What makes Dagath so forgettable to the community?

[Raarsi]

5 minutes ago, quxier said:

Ok, ok, I will stop with this face puns/idioms.

Yes, best not to get ahead of yourself on those.

I'm starting to think there's an issue with trying to tack frame releases onto major event stuff.  Not the first time that's happened either....

"Presenting The New War!  Oh, and here's a new frame for it."  Cali-who now?

"Happy Naberius Tenno!  Here's all the new stuff Daughter sells!  Oh, and a new frame to celebrate."

At this point, I think history repeats itself in this case just because it still generates revenue regardless of how the frame's popularity fares a couple of months after their release.  As long as the new frame isn't laughably worthless or interferes with the gameplay of other players, I think that's good enough for DE to be able to keep moving forward with more new frames that will make another chunk of money, and thus the cycle repeats.

[(PSN)rexis12]

20 minutes ago, L3512 said:

"That's not really synergy and more planned interactions."

What are you talking about. 

None of his abilities inherently get a bonus effect when other abilities are used. You don't get more energy for hitting enemies with his chains, you get it through headshots. Meanwhile to spread Doom in a reasonable radius you need to 2 and 1.

You don't get the 200% Crit Chance from hitting chained enemies, you get it through headshots which his 1 makes it easier to do while his 3 encourages it due to energy regen. Meanwhile to get the Crit Damage to the bonus you'd want, you need to Doom the enemies and furthermore you need to spread that Doom with Wyrd Scythe. 

How can you say it's planned interactions?

20 minutes ago, L3512 said:

2 depends on his 1 or Rakta dark dagger

The fact that you already have an option to not use his 1 for his 2 is already better in the:

20 minutes ago, L3512 said:

not completely dependent

Department. 

You get a marginal Crit Damage without Doom, your Doom targets so few people without Wyrd Scythe, you don't get Armor Strip without Doom, Wyrd Scythe just slows and Primes Viral without Doom.

I can't understand you seeing an even bigger locking of gameplay than Harrow 2 which just needs shields which you can get through so many other vectors, while Dagath is locked to needing her 3 and 2 or else her whole kit just falls apart. 

Edited April 24 by (PSN)rexis12

[AzureTerra]

17 hours ago, Prof-Dante said:

Released in a perfect state, not much tweaks or bug fixes

Then what is there to whine about if nothing needs changes? 

[L3512]

29 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

None of his abilities inherently get a bonus effect when other abilities are used. You don't get more energy for hitting enemies with his chains, you get it through headshots.

 

This is the issue, as you admit.

 

synergy

/ˈsɪnədʒi/

noun

noun: synergy; plural noun: synergies; noun: synergism; plural noun: synergisms

1. the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.

 

 

 

 

 

31 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

The fact that you already have an option to not use his 1 for his 2 is already better

Yes being locked to either Condemn, Pillage or Rakta dark dagger is fantastic.

 

33 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

You get a marginal Crit Damage without Doom, your Doom targets so few people without Wyrd Scythe, you don't get Armor Strip without Doom, Wyrd Scythe just slows and Primes Viral without Doom.

So the abilities aren't great without synergy? Big deal it's still an example of synergy that Harrow lacks.

[(PSN)rexis12]

3 minutes ago, L3512 said:

Yes being locked to either Condemn, Pillage or Rakta dark dagger is fantastic.

Or Augur Mods

Or Arcane Aegis. 

Or Shield Recharge Builds. 

Or Topaz Archon Shards. 

Meanwhile you're stuck with a good 'ol Doom and Grave Spirits forever. 

5 minutes ago, L3512 said:

So the abilities aren't great without synergy?

Her abilities are only at fraction of their value without player input. 

This is like saying that Renewal has synergy because of Hallowed Ground and Renewal, instead of it being a planned mechanic that arbitrarily limits an ability unless you press another button. 

22 minutes ago, L3512 said:

Big deal it's still an example of synergy that Harrow lacks.

I literally can't believe you can write that with a straight face. 

[Trollocaustic]

I think DE should seriously consider stop releasing new warframes after the 60th (whatever that entails) and switch focus to buffing or reworking frames that are underwhelming in terms of late-game viability. And by that I mean without band-aid helminth buffs. But that probably wont happen as new frame releases are essentially advertisements for new and veteran players alike to open their wallets and spend money due to the good ole FOMO syndrome.

[Karyst]

22 hours ago, Prof-Dante said:

Released in a perfect state, not much tweaks or bug fixes, no needed buffs or unnecessary nerfs.

very strong, very spooky.

what happened? I'm not asking for people to go crazy for her, but come on...I'm here trying to find new crazy potential builds for her and the most recent one is basically youtubers showcasing her abilities on release...

I get that from Qorvex because Qorvex kinda sucks to be honest, and not in the way that he's weak, just that he really is forgettable, all the hype went away and he's just another Warframe in my opinion.

but Dagath is still in my top three favorite Warframes right now, with Dante and Lavos being on top (no I will not hear anybody out) 

My experience: got her on release, figured out the min maxed nuke build , after about two days playing the same rotation to nuke got bored. From my experience she has anxious gameplay due to lack of hard CC that forces monitoring cool down of her 3. Perhaps infusing a hard CC over her 3 would allow for more relaxed gameplay .

[Chewarette]

On my side, it's clear she's fine balance-wise, but during her leveling I didn't find her fun like at all.

And for many frames it's like that, I see during the initial leveling with an all-around build if it looks fun to play. If yes, I invest a bit more time & research on it. If it didn't catch my interest during those 30 levels, I usually do not insist and bench them.

[ZhuoYuan9]

20小时前 , Stormandreas 说:

Dagath is a weird frame.

She is a mixed bag of wanting to be a caster, but then having stuff in her kit that also benefits being a (melee) weapons platform.

Her 4s damage is absurd, and the fact it armour strips. There were calls for nerfs on her 4th because of how insanely high the damage is.

The issue with Dagath, is building her. She's not only a pain in the ass to get, using the old Void Key system that many people don't want to engage in, but actually sorting a build for her requires really weird specifics.

E.g. to get her going as a caster, you want Citrines Subsume, then building for 286% strength to have Doom and Cavelry hit 100% in their effects . Like... that's a really specific number, and takes a chunk of resources to get there, not to mention Brief Respite and Catalyzing shields just to keep her shield gate up and going.

If you're making her a melee weapons platform.... I pray for you. She is then generally built as a health tank, with very low base armour. This puts her at having the 5th highest base health in the entire game, but the 2nd lowest base armour. That's a pretty bad mix ngl, and her weapon buffing is exclusive to Melee weapons.

Building her for both being a Caster and Melee buffer generally doesn't mix well in her kit.

 

She's just one of those "Good, but not amazing", "Does what she does, but others do it better", type frames.

If I want a specific nuking caster, I'd use:
Dante, Sevagoth, Saryn, Volt hell even Xaku.

If I want a specific melee buffer I'd use:
Gauss, Volt, Kullervo, Saryn or Voruna

She's a weird mixed bag.

"Does what she does, but others do it better",

 

very accurate

[quxier]

6 hours ago, L3512 said:

7 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

You get a marginal Crit Damage without Doom, your Doom targets so few people without Wyrd Scythe, you don't get Armor Strip without Doom, Wyrd Scythe just slows and Primes Viral without Doom.

So the abilities aren't great without synergy? Big deal it's still an example of synergy that Harrow lacks.

Abilities should be 1) good enough alone and 2) different than each other. Imagine saying this about weapons to kill EVERY ENEMY:

Quote

You need to headshot with primary. Proc X on enemy foot with secondary. Then finish it with melee.

I bet 99% players (except trolls/jokers) would say that would be horrible design. That's how Dagath works on high level.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 23.4.2024 um 12:12 schrieb C11H22O1:

People just don't talk about anything that isn't completely busted or insanely bad.

I do see people playing her in public though, besides me.

has good skills. But I don't find anything earth-shattering either. You have to play with it for a long time to come up with your own build. Because there are already unique combinations that suit your own style of play.

Only I prefer something like Nekros, Wisp or Wukong or Gunstation Saryn. and Warframe doesn't offer me anything special. I would rather play Citrine because their skills are already very good.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Trollocaustic:

I think DE should seriously consider stop releasing new warframes after the 60th (whatever that entails) and switch focus to buffing or reworking frames that are underwhelming in terms of late-game viability. And by that I mean without band-aid helminth buffs. But that probably wont happen as new frame releases are essentially advertisements for new and veteran players alike to open their wallets and spend money due to the good ole FOMO syndrome.

won't happen because they want people to farm something new all the time. And don't forget that it's all about platinum sales and getting as high online as possible. The rest hardly plays a role.

[WindShadow970]

9 hours ago, Xzorn said:

so don't have Dante yet

If you liked Citrine well Dante also meddles with status.

5 hours ago, Trollocaustic said:

I think DE should seriously consider stop releasing new warframes after the 60th (whatever that entails) and switch focus to buffing or reworking frames that are underwhelming in terms of late-game viability. And by that I mean without band-aid helminth buffs. But that probably wont happen as new frame releases are essentially advertisements for new and veteran players alike to open their wallets and spend money due to the good ole FOMO syndrome

If they do then something new has to come from elsewhere. Funnily enough most external Warframe advertising focuses on new areas or major story expansions.

[Stormandreas]

9 hours ago, L3512 said:

We have Melee Fortification now which is really nice for that scenario, hell it turns any frame into a tank for basic SP.

So then use that on almost any other frame and you get better results.

Health tanking though for SP is generally not great. Having your health exposed leaves you open to being oneshot and downed, which is why Shield gating is such a massive deal. Dagath does it incredibly well with Brief Respite+Catalysing shield, as her shield then goes all the way down to 50, meaning casting her 2, 3 or 4 when you're using Brief Respite only, will instantly restore all your shields, and thus, your 1.3s of shield gate.
With Brief Respite+2 Augur mods, all her abilities restore her shields completely.
That also means her shield gate is actually IMPROVED with Catalysing shields. Normally her shield gate is like... 1.25s or something like that and requires 250 shields to get back to that duration.

All this makes her caster setup more durable than the melee setup, but also more restrictive as is pretty natural with casters.

[Stormandreas]

10 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

While her whole kit is basically and effectively "Reduce enemy health by half" With how Doom functions, ultimately the whole point of her kit is to get increased Crit Damage from Grave Spirit which the double Crit Damage on Doomed Enemies emphasises.

You basically use her to get increased Crit Damage and Reduce Enemy health by 'X' amount depending on how much Strength you have.

It's not bad, Gyre's whole kit is 'Increase Critical Chance' she's just lucky enough that hers is Multiplicative, while Dagath is stuck is an Additive Crit Damage. 

It's really not...

The whole point of her kit is to use Grave Spirit as your protection, just incase you are gonna die (with added melee only CD)

Doom to get a weaker Kullervo 3

Wyrd Scythes for debuffing enemies so you do more damage

and then doing Rakhali's Cavalry to run them all down with massive damage+defence strip.

If you focus only on the CD from Grave sprit, you're missing the synergy in the entire rest of her kit. Don't get me wrong, Wyrd Scythes can be replaced with Fractured Blast any day, which works better with her passive to upkeep energy, and we have plenty of ways of getting Viral procs on enemies too, but Doom+Cavalry is stronger than any Doom+Run into melee setup.

Doom also doesn't reduce enemy health like so many are believing. If it's for the Viral procs, that increases the damage done to health, it doesn't decrease total health (was changed a while ago).
Even then, Doom only does Viral damage, not Viral status effects.

[deucich]

Dagath happened to be my second most played warframe in 2023 (according to anniversary letter), and I wouldn't call her forgettable.

3d ability puts her in an interesting place in terms of survivability. Essentially, you do all the same stuff to survive as other shield-gating frames, but a lot more relaxed in the process since you can't actually die most of the time (outside of that 25s cd window). It is a sweet spot between dulling invisibility\invincibility and immediate immanent death if I get distracted for a few sec. Her 3 also allows to dump mandatory otherwise vital sense from your gun, leaving a space to put something extra.

4th ability is not a bad armor strip for disruption and a nice way to dispatch off acolytes. Though I mainly used it just for the i-frames. Also on a bright side very low strength requirements (120 strength is usually enough to fully remove armor in one cast) allow much freedom in builds .

2d ability makes eximus units way more fragile than regular ones (stored damage from overguard bypasses armored health). It is also extra convenient for disruptions, since it's not dispelled by demolishers' nullifying pulses.

1st ability is unforgettable due to its annoying sound :D Also it made me close the distance all the time which I don't usually do all that much in a gunplay. It brought fun element to gameplay

Passive is better energize (because no cd), but for personal gain only. And that is miles better than almost any other passive so far.

Overall, a well-fit kit. Not as brokenly op as dante\voruna, not as clunky as citrine\kullervo. And I see people playing dagath fairly often. Probably more often than mirage, chroma, ember and qorvex altogether combined  (not even mentioning caliban, atlas, banshee. do those even exist?)

[Hayrack]

... Orrrrrrrr...

... She's so damn broken that people are carefully keeping her off the radars 🙃 ??

Edited April 24 by Hayrack

[WindShadow970]

5 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

(with added melee only CD)

It applies to all weapons, not only melee

[Xzorn]

7 hours ago, WindShadow970 said:

If you liked Citrine well Dante also meddles with status.

 

I'm like halfway to having him. I kinda burned through 5 years of content in 6 weeks. Some weapons are left.

I'm kinda swapping between Dragons Dogma 2 (buggy as hell), Path of Exile and Warframe.
Warframe is mostly just taking some hours to clear out weeklies then back to the others for now.

I was kinda confused looking at Dante and why they added a new stat "Status Vulnerability".
All his skill auto proc Slash and Status is already multiplicative. Just seems like a weird choice.

I do like Citrine though. DR stacking is highly underrated. I was recently testing Elite Arcamedia boss since it's the first non-joke boss at that level. I was testing with Rhino to see the kinda damage it does since it can actually hurt my Chroma. About 150k. Some of those are attacks you're supposed to dodge but I was curious.

Not like Rhino can die.

[Prof-Dante]

22 hours ago, AzureTerra said:

Then what is there to whine about if nothing needs changes? 

is all we have to do is whine? no crazy builds or overviews? no synergies or discussion topics?

I'm the type of player that wants to read more content about a certain character while playing them...it just make the experience much more engaging.

[L3512]

16 hours ago, quxier said:

Abilities should be 1) good enough alone and 2) different than each other. Imagine saying this about weapons to kill EVERY ENEMY:

I bet 99% players (except trolls/jokers) would say that would be horrible design. That's how Dagath works on high level.

That's the issue with Harrows 2, you can't cast it with energy for some arbitrary reason. That is not synergy it is dependence.

 

15 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

Health tanking though for SP is generally not great. Having your health exposed leaves you open to being oneshot and downed, which is why Shield gating is such a massive deal. Dagath does it incredibly well with Brief Respite+Catalysing shield, as her shield then goes all the way down to 50, meaning casting her 2, 3 or 4 when you're using Brief Respite only, will instantly restore all your shields, and thus, your 1.3s of shield gate.

Health tanking is fine for like 2 hours of SP, most people will only ever do that hence base SP.

[quxier]

26 minutes ago, L3512 said:

16 hours ago, quxier said:

Abilities should be 1) good enough alone and 2) different than each other. Imagine saying this about weapons to kill EVERY ENEMY:

I bet 99% players (except trolls/jokers) would say that would be horrible design. That's how Dagath works on high level.

That's the issue with Harrows 2, you can't cast it with energy for some arbitrary reason. That is not synergy it is dependence.

Ability requiring energy is not something weird. You convert shield using energy to X. That's not dependency. That's how abilities works in this game - abilities require energy to run. That's not even synergy. It's not like you can cast 2nd without energy and casting with energy yields different results.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I GENERALLY don't consider a frame to "exist" until their PRIME is out. I won't waste resources on something I'm going to be feeding to the Helminth anymore. There are few exceptions (Wisp being one, but now she's Prime, and Styanax.)

I don't like Dagath's lore, personally, either. I didn't find her particularly "fun" to play while ranking her up as fodder.

Some frames just click with certain people, feeding into the core ways they play the game, or aesthetics that resonate ... I've always loved Egyptian styled sci-fi things, akin to Stargate, and the weapon that is almost universal in the books I'm writing, is the dual bladed polearm... so combine them together with how Inaros' kit works, and I'm sold. Nothing has come close to feeling that good to use, for myself. A new frame has a HUGE uphill battle to force me to stop using Inaros. (I use other frames as "tools" to efficiently get specific tasks done, such as spy missions with Loki, Frost or Wisp for defense missions, etc... so a new frame that fills a "tool" role, will get used when the situation calls for it, but not as a go-to frame for just enjoying the game.)

[Morgana_Arcana]

On 2024-04-23 at 9:39 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

Not too much of a fan for fragile frames that are expected to melee with no direct way to improve effective survivability outside killing enemies first or using helminth to patch up the holes.

There's nothing about Dagath's design that "expects you to melee". She can whip out melee just like any other frame to kill something in front of her opportunistically, but there's nothing synergistic about specifically melee. She has one ability that moderately buffs all weapon types. That's it. Why are people talking about Dagath and melee? This makes no sense.

 

An additional note, I have good survivability on her with Health Conversion + Arcane Blessing + Synth Deconstruct. And I do get some incidental melee in. But she's not a "melee frame".

Edited April 25 by Morgana_Arcana

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, Morgana_Arcana said:

There's nothing about Dagath's design that "expects you to melee". She can whip out melee just like any other frame to kill something in front of her opportunistically, but there's nothing synergistic about specifically melee. She has one ability that moderately buffs all weapon types. That's it. Why are people talking about Dagath and melee? This makes no sense.

 

An additional note, I have good survivability on her with Health Conversion + Arcane Blessing + Synth Deconstruct. And I do get some incidental melee in. But she's not a "melee frame".

Actually , thats a fair point , why am i thinking of her as a melee frame .... she doesnt really have anything melee specific, 

I may have confused something about her signature weapons passive with her own passive, She is so forgettable for me that i didnt even get her passive right :D

You can definitely make her (or any other frame) tankier if you really want to spend the opportunity cost for it, there is no frame specific synergy when it comes to those three things. i can also just as easily use rest (helminth)+ arcane ultimatum + guardian on a pet to improve any frames survivability.

Again , i can only highlight my personal views as its more a matter of taste for me.