm procs the orage crit buff on my Kullervo, completely canceling out his wrathful buff that is several tiers higher in crit.

OG does currently count as losing health to trigger arcanes. Wish they could apply comething similar to Revs mesmer skin and Nyx assimilate. However I dont think it will happen. And yeah, adding toggles to disable friendly buffs on an individual case by case set up would be a mess.

The easiest thing they could probably do is change most of the things to "when hit" instead of damaged. Exceptions could be Grace, Barrier, Aegis since if you are immune you wont need them until you stop being immune. Adrenaline and Rage could account for the damage you were supposed to recieve before the damage got ignored by immunity buffs. Guardian and Avenger could work for any hit recieved, since they both interact with other parts of a build and not only personal survival, like Guardian increasing Globe strength and Avenger interacting with how you've built for damage dealing. Two things that shouldnt be impacted by the "beneficial" choices of a seperate player.