Dante and LoS Issues and next steps

[KRPDwolf]

Fully revert the LoS change. Is that hard to understand?

[Giant_Dad_Prime]

4 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

I wouldn't say you botched it, I'd say that you missed the LoS system just simply not doing the job it should be doing well enough.

Adding LoS to Tragedy honestly, was a perfectly fine change. I've literally just today practically carried 2 void cascades for 50m, nuking entire rooms perfectly fine because I simply positioned properly.
Level 800 enemies being nuked in a single cast? Yep, still works. I also had 0 issue keeping overguard up while continuing to nuke.

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https://clips.twitch.tv/SoftScrumptiousTortoisePJSugar-Y28_FfaXGwyracw3

 

Please do not listen to the Armchair Devs. 

You're missing the point I believe. It's about it feeling clunky and not fun to play anymore, not just nuking one dude in front of you. Any warframe can do this with a good weapon.

You're also..."armchair" deving right now.

[Shodian87]

3 minutes ago, MrDerpHerpin said:

hey, i know this isn't the best place to put this here @[DE]Pablobut i refunded dante and forgot to remove the shards off of him before getting my refund, and i also didn't have the bile to do it, so please if its possible could i get my archon shards back? i had 2 tauforged on him and have already submitted a ticket. i apologize for all of this...

Oof. Lol

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

Don’t revert LoS. Thanks

[Dex-Lemon]

and all those "feedback" which you fellas are "Listening" for this specific "update" to revert is now shove into the gutter, kuddos for LISTENING! 

Edited April 5 by Dex-Lemon

[Petroklos]

1 hour ago, Zenosfire-TTV said:

Hey Pablo and team! I asked on twitter but I supposed I should ask here as well/instead. Does the silver lining mean this new LoS tech will be applied to all LoS abilities in the game? I assume it wouldn't happen today with this hotfix, but is it something that we can look forward to in the future? Would be a great improvement to all of the LoS abilities usability. Thanks a ton! 

It seems that at the very least some of them will:

2 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

[Gandalf_White]

I'm just going to quote what I said previously, because I don't have the nerves for your guys' stubborness...

 

Quote

I don't understand why are you all trying to push this LoS so badly onto his Tragedy? IT ALREADY HAS A SOFT LOS! YOU NEED TO PRIME ENEMIES WITH STATUS FROM HIS 3 WHICH IS LOS. YOU CANNOT NUKE WITHOUT THAT ON ANYTHING THAT IS HIGHER THAN LVL 30. He does NOT need a DOUBLE LOS CHECK. All it does is makes him ANNOYING to use. Being able to mark one group with one use of 3 and another group with another 3, then kill them with 4 was awesome, fun, Dante felt like a chad to use without being too OP. Unlike other, stronger nuke frames, you had to do some preparation to be able to nuke with Dante. Now you can't even do that because you need to have them in view, slowly deleting one group at a time. Why would I use his abilities at that point when my guns can clear out said group 5 times faster!? Jesus.

 

This is so. ungodly. frustrating. I've been waiting for a wizard themed frame ever since 2016, I love wizards as you might have guessed from my nickname. I fashion framed my Dante to look as closely to Gandalf as I could. And now what? Now he's useless. Unfun. And he will be like that even after the supposed "fix". 

And this:

Quote

Previously I could breeze accross the room, marking groups of enemies with Dark Verse and then killing them with Final Verse.

 

Now I can't do that. Now I have to mark a group, then waste a Dark Verse on the same group (because doing this on another group won't do anything much anyways) and kill them with 4, all while constantly staring right at them.

My off-meta guns (quellor, kuva karak, tenora prime) can wipe that group faster (ON STEEL PATH) than Dante can cast two Dark Verses and a Final verse WITH 2 tau casting speed shards. There's no point in using his damage abilities anymore.

 

Edited April 5 by Gandalf_White

[Gaxxian]

3 ESO rounds (5m 1s), 1161 kills. Completely dominating with afk gameplay. Please, NERF.

My reccomendation would be to add LoS, halve damage and having to press 3 buttons using 100 energy.

Edited April 5 by Gaxxian

[TGKaze]

1 hour ago, Zenosfire-TTV said:

Hey Pablo and team! I asked on twitter but I supposed I should ask here as well/instead. Does the silver lining mean this new LoS tech will be applied to all LoS abilities in the game? I assume it wouldn't happen today with this hotfix, but is it something that we can look forward to in the future? Would be a great improvement to all of the LoS abilities usability. Thanks a ton! 

 

[RivaAurelius]

If the changes aren't reverted I will be requesting a refund. We don't want LoS on Dante. We don't even want LoS that WORKS on Dante. We want the Dante we BOUGHT on launch with our very real, hard earned money.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

10 pages of ppl disagreeing this is the way.

In an hour.

 

 

[nicolajtheking2]

1 minute ago, RivaAurelius said:

If the changes aren't reverted I will be requesting a refund. We don't want LoS on Dante. We don't even want LoS that WORKS on Dante. We want the Dante we BOUGHT on launch with our very real, hard earned money.

+1

[NuxWalpurgis]

2 hours ago, NuxWalpurgis said:

Quoting this post because it pretty succinctly describes the actual problem with your nerf philosophy and overall design philosophy, DE.

It's flagrantly obvious that you don't actually PLAY the game you're trying to balance, especially when the entirety of everyone's complaints with Dante had NOTHING to do with his abilities and everything to do with Overguard as a mechanic.

These changes don't need a rework. They don't need a line of sight fix. They don't need some tweaking and rebalancing.

 

They need to be reverted entirely. 5 days from the newest warframe's release is NOT enough time to gather data for an actual minor tweak, much less the absurdity of this nerf. It killed his identity less than two days after most players who didn't buy Dante could even play him.

 

If you want constructive feedback, consider this. Unless this change is reverted, I'm not buying any new release frames or weapons until I'm aware that they aren't going to be nerfed into irrelevance with false justifications when Octavia can render Steel Path an AFK-fest. Especially when your own words about "minor tweaks" and "not touching damage" and "taking time to carefully consider balance and stats first" are outright lies.

 

This was a nerf. And you lied about it.

Copying in my post from the other feedback thread.

This change needs to be reverted. Nerfing a functional frame into a buggy mess without even understand the actual issues people had with it only 5 days after release is insane.

"Not going to nerf Dante" indeed. "Minor tweaks" indeed. All in the same update that makes crowd control frames weaker across the board.

The entire "hotfix" was rushed, imbalanced, and poorly implemented. Why would I spend money on Jade's upcoming release now when it's completely up in the air whether it'll even play the same 5 days later?

[Theweedle]

Pablo I love you man, youve done so much good for this game, but tragedy getting LoS aint it. Please reconsider adding it to tragedy in the first place. The ability will feel so much worse with it, and it doesnt even really need it. Enemies must be tagged with a DoT in the first place to be killed by tragedy. Dark verse requires LoS, weapon priming requires LoS.. My point is, that this change is largely pointless, and only serves to make Dante feel more clunky than he needs to feel.

I loved being able to tag multiple separated groups of enemies with dark verse and then be able to detonate them with tragedy without having to worry about a small rock completely blocking the damage.

If a nerf must happen, consider just a small range reduction, or possibly making it so only statuses the player applied detonating.

[LordOfKenpo]

1 minute ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

10 pages of ppl disagreeing this is the way.

In an hour.

 

 

There are 40 more pages on other threads

[Stormandreas]

3 minutes ago, Giant_Dad_Prime said:

You're missing the point I believe. It's about it feeling clunky and not fun to play anymore, not just nuking one dude in front of you. Any warframe can do this with a good weapon.

You're also..."armchair" deving right now.

Not fun? I dunno, I had a blast oneshottting rooms of level 800 enemies while upkeeping my Overguard without any difficulty cause all I had to do was jump.

I literally just reworded what Pablo was saying in a more positive light XD aight then, apparently that's Armchair devving though.

[BloodyPrimeSkull]

so many pages of indignation..) Is that enough for you or what else can we do to make you hear us?

[silver1877]

2 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

so let me get this strait what if i see just his neck or his chest or all of his leg my ability wont work then one solution would be to check every possible poligon but that would probably kill the performance 

PS. please refund all forma and time all players poured into it cause this is strait up scam he feel just clunky now

[iSiawPrime]

There’s 50+ pages mostly consisting on players asking DE to REVERT the Tragedy changes, listen to your community for once, we don’t want the LoS on Tragedy full stop.

[Museigen]

17 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

I wouldn't say you botched it, I'd say that you missed the LoS system just simply not doing the job it should be doing well enough.

Adding LoS to Tragedy honestly, was a perfectly fine change. I've literally just today practically carried 2 void cascades for 50m, nuking entire rooms perfectly fine because I simply positioned properly.
Level 800 enemies being nuked in a single cast? Yep, still works. I also had 0 issue keeping overguard up while continuing to nuke.

  Hide contents

https://clips.twitch.tv/SoftScrumptiousTortoisePJSugar-Y28_FfaXGwyracw3

 

Please do not listen to the Armchair Devs. 

What are you even talking about? You're dealing with a single enemy in a clean arena. Congratulations, any good weapon do the same. This is not what is being discussed here, since the main function, and the focus of the discussion, is AoE.

Edited April 5 by Museigen

[sestofish]

Good work on the nerfs Pablo. People genuinely comparing Dante to frames like Gauss or Wisp have no idea what they're talking about. Keep up the good work and ignore the children acting like it's the end of the world he was nerfed somewhat.

[Monolake]

2 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

Please fix LoS problems on Ember and Qorvex 1  too, also time to remove uncapped energy drain from Ember. And fix Qorvex 2 - it doesn't work at all on any units that matter (overguard, special type ie demos, thraxes) - there was plenty of feedback on Qorvex problems, don't ignore it please!

[Siic07]

@[DE]Pablo you didn't read anything the players are sayingIt's very simple to remove OG from allies and remove Dante's nerfs

[DarthVZ]

3 минуты назад, BloodyPrimeSkull сказал:

so many pages of indignation..) Is that enough for you or what else can we do to make you hear us?

Only if enough people vote with thier wallets. At the very least people should flood the support with refund demands. 

[Giant_Dad_Prime]

1 minute ago, Stormandreas said:

Not fun? I dunno, I had a blast oneshottting rooms of level 800 enemies while upkeeping my Overguard without any difficulty cause all I had to do was jump.

I literally just reworded what Pablo was saying in a more positive light XD aight then, apparently that's Armchair devving though.

Wait no that's my point, that was kinda the joke. I was riffing about how you call constructive criticism, which is all over this thread, "armchair deving" just because it's opinions you don't agree with. I'm glad you're having fun, but clearly the silent majority that was having fun with the new update, aren't anymore. You don't really have anything to gain here other than just posting stuff to try to piss people off.