Dante and LoS Issues and next steps

[[DE]Pablo]

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

[cebbolar]

Give Dante back his freedom. Cancel the nerf

[RitaSanderson]

Just remove LoS, that's all

[Askell91]

Man if these are "tweaks" how will the "nerfs" look in the future 🤣

[Waeleto]

There actually no way all the feedback is flying over your heads like that, you have well over 100+ pages of feedback on the LoS and overguard but you're still not listening

[Aturixios]

If you're skewering Dante this much might as well go for LoS on Saryn and Equinox too

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 minute ago, Waeleto said:

There actually no way all the feedback is flying over your heads like that, you have well over 100+ pages of feedback on the LoS and overguard but you're still not listening

But it seems it is

Look at the main topic of Megen's post 3-4 of the main posts have well over 100 likes

[masanbol]

Please just listen to us. Remove LoS on Tragedy, adjust damage if you want, but LoS just feels bad to play.

[Darkmatt3r]

.-.

[Gaxxian]

Outrageous.... 

 

Revert ALL nerfs on Dante OR Refund our inversions on Dante!

[Waeleto]

1 minute ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

But it seems it is

Look at the main topic of Megen's post 3-4 of the main posts have well over 100 likes

It's mind blowing to me, this whole thing started because people asked for dante to not give overguard to allies because of it's conflict with inaros/nidus/chroma and they proceed to nerf HIS OWN overguard to the point it's worse that styanax and destroy his dmg ....

[DenisJaguar]

At least Jade the new warframe coming later this year know exactly what will happen to her 1 week after release.

[KamuiHyuga]

Question: Are there going to be any adjustments to the fact that Overguard blocks things like Rage and Hunter Adrenaline from working?  If you run these as a method of energy management, and you gain Overguard from any source, but most easily from Dante, then this other frame has managed to disrupt your gameplay quite a bit.  One fix could be to allow Overguard damage to trigger the above mod effects at reduced effectiveness, since Overguard does not gain benefit from damage reduction effects, and you didn't die of running out of it like you would health.

[TahmKnecht]

Please remove LoS on him. We dont care about the Overguard nerfs but the tragedy nerfs just make us not wanna play him anymore.

[Vazumongr]

I guess I'm in the minority when I say I am in favor of LoS checks and believe that mindless one-button-nukes in a 30m+ radius are bad for the overall health of the game in majority of cases. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[-ShadowRadiance-]

HOW many whole PAGES of people screaming to revert the changes and you just.. what? swept it under the rug??

WOW. 

 

Il say it again: 
NERF JADE. BEFORE you release her and give us hope she will be good.

This was a low blow.

So many ppl are outraged and 'this' is the best after so many people are mad??? 

Enjoy getting another 40 pages of people being mad ON THIS THREAD

[Misaania]

And I'm going to remain active in this comment chain, just like I was in the previous.

Are we sure this will make him viable? I'm uncertain of the case. He's still detrimental to Warframes that thrive off lost health. I've specifically trusted your redesigns, Pablo, but you're all really going all in on the changes. It feels like you're all ready to call it a day and convince us to give up on the matter when we all ask for the same things.

Reverting him or limiting his range is the easy way.

This is the medium way, but now may I ask something that's equally important?

Does this mean we're going to see you adding the same check to all LoS Warframes? Khora whipclaw and Ember immolation being two examples off the top of my head. If you're just fixing Dante because we're frustrated by this change, then it strikes me as frantic efforts to placate us, but not necessarily to make us happy.

Better doesn't necessarily mean good, and Warframes do extremely poorly on Line of Sight. Is Line of Sight a hill to die on much like universal loot pickup?

I'm trying to hard to reach out from a purely understanding and helpful way, giving as much genuine criticism without being disrespectful, but the parroting of this makes me want to see you guys doing better in other areas.

[Sibblesandbits]

This is such a bad look. Pls just listen to the mountain of feedback that we have left regarding LOS changes. Get rid of it, it has no place in his kit and feels bad to play. 
 

FULLY REVERT THE LOS CHANGE 

[NightmareT12]

Thanks Pablo for explaining.

I have to ask, and I hope you guys understand where I come from, though, how is it possible during playtesting no one realized the mechanics could be overtuned? Combining Power Strength and lots of range is feasible right now due the state of builds, despite Overextended trying to compensate for it, yet Dark Verse is probably one of the biggest range damaging AoE abilities I've seen ever in the game. I can't believe no one tried to play in a squad with a high range, high strength build.

I feel something should be noted during the design phase, it's always more pleasant to buff some stats after a week than nerfing them, especially on a popular frame. May also want to dust off the test server launcher if possible for the future, or try to invite streamers or such to test the frames allowing them to showcase them or something.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

7 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

But it seems it is

Look at the main topic of Megen's post 3-4 of the main posts have well over 100 likes

Consider alot of ppl have just found out, including me you have a max amount of likes per day. Meaning that number most likely is LOWER then what it is.

[lukinu_u]

That's a good change.
Don't listen to people asking for a revert, if they want AoE nuke across walls, they don't actually want to play the game.

[Breakingerr]

Doesn't address main thing everyone have been asking for

[NLGUnknown]

just remove it already jeez no one wants that everyone legit said don’t fix it just go back to how dante was how hard is it to understand????

[Zenosfire-TTV]

Hey Pablo and team! I asked on twitter but I supposed I should ask here as well/instead. Does the silver lining mean this new LoS tech will be applied to all LoS abilities in the game? I assume it wouldn't happen today with this hotfix, but is it something that we can look forward to in the future? Would be a great improvement to all of the LoS abilities usability. Thanks a ton! 

[cebbolar]

1 минуту назад, Vazumongr сказал:

Думаю, я в меньшинстве, когда говорю, что выступаю за проверки LoS и считаю, что бессмысленные удары одной кнопкой в радиусе 30 м + вредны для общего состояния игры в большинстве случаев. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

1 button?) Do you continue to play E Prime at all? In the vast majority of modes, this is not 1 button. Dante needed to be able to label, position, which in the end is at least 3 buttons, unlike Octavia, Amber, Sarina, Jaira, etc.