Dev Workshop Part 2: ...& more Warframe Changes.

[-dicht.Amducias-]

37 minutes ago, Magnulast said:

I'm getting sick and tired of these, BLESS NERF INCOMING.

LoR? JV? 

Nope, it won't. I'm perfectly fine as is, even if Blind mirage and Bless trinity is removed.

It makes the game better. 

It finally removes two stupid jobs, and frees up for more creative use.

Players like me actually have skill and focus on killing targets and using other abilties rather than just relying on two.

It will teach players that you'd actually need to fight instead of relying on cheap builds to get you out of trouble.

Haha have fun trying to compete in top times when focusing on killing.. these nerfs and literally no, exactly 0 changes to the broken enemies / the mission itself will ruin raids completely, especially the competitive part of it and very especially public raids, because you actually need many good players to do it fluidly so pub raids, both jv and lor will be rarer than vengeful revenant

[osheroth]

2 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

I see nothing about a Bladestorm "nerf".

Either nerf or buff they've been teasing an alltogether rework of that ability for a long time.

[Niceberg]

2 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

I see nothing about a Bladestorm "nerf".

Then you are blind. 

"Trinity's Blessing & Ash's Bladestorm are both under review as well. "

What do you think these are? Buffs? Look closely at this thread and at DE's history of nerfs before replying. Lets see if you can find a pattern.

[Magnulast]

1 minute ago, -dicht.Amducias- said:

Haha have fun trying to compete in top times when focusing on killing.. these nerfs and literally no, exactly 0 changes to the broken enemies / the mission itself will ruin raids completely, especially the competitive part of it and very especially public raids, because you actually need many good players to do it fluidly so pub raids, both jv and lor will be rarer than vengeful revenant

I know I will need competitive players, and some of the enemies are broken....(NAPLAMS.)

But to me, I really have ALWAYS wanted to do this.

I could have done a chroma raid if it wasn't for the EV that left, making the process way to costly, and something I cannot afford.

And yes, I am one of the end-game players.

[Fifield]

16 minutes ago, DuskLegendary said:

Yeah I honestly don't think I'll be playing many Raids after this nerf wave is pushed out. Mirage is very much needed in a Raid, especially on the driving part that's already hard enough with a PUG group anyways, and if they nerf Blessing? Haha, good game fellas. 

Bastille is almost as good as Prism for disabling.  So is Sound Quake.  Molecular Prime suffices also -- you just need to shoot Scorpions.  Also, can't Limbo just Banish everyone on a pad?

[Tzolkat]

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Valkyr:

Hysteria is Valkyr's Rage Mode - we teased and released her as a Beserker frame and we've iterated on Hysteria a couple of times since release. We are returning to this power to reign in its issues but still thematically invoke her ultimate rage.

The relationship between time spent in Hysteria and energy & incoming damage has changed in two ways.

Firstly, the longer you stay in Hysteria, the more Energy it'll cost you and (but the energy drain ramp up is capped).

Secondly, while in Hysteria you are still invulnerable - the current Hysteria indicator on the UI tells you how much incoming damage you've absorbed and mitigated. The longer you stay in Hysteria, the less effective the mitigation of incoming damage is on the 'End Hysteria' phase. Ending your Hysteria session should be done with care - ensuring no enemies are in the range of Valkyrs Hysteria Aura (20 meters max, they have to be able to see you), or you will take the damage. How you choose to dispose of these enemies is up to you - either kill them, or get a safe distance away to deactivate Hysteria.

In my opinion, mainly what these changes, taken as they are, would accomplish is discouraging the use of Hysteria. There are no upsides here, and the changes add another layer of complexity onto an ability that is already difficult to predict in terms of what it will do when it ends. To help us navigate the new downsides, I believe it would be a good idea for the existing indicator be extended to show not only how much damage you've absorbed, but how much damage you'll take if the ability ends 'unsafely'. I also think there should be a more visually obvious way to know where the aura ends, or an indicator of how many enemies are currently present inside it.

In all honesty I think Valkyr could use a more holistic treatment, adding synergies to her abilities and giving her more things she can bring to a team, like allowing other players to benefit to some extent from Hysteria's life-steal if they are close enough to be inside the aura. Just a thought.

[Fifield]

11 minutes ago, RazrOutlaw said:

There aren't broken enemies,but, there is broken scalling on this enemies, once you reach lvl 500+, I'd been agaisnt lvl 3000 Infested (which are considered to be the least fearsome enemies in the game) and you get one shotted even with the 99% damage reduction from Trinity and every other damage reduction/enemy debuff in-game.

Do I have to point out that you shouldn't even be able to survive long enough to go up against level 500 enemies?

[-dicht.Amducias-]

3 minutes ago, Magnulast said:

I know I will need competitive players, and some of the enemies are broken....(NAPLAMS.)

But to me, I really have ALWAYS wanted to do this.

I could have done a chroma raid if it wasn't for the EV that left, making the process way to costly, and something I cannot afford.

And yes, I am one of the end-game players.

I talk about top-times not randomly running raids.. i also did a 8 limbo raid once for fun but simply completing that mission is not what i talk about.. i want to do it fast and my group wants that too

[TheRandomHunter]

4 minutes ago, Fifield said:

But enemy scaling isn't a big one.  Re: EHP, worst case scenario, you bring 3 or 4 CPs.  Re: damage -- there are literally dozens of disables, guns that can shoot round corners, plenty of cover, free revives, 3 auto-revives....

It needs a tweak that I've written about elsewhere and will a new thread about but it doesn't break the game.  Unlike Prism, Molecular Prime, EV et al.

You're wrong. Painfully wrong. How is enemy scaling not a problem? You say EHP, yeah, sure, that's a problem fixed by stacking CP auras or corrosive procs. What about scaling enemy damage? There is one gun that can literally shoot around corners, and it's not that great (hilariously, because of enemy scaling), the rest are weapons with splash damage. Free revives only count if you have a teammate in range, that won't die trying to revive you. Auto-revives now have an affinity penalty attached, so while you can argue they're available, they should never be considered a thing that should be used.

At a certain point, enemies will one shot you. If your argument is "Oh, then you should evac", that's a bad argument. You can get one-shotted, or close to it, in Sorties easily, can you just evacuate those? That's where these "gamebreaking" abilities come into play. Warframes are not durable, at all. There is a hard cap on warframe damage resistance and health that, in the grand scheme of things, is a very low threshold. Damage resistance, crowd control, etc. all serve to increase survivability because enemy scaling progresses well beyond what's survivable. This is not a failing of these abilities, they're working as intended, it's a failing of enemy scaling. I'm not going to even get into how you're actually wrong about enemy EHP, and how it makes 90% of the weapons in the game worthless regardless of whether they have armor or not.

Quote

There aren't any broken enemies either.

Maybe they can nerf Nullifiers (or just introduce them at the end of the mission) once there aren't any OP frames left to balance.  But we're a long long way from that.

Nullifiers are a decent concept with a bad execution, they're not broken. Manics are broken. God help you if you get a level 100 one during a sortie, be prepared to fight it for 5 minutes unless you have a stupidly high burst damage weapon. Combas are broken because they have barely any tells until you're already getting ruined by their effects. Enemy scaling in general is broken because they'll become so tanky you'll burn entire weapon magazines killing them, and they'll burn 2 bullets killing you. You can't say this isn't broken.

[GreyEnneract]

6 minutes ago, osheroth said:

Either nerf or buff they've been teasing an alltogether rework of that ability for a long time.

"Under Review"

6 minutes ago, TheKittenEater said:

Then you are blind. 

"Trinity's Blessing & Ash's Bladestorm are both under review as well. "

What do you think these are? Buffs? Look closely at this thread and at DE's history of nerfs before replying. Lets see if you can find a pattern.

I doubt you can even name one of the many buffs DE has applied through reworks.

Though you're obviously just a bait account. Nice 3 posts.

[TheTundraTerror]

If DE actually nerfs Blessing in any capacity, than LoR NM mode is going to basically be impossible.

[RazrOutlaw]

Just now, Fifield said:

Do I have to point out that you shouldn't even be able to survive long enough to go up against level 500 enemies?

Why? That'd mean I shouldn't be able to play the game for as long as I want, either cap the level scalling and then balance everything out, or let the game as it is, because trust me, everything is underpowered against lvl 3000 enemies.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

31 minutes ago, TheRandomHunter said:

Reactionary healing doesn't work at high levels in Warframe. If you've ever noticed, it's not like people take damage at well timed intervals like in other MMO's raids. One person will make a mistake and suddenly take a large amount of damage, and unless you're staring at your UI waiting for it to happen (when you should be fighting as well), they'll go down and then you CAN'T heal them. It's especially bad in things like sorties, where someone can go down in literally a second with no time to react.

Trin's damage reduction is the only feasible way to heal in this game when health pools are so tiny and enemies can do so much damage.

That's like giving players the old Paladin bubble in a raid and extending it for 29 seconds -- without any drawbacks. No CDs; no 25% mana drain; no having to stay in some some no move/no combat state.

Those games also base damage on percentages. If I have 500k health, 25% of it gone still hurts, when a boss can hit you for 20,000,000 damage!!!

Players die even with 5 healers in a raid, because there's some RISK. AoE bomb drops and stuns an area; reflection mechanics; DoTs the raid will take constant damage -- and you save your 8 second save for *1* time, as it's CD is so long it can only be used in one fight. And those bosses have rage timers, too. Not endless, not down in 5 minutes EVERYONE WIPES.

Furthermore, can't fix armor scaling with that type of "healing". It'll make the game too trivial.

I tested Trinity Prime and just laughed, as simply that's TOO good -- I'd be a God in WoW with 99% damage reduction/instant full heal/and can supply mana on the side...with no cool downs or penalties. That's 100x better than WotLK!!! lololol

[GreyEnneract]

Just now, RazrOutlaw said:

Why? That'd mean I shouldn't be able to play the game for as long as I want, either cap the level scalling and then balance everything out, or let the game as it is, because trust me, everything is underpowered against lvl 3000 enemies.

There have been many suggestions to counter enemy scaling. From slow building overshield, to shield gating, to dead enemies being absorbed into the frames to give them extra armor. 

I doubt DE will address enemy scaling and balance between units until after damage 3.0.

[Fifield]

1 minute ago, RazrOutlaw said:

Why? That'd mean I shouldn't be able to play the game for as long as I want

What does playing a 3 hour mission bring you that playing a 1 hour mission doesn't?

3 minutes ago, RazrOutlaw said:

everything is underpowered against lvl 3000 enemies.

If only we could go against level 3000 enemies without having to do level 35, 36, 37 etc ones first...

 

[osheroth]

3 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

"Under Review"

 

...ok, look. There's currently 3 ways to change things: nerf, buff or rework. Mag and Volt are getting reworked, this means some of their abilites will function in significantly different ways.

yes, there's no mention of a nerf, congrats, you can read; but there isn't a word on Ash's rework in regards to bladestorm either.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

These seem like good changes, with one exception:

Rather than make spins cost energy, I would suggest changing Excal's RB spin attack altogether, and removing the blind and additional cost. It seems kind of weird that doing a spin attack with a melee frame on a melee power will inherently cost 25 energy. Instead, maybe just make the spin knock down enemies in a radius around it, or something like that.

 

I understand why Blessing would be getting a look, but EV probably needs one too.

One last note for tweaks; I would suggest moving around some of the effects of MPrime to Null Star, since the latter is infinitely more useful than the former.

 

Oh! And changes to Blessing all but require a raid rework (which I think would be beneficial anyway).

Edited May 27, 2016 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[Niceberg]

1 minute ago, GreyEnneract said:

I doubt you can even name one of the many buffs DE has applied through reworks.

Though you're obviously just a bait account. Nice 3 posts.

Mesa says hi. Though you obviously can think of a lot, lot more, cant you?

MR 17 in game, by the way. Not everyone that plays the game wastes their time posting on the forums. Only came here to give my two cents on the nerfs. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Mirage:

Sleight of Hand: We have increased the damage and detonation range of all objects that can be booby trapped.

Prism: Prism’s Blind effect is now affected by the enemy's Line-of-Sight (LoS) to the Prism. Prism’s damage has been buffed slightly to compensate for this change. We found that Prism was able to lock down maps with little recourse, and we feel that these changes will make it a more targeted ability while also increasing its tactical usage.

 

If it's not Mirage it's something else, the issues lies within scaling, I doubt anyone wants to bring a blind Mirage into a game for fun, it's totally boring and it hurts people's eyes badly. If it's not about enemy finishing the team less than a second, no one will use this build. Fix the scaling too, please.

 

Valkyr:

Hysteria is Valkyr's Rage Mode - we teased and released her as a Beserker frame and we've iterated on Hysteria a couple of times since release. We are returning to this power to reign in its issues but still thematically invoke her ultimate rage.

The relationship between time spent in Hysteria and energy & incoming damage has changed in two ways.

Firstly, the longer you stay in Hysteria, the more Energy it'll cost you and (but the energy drain ramp up is capped).

Secondly, while in Hysteria you are still invulnerable - the current Hysteria indicator on the UI tells you how much incoming damage you've absorbed and mitigated. The longer you stay in Hysteria, the less effective the mitigation of incoming damage is on the 'End Hysteria' phase. Ending your Hysteria session should be done with care - ensuring no enemies are in the range of Valkyrs Hysteria Aura (20 meters max, they have to be able to see you), or you will take the damage. How you choose to dispose of these enemies is up to you - either kill them, or get a safe distance away to deactivate Hysteria.

 

The point here is? I can just get out of it and reactivate it. These changes forces the player to be very calm and know what they are doing instead of being a rage machine that only focus on killing. There is no need for Hysteria in short missions, the only time when Hysteria shines is in high level contents, which enemies are spawning quickly and dealing intense amount of damage. Why would you want to punish me for applying the right tool at right moment? I thought Warframes are about different tools in the tool box and applying the right tool at the right situation? Taking too much pressure from the community maybe? 

 

Excalibur:

Excalibur's rework made him an indisputable lethal force - a role he will continue to shine in, but now with more reasonable parameters on his Exalted Blade waves.

Exalted Blade’s damage will now diminish according to distance traveled and enemies punctured, and Exalted Blade’s built-in Radial Blind on spin will now cost ½ the Energy of a regular Radial Blind. Although Exalted Blade is a lot of fun, we feel that it completely overshadows all of Excalibur’s other abilities at little cost. The powerful range on Exalted Blade turned Excalibur into more of a turret than a swordsman. This change means that Exalted Blade is more effective when used in close range and using Radial Blind is now a calculated choice. The ability will simply become more engaging in all encounters.

 

Be honest here, it's not MORE EFFECTIVE, it's forced into close range. Reward player for actually hitting enemy with the Exalted Blade is more effective in close range. The right way to phrase these changes are less effective against long range enemies. For the energy consumption part, I expect it mimic Radial Blind which enemies will take more melee damage and open up to melee finishers if it consumes energy. I'm a fan of spin attacks for the damage but not that blind utility, the range is so small and the cast is so long that it's like non existence for a CC ability. The spin move for me is only for damage and nothing more, this is very discouraging on spin attacks to melee users, especially new players when they use Excalibur, and spin attacks are very critical in melee. This change on the energy part is actually punishing players for using spin attacks. What if I want to perform a spin attack without causing energy? You can remove that fake Radial Blind move, even with 250% range it's merely 12.5 meters. I'm more gladly you remove that radial blind move, I rather spend my energy on the actual Radial Blind which is more effective and faster than the spin attack mimic. I want my spin attack, why am I punished for using the most effective melee attack? Make your fake Radial Blind as alt fire maybe? Or you just want to promote brain dead energy wave slashes for Excalibur?

 

 

I wish DE really think about what kind of changes are they making here. It's like there is a fire due to a gasoline leaking, instead of dealing with the gasoline(source of the problem), they simply just put out a fire extinguisher, hoping they can stop the fire... The quality of these changes are poorly made this time.

 

[osheroth]

So, Exalted Blade is a buff to what ability exactly?

Reworked, i.e he got a new ability alltogether.

[RazrOutlaw]

Just now, GreyEnneract said:

There have been many suggestions to counter enemy scaling. From slow building overshield, to shield gating, to dead enemies being absorbed into the frames to give them extra armor. 

I doubt DE will address enemy scaling and balance between units until after damage 3.0.

Then they shouldn't rush the balance changes, we aren't in need of this nerfs, right now you can't keep up against the highest level enemies (mainly because there is no cap for THE highest level), so how can you sort out what is strong and what is weak?, I mean, sure Oberon is under performing, but that doesn't mean DE should nerf every frame to Oberon's performance, In every competitive game (that balance is mainly begged for) The player capabilities are balanced against their enemies, so right know we can't balances this game out when scalling is infinite.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

1 minute ago, Fifield said:

If only we could go against level 3000 enemies without having to do level 35, 36, 37 etc ones first...

Doubt most could handle 35, 36, 37 as the Void shows alone. -_-

All anyone wants is 20mins max. All the time I played 1000+ hrs, only one Void run to 60mins, and even that was a T2D. -_-

Only one 3200 run at Hieracon (most leave at 1600, just as the first death is possible, too).

[Zantek2]

13 minutes ago, Flackenstien said:

My Thoughts:   
________________________________________________________________

Excal and Valkyr's changes definitely seem like good ways to balance these powers. Exact values may need tweaking, but that's expected.  
________________________________________________________________

Ash's Ulti needs more interactivity, making you work a bit more for the massive damage.  
________________________________________________________________

Trinity's Ulti completely overshadows her entire kit, barring Energy Vampire.   
It could use a toning down, but with an added utility.  
For example:    
● Now has a range limit, albeit a large one.  
● Heals over time instead of instant. (Damage reduction stacks with each heal over time, making that less instant too.) 
● Decently reduced duration for the damage reduction.  
● Can now pick up downed allies within range.   
Well of Life really should be Trinity's go-to healing skill, and Link aught to be worth using outside of when you don't feel like spamming Bless.

Ideally I'd like to see Blessing tilted more towards helping Tenno survive a rough battle by giving heal over time with matching damage reduction boost over time, being more like an actual "blessing" than a cure-all godmode.   
The added utility of something like letting it revive would make up for it not being infinite range and instant speed. (Ideally it would still have a very large radius though, maybe enough to heal Tenno a couple map tiles over.)  

Well of Life could get a range buff (with heal reducing with range), and the Augment could use a rework. Pool of Life would be pretty neat if it instead made X enemies within range of the initial target also be suspended as Wells upon cast. Adding to CC and total heal capabilities.   

Each Link chain could have the ability to connect to allies before hopping over to an enemy, giving the damage redirection to very nearby allies too. Giving her more support utility and making up for Blessings reduced duration.   

Energy Vampire would need some balance adjustments too. It's simply infinite energy.  
● Maybe have its Energy replenish negatively scale with how much Energy a Tenno has. Warframes with over 50-75% Energy would receive little, but frames with 0-25% Energy could shoot all the way up.  
● The Energy returns could go down with how much damage the target takes too, having less overall returns when you kill the enemy to rush it for Energy, and higher returns when you let it cook.
________________________________________________________________

Some decent suggestions, but I have a nitpick with the proposed Blessing changes you have here. I feel it'd be better if on cast, you got the full damage reduction, degrading over the duration of the ability. This way, you still have that "clutch save" feel that Blessing was meant to have. Consider the following scenario: Trin casts Blessing for a teammate taking fire at less than 25% HP. With your changes, it wouldn't save them. Low health, low damage reduction wouldn't be enough to keep them alive with a health-over-time heal (and the damage reduction being over time as well). Especially where higher level content is concerned. Low health, high damage reduction with regenerating health would give them enough breathing room to get out of that situation alive. Though even with this in mind, there'll come a point in a mission where the health-over-time just won't be enough to keep up with the damage, but that's more of a problem with level scaling.

The Link suggestion is interesting. I'd absolutely love Link to have an AOE granting nearby allies that damage reduction. Would definitely give me more of a reason to keep it active more often.

The reason you give for EV needing changes is rather absurd, in my opinion. I feel like its equivalent to saying bringing in energy restores = infinite energy. Having 50 Large Restores in your gear slot (which isn't an unreasonable amount to have, in my opinion) is well more than enough to get you through 99% of all the game content you'd likely be bringing it to (the notable exceptions to that being nightmare raids, which require you to burn stupid amounts of restores on the button puzzle if your team takes too long, and "endurance-style" hour+ long survival and defense missions). Energy isn't really the issue here. The true issue is when EV is paired with cheese tactics, like a Blind Mirage, EB/RJ Excal, so on, and so forth. When you're not in a squad of power-abuseable spam-frames, or are running a non-EV build, there's less of a need for EV to be used (and in the case of a non-EV build, harder to supply energy, especially in higher-level content).

The one ability I'm sad to see that you didn't touch on is Well of Life, which in my opinion, is an absolutely garbage ability. On cast, it puts an enemy in stasis, and multiplies their health 10x. In exchange, it turns them into a battery of health, which when hit, 45% of your weapon's damage in converted into health, restoring at a maximum of 450 health. A pool of health shared by your entire squad. For the duration of the ability cast. Now, granted, when you exhaust that pool of health, the ability prematurely ends. But if you're in, say, a defense mission, only one enemy is left and everyone's full health... You've just got a floating bullet sponge with ten times the health of any normal unit for however long your ability duration is. In any case, it's an absolutely poor ability as it stands. I'm personally of the opinion that she just needs an entirely new first ability, or at the very least make it so that it more synergizes with the rest of her abilities, because modding for anything else comes at a great detriment to WoL (unless you're hunting for Synthesis targets with a duration build, which is the only thing I use it for). Her first ability needs some radical changes, because right now it just doesn't work with the rest of her kit (and to be honest, I don't know where to begin for suggesting changes).

[RazrOutlaw]

5 minutes ago, Fifield said:

What does playing a 3 hour mission bring you that playing a 1 hour mission doesn't?

If only we could go against level 3000 enemies without having to do level 35, 36, 37 etc ones first...

 

Then survival should be a countdown rather than a timed mission, with a 1 hour cap, and you can leave from the first 5 minutes, but It isn't.

Item rewards are the same, that doesn't mean I should settle for just doing a 20 minute mission and repeating, specially when those mission types are locked behind more grind (talking about void keys)

[TheTundraTerror]

Just now, osheroth said:

what are you even talking about?

DE isn't going to buff Blessing of Blade Storm so get that idea out of your head.