Dante and LoS Issues and next steps

[DarknessGrima]

Fix divine retribution 50% range decrease killed the augment that was way over the bloody top now its a TRASH augment 

Edited April 5 by DarknessGrima

[LordOfKenpo]

45 minutes ago, Mazifet said:

Hey @[DE]Pablo, don't listen to these people!

The upcoming changes to LoS are great, and the new tech will also improve a lot of other warframes in the future.

Just because these changes are good doesn't mean they shouldn't fix bad changes they made. They can do both. This issue was unintended originally and had nothing to do with what people are asking for. They should have fixed this a long time ago as it was a bug. The nerf should never have happened in the first place especially after people spent money on the frame (and the ones that didn't only had 2-3 days to play him). Dante was a really fun frame so making him unplayable is upsetting since many of us feel they finally got a frame right at launch. Play count the week a frame comes out should not be grounds for nerfing. People were still excited about him and he was fun. That's why people were playing him. It was a sign DE did something right so they immediately break it. Reb had promised this wouldn't be a major nerf and then they made him about as playable as Caliban.

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

Every time someone calls out warframes like Saryn, Mesa, Gyre, Octavia, Gauss, etc, as being similar problems to pre-nerf Dante, all I can say is, "Yes! They are seriously problems! Let's not add another one!"

Adding a line of sight check to a nuke wasn't a mistake. The real mistake was in releasing Dante--and many other nuke frames--without a functioning system of this kind in the first place. We shouldn't be used to deleting tiles of enemies while barely looking at them. That S#&$ sucks and is boring! It turns off most of Warframe's features so one player, pressing ability keys faster, gets all the "fun" of making a kill number go up.

If the enemies die and never ever see you, the game is miserable and boring, ya'll!

I know the game is a fantasy, but even a fantasy has limits before it becomes dull and non-interactive. The opposition you face, the interactions you give to the game, the weapons you use--these are what add interest to the mechanics of playing it. Every frame that sweeps through a map and deletes all content is bad for gameplay, even if it is instrumentally better for you, personally, while you're farming some particular content's loot tables.

For context, I play this game a lot. A lot a lot. This year, I went from MR 0 to Legendary 2 in about 2700 hours of play. I made Warframe one of my primary past times for a whole year. Every one of these frames that people mention is and was for the entire time the WORST PART of the game. One player shouldn't play the game for everyone else on the map. I should know, my second most played frame was Mesa Prime that year, and I regret it. Playing her nearly sucked the joy out of Warframe, and certainly, she removed any challenges.

Any nuke that can destroy everything without line of sight is genuinely horrible for the game. Tidal waves of feedback demanding the reversion of the nerf are missing the long term design goal. They remind me of the tidal waves of negative feedback that you can still find in the Steam reviews when they nerfed AoE weaponry. This game will become tedious and pointless if there isn't some restriction on how a player interacts with content, if there isn't some limit so that one player with a nukeframe can't consume all other forms of play.

Just because you're comfortable with some terrible designs that many players have come to rely on as crutches, doesn't mean we should add even more of them.

[nicolajtheking2]

1 hour ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

Just admit already that you messed up and revert dante's nerfs, you bound him when he was supposed to be UNBOUND!

[Ed3mon]

Suggestion

First revert everything, Then make Light Verse have the Same LOS as DS, and when an ally is affected by it they get a mark that lasts until triumph is casted, and when triumph is casted any frame that either has a mark or already has OG and are in range they benefit from Triumph. 
If this isn’t possible then I don’t know 

Edited April 5 by Ed3mon

[lukinu_u]

il y a 19 minutes, TwistedEventide0666 a dit :

You clearly haven’t played Warframe, either that or are still so new to the game that you don’t know what you’re talking about and don’t realize why nuke frames are necessary. Not to mention the fact that several frames have nuke abilities: Saryn, Equinox, Gauss, Xaku and many others that DONT have LoS checks on their nuke abilities. Saryn has TWO between Spores and Miasma. Even Hydroid can nuke now with his recent rework. 

Nuke frames aren't "necessary", they are the flaw that make the game unfun and cause all the powercreep in this game.

Line of sight check should be on all abilities (aside from very small AoE intended to work this way). It would make the entire game much more enjoyable and make placement matter more when using such abilities.
The only viable way of killing an enemy out of light of sight should be bounces or precise attack with penetration (Zenith).

[Museigen]

4 minutes ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

Every time someone calls out warframes like Saryn, Mesa, Gyre, Octavia, Gauss, etc, as being similar problems to pre-nerf Dante, all I can say is, "Yes! They are seriously problems! Let's not add another one!"

Adding a line of sight check to a nuke wasn't a mistake. The real mistake was in releasing Dante--and many other nuke frames--without a functioning system of this kind in the first place. We shouldn't be used to deleting tiles of enemies while barely looking at them. That S#&$ sucks and is boring! It turns off most of Warframe's features so one player, pressing ability keys faster, gets all the "fun" of making a kill number go up.

If the enemies die and never ever see you, the game is miserable and boring, ya'll!

I know the game is a fantasy, but even a fantasy has limits before it becomes dull and non-interactive. The opposition you face, the interactions you give to the game, the weapons you use--these are what add interest to the mechanics of playing it. Every frame that sweeps through a map and deletes all content is bad for gameplay, even if it is instrumentally better for you, personally, while you're farming some particular content's loot tables.

For context, I play this game a lot. A lot a lot. This year, I went from MR 0 to Legendary 2 in about 2700 hours of play. I made Warframe one of my primary past times for a whole year. Every one of these frames that people mention is and was for the entire time the WORST PART of the game. One player shouldn't play the game for everyone else on the map. I should know, my second most played frame was Mesa Prime that year, and I regret it. Playing her nearly sucked the joy out of Warframe, and certainly, she removed any challenges.

Any nuke that can destroy everything without line of sight is genuinely horrible for the game. Tidal waves of feedback demanding the reversion of the nerf are missing the long term design goal. They remind me of the tidal waves of negative feedback that you can still find in the Steam reviews when they nerfed AoE weaponry. This game will become tedious and pointless if there isn't some restriction on how a player interacts with content, if there isn't some limit so that one player with a nukeframe can't consume all other forms of play.

Just because you're comfortable with some terrible designs that many players have come to rely on as crutches, doesn't mean we should add even more of them.

Except you're wrong about Dante. He always had line of sight check on his Dark Verse, which is Tragedy enabler. This was a not problem from the begining. You should focus on the 1 buttom destroy all, if that is your problem. The Tragedy non-los requirement was the concept of exploding "all" enemies you marked with your abilities and weapons.

Edited April 5 by Museigen

[Diaxt3r]

I'm glad you guys listen to feedback 😍

[NightmareT12]

2 minutes ago, Kuwagata said:

That's good to hear. I hope they actually listen to us 

Hope so too. I want to wait to test the proper changes first before giving feedback, but I still double down that at release I thought his abilities had a lot of range VS other warframes I usually play, which is what surprises me. Could literally go through Eximus with a full Dark Verse + ult rotation in Steel Path with barely any Forma, which I found strangely odd. Can understand the frustration though, despite not sharing the ideas of a 100% full revert.

[MetalMechabolic]

5 minutes ago, Crackensan said:

But Gyre can do this: https://new.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1bwb38m/in_honor_of_dantes_nerf_here_is_gyre_nuking_a/
Octavia; Saryn; Thermal Sunder; NONE of these require line of Sight but the BRAND NEW Warframe gets beaten over the head with a LOS Check?

OH BOY, I HAVE A GYRE!  Time to cheese content and destroy entire tilesets!

[Mewvg2]

Revert the Dante and Nezha changes entirely.

There is no other acceptable option.

 

There is no way you have enough data in 8 days to make sweeping nerfs. All you are doing is making sure the community has no reason to get excited for future content on release in the future. It follows the pattern of Styanax post release nerfs and Voruna / Dagath / Qorvex pre-release nerfs and lack of fixes for months. There is no reason to get excited for new content anymore, it'll either come out in a worthless state or be nerfed to oblivion within the first month.

 

I don't care about the new game mode, my best friend that I wanted to play the new game mode with was so excited for Dante and enjoys playing him so much I can't just ruin his entire reason for playing at the moment by breaking the news about the nerfs to him. Thanks for ruining what was a golden update with bull$%#@.

[randomkaleb]

I think this is a good change to LOS, and happy to see it till be making it's way to other abilities. 

I still hope this isn't the last  change to Dante though, playing through the Sanctum Anatomica content I'm finding myself struggling to survive, you have to spend a lot of energy on Triumph to keep enough guard up. I think a solution could have been just reducing Light Verse's and Triumph's effectiveness on teammates, it could still be at that 40% mark it is now, and keep the big overguard for Dante himself, since he has no good other survival tools like damage reduction or high health and armor. 

I think the Pageflight nerf was unfortunate, it really cuts Tragedy's damage especially on enemies that can take a limited number of procs, and I am finding myself struggling to deal with things like demolishers with dante vs other frames, even with the Wordwarden buff. 

 

[KesslerCOIL]

1 hour ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

Candid question, if the playerbase still feels this isnt enough to keep him feeling good to play would you consider reverting the change and/or nerfing something else instead?

[lukinu_u]

1 hour ago, Rihenwn said:

You actually realize there are other warframes that do this, do you? Have you ever played Warframe? I'm just asking, since you haven't even tried Dante and yet you're here giving feedback on this. (Yes, profiles are public, maybe you're not familiar with the game's UI as well).

Ah yes, because I need to play the Warframe to judge an ability that is literally just AoE around the player that kill stuff. Very deep mechanic that need testing to get a grasp of how it work.

59 minutes ago, Stomno said:

-snip-

As I've just answered to someone else in this post, I don't need to play a Warframe to judge an ability that is literally just damage in AoE.
There is nothing to understand or learn about it, it's simple enough to know exactly how it works just by looking at the numbers.

[PsychoxUnicorn]

Im sure that either your deaf or have comprehension issues? I dont understand why you even bother to heae our feedbacks and still insist on doing what u want to do.

We players, specially those who bought the pack felt like we've been scammed. You baited us about this good frame and then dropped the bomb after a week with a biggest nerf.

This is not warframe anymore, it is more like scamframe

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

4 minutes ago, Museigen said:

Except you're wrong about Dante. He always had line of sight check on his Dark Verse, which is Tragedy enabler. This was a not problem from the begining. You should focus on the 1 buttom destroy all, if that is your problem.

You're replying to something I never said.

For context, I sat there in Discord streams with my friends for several hours on release, as my girlfriend spent plat to rush Dante. We know how he works, We tested it, watching him trivialize steel path content. I was reinforcing the notion that we need more line of site checks on most frames that nuke. I'm arguing that comparing Dante to other nuke frames only shows that nerfing those frames would also be healthier for the game.

[Museigen]

2 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Ah yes, because I need to play the Warframe to judge an ability that is literally just AoE around the player that kill stuff. Very deep mechanic that need testing to get a grasp of how it work.

Wrong. It's an ability that needs eneblers. It needs two casts of another ability, and its damage depends on status. So, yeah, the ability is not that simple. You didn't play him and it shows.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

Man my joke post about NERF JADE is gona come true isnt it. You will just nerf her in 2 days when she comes out, wont you..

[buciika]

What is the point of all these extra steps?

Dante out since last week, not enough time. A new warframe having high play playrate? good you guys did good job. Just revert all the LoS changes and revisit 3 months later. 

Edited April 5 by buciika

[GamingSausageDog]

Apply the new LoS logic to frames who have had to deal with its tragedy, and remove LoS from the ability tragedy. It was explicitly stated in the hotfix notes that there wasn’t an issue with his damage output, and that you were looking at ‘small tweaks’.

Please don’t make this the precedent moving forward, it’s a bitter taste.

[Azvalk]

 

Citation

 

Final Verse’s “Tragedy” now only affects enemies within Line of Sight.

• This felt like the most reasonable change to Tragedy since it could be cast back to back without much forethought on positioning. So to make it a more active ability, enemies must now be within range in your Line of Sight to be impacted by it. 

 

The intention is understandable, not to have an ult that can be spammed without thinking and clearing the map. OK.
But the freedom of not having line of sight restrictions is too much of the fun of this power.
So one solution would be to go back to no restrictions, but to discourage spam.
An additional cost, in health ( 'cause it's "dark" :p ), calculated in % of max health. Leading us to 1pv minimum, not possible to kill us with it.
It may seem awful, but it will give an opportunity to run archon intensify with its 2.

Edited April 5 by Azvalk

[Waeleto]

1 minute ago, lukinu_u said:

As I've just answered to someone else in this post, I don't need to play a Warframe to judge an ability that is literally just damage in AoE.
There is nothing to understand or learn about it, it's simple enough to know exactly how it works just by looking at the numbers.

Yes of course but saryn who passively kills level cap enemies while armor stripping and provides insane weapon platforming buffs is balanced

[Obitas]

If you dont remove the LoS requirement for Tragedy and are adamant on your decision to keep it I hope to god that you add the same requirement to ALL AOE SPELLS THAT ARE DISRUPTIVE. No more Saryn spores and miasma, no more Mirage 2, no more Volt 4. Either you remove it from Tragedy or you change them all no in between. You already ruined all relevant CC from frames so you might aswell ruin all relevant aoe spells from frames too.
This whole hotfix was a joke.

[Museigen]

2 minutes ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

You're replying to something I never said.

For context, I sat there in Discord streams with my friends for several hours on release, as my girlfriend spent plat to rush Dante. We know how he works, We tested it, watching him trivialize steel path content. I was reinforcing the notion that we need more line of site checks on most frames that nuke. I'm arguing that comparing Dante to other nuke frames only shows that nerfing those frames would also be healthier for the game.

"Adding a line of sight check to a nuke wasn't a mistake. The real mistake was in releasing Dante--and many other nuke frames--without a functioning system."
You quite literally said that he had to have line of sight to his nuke. I'm saying that indirectly he already had. Because this is not an one buttom nuke like the other exemples you gave.

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

1 minute ago, Waeleto said:

Yes of course but saryn who passively kills level cap enemies while armor stripping and provides insane weapon platforming buffs is balanced

Did you ask lukinu if that's the case? I'd bet they'd say that Saryn isn't balanced.

Personally, I'd argue Saryn is a huge #*!%ing balance problem. I carried an elite deep archimedea run using solely Saryn Prime yesterday. I'm aware of how stupidly strong she is.