i feel like dante is too good ?

[crispb]

The solution is simple.  Stop making support frames and make the Overguard only apply to the individual frame.  This is a single player game, with the ability to run with others.

- nuking frames; people upset you are clearing the map
- afk frames; people upset you are afking but still doing damage, looting, etc.
- overguard/overshield/support frames; people upset you are giving them overshields, overguard, and preventing them from proccing on health damage, stopping shield-gates, etc.
- cc frames; people upset with cc frames, stunlocking enemies and making missions take longer

[CrownOfShadows]

5 hours ago, MrDugan said:

It's funny, because when people say things like this, it's because they believe they are in the right.  But not just correct, because I also think I'm correct.  But you think you're correct enough to be dismissive of someone else's perspective, and that you have the authority to tell them to just shut up about it.  But it's an opinion.  No more valid than mine.  Which means if I need to shut up, you do too.  Except this is the feedback forums, so neither of us need to stop talking, but I would appreciate if YOU would consider not being dismissive.  Argue the point, with something other than "it's what the devs want."  "it's the dev's game."  or using points you haven't backed up, like "it's good for the health of the game."  How?  There is virtually no PVP, and the speed of mission clear can be duplicated a dozen other ways.  There's nothing uniquely dominant about this frame, other than the fact that it's an actually reasonable farm, which means his use is wide-spread.

The thing I really don't like about the "DE doesn't want us to have fun" crowd is that it is so disingenuous and rude to DE. Of course they want you to have fun. AND they care about their game. You don't have to bash DE for taking corrective action that is sorely needed.

And this sentiment only seems to pop up when something is atrociously overpowered and being abused or there is a really bad exploit that people are taking advantage of, so it seems to primarily be a social engineering cudgel of the criminal.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

5 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

Everyone, not only Warframe players, become triggered by the word "nerf". It is like toddlers when you take away their most beloved toy.

Except these "toys" required to be either bought with platinum or dedicated a large time investment to farm and polarize. So it's understandable that people will get pissed off when DE nerfs them.

[crispb]

21 minutes ago, Corvid said:

When?

Because from what I've seen, every single time they've done even the slightest thing to rein in our power, DE have provided clear reasons for why they felt the change was needed.

At the time.  it probably made sense but then kind of contradicting it later..

melee nerfs to buff guns, or atleast attempted to change up metas.
catchmoon nerf... does anyone use that weapon now?
AoE ammo/damage weapons nerf, etc.
Giving guns arcanes, then nerfing gun arcanes.

then releasing melee arcanes, Incarnon weapons, etc.

[MutoManiac]

These days, it’s mainly just one player who shall not be named and is not a part of this thread. 😜 He just goes around complaining that everything is too strong and should be nerfed since they probably have access to everything and never plays solo.

[Aruquae]

This just in, DE gave into the negative hype 

14 minutes ago, crispb said:

At the time.  it probably made sense but then kind of contradicting it later..

melee nerfs to buff guns, or atleast attempted to change up metas.
catchmoon nerf... does anyone use that weapon now?
AoE ammo/damage weapons nerf, etc.
Giving guns arcanes, then nerfing gun arcanes.

then releasing melee arcanes, Incarnon weapons, etc.

Agreed, the AOE nerfs were completely valid… but then they decided to release Laetum and other AOE incarnons that are worse then pre nerfed bramma/zarr 

[Waeleto]

13 minutes ago, MutoManiac said:

These days, it’s mainly just one player who shall not be named and is not a part of this thread. 😜 He just goes around complaining that everything is too strong and should be nerfed since they probably have access to everything and never plays solo.

I think i know who you mean 

[Waeleto]

2 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

This just in, DE gave into the negative hype 

Agreed, the AOE nerfs were completely valid… but then they decided to release Laetum and other AOE incarnons that are worse then pre nerfed bramma/zarr 

"please stop using our aoe bramma and zarr and use our aoe latron and torid"

[vFlitz]

3 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Well then isn't this something to wake up to (And there are 3 threads about this, maybe we should merge them into one?)

Well here is my take on this:

I fully agree with Zaghyr here, while I admit I am a little bit disappointed that Dante is getting a "Nerf" (so to speak) I'm all in favour of giving him small or big adjustments to ensure not only he doesn't become dominant but also make it easier for other non-dante players to enjoy having him around. Even if he gets somewhat of a hit to his meta, that still won't change the fact that he'll always remain in my "Main" slot.

Also, I don't know if Players just somehow skim over this but Reb said exactly this: 

All DE is doing is as exactly as Zaghyr said: They are reviewing him and tweaking down some areas so he's not stupidly OP, Reb has made it clear that they want to keep Dante awesome, no matter what. (Sure this could all be just hot-air and a PR move) but I still think even after the adjustments Dante will still be a strong Frame.

The only people who will be dropping Dante IMO are the AFK-Wukong Players and Rev/Mesa Players, who realize they can't let the game play it for them and that's fine by me, Dante will still remain as my favourite frame and I will adjust my build to whatever adjustment he gets.

Even tho the only thing I can see changing is a Cap or two on his powers and a way for players to opt out of getting Overgaurd, we're not DE, all we can do is speculate

 

 So we'll have to wait and see but since players do want to speculate, here are what the adjustments will be:

 

• Overgaurd is capped
• LoS is added to his kit so he cannot nuke rooms as easily
• Negative Efficiency will be looked at & adjusted (or Efficiency in general) < This one worries me only a little
• Can no longer passively generate Overgaurd 
• Either an Augment is made or Players can opt-out of Overgaurd
• Adjust the Fire/Toxin & Slash detonation damage multiplier

 

That's all I can see getting changed

There's plenty of instances of such 'tweaks' butchering gear in the past, so yes, people are pessimistic.

Sure, a lot of people are allergic to the word 'nerf' in general, but in this case it's just genuinely unfair. The criteria Megan provided as grounds for nerfs are fulfilled to a greater degree by a large number of different frames that somehow aren't getting any attention. So either they're not actually a problem and therefore Dante shouldn't be either, or they are and they should get far higher priority for tweaks than Dante.

This is like back in the day when they nerfed Xoris as a statstick, slapping a caveat on it that made it completely unusable with any frame that has abilities that add to the combo countert, even though there were stronger statsticks out there. Xoris' offense was that it was both new and accessible because it was a quest reward. And now, melee statsticks have gotten stronger by entire orders of magnitude thanks to incarnons and melee arcanes, but Xoris and other weapons with a similar mechanic are still burdened with the change they got back then.

[Circle_of_Psi]

2 hours ago, Waeleto said:

It's already capped tho, maybe make it 50% or 25% for squad only?

Oh, I never noticed but perhaps if it was capped for the squad only, it might make it easier for teammates, since 50/25% will be eaten in high-level content, since it can cause issues for mods and other stuff to work, as people stated.

2 hours ago, Waeleto said:

This one will straight up kill dante i'm not even joking 

If they fix the Negative Efficiency no, but looking at his Efficiency by increasing it will, yes

I don't have Negative Efficiency on my build since I absolutely hate min-maxing and I'm not too fond of haveing numbers in the Negative, regardless of what build I have, since I hate seeing it, I like good numbers and even numbers, call it OCD if you want.

2 hours ago, Waeleto said:

I'm assuming this was an attempt to make overguard more useful in higher levels which it still isn't so idk why would this part be nerfed

Ah, never mind then

The only reason why I suggested it was that Dante can easily just re-cast his Light/Light to get OG back at any point, rather than just cast and forget

5 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

There's plenty of instances of such 'tweaks' butchering gear in the past, so yes, people are pessimistic.

Sure, a lot of people are allergic to the word 'nerf' in general, but in this case it's just genuinely unfair. The criteria Megan provided as grounds for nerfs are fulfilled to a greater degree by a large number of different frames that somehow aren't getting any attention. So either they're not actually a problem and therefore Dante shouldn't be either, or they are and they should get far higher priority for tweaks than Dante.

This is like back in the day when they nerfed Xoris as a statstick, slapping a caveat on it that made it completely unusable with any frame that has abilities that add to the combo countert, even though there were stronger statsticks out there. Xoris' offense was that it was both new and accessible because it was a quest reward. And now, melee statsticks have gotten stronger by entire orders of magnitude thanks to incarnons and melee arcanes, but Xoris and other weapons with a similar mechanic are still burdened with the change they got back then.

Fair enough

2 hours ago, artistredmdlee said:

These are pretty much the changes I can see happening which is a good thing cause it doesn't really make Dante bad per say but just puts them inline with the rest

Although I'm a bit wary of two these which are the Negative Efficiency and the Augment

I've seen the Augment suggestion being thrown around to make sharing Overguard less "disruptive" on specific play styles but I don't like this as an answer simply cause its still doing the same thing but with extra steps which doesn't really solve it from being disruptive at all.
I would prefer a review/change of Abilities and Mods that conflict with Overguard since it seems Overguard is here to stay as a mechanic and we'll just keep encountering the same issue down the line as more Frames get introduced with this on their Kit.

Hm, yeah

I don't see why Augment suggestion should be a thing but I just tossed it in there, since DE likes to bandaid things, rather then fix them

[Anova3]

7 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

There's plenty of instances of such 'tweaks' butchering gear in the past, so yes, people are pessimistic.

Sure, a lot of people are allergic to the word 'nerf' in general, but in this case it's just genuinely unfair. The criteria Megan provided as grounds for nerfs are fulfilled to a greater degree by a large number of different frames that somehow aren't getting any attention. So either they're not actually a problem and therefore Dante shouldn't be either, or they are and they should get far higher priority for tweaks than Dante.

This is like back in the day when they nerfed Xoris as a statstick, slapping a caveat on it that made it completely unusable with any frame that has abilities that add to the combo countert, even though there were stronger statsticks out there. Xoris' offense was that it was both new and accessible because it was a quest reward. And now, melee statsticks have gotten stronger by entire orders of magnitude thanks to incarnons and melee arcanes, but Xoris and other weapons with a similar mechanic are still burdened with the change they got back then.

This.

If they nerf him now, he won't get un-nerfed later when it makes sense.
We've seen that with exalteds too (which is my dead horse to beat, damnit) which still don't have arcanes or access to some mods.

[Corvid]

39 minutes ago, crispb said:

At the time.  it probably made sense but then kind of contradicting it later..

melee nerfs to buff guns, or atleast attempted to change up metas.
catchmoon nerf... does anyone use that weapon now?
AoE ammo/damage weapons nerf, etc.
Giving guns arcanes, then nerfing gun arcanes.

then releasing melee arcanes, Incarnon weapons, etc.

So... in each and every one of these cases they provided their reasoning, including when they felt the need to revise things later on when the meta shifted.

In other words, none of these nerfs were to things that "didn't need" it.

[_COY_]

16 hours ago, Kaiga said:

Do any of you remember such nerf speed previously?

Gyre nerf was quick, too.

-c0y

[crispb]

8 minutes ago, Corvid said:

So... in each and every one of these cases they provided their reasoning, including when they felt the need to revise things later on when the meta shifted.

In other words, none of these nerfs were to things that "didn't need" it.

Right.  But the fact they nerfed those things.. only to bring out newer things that completely overshadow it.  Why was it nerf in the first place?!  And it seems that the choices DE make are not their own, rather that of community/investors due to complaints, player loss, etc.  More so I am not even sure why DE is attempting to coerce the meta to begin with. 

Think I am just kind of deflated with the gaming industry.  At lot of this stuff is just hitting hard right now.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

And this sentiment only seems to pop up when something is atrociously overpowered and being abused or there is a really bad exploit

But when we point out even WORSE ones on POPULAR frames like saryn. Wisp. Mirage. That has been untouched for years. As soon someome critizises them its either swept under the rug immediatly or disregarded as someome just hating 'the meta'.

Or on the topic of overguard directly.

Why is no one outraged about styanax or frosts og generation the same way as dantes.

Frosts even comes with free armor strip. Tons of dmg. Cc in the freeze.

But i dont see a SINGLE mention of it.

I know for a fact when JADE comes out. It will be the same crowd screaming for nerfs.

 

[NameLessFreak]

17 minutes ago, Corvid said:

So... in each and every one of these cases they provided their reasoning, including when they felt the need to revise things later on when the meta shifted.

In other words, none of these nerfs were to things that "didn't need" it.

No they didn't need it, DE's logic was always everything else sucks but this thing here, this thing must suck harder so everyone else uses the other garbage oh and lemme release new weapons that are actually better than the other garbage before. Incarnons is DE actually properly handling the issue of build diversity and look at it now, we have a multitude of weapons and builds that can perform well. Same with Helmith and AS systems with warframes. However certain frames and weapons were so bad nothing can really save them other than a rework. 

[Bizzo50]

I don't know, for me it comes down to fun, and Dante is the most fun I have had playing a frame in a while. I think he's just awesome as-is. And I know it's on me, but because I was so excited for him I spent the $15 to get him and the extras and didn't regret it for a moment... until the announced nerf. 

 

I know I know, DE hits things with the nerf bat, I know that they need to balance the game, I know they are trying their best, it just sucks to see fun get nerfed.

[Bizzo50]

18 minutes ago, crispb said:

Right.  But the fact they nerfed those things.. only to bring out newer things that completely overshadow it.  Why was it nerf in the first place?!  And it seems that the choices DE make are not their own, rather that of community/investors due to complaints, player loss, etc.  More so I am not even sure why DE is attempting to coerce the meta to begin with. 

Think I am just kind of deflated with the gaming industry.  At lot of this stuff is just hitting hard right now.

Exactly how I am feeling. I've seen it too many times. I love this game and got so excited to see the launch of an actually amazing frame, and it's so disappointing that it's getting some of the fun sucked out of it right out of the gate.

[Corvid]

10 minutes ago, crispb said:

But the fact they nerfed those things.. only to bring out newer things that completely overshadow it.  Why was it nerf in the first place?!

Because they want to add cool stuff to the game, and don't always realise just how broken some of that cool stuff can get.

Incarnons were originally meant to be balanced out vs AOE by the fact that you couldn't get 100% uptime for the stronger mode. Evidently some of them need some tuning on that front, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see a balance pass for Incarnons later down the road. Hell, the fact that they've been so powerful for so long proves that DE don't just wave the nerf hammer haphazardly.

17 minutes ago, crispb said:

More so I am not even sure why DE is attempting to coerce the meta to begin with.

Ultimately it boils down to not wanting the game to become stale. If one tactic and/or build becomes completely dominant over the game it will lead to monotony.

 

1 minute ago, NameLessFreak said:

DE's logic was always everything else sucks but this thing here, this thing must suck harder so everyone else uses the other garbage oh and lemme release new weapons that are actually better than the other garbage before. Incarnons is DE actually properly handling the issue of build diversity and look at it now, we have a multitude of weapons and builds that can perform well. Same with Helmith and AS systems with warframes.

Are you really unable to see the contradiction here?

"DE want everything to suck... except when they add systems that make things not suck!".

 

2 minutes ago, Bizzo50 said:

I know I know, DE hits things with the nerf bat, I know that they need to balance the game, I know they are trying their best, it just sucks to see fun get nerfed.

Perhaps wait to see what the changes will actually be before claiming that they're taking the fun away?

[Bizzo50]

Just now, Corvid said:

Because they want to add cool stuff to the game, and don't always realise just how broken some of that cool stuff can get.

Incarnons were originally meant to be balanced out vs AOE by the fact that you couldn't get 100% uptime for the stronger mode. Evidently some of them need some tuning on that front, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see a balance pass for Incarnons later down the road. Hell, the fact that they've been so powerful for so long proves that DE don't just wave the nerf hammer haphazardly.

Ultimately it boils down to not wanting the game to become stale. If one tactic and/or build becomes completely dominant over the game it will lead to monotony.

 

Are you really unable to see the contradiction here?

"DE want everything to suck... except when they add systems that make things not suck!".

 

Perhaps wait to see what the changes will actually be before claiming that they're taking the fun away?

Making a powerful frame less powerful objectively takes the fun away in a power fantasy game.

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

The game is too easy. Most of the game should be nerfed.

[CrownOfShadows]

15 minutes ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

But when we point out even WORSE ones on POPULAR frames like saryn. Wisp. Mirage. That has been untouched for years. As soon someome critizises them its either swept under the rug immediatly or disregarded as someome just hating 'the meta'.

Or on the topic of overguard directly.

Why is no one outraged about styanax or frosts og generation the same way as dantes.

Frosts even comes with free armor strip. Tons of dmg. Cc in the freeze.

But i dont see a SINGLE mention of it.

I know for a fact when JADE comes out. It will be the same crowd screaming for nerfs.

 

Hm, there are plenty of posts out there about overgaurd and pretty much everything else, I just made one recently myself:

They just don't get the community all worked up.

And even I myself also mentioned Styanax just before this:

 

*We should be saying something about Nezha's augment too but I guess we can only shout about one thing at a time as a community.

[Joylesstuna]

10 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Hm, there are plenty of posts out there about overgaurd and pretty much everything else, I just made one recently myself:

They just don't get the community all worked up.

And even I myself also mentioned Styanax just before this:

 

*We should be saying something about Nezha's augment too but I guess we can only shout about one thing at a time as a community.

Nezha's augment is much more of a problem then Dante but hey, priorities.

[Corvid]

Just now, Bizzo50 said:

Making a powerful frame less powerful objectively takes the fun away in a power fantasy game.

First of all, you can't say it "objectively" has any effect on the fun of an experience, given that fun itself is a subjective term.

Furthermore "Power Fantasy" doesn't just mean "I'm an unstoppable god that obliterates everything that dares to oppose me". In many cases, it actually means the opposite, giving the player the chance to overcome challenges where the odds are stacked against them and feel powerful that way.

Going to a game that I played fairly recently for an example, Armored Core VI is a power fantasy. You're a 10-metre-tall flying death machine that can use all manner of awesome weapons while dancing circles around enemy projectiles. However, you also need to be careful because playing recklessly (especially against bosses) will result in you taking hits that you may not be able to survive. You feel powerful when you complete that game specifically because it tested you (either your ability to navigate the hazards of the mission, or having the knowledge to create a build best suited to cheesing those hazards).

Now, I'm not expecting DE to change Warframe to be more like AC6 (though I think it would be cool if they took inspiration from some of the bosses in that game. The idea of a fight between a Warframe and a boss similar to BALTEUS or IBIS CEL 240 gives me chills), since this game has its own style of power fantasy. My point is that reducing the power of an outlier doesn't diminish Warframe's ability to provide said fantasy.

Regardless of all of the above, Dante will likely still be powerful post-nerf, given that DE have specifically stated that they don't want to be too heavy-handed with the nerfs.

[moondog548]

They did not. 

Watch the 15 min stream before you make a crisis on the forums.

Rebb was extreeeemely clear about the conditions that cause them on rare occassions to 'nerf' something, and that that wasn't the case now a mere week in, that they're happy that people like Dante and feel powerful, but that they are keeping an eye on things going forward to see if his state meets those very specific conditions that warrant a dialing back.

Edited April 3 by moondog548