Tonkor Balancing (Nerf) discussion..

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)R0T IN said:

If they nerf this or touch this weapon at all i will officially be done with warframe.. 

Why does that even matter? There's like a massive amount of other weapons, are you saying that you'll be done with warframe because you won't be able to deal half a million damage by doing nothing anymore? That's not a rational way of thinking.

[--F--NerevarCM]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)R0T IN said:

If they nerf this or touch this weapon at all i will officially be done with warframe.. 

then please, leave now and save us from your drama.

[TotallyLagging]

Tonkor is bouncy as hell and explodes on contact, self-damage will only make it frustrating to use. Self-damage for other explosives should be rebalanced to Tonkor level.

Reduce base damage & crit multiplier, and fix auto-headshot that makes the Tonkor deal 4x more damage than it should. Now it's still a powerful weapon, but it's not something that overshadows every single weapon in the game.

[(PSN)bonateIIo]

One word "Excalibur"

[AurumandArgentum]

So, I don't use the Tonkor at all, I have on the other hand seen it be used in conjunction with some pretty BS things that make it uber easy to do anything

Ex: I went on a T4S with my mates, I had to go to the washroom so I found myself a dead end and used Tectonics on the door so no enemies could come in whilst I went to the washroom, when I came back I saw my friend with a Loki bouncing grenades off the top of the door and into the crowd on the other end and when we needed life support he just went invis grabbed live support and left, we were there for nearly a hour before we D/C'd due to host issues, we could have gone on for ages with that strategy.

I dont know what this gun needs

I don't care what happens to this gun

Something needs to happen to this gun because this was ridiculous and all my weapons were basically just rubbish whilst he was obliterating crowds.

My other point is that no matter what happens to it, it will somehow overcome it as my story above. 

[Mak_Gohae]

2 hours ago, Magneu said:

This is too great. Do I even need to explain how ridiculous this statement is? You could maybe argue highest damage output if your time frame is a couple days, enemies stay in one spot, and even then, my money is on the Tonkor.

This is the funny thing about the argument against the tonkor. With the tonkor you are basically firing at random. Sure, when it hits it's awesome but there is a good chance that you will miss and mobs will walk by the nade and not take damage.

 

You have way more control over you shot with the torid than with the tonkor.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

6 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

This is the funny thing about the argument against the tonkor. With the tonkor you are basically firing at random. Sure, when it hits it's awesome but there is a good chance that you will miss and mobs will walk by the nade and not take damage.

 

You have way more control over you shot with the torid than with the tonkor.

Do you really need control when your top-frame is invincible, going at mach speed bullet jumping in the air? I mean, that's the beginning, once you've fired those two first shots you can correct the next two at an even closer range if you want to...
You're firing at random, but once you've seen the arc it's pretty hard to miss for anyone who has somewhat of a brain. Even a shot from 50-100 meters is pretty easy once you've gotten used to it
You may miss from a few meters but the explosion and auto-headshot got your back.

[Obviousclone]

15 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

This is the funny thing about the argument against the tonkor. With the tonkor you are basically firing at random. Sure, when it hits it's awesome but there is a good chance that you will miss and mobs will walk by the nade and not take damage.

 

You have way more control over you shot with the torid than with the tonkor.

then stop using heavy caliber

 

Tonkor also has a laser sight to guide your path when aiming down sights (unlike every other launcher),

so there is zero reason you should be shooting the inaccurate, Ivan.

[Mak_Gohae]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

Do you really need control when your top-frame is invincible, going at mach speed bullet jumping in the air? I mean, that's the beginning, once you've fired those two first shots you can correct the next two at an even closer range if you want to...
You're firing at random, but once you've seen the arc it's pretty hard to miss for anyone who has somewhat of a brain. Even a shot from 50-100 meters is pretty easy once you've gotten used to it
You may miss from a few meters but the explosion and auto-headshot got your back.

The mag for the tonkor is 2 base. So after you run out of ammo and have to reload which has a 2 second base on the tonkor...well your enemy is probably somewhere else.

2 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

then stop using heavy caliber

 

Tonkor also has a laser sight to guide your path when aiming down sights (unlike every other launcher),

so there is zero reason you should be shooting the inaccurate, Ivan.

So you suggest that when using the tonkor to just walk around slowly aiming? Hoping the enemies dont move while the slow nade eventually gets to them?

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

12 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

The mag for the tonkor is 2 base. So after you run out of ammo and have to reload which has a 2 second base on the tonkor...well your enemy is probably somewhere else.

So you suggest that when using the tonkor to just walk around slowly aiming? Hoping the enemies dont move while the slow nade eventually gets to them?

I don't remember the enemies walking at the speed of light, they're pretty slow and most of the time they take cover 2 meters away from their initial position when you enter a room...Beside the infected which randomly runs at you in a straight line I don't see any kind of enemy that could cause trouble.With any build using split chamber you'll fire 4 deadly grenade in the room you are in, heavy caliber on they'll cover a bigger ground and some will rebound on small wall or whatsoever covering the path infront of you if you aim well... 2 seconds to reload is basically nothing when you've nuked an entire room by shooting twice and that's without counting Mirage's hall of mirror that adds even more grenades to the lot. ( By room, I'm implying any normal room, not an entire map tileset defence-like. )

As for what you said to the other guy, like I said, once you get used to the arc and velocity/travel time you can pretty much do whatever you want with it. Just like any weapon, you aim for barely a second and you've got the line of sight, that's all you need the rest is all written in your head and you know just how far the nade will go if you touch the floor or wall. That part is what I LOVEEEE about the tonkor.

The half a million damage auto-headshot surpassing every single weapon in the game and the deadly grenade doesn't even tickle you is the part I hate.

Edited May 14, 2016 by (PS4)XxDarkyanxX

[Fionntan]

So far I prefer suggested changes/tweaks from this OP

That is all

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

3 minutes ago, Fionntan said:

So far I prefer suggested changes/tweaks from this OP

Fixing the auto-headshot / Radial blast thingy is already a huge step foward. My vote is on this guy aswell.

[Evanescent]

Best way to balance is to have self damage, and a bulletjump alt fire.

[Evanescent]

1 hour ago, Mak_Gohae said:

This is the funny thing about the argument against the tonkor. With the tonkor you are basically firing at random. Sure, when it hits it's awesome but there is a good chance that you will miss and mobs will walk by the nade and not take damage.

 

You have way more control over you shot with the torid than with the tonkor.

Yeah no. If you don't have heavy caliber on its arc can be predicted easily and used to land precise shots.

[Evanescent]

2 hours ago, TotallyLagging said:

Tonkor is bouncy as hell and explodes on contact, self-damage will only make it frustrating to use. Self-damage for other explosives should be rebalanced to Tonkor level.

Reduce base damage & crit multiplier, and fix auto-headshot that makes the Tonkor deal 4x more damage than it should. Now it's still a powerful weapon, but it's not something that overshadows every single weapon in the game.

That's reasonable.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Increase MR requirement and make it self damaging. To be honest later in the game there's plenty of other OP weapons to choose from so it's more an issue of new players not ever feeling like they need to use any other weapon. As for people who are opposed to self damage, just learn how to use it safely it's not that hard. The Penta used to be OP once upon a time as well.

[IceColdHawk]

2 hours ago, TotallyLagging said:

Reduce base damage & crit multiplier, and fix auto-headshot that makes the Tonkor deal 4x more damage than it should.

27 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

That's reasonable.

 

That'd be actually too overkill. The auto-headshot thing should stay. Launchers are supposed to deal tremendous damage. Not to mention the low ammo capacity. They just shouldn't be riskless while doing it.

34 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

Best way to balance is to have self damage, and a bulletjump alt fire.

^This has been advocated several times and is imo a good way to fix the tonkor. But then they should also highly increase the MR requirement and fix the grenades instantly exploding in front of your face.

[Xekrin]

7 hours ago, Currilicious said:

Tonkor is fine in my books so I would disagree to any nerfs.

I really don't think its the fact that Tonkor does neglible self damage, so little that its not even a concern or a threat or a worry.  I believe it is the fact that there are so many other weapons that DO do self damage and to play the six year old card It's not fair!.  I would love to use kulstar without fear of blowing myself up instantly if I aim badly or merely forget I have secondary equipped, or worse it stays equipped after I am revived and blow myself up AGAIN.

So really if its a choice between "give tonkor self damage too!!!" or "remove all self damage!!!!", which would be chosen by DE?  Although they certainly shown they are capable of completely ignoring this fact for so long, the community isn't likely to let it go any time soon if ever.  Eventually they will have to do something about it.

Already gave my suggestion but ultimately it is up to DE.

They should just do an official poll that decides the issue and be done with it.  And it should be a clearly visible poll provided in game so that those who don't visit forums or watch devstreams can vote as well.

Just like they said in devstream, Tonkor is the draco of weapons, or Draco is the tonkor of nodes, in either case something will need to be done about it at some point.

 

Edited May 14, 2016 by Xekrin

[-CM-Hekovashi]

Again-there no problem in tonkor, yeah it's arguably da best, but nerf it and players just gonna take gun that next to him. SCALING is a problem-you don't need tonkor for 1-90 lvl dudes, any other weapon will kill them faster (due to low magazine, the ark of grenade, it shots between leg 1\10 of the time, you can miss with grenade, etc). But if you face lvl 250-400+? To be able to kill THOSE dudes you NEED a weapon that would perform overkill at 1-100 lvl, that simple.

Adding self damage would ruin tonkor, i hardly see anyone who uses penta\ogris\kulstar or any other "Ha! you kill youself" guns in pubs, simple because you can...kill yourself with it (don't tell me about "I use it all the time etc" stuff, i play every day and good lord if i run in to 1 or 2 penta users).

What need to be done:

1-Fix scaling, if you can kill everything with anything at any period of time you will not be forced to use one of the few "Endgame" guns, more weapon diversity.

2-Remove self damage from other launchers. Yea, that the main reason why many people don't wanna use them, simple not worth it.

3-AFTER ALL OF THAT you can balance tonkor and other "Endgame" weapons all you want, coz without insane scaling you don't gonna need them, all guns be ~ equall good.

Till all of this-if you nerf (or add self damage) tonkor players will just take other gun that perform overkill at low-lvl, simple because YOU have to use it, or you can't kill reallly high lvl stuff and gonna stuck at T4 40-120 mins survs.

Edited May 14, 2016 by -CM-Hekovashi

[Magneu]

4 hours ago, Currilicious said:

His point is valid in this setting and it isn't a fallacy.

If you intend to label someone's opinion, please do take context into account.

There are already existing items, levels, mechanics across multiple games that went that route and the end result isn't pretty.

And, in a game that is primarily PVE and a totally optional PVP, what would it matter for a weapon to be powerful?

If it's comparative power with other weapons you're concerned about, then propose to have those buffed.

Now, if you argue about how this would lead to a power creep guess which side of the slope is slippery now?

His argument is not valid, because he is claiming the Tonkor's downsides make its extreme DPS "balanced". If you can't hit an enemy from 20 meters (or closer, cause, ya know, no self-damage) with the Tonkor, maybe you shouldn't be playing a shooter. Magazine size? Doesn't really matter when each grenade has the largest AOE of explosives in game and massively highest damage; plenty of time to reload when they're all dead. Reload speed? Actually better then other launchers. Accuracy? Don't even try. Slap a Heavy Caliber on the Tonkor and Ogris and see what happens. In my testing, an 8/10 HC barely affects the accuracy at all.

It's also been covered how the Tonkor impacts the gameplay of others, so much in the other thread that I see no need to reiterate here. Outside of the gameplay, it also creates an environment where people cling to the Tonkor and never try new weapons (I've seen MR7 players with a couple hundred hours of game-time and 80% usage on the Tonkor). Also, answering your last statement,

 

 

It's a well documented effect that becomes much more prominent when a clear outlier (namely, the Tonkor) is put in-game and never changed. Arguing against this is arguing against documented events that prove this phenomenon. 

[Magneu]

3 minutes ago, -CM-Hekovashi said:

Again-there no problem in tonkor, yeah it's arguably da best, but nerf it and players just gonna take gun that next to him. SCALING is a problem-you don't need tonkor for 1-90 lvl dudes, any other weapon will kill them faster (due low magazine, the ark of grenade, it shots between leg 1\10 of the time, you can miss with grenade, etc). But if you face lvl 250-400+? To be able to kill THOSE dudes you NEED a weapon that would perform overkill at 1-100 lvl, that simple.

Adding self damage would ruin tonkor, i hardly see anyone who uses penta\ogris\kulstar or any other "Ha! you kill youself" guns in pubs, simple because you can...kill yourself with it (don't tell me about "I use it all the time etc" stuff, i play every day and good lord if i run in to 1 or 2 penta users).

What need to be done:

1-Fix scaling, if you can kill anything with everything you will not forced to use one of the few "Endgame" guns, more weapon diversity.

2-Remove self damage from other launchers. Yea, that the main reason why many people don't wanna use them, simple not worth it.

3-AFTER ALL OF THAT you can balance tonkor and other "Endgame" weapons all you want, coz without insane scaling you don't gonna need them, all guns be ~ equall good.

Till all of this-if you nerf (or add self damage) tonkor players will just take other gun that perform overkill at low-lvl, simple because YOU have to use it, of you can't kill reallly high lvl stuff and gonna stuck at T4 40-100 mins survs.

Since when is level 250-400 balanced? DE has indicated that Raids and Sortie three are the currently accepted "high levels". That caps at 120. I think you're also exaggerating the "downsides" of the Tonkor as well. 

Also, nerfing the Tonkor will result in people using the next best thing, that's just natural. It needs to be done though, because instead of being the best by a small bit, the Tonkor is the best by a massive margin, to the point where using anything else is gimping yourself in the DPS/usability department.

In addition, how would self-damage ruin the Tonkor? It would force you to use it like a grenade launcher, not a glorified shotgun. The reason you never see anyone else using other explosives is because the Tonkor is objectively better in QoL, raw damage, and negating the single-biggest downside of explosives, self-damage. 

I agree scaling needs to be looked at for both weapons and enemies; Damage 3.0 is coming eventually. However, as is right now, the Tonkor tops the damage charts by a huge gap, with nothing even coming close, then applies it in an AOE, then gets rid of explosive's biggest downside. How is that balanced at all (and if you think balance doesn't matter, I refer you to the videos in the post above).

[ElCorintio]

So, people who don't even use Tonkor, seems entitled to ask for nerfs, when -probably- people who enjoy playing with the weapon are fine with it

 

Tonkor needs no nerf, the problem is self damage in other weapons... Hell, even throwing weapons like glaive can possibly auto kill you

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

I think we should double the damage && make the crit multiplier to 5.0. Also increase the expulsion radius by 3. && then it would be balanced 

[-CM-Hekovashi]

Just now, Magneu said:

Since when is level 250-400 balanced? DE has indicated that Raids and Sortie three are the currently accepted "high levels". That caps at 120. I think you're also exaggerating the "downsides" of the Tonkor as well. 

Also, nerfing the Tonkor will result in people using the next best thing, that's just natural. It needs to be done though, because instead of being the best by a small bit, the Tonkor is the best by a massive margin, to the point where using anything else is gimping yourself in the DPS/usability department.

In addition, how would self-damage ruin the Tonkor? It would force you to use it like a grenade launcher, not a glorified shotgun. The reason you never see anyone else using other explosives is because the Tonkor is objectively better in QoL, raw damage, and negating the single-biggest downside of explosives, self-damage. 

I agree scaling needs to be looked at for both weapons and enemies; Damage 3.0 is coming eventually. However, as is right now, the Tonkor tops the damage charts by a huge gap, with nothing even coming close, then applies it in an AOE, then gets rid of explosive's biggest downside. How is that balanced at all (and if you think balance doesn't matter, I refer you to the videos in the post above).

You don't read what i said don't ya? I don't defend tonkor, but it should exist as it is at exact this moment.

 Where i said that lvl 250-400 is balanced? I said that it's insanely broken, but it still exist in the game and lots of pll want to do endurance runs. Untill that lvl of scaling exist there should be guns that able to kill it, remove that lvl of scaling and you don't gonna need tonkors, vayhek, s tigris and other stuff.

 Adding self damage would ruin it, coz as tonkor showed-there high demand of players who DON'T wanna do self damage, no1 need it or find it interesitng.

 De CAN and SHOULD nerf tonkor at some point, but only AFTER scaling is fixed and all other launchers will do nodamage and receive damage tweaks.

[Magneu]

47 minutes ago, ElCorintio said:

So, people who don't even use Tonkor, seems entitled to ask for nerfs, when -probably- people who enjoy playing with the weapon are fine with it

 

Tonkor needs no nerf, the problem is self damage in other weapons... Hell, even throwing weapons like glaive can possibly auto kill you

Because not using something (spoiler: I have, five forma's worth) is indicative of not having a valid, fact-backed opinion. 

Claiming it doesn't need a nerf without backing up that claim is just a waste of time.

Go read the other thread on this. It has all the current arguments laid out over and over for your reading pleasure.