Tonkor Balancing (Nerf) discussion..

[Currilicious]

38 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

pretty thin argument, with due respect

killing yourself with a weapon is fun, when you're playing a mob bot shooter where dozens of bots rush into your face every mission.   

you have an interesting concept of fun (which is most probably NOT shared by the vast majority of players)

Definitely not shared by me.

Tonkor is fine in my books so I would disagree to any nerfs.

I'm a firm believer of live and let live. If I don't like a weapon I simply won't use it. Other people can use what they want.

Besides, I hate seeing stuff gimped so bad, it's basically removing another fun factor from the game.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Alright, how bout something constructive.

• Instead of self-damage Tonkor would have multipliers based on how it's used.
• If people are using it like a shotgun, base damage only (after a reduction of course).
• If they're using bank shots, they get bonus points.
• And un-detonated grenades lose potency as time goes on so there's no "durp I just killed 30 guys from a grenade I fired 3 minutes ago".

Edited May 13, 2016 by (PS4)Tactless_Ninja

[Valiant]

2 hours ago, clemza said:

I do use it that way, i do like to walk on the bullets to detonate the explosion myself and jump :l

So for me it would ruin it.

 

Unsurprising. One of the minority.

As I said, barely anyone uses it for that and it's a bit of a novelty. To be frank, I'd also say you'd get over it rather quickly. It's not a strong enough reason for it to not self-damage.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Naith

[--F--NerevarCM]

44 minutes ago, (XB1)KingOfDaAwesome said:

In a devstream last year, this question popped up and they said that every weapon is abled to be primed.

No, they said all warframes can be primed. They never said anything about weapons.

Edited May 13, 2016 by -SDM-NerevarCM

[(PSN)robotwars7]

3 hours ago, Maicael said:

I'd say remove crit/status from it, lower the MR requirement to 3 and make it a new player launcher that won't kill them while they learn to use launchers. (Build requirements would also have to be adjusted as well)

this'll do. and the Tonkor is a Grineer weapon, Grineer weapons cannot be primed.

[--F--NerevarCM]

42 minutes ago, Aetherial_Enigma said:

Wrong. Only TENNO items can get primed. the only exceptions are the Braton, Lato and Latron

Lato and Latron are Tenno weapons, only Braton is a Corpus manufactured weapon, but made from a ancient Orokin design.

[clemza]

1 minute ago, Naith said:

Unsurprising. One of the minority.

As I said, barely anyone uses it for that. To be frank, I'd also say you'd get over it rather quickly. It's not a strong enough reason for it not self-damage.

As it push you away your not taking "self-damages", maybe that is the reason DE took and that explain why there is only really low self-damages with the tonkor.

I was using the penta before, but i really do like to jump with the tonkor, maybe i am alone, but i am here :c

[Paradoxbomb]

Personally, I think the major issue doesn't lie with the Tonkor itself, but rather the way criticals and headshots interact. Basically a normal headshot doubles your damage while a critical headshot quapruples it on top of whatever the crit-multiple increases your damage by, which means a weapon can go from hitting reasonable to obscene amounts of damage on a crit. Combine that with the Tonkor, a weapon that can achieve 100% crit chance and has a massive AoE that autotargets enemies' heads and you have one of the strongest weapons in the game. And you can't even kill yourself with it in one-shot to boot!

If you ask me, what DE should do is remove this x4 multiplier on critical headshot and instead give weapons their own unique headshot multipliers. This would bring weapons that abuse the crit-headshot system in line while benefiting slower weapons like sniper rifles. That said, maybe the Tonkor could use some further adjusting even after the fact, but removing it's ability to "snipe" all targets in a 15m radius would be a good start.

[TheBrsrkr]

10 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Lato and Latron are Tenno weapons, only Braton is a Corpus manufactured weapon, but made from a ancient Orokin design.

......... Which was the Braton Prime. 

[--F--NerevarCM]

3 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

......... Which was the Braton Prime. 

Yep

[Magneu]

Ahem.

Already a 47 page thread on the issue. Although, a separate thread for a general consensus check would be good. 

Problem with polls is people don't have to explain their votes, so people who hate Tonkor "just because" would vote against it, and people who love Tonkor for its OPness would simply vote for it because they like being OP.

Mathematically, Tonkor is best. General usage against sortie levels and higher enemies, Tonkor is best. Compared to sniper damage, Tonkor is best. Compared to all other explosives, Tonkor is best. Plenty of arguments against it (these ones just brush the surface).

[Kuva_Kebab]

When a weapon is undeniably the best in the game, and nobody bothers arguing it, then said weapons needs adjusting.

Honestly I'd be fine with its stupid damage if it could do that damage to its user.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

1 hour ago, NightElve said:

Nerf? i was told forums are the true cancer of warframe? it ain't a joke now, inc crit multiplier and chance for all i care, we want fun in the game, for all of you obsessed with balancing, why not ask DE to add a weapon nerf mod so that you can nerf your own weapon??! 90% of the players are completely against this idea, i dont know which elite group this is, that is know taking a major in Warframe, that they are more concerned with nerfing than having fun, go play with the other a billion weapons that DE has provided instead of ruining the game for others, you can also remove your crit mods from your Tonkor it might help nerf it

 for a fact i do not use a tonkor at all, i personally do not find it a fun match with my play style, so i dont use it. i use a variety of weapons as i want to develop as a gamer

imo a nerf doesnt mean to destroy the weapons capabilities, but to adjust ait according to game mechanics , it could improve the gun better then it currently is makign it scale for instace, and for the fact that many like one shot weapons is not the issue i see tenno

i think weapons in general require a scaling factor, the fact the tonkor is used by many is due to its destructive capabilities , even stripped down one, no mods lvl 0 can take out a lvl 100+ enemy rather effectively and that should be realistically reflected with other weapons as well so we have some variety. 

i do not question or see and issue with your  fun  or others, but for new players its habit of play i see repeatedly happening 

recently i was training 5 new players from 0 rnk to 10 rnk , they all eventually got the tonkor and now use nothing else ...at all, and have no ..desire to use anything else as one put it "why would i use anything else, when i can one shot any enemy?"

there is no variety or interest to progress or try other weapons. they eventually get bored and stop playing all together, 3 of the 5 have already quite as they are no longer "challenged" by the game

that is an issue as i see it. 

[Apoc001]

concerning the "Grineer" + "Prime" issue, I'm just going to paste what I posted on a previous discussion:

there is a loophole through the "only Tenno weapons can be primes", and that is if said weapon is a reproduction of an existing Orokin weapon, with the Braton being the example

however the Grineer are very xenophobic, hating anything that is not Grineer, possibly to the extent of even hating anything not Grineer made or of Grineer design

so while this loophole can apply to any weapon not a Tenno design, it is highly unlikely this loophole would apply to Tonkor, when no other non-Tenno design has ever been primed since Braton

[Hayabusa97]

My idea is to buff all the weapons to be up to par while reducing the crit chance and crit multiplier on the Tonkor to 25% and 2.0x respectively.

 

Might not be the best idea, but I'm not a programmer, I'm just some 19 yr old with too much time on his hands.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

1 hour ago, Magneu said:

Mathematically, Tonkor is best. General usage against sortie levels and higher enemies, Tonkor is best. Compared to sniper damage, Tonkor is best. Compared to all other explosives, Tonkor is best. Plenty of arguments against it (these ones just brush the surface).

imho, tonkor being the best is a good argument to use it, although tonkor is quirky and does have multiple down sides. 

but, for the sake of argument, say that the forces of evil are successful and tonkor gets nerfed.  

now another weapon is now the best, say the SS or torrid.  

should this weapon now be nerfed because it is the best?

and if they are nerfed, another weapon is the best, and should it be nerfed?

you want to nerf a weapon because it is the best?  isn't that an endless nonsensical argument?  some weapon will always be best.  

perhaps you should just enjoy the weapons that are the best, or don't enjoy them if you don't like them.  but allow other players to enjoy them. 

you have the choice NOT to play weapons you don't like, but if you advocate for massive nerfs to popular weapons, you're advocating to take THAT right to chose away from other players. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by DeadlyPeanutt

[Magneu]

Just now, DeadlyPeanutt said:

Slippery Slope fallacy

Again, I have no problem with one weapon being the technical best, although there should be certain downsides to its power; if the raw damage was reduced and some self-damage added, the small magazine and detonate-on-contact grenades would become an actual downside that matters for the Tonkor. I would be just fine with it then, if it did only a bit more damage than a Secura Penta; less control, more damage. Good trade-offs.

Synoid Simulor is just silly with certain frames, has a huge prominence in game (no, being used by lots of people is not a valid argument to defend it), and just encourages blind spamming. It needs...IDK. Its own thread.

I don't know why you keep arguing the Torrid is as strong or stronger than the Tonkor. It's status/DoT in a tiny area that is completely static after launch. It's only every applicable in sewer-camp squads (gross), or on a single doorway or hallway. Why not just use a Tonkor and blow up anything that walks through the door?

 

You cannot deny that, by the numbers, the Tonkor is the best. It's a verifiable fact, proven by myself and others. You can argue that downsides make up for that power, except it (a) doesn't have a downside inherent to its class (self-damage), and/or (b) has the downside to a much lesser degree (reload, accuracy (including with HC), etc).

If the Tonkor was 5-10% better than everything else? I would hardly care. Player weapon-choice is less impacted. But its current state, where it can rather easily hit 97% of the damage of a dedicated single target sniper (Rubico) in the largest AOE of all explosives with no downsides? 

That irks me just a little. Not even to mention that people using it impacts my Strun Wraith/melee playstyle, as everything is blowing up as I get into range (ever try using a Nikana Prime in a Tonkor squad? The try-hard is real to keep up). When the umpteenth squad blow up in front of me at level 100 and Timmy Tonkor goes sailing past with hardly a care in the world...it gets a bit old.

[Magneu]

3 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

4.  that's absurd.  torrid has the highest damage output in the game, far outstripping tonkor, and it has absolutely no self damage.  

This is too great. Do I even need to explain how ridiculous this statement is? You could maybe argue highest damage output if your time frame is a couple days, enemies stay in one spot, and even then, my money is on the Tonkor.

[--F--NerevarCM]

7 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

 

you have the choice NOT to play weapons you don't like, but if you advocate for massive nerfs to popular weapons, you're advocating to take THAT right to chose away from other players. 

If DE decides to put Star Wars skins in Warframe, it would brake all the imersion I have playing, but if I do what you are saying, I just dont use it and forget it existed, then I enter a mission and the other 3 players are using the skin. Now I dont have any choice but to play with them with no immersion because they have the RIGHT to use it.

"You have the choice NOT to play weapons you don't like" Yeah I dont want to use the Tonkor but the other 3 players in the mission are using it and exploding everything in the map. If unbalancing and OPness means FUN, I dont understand why games like Marvel Vs Capcom 3 died because of it. It was ridiculous, completly broken, 50 playable characters and 10 had infinite combos. So much FUN...

[-BM-Mitz]

3 hours ago, NightElve said:

it's so.. good and ive been using it till MR 20 let people enjoy their weapons, we are not pursuing degrees in warframe, guys have been saying Forums are the true cancer of DE and now i find it very true, just because some few guys want a Tonkor nerf because its being widly used and it's accessible, and this group represents 2% of game population i suggest ignoring this few, if players have an issue with a weapon concerns will be raised in game, Forum guys remember warframe is a game(not a course being offered!!), get other weapons to play with if it's an issue for you finding out that other players enjoy one weapon type, then you can use the other billion weapons in the game

 

There's HUGE megathread on this, it's not a small % but I see your point. You want to leave people to limit themselves to a weapon since it's sooo gooood cause it doesn't hurt anybody else. That's fine and all but this game lives off of variety and different things to try and have fun with. It's just not good for the game :/ The true cancer in the forums is people who ignorantly brush off others without trying to understand the issue at hand like you.

In any case, you seem to be fixated on your opinion that this is a minor issue from a few people so I'm not gonna continue this conversation, it's a waste of time. Just know over 19,000 people have been discussing this on one thread alone and the vast majority agree that some change needs to happen.

[--F--NerevarCM]

7 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

 

you have the choice NOT to play weapons you don't like, but if you advocate for massive nerfs to popular weapons, you're advocating to take THAT right to chose away from other players. 

If DE decides to put Star Wars skins in Warframe, it would brake all the imersion I have playing, but if I do what you are saying, I just dont use it and forget it existed, then I enter a mission and the other 3 players are using the skin. Now I dont have any choice but to play with them with no immersion because they have the RIGHT to use it.

"You have the choice NOT to play weapons you don't like" Yeah I dont want to use the Tonkor but the other 3 players in the mission are using it and exploding everything in the map. If unbalancing and OPness means FUN, I dont understand why games like Marvel Vs Capcom 3 died because of it. It was ridiculous, completly broken, 50 playable characters and 10 had infinite combos. So much FUN...

[Currilicious]

15 minutes ago, Magneu said:

Again, I have no problem with one weapon being the technical best, although there should be certain downsides to its power; if the raw damage was reduced and some self-damage added, the small magazine and detonate-on-contact grenades would become an actual downside that matters for the Tonkor. I would be just fine with it then, if it did only a bit more damage than a Secura Penta; less control, more damage. Good trade-offs.

Synoid Simulor is just silly with certain frames, has a huge prominence in game (no, being used by lots of people is not a valid argument to defend it), and just encourages blind spamming. It needs...IDK. Its own thread.

I don't know why you keep arguing the Torrid is as strong or stronger than the Tonkor. It's status/DoT in a tiny area that is completely static after launch. It's only every applicable in sewer-camp squads (gross), or on a single doorway or hallway. Why not just use a Tonkor and blow up anything that walks through the door?

 

You cannot deny that, by the numbers, the Tonkor is the best. It's a verifiable fact, proven by myself and others. You can argue that downsides make up for that power, except it (a) doesn't have a downside inherent to its class (self-damage), and/or (b) has the downside to a much lesser degree (reload, accuracy (including with HC), etc).

If the Tonkor was 5-10% better than everything else? I would hardly care. Player weapon-choice is less impacted. But its current state, where it can rather easily hit 97% of the damage of a dedicated single target sniper (Rubico) in the largest AOE of all explosives with no downsides? 

That irks me just a little. Not even to mention that people using it impacts my Strun Wraith/melee playstyle, as everything is blowing up as I get into range (ever try using a Nikana Prime in a Tonkor squad? The try-hard is real to keep up). When the umpteenth squad blow up in front of me at level 100 and Timmy Tonkor goes sailing past with hardly a care in the world...it gets a bit old.

His point is valid in this setting and it isn't a fallacy.

If you intend to label someone's opinion, please do take context into account.

There are already existing items, levels, mechanics across multiple games that went that route and the end result isn't pretty.

And, in a game that is primarily PVE and a totally optional PVP, what would it matter for a weapon to be powerful?

If it's comparative power with other weapons you're concerned about, then propose to have those buffed.

Now, if you argue about how this would lead to a power creep guess which side of the slope is slippery now?

[Phatose]

The main problem with "Buffy everything else" is that after buffing everything else, then the enemies need a buff.  Buffing the enemies is functionally the same as nerfing every weapon.  You end up at the same spot as if you had just nerfed the problematic weapon - except with a lot more work, and a lot more opportunities for things to go wrong.

It's just far more efficient with dev's time to nerf the weapons that are out of line with the others.

The main problem with overbalanced weapons in a PvE progress based game like this one is that it hurts diversity of play among the players who do play for progress.  Not using the OP weapon means slower progress.  As a general rule, players shouldn't be given a choice between fast progress and variety as it tends to make the game stale.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

10 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

And, in a game that is primarily PVE and a totally optional PVP, what would it matter for a weapon to be powerful?

If it's comparative power with other weapons you're concerned about, then propose to have those buffed.

Now, if you argue about how this would lead to a power creep guess which side of the slope is slippery now?

Wouldn't powercreeping every weapon in the game make a game boring?
What would you do if after a few hours in the game you received a button to call in a nuke every 5 seconds obliterating every enemies on the map to complete the objective?
And following that train of thought, what if you had a machine gun that could become just as powerful as that nuke button just to make them "Comparatively fair"
But you're right, in a game where enemies are AI, what's the problem if you have a powerful weapon, it just makes the game easier for everyone. ( Notice Sarcasm Please. )

So with that said, why don't you just throw away that nuke button into the void to make sure it never comes back again and just stick with a normal machine gun that doesn't fire a beam of magic missiles and unicorn to kill your enemies.

[(XBOX)R0T IN]

If they nerf this or touch this weapon at all i will officially be done with warframe..