Augments that are neccesary shouldn't be augments, they should be reworks

[Void2258]

There has been a distressing trend lately to produce augments for warframes that fix base kit issues at the cost of a mod slot, rather than reworking the ability itself. Augments should be about adding optional functionality or alternate play styles. When an Augment becomes required for a frame to function effectively or constitute usability fixes, it's not "augmenting" anything and should just be folded into the base kit instead of costing people mod space. You can see the difference in the following examples:

Required augments:

• Gyre: Cathode Current - Her kit basically doesn't work well without this 
• Baruuk: Reactive Storm - The ability is not worth centering his entire kit on without this due to exalted weapon issues
• Hildryn: Blazing Pillage - Required to give her kit any reasonable damage (not helped by her 1 and 4 being essentially worthless)
• Equinox: Energy Transfer - Makes form switching not detrimental to a frame built on form switching
• Grendel: Gourmand - Allows for smooth use of kit
• Sevagoth: Dark Harvest-Shadow Haze - Needed for abilities other than Gloom to do anything.

Usability Augments:

• Garuda: Blending Talons - Literally just a tap enable at the cost of a mod slot
• Ash: Fatal Teleport - Does automatically what the player would do with 1 extra button when using the abilit

Actual Augments:

• Volt/Ember/Sayrn/Frost/Lavos: Elemental weapon mod - Adds weapon platform play to caster frames
• Nekros/Hydroid/Khora: Drop Enhancers - Adds loot frame gameplay
• Citrine Recrystalize/Nezha Divine Retribution: Adds spread nuke gameplay
• Mesa Mesa's Waltz/Mirage Prism Guard/Valkyr Enrage: Changes ult gameplay
• Quorvex Wrecking Wall/Banshee Sonic Fracture/mag Fracturing Crush: provides optional defense stripping
• Revenant Mesmer Shield/Gauss Thermal Transfer/Harrow Warding Thuribal: provides optional support gameplay
• Dagath Spectral Spirit/Kullervo Wrath of Ukko: Provides alternative gameplay loop
• Frost Icy Avalanche/Styanax Intrepid Stand/Ember Healing Flame: Enables Overguard tank Playstyle
• Exaclibur Umbra/Yareli/Nezha/Zephyr: Passive Deactivators - Let's players utilize the frame without undesirable passive

 

Edited August 27 by Void2258

[Xaero]

21 minutes ago, Void2258 said:

Exaclibur/Yareli/Nezha/Zephyr: Passive Deactivators - Let's players utilize the frame without undesirable passive

Since when did increased damage and attack speed for melee become undesirable?

[Void2258]

Umbra. Sorry, I never use base so I just think of him as Excalibur Prime and treat it like part of the frame passive.

Edited August 25 by Void2258

[AntifreezeUnder0]

56 minutes ago, Void2258 said:

• Grendel: Gourmand - Allows for smooth use of kit

 

grendels gourmand on 5 enemies is pointless since its not even energy/hp per second drain anymore. 

Pre-rework gourmand on other hand was a must.

[Waeleto]

59 minutes ago, Void2258 said:

• Exaclibur Umbra/Yareli/Nezha/Zephyr: Passive Deactivators - Let's players utilize the frame without undesirable passive

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DE, Let me remove Umbra's useless passive without having to waste a slot PLEASE

[(PSN)Sentiel]

6 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DE, Let me remove Umbra's useless passive without having to waste a slot PLEASE

I would very much like to also remove the passive from Sevagoth and Inaros, ideally without wasting a mod slot to do so.

[dwqrf]

Il y a 2 heures, Void2258 a dit :

There has been a distressing trend lately to produce augments for warframes

Caliban's augment where ? :(

[quxier]

3 hours ago, Void2258 said:

•  
• Grendel: Gourmand - Allows for smooth use of kit

Not true.

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

3 hours ago, Void2258 said:

There has been a distressing trend lately to produce augments for warframes

Caliban's augment where ? :(

wait for rework

3 hours ago, Void2258 said:

There has been a distressing trend lately to produce augments for warframes that fix base kit issues at the cost of a mod slot, rather than reworking the ability itself. Augments should be about adding optional functionality or alternate play styles. When an Augment becomes required for a frame to function effectively or constitute usability fixes, it's not "augmenting" anything and should just be folded into the base kit instead of costing people mod space. You can see the difference in the following examples:

+1

3 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Grendel

Old Catapult/Grendel. You couldn't move properly without augment. Now it's just nice. And it just gives 1/2 of what it says.

3 hours ago, Void2258 said:

•  
• Citrine Recrystalize/Sevagoth Dark Harvest-Shadow Haze/Nezha Divine Retribution: Adds spread nuke gameplay (Sevagoth augments should be combined though; takes too much space)

Sooooooo, Sevagoth's 1+2 combo doing nothing is ok? Shadow haze (+crit) is not required? Yeah. Something is wrong.

3 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Quorvex Wrecking Wallh: provides optional defense stripping

No. It "fixes" what Wall were supposed to do but is not doing. Not to mention Armor strip (full) is nerfed.

3 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Dagath Spectral Spirit: Provides alternative gameplay loop

Yeah, it changes from passive to ability. So, no, some part should be build in.

3 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Styanax Intrepid Stand: Enables Overguard tank Playstyle

It just gives you more defense...

3 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Actual Augments:

What about Atlas Rumbled: become Rumbler?

3 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Nekros/Hydroid/Khora: Drop Enhancers - Adds loot frame gameplay

3 hours ago, Void2258 said:

•  
• Citrine Recrystalize/Sevagoth Dark Harvest-Shadow Haze/Nezha Divine Retribution: Adds spread nuke gameplay (Sevagoth augments should be combined though; takes too much space)

3 hours ago, Void2258 said:

•  
• Quorvex Wrecking Wall/Banshee Sonic Fracture/mag Fracturing Crush: provides optional defense stripping

Lot's of it is not augments. It's more loot, more damage, more something.

 

 

 

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, quxier a dit :

wait for rework

I've been waiting... Caliban was released the 15/12/2021. Gyre was the next frame after him, released in 27/04/2022. Gyre got an augment the 15/02/2023 ; like a year after. Caliban's augment are going to be 3 years late. Are augment coming with the rework ? I don't think so...

[quxier]

6 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

I've been waiting... Caliban was released the 15/12/2021. Gyre was the next frame after him, released in 27/04/2022. Gyre got an augment the 15/02/2023 ; like a year after. Caliban's augment are going to be 3 years late. Are augment coming with the rework ? I don't think so...

I meant check rework before you say Caliboy need augment. And if you haven't heard, Caliboy is going to get rework soon. We have seen very small video.

[dwqrf]

il y a 12 minutes, quxier a dit :

I meant check rework before you say Caliboy need augment. And if you haven't heard, Caliboy is going to get rework soon. We have seen very small video.

Caliban doesn't need augment ! :D He is really strong as is. But I'm afraid he will get a somehow disguise nerf (like Grendel) to make sure his augment can be band aid... I've never wanted a Caliban rework, and I think if he never got any augment it's because his kit was too strong to begin with.

(Edit : yeah, you could slap any whatever augment on his 1 though, I would still helminth it away)

Edited August 25 by dwqrf

[BiancaRoughfin]

5 hours ago, Void2258 said:

 

• Exaclibur Umbra/Yareli/Nezha/Zephyr: Passive Deactivators - Let's players utilize the frame without undesirable passive

 

Not all players deem these passives as "Undesirable" , i my self love Zephyr's floatiness and take great advantage of it in missions.

I think DE should have made Mods to deactivate these passives but instead, add a Toggle to their Modding UI so players can turn off these effects if they so desire.

[Void2258]

4 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Not all players deem these passives as "Undesirable" , i my self love Zephyr's floatiness and take great advantage of it in missions.

I think DE should have made Mods to deactivate these passives but instead, add a Toggle to their Modding UI so players can turn off these effects if they so desire.

Which is why they are not in the "make it a rework" section, They are examples of good augments.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

I meant check rework before you say Caliboy need augment. And if you haven't heard, Caliboy is going to get rework soon. We have seen very small video.

Caliban doesn't need augment ! :D He is really strong as is. But I'm afraid he will get a somehow disguise nerf (like Grendel) to make sure his augment can be band aid... I've never wanted a Caliban rework, and I think if he never got any augment it's because his kit was too strong to begin with.

(Edit : yeah, you could slap any whatever augment on his 1 though, I would still helminth it away)

Strong, doesn't mean good. His 1st is not great (and it seems that they don't feel like making it better and they just remove (most of it)). 2nd throw enemies around and is weak. 3rd doesn't work when you don't have shield. 4th is okeish. Passive is bad. there not big synergies.

Same for Hydroid. It's stronger now but the lost of one ability & passive makes it less interesting.

[Voltage]

I agree with OP, but the way augments have been released are often just Warframe kit power. Very few augments are like Assimilate. Most augments just add more functionality to the ability, not change the way the ability behaves to the point where it changes the way the Warframe is used with that augment on.

Edited August 25 by Voltage

[dwqrf]

il y a 44 minutes, quxier a dit :

Strong, doesn't mean good. His 1st is not great (and it seems that they don't feel like making it better and they just remove (most of it)). 2nd throw enemies around and is weak. 3rd doesn't work when you don't have shield. 4th is okeish. Passive is bad. there not big synergies.

Same for Hydroid. It's stronger now but the lost of one ability & passive makes it less interesting.

2 has a slighlty higer power ratio as Roar and double dip ; doesn't throw away important targets (eximii/lich/boss).
3rd can be started up with Augur/Brief Respite ; not even considering high aggro which is equal to damage avoidance ; as Dante's Paragrimms.
4 is a lingering aoe defense strip, which can be cast even before the foes appears/come.
Passive affect everything in affinity range, including companions, archwing, railjack...

1 is bad and can be helminthed away for Roar/Nourish ; while the first one make insane ultra dipping with 2, and the second affect summons for perma aoe stagger + viral spread.

That look pretty good to me.


(Edit : anyways, that's not the subject. I don't think Caliban needs any augment ; because I think he is fine as he is ; But I would like him to have augments still, because you know, no frames should be forgotten)

Edited August 25 by dwqrf

[Joezone619]

Peaceful Provocation, Rift Torrent, Capacitance, Chilling Globe, Chaos Sphere, Seeking Shuriken, even Ulfrun's Endurance are all augments that are borderline required for any build on those frames which see use in their respective abilities.

Why not free us up the mod slot DE and either
A) make a dedicated slot for augments. (with the added perk of no capacity taken)
or
B) just fuse these augments with their abilities.

Either way is fine with me.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

 

2 has a slighlty higer power ratio as Roar and double dip ; doesn't throw away important targets (eximii/lich/boss).

Comparing to roar?

But it throws everything else and eximus without overguard.

You don't need to recast it.

2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

3rd can be started up with Augur/Brief Respite

You can even restore energy with Brief & co. That doesn't make ability ok. Jade's at least has 10% & shield recharge delay reduction. Caliban have flat 25 shield per summon. So 150 energy for 75 shield/second vs 50 energy for 10% shield & delay.

2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

not even considering high aggro which is equal to damage avoidance ; as Dante's Paragrimms.

You know, maybe. In simulacrum it takes lot of agro. In real game that I've tried summons are in different room, I'm without shield and taking damage.

2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

4 is a lingering aoe defense strip, which can be cast even before the foes appears/come.

Xaku has lingering AoE defense strip as well. Is it great? It depends if you are sitting in one room. When I'm moving, slow armor strip like Xaku's or Caliban's are not great. I've used STyanax' (pretty spammy but nice). Now I'm using Jade's Orphan's eyes. Both are less energy hungry for moving style.

2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Passive affect everything in affinity range, including companions, archwing, railjack...

Ok. Let's make another passive that affects everything doing damage (for simplicity). Every damage, on 15 second cooldown, causes to play "laugh sound". Is it useful? Not very much BUT IT WORKS ON EVERYTHING.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, dwqrf said:

2 has a slighlty higer power ratio as Roar and double dip

Double dip in what sense? 

[dwqrf]

Il y a 2 heures, quxier a dit :

Comparing to roar?

But it throws everything else and eximus without overguard.

You don't need to recast it.

You know, maybe. In simulacrum it takes lot of agro. In real game that I've tried summons are in different room, I'm without shield and taking damage.

So you know, again, Roar and sentient wrath aren't exclusives. And i've never seen anyone that cares about trash mobs, until now.

Il y a 3 heures, quxier a dit :

You can even restore energy with Brief & co. That doesn't make ability ok. Jade's at least has 10% & shield recharge delay reduction. Caliban have flat 25 shield per summon. So 150 energy for 75 shield/second vs 50 energy for 10% shield & delay.

You know, maybe. In simulacrum it takes lot of agro. In real game that I've tried summons are in different room, I'm without shield and taking damage.

Does jade Shield generation also do damage and damage avoidance ? Why do you need recharge delay if you can kick start it ?

Also, sorry, i'm not a simulacrum warrior and I survive just fine in any endgame content. So maybe it's just a skill issue.

Il y a 3 heures, quxier a dit :

Xaku has lingering AoE defense strip as well. Is it great? It depends if you are sitting in one room. When I'm moving, slow armor strip like Xaku's or Caliban's are not great. I've used STyanax' (pretty spammy but nice). Now I'm using Jade's Orphan's eyes. Both are less energy hungry for moving style.

Yeah, I tried styanax Shield bash and ophanims eyes, both are pretty bad spell if sitting in one room. Your point ? Both have no effective range using you as a centre effective point. And I don't know why you'd need to defense strip trash mobs while moving thought them. But you really want to compare them ? Does jade, xaku, or styanax have a multiplicative damage spell as Roar ; and defense strip ; and damage reduction to self and allies ; and Shield generation ; altogether in their base kit ? Nah they don't, and that's the combinaison of all the meta tools together that make Caliban pretty busted, not one individually extracted from the rest. Not expecting you to understand. It's pretty much random hate at this point. I know why players thinks Caliban is 'bad' with people like you hating so hard for no reasons. You can't let people enjoy things, especially if they have a different playstyle than you.

 

Il y a 3 heures, quxier a dit :

Ok. Let's make another passive that affects everything doing damage (for simplicity). Every damage, on 15 second cooldown, causes to play "laugh sound". Is it useful? Not very much BUT IT WORKS ON EVERYTHING.

At this point, I have to seriously reconsider your knowledge of the game : A mod already does that.

And giving 50% damage reduction to every single thing that doesn't have access to damage reduction is really strong.

Have you ever seen a new player buying Caliban day one and biaising the difficulty of the game for himself and all his friends, at no cost, through the whole star chart and beyond, by just being here ? I did, and I found it pretty strong. Another one bought xaku and never been able to be any relevant due to a really poor early game energy economy.

[PollexMessier]

I would argue Mesa's waltz is a mandatory mod. Locking yourself in place can be an instant death sentence at higher levels.

The inability to move with un-augmented peacemakers is literally a fatal flaw.

[Squick]

15 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

I would argue Mesa's waltz is a mandatory mod. Locking yourself in place can be an instant death sentence at higher levels.

The inability to move with un-augmented peacemakers is literally a fatal flaw.

Meh, I've hit level cap in SP Circuit with Mesa without it. Good positioning and keeping up your #3 can keep you alive just fine.

[quxier]

8 hours ago, dwqrf said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Comparing to roar?

But it throws everything else and eximus without overguard.

You don't need to recast it.

You know, maybe. In simulacrum it takes lot of agro. In real game that I've tried summons are in different room, I'm without shield and taking damage.

So you know, again, Roar and sentient wrath aren't exclusives

What you mean by exclusives?

8 hours ago, dwqrf said:

 And i've never seen anyone that cares about trash mobs, until now.

At this point I don't care about Eximus as well. Before that level it's different.

8 hours ago, dwqrf said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

You can even restore energy with Brief & co. That doesn't make ability ok. Jade's at least has 10% & shield recharge delay reduction. Caliban have flat 25 shield per summon. So 150 energy for 75 shield/second vs 50 energy for 10% shield & delay.

You know, maybe. In simulacrum it takes lot of agro. In real game that I've tried summons are in different room, I'm without shield and taking damage.

Does jade Shield generation also do damage and damage avoidance ?

With one ability? She does 3 things:

- Strength

- Shield stuff for probably all allied units (mechs are weird)

- Damage buff (for weapons afair)

The thing is you have to pick one. And Strength is meh.

8 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Why do you need recharge delay if you can kick start it ?

I can and I probably do (I think I have one mod, I'm not sure). The thing with Jade is more useful without Augur & co.

8 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Also, sorry, i'm not a simulacrum warrior and I survive just fine in any endgame content. So maybe it's just a skill issue.

I bet with all this extra mods & stuff you can survive. I could this as well. No skill needed. Just spam abilities & such.

You can survive with everything. Other frames have it easier.

8 hours ago, dwqrf said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Xaku has lingering AoE defense strip as well. Is it great? It depends if you are sitting in one room. When I'm moving, slow armor strip like Xaku's or Caliban's are not great. I've used STyanax' (pretty spammy but nice). Now I'm using Jade's Orphan's eyes. Both are less energy hungry for moving style.

Yeah, I tried styanax Shield bash and ophanims eyes, both are pretty bad spell if sitting in one room. Your point ? Both have no effective range using you as a centre effective point

I don't sit in one room except Defense-like missions. Maybe you are camper and it's fine with it but DE isn't.

8 hours ago, dwqrf said:

And I don't know why you'd need to defense strip trash mobs while moving thought them.

It's good to armor strip everything. Nowadays it's not so great (recent armor strip nerf) but still useful.

8 hours ago, dwqrf said:

? Does jade, xaku, or styanax have a multiplicative damage spell as Roar ; and defense strip ; and damage reduction to self and allies ; and Shield generation ; altogether in their base kit ?

Xaku? If you want to go with boring route:

- 75% damage evasion with 4th

- 4th slows everything up to 100% (enemies just moves head, it's funny), however it's spammy so not that useful

- Xaku/2 guns scale with enemy levels (I don't remember exact details)

- Xaku have armor strip

- So Xaku/2 just kill everything armor stripped (at least used to)

- You can mind control enemies (can be killed by teammates)

If you want to go less boring route:

- 1st void status have CC feature - just use some AoE weapon

 

Jade?

- Can provide shield regen, shield recharge delay and overshield to allies within range

- Yes, she have armor/shield strip (like Caliboy) & slowness

- Can heal allies (1st)

- can revive allies from far away

- yes, her damage buff to weapons (?) is weaker than Roar but it works on all enemies, not only one that Caliban marks

 

8 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Nah they don't, and that's the combinaison of all the meta tools together that make Caliban pretty busted, not one individually extracted from the rest. Not expecting you to understand. It's pretty much random hate at this point. I know why players thinks Caliban is 'bad' with people like you hating so hard for no reasons. You can't let people enjoy things, especially if they have a different playstyle than you.

Close enough, imho. So no, Caliban is not that busted. It works if you mod it & use in certain mission.

And enjoy it how much you like. I don't mind people liking Yareli's Merulina. But at least say that it limits you a lot. That kind of thing.

9 hours ago, dwqrf said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Ok. Let's make another passive that affects everything doing damage (for simplicity). Every damage, on 15 second cooldown, causes to play "laugh sound". Is it useful? Not very much BUT IT WORKS ON EVERYTHING.

At this point, I have to seriously reconsider your knowledge of the game : A mod already does that.

Yes, mod does this (not sure if it counts teammate's kills). I had it on some build. However there is difference here: I do it myself. I already know that this mod is just doing something silly and I'm fine with it.

9 hours ago, dwqrf said:

And giving 50% damage reduction to every single thing that doesn't have access to damage reduction is really strong.

Have you ever seen a new player buying Caliban day one and biaising the difficulty of the game for himself and all his friends, at no cost, through the whole star chart and beyond, by just being here ? I did, and I found it pretty strong. Another one bought xaku and never been able to be any relevant due to a really poor early game energy economy.

*facepalm* Lots of things are strong at low level. Why person that bought Xaku couldn't buy few mods? Oh right, because we are selecting what you can and what you cannot. You know what fully moded Xaku can do? Just remove most enemies. Or you know what? Use status with Void proc (e.g. Nukor) and make close to 100% damage reduction (there are probably some units that bypass void status at low level).

It's funny how you talk about "not carrying about trash mobs" but when we are talking about 50% damage reduction you go to that trash mobs. We are talking about later content. Caliban is from Narmer bounties. That should tell you something about its base power.

 

 

[dwqrf]

Il y a 9 heures, dwqrf a dit :

But you really want to compare them ? Does jade, xaku, or styanax have a multiplicative damage spell as Roar ; and defense strip ; and damage reduction to self and allies ; and Shield generation ; altogether in their base kit ? Nah they don't, and that's the combinaison of all the meta tools together that make Caliban pretty busted, not one individually extracted from the rest. Not expecting you to understand.

 

il y a 25 minutes, quxier a dit :

Xaku? If you want to go with boring route:

- 75% damage evasion with 4th

- 4th slows everything up to 100% (enemies just moves head, it's funny), however it's spammy so not that useful

- Xaku/2 guns scale with enemy levels (I don't remember exact details)

- Xaku have armor strip

- So Xaku/2 just kill everything armor stripped (at least used to)

- You can mind control enemies (can be killed by teammates)

If you want to go less boring route:

- 1st void status have CC feature - just use some AoE weapon

Jade?

- Can provide shield regen, shield recharge delay and overshield to allies within range

- Yes, she have armor/shield strip (like Caliboy) & slowness

- Can heal allies (1st)

- can revive allies from far away

- yes, her damage buff to weapons (?) is weaker than Roar but it works on all enemies, not only one that Caliban marks

Yup. Right, I made my point, you can't get it.
 

il y a 26 minutes, quxier a dit :

*facepalm*

Indeed.
 

il y a 27 minutes, quxier a dit :

It's funny how you talk about "not carrying about trash mobs" but when we are talking about 50% damage reduction you go to that trash mobs.

I didn't know Eximii and bosses were immuned to the effect of damage reduction ! Learning every day more warframe logic with you !

You are just a hater following a hate-train without being able to form your own opinion. Bye.

[quxier]

53 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

It's funny how you talk about "not carrying about trash mobs" but when we are talking about 50% damage reduction you go to that trash mobs.

I didn't know Eximii and bosses were immuned to the effect of damage reduction ! Learning every day more warframe logic with you !

You are just a hater following a hate-train without being able to form your own opinion. Bye.

I'm talking about 1 thing and you are answering about another. Blocked. bye