Let's talk about 'cheesing'

[SaucyTuckermax]

So since the U18.13 was released, as you all know there has been a lot of backlash. And I just wanted to figure out something that doesn't make sense to me. I've noticed that a fair amount of people that are happy about the 18.13 nerfs (I am not one of them) have usually stated something like this in response to some of us who are justifiably salty:

"Your just sad because you can't 'cheese' anymore."

So...my question is...what exactly is 'cheese'??

Is cheese taking frost to ANY defense mission? Is cheese taking vauban to heiracon? Is cheese taking volt to vault runs so you can do them twice as fast? Is cheese using loki's invisibility as much as possible? Is cheese bringing limbo to banish hostages for sorties? Is cheese bringing mag (pre ner..I mean 'rework') to ANY corpus mission? Is cheese using ash? Like for anything?

How about weapons? Is a 5 forma'd lex prime pretty 'cheesy'? what about rubico...must be cheese. Tonkor? sancti tigris, ETC...

Point is, I'm really confused here...What is cheesing and what isn't considered cheesing??? The whole game is cheesing. If I'm understanding it correctly...who in the **** isn't cheesing and what are you suppossibly not cheesing with??

 

 

 

[GeoffFromAccounting]

my definition of cheese has always been simply: "any item, weapon, warframe, sentinel, gear item or any other loadout item with the ability to either trivialise all content ranging from Mercury to Sortie 3, or to remove any form of difficulty from a mission (e.g. Pre-18.13 nerf Mirage or pre-18.13 nerf Trin, and to an extent current Trin etc.)"

[SaucyTuckermax]

1 minute ago, Ninjaboy00 said:

my definition of cheese has always been simply: "any item, weapon, warframe, sentinel, gear item or any other loadout item with the ability to either trivialise all content ranging from Mercury to Sortie 3, or to remove any form of difficulty from a mission (e.g. Pre-18.13 nerf Mirage or pre-18.13 nerf Trin, and to an extent current Trin etc.)"

So...basically anything that's in the game that has the right build?

[GeoffFromAccounting]

1 minute ago, SaucyTuckermax said:

So...basically anything that's in the game that has the right build?

I mean anything that removes any challenge from a game, whether it be instant crowd clears (Old Molecular Prime, to a certain extent Tonkor etc.) or just locks down the map and brings gameplay to a stop so I can watch another episode of Archer while I wait for the mission to end (again, I bring up pre-18.13 nerf Mirage with her Prism spam). In simple terms, if I'm able to watch Netflix without any attention to Warframe because either the entire map is locked down or I'm just simply invincible, then that's cheesing. At least in my definition anyhow.

[blackheartstar_pc]

1 hour ago, SaucyTuckermax said:

So...basically anything that's in the game that has the right build?

That is basically what they are getting at. Looking at all the complaints about things being "cheesy" if you put them all into effect everything in the game would be flat line. Nothing better or more useful than anything else. You could use anything everywhere against anything with the same effectiveness. If all this stuff equates to "cheese" then this game is like food and better for having it.

Edited May 29, 2016 by blackheartstar_pc

[Cortanis]

This is something I too wonder about. I have rarely seen players keep up with high level content if they're not using some kind of massive aoe damage or mechanic that leads to absurd damages. Ash is called out as press 4 to win. That's great and all, but the question arises in the other three abilities and their implementation. Cloaking has its place if built around it, but the throwing knives and teleport don't really hold up in this style of game play due to it being you vs the masses and those abilities being rather single target based with no real definition otherwise. Let's face it too. Ash isn't the only one with this problem.

As for weapons... isn't literally anything with a syndicate proc really cheesing it? I have almost all of them and even the melee one can be made to work for you well enough. I've actually used the Skana in this case as a finisher blade by going full melee, building up the proc almost to the end, and then switching back to gunplay. This gives me a good pocket proc that I can actually control to an extend when it goes off rather than random bursts. That's from arguably the worst sword in the game. Some of them are genuinely good weapons like the Cernos, but I could honestly do similar things with other weapons. Like putting out a 100% red crit Paris Prime or we go with the obligatory red crit melee builds.

We're talking high damage and largely end game for a reason. The right tool for the right job as it were. Even with this though, some things can't really be ignored though. Take the changes to Valk for instance. The old perma invincible Valk builds were a bit much. The pull Mags were super op in some cases and many found them highly annoying, but they were kind of limited in play. The nerf on some of that wasn't really necessary and I don't think the abilities really synergise well.

Unfortunately, I think each person's idea of cheesing it will vary quite a bit. It's damage scales vs content. As noted in other threads, DE really needs to establish a real cap in what they're balancing based on as well as stats for both us and the enemies present. With out that, we will of course have the massive amount of weapons/frames that are really based around super high end content like doing T3&4 sur missions solo for multiple hours. Then taking that out into this lvl 30-50 balanced content renders that content little more than a thin loot backdrop.

[Flirk2]

I got into an argument about it not too long ago in this thread:

And got an answer, that 20 waves of t3d solo on a Frost with a Dread was

I later went with unmodded Frost, but used Rakta Cernos instead. But that would again be ''broken'', and a ''cheese fest'', I'm sure.

Never mind that as far as no-mods option go the game seems to be balanced around level 30 enemies for frames, and level 5 for weapons as weapons don't get any power from leveling. And that if you played long enough to be able to survive on an fame with no health, armor and shield mods. or at least went with a frame that was specifically designed for that type of mission.

I really don't know if I want to find out what exactly is considered as ''skill'' by those people. I hope that person is now happy. Mirage got nerfed hard. Now all he will need is a nerf to Frost and probably a total removal of EV from Trinity...

[Sasquatchias]

Personally I think of "cheese" as just mechanically or numerically unbalanced stuff inside the game that is abused, either by players or because of enemy design. 

 

Numerically broken stuff just refers to factors such as damage output or armor / defense / health - this is stuff that could generally be fixed a little more easily, as you're adjusting the values as opposed to changing how something works. 

Examples of this is stuff like the Tonkor hitting for ludicrous amounts of damage, or the enemies having their health and armor (or shields in Corpus case) bump up to ridiculous heights once you reach a certain point in "Endless" missions like Wave Defense, Interception, Survival, etc...

 

Mechanically broken stuff is just things that are broken by design - your Abilities that hit every enemy in the room, mechanics that let you abuse AI, enemy design that does nothing but frustrate players, etc...

Examples of this is stuff like Ash's Bladestorm, which can hit almost all enemies in a room just by pressing a button, Loki's Radial Disarm which lowers enemy threat significantly for as long as they live, a weapon like the Tonkor not having self damage, or things like Nullifier Bubbles.

[(XBOX)Skode]

Cheese is stuff which outperforms the alternatives to make things far easier with no negatives to balance said strength. Newbs can survive any mission under Hysteria with ease for long durations previously no matter expertise of the game, Blessing made a mockery of Oberon/Equinox with instant distance less shields, health and mitigation... no drawbacks.

There's still cheese like Bladestorm esp after passive buff but it's getting looked at too. Strong is good but there has to be balance.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

4 hours ago, Ninjaboy00 said:

my definition of cheese has always been simply: "any item, weapon, warframe, sentinel, gear item or any other loadout item with the ability to either trivialise all content ranging from Mercury to Sortie 3, or to remove any form of difficulty from a mission (e.g. Pre-18.13 nerf Mirage or pre-18.13 nerf Trin, and to an extent current Trin etc.)"

Seriously why even play a game with powers. Loki's Switch teleport as a example wasn't cheesing the spy vaults. That was the only legitament reason to have such an option in a power kit. It's only use currently in the eyes of the player base is trolling other players. That's it's only selling point next to invisibility use in getting you to the vaults. A perk for trolls.

Same for Wu-Kong. His cloudwalker would make him viable for spy vault missions like Limbo. But no people call it cheesing and force players to rely on movement 2.0 and soon wall latch, or floaty flying will be cheesing. It doesn't end and trivializes what separates Warframe from rest of the herd. 

Enviromental obstacles are fun to circumvent and give meaning to certain kits you would never use, just locking it down so the player can only rely on jumping and wall running just means stop making power kits and call it a day and tell your marketing department to print Warframe as Space Mario redefined. 

[o.0-]

Hmm, one thought went straight to this:

 

Nevertheless, the big values on fully ranked Mods seems to be the source of many imbalance claims on Warframes and Weapons.

I favor the idea of having mods scale to enemy level, so that we can still build and rank mods up to handle high level content, but have those mod values better match the games' content without needing to gimp oneself.

[texrei]

6 hours ago, Ninjaboy00 said:

I mean anything that removes any challenge from a game, whether it be instant crowd clears (Old Molecular Prime, to a certain extent Tonkor etc.) or just locks down the map and brings gameplay to a stop so I can watch another episode of Archer while I wait for the mission to end (again, I bring up pre-18.13 nerf Mirage with her Prism spam). In simple terms, if I'm able to watch Netflix without any attention to Warframe because either the entire map is locked down or I'm just simply invincible, then that's cheesing. At least in my definition anyhow.

Is invisibility cheesy?

[magusat999]

6 hours ago, SaucyTuckermax said:

So since the U18.13 was released, as you all know there has been a lot of backlash. And I just wanted to figure out something that doesn't make sense to me. I've noticed that a fair amount of people that are happy about the 18.13 nerfs (I am not one of them) have usually stated something like this in response to some of us who are justifiably salty:

"Your just sad because you can't 'cheese' anymore."

So...my question is...what exactly is 'cheese'??

Is cheese taking frost to ANY defense mission? Is cheese taking vauban to heiracon? Is cheese taking volt to vault runs so you can do them twice as fast? Is cheese using loki's invisibility as much as possible? Is cheese bringing limbo to banish hostages for sorties? Is cheese bringing mag (pre ner..I mean 'rework') to ANY corpus mission? Is cheese using ash? Like for anything?

How about weapons? Is a 5 forma'd lex prime pretty 'cheesy'? what about rubico...must be cheese. Tonkor? sancti tigris, ETC...

Point is, I'm really confused here...What is cheesing and what isn't considered cheesing??? The whole game is cheesing. If I'm understanding it correctly...who in the **** isn't cheesing and what are you suppossibly not cheesing with??

 

 

 

A lot of "intellectual" replies here, probably due to the way people learn how to structure an essay - it doesn't take all that to explain what people who say "cheese" means. Its very simple:

When people say "cheese" in reference to an ability, they mean "ability", but in an offensive tone. They object to abilities, and in order to identify with a specific group of people who think alike about abilities, they use the term "cheese" as a demeaning alternate for "ability" or "cheesing" to say "using an ability". That's simply all it means, and the purpose of using that is group identification - or in some cases hopeful acceptance.

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

10 minutes ago, texrei said:

Is invisibility cheesy?

I'm sure it's on the fun polices radar and will be labeled as cheese soon enough, if it hasn't already.

[Madway7]

12 minutes ago, texrei said:

Is invisibility cheesy?

Only in spy missions I guess.

[brucifer1]

In dev stream 75 Scott mentioned that warframes are supposed to be OP , on a one to one basis the warframe is supposed to outclass the enemies and need to as they will be swarming you with vastly superior numbers. The goal he said was to remove "cheese" that took all the challenge away and made the game boring. If we use that statement to define "cheese" then we are all at least on the same page.

However we run into a problem at end game where level 100 plus enemies are as powerful as the warframes or damn close to it. To deal with the poor enemy scaling and the fact that weapons and mods do not scale people try to combine certain mod combos with weapon and frame abilities to deal with the now vastly over powered enemies that still have the numerical advantage but are also vastly too powerful. When people do find a combo of mods and abilities that allow them to deal with the end game scaling nightmare they are then OP and considered "cheeseing" if they use these tricks anywhere else in the game. This is inevitable until DE works on the scaling of enemies or scaling abilities and mods. At end game the warframes are not OP, (in relation to a single enemy), as intended and any solution invented by players to deal with that will result in exploiting combos that unbalance the game in all but the end game scenarios. Since weapons, abilities and mods don't scale there is no way you will ever build a good end game unit without it being considered OP and cheesey for the other 95% of the game

Edited May 30, 2016 by brucifer1

[Pyus]

Azima looks like a pizza cutter and is not cheesy, this game make no sense.

[Hesyol]

While I agree that "cheese" exists and some powers like Bladestorm are very unbalanced. BUT on the other hand a lot of people are playing this game to feel themselves as a really powerful killing machines. When you use 4th ability you really want to see something big happening. That's a part of fun in this game. And now we have things like Valkyr that hides from enemies after using 4...

[(PSN)Magic_Snipe730]

With cheesing the term just makes thing easier to the point where its no fun, no challenge to it. I just ran a sorite interception as the last mission with a blind mirage(pre patch since consoles dont have the update yet), that is cheesing same with ash and his 4 to win mechanic while his other abilities are meh. Smoke screen is great and all but only usable in reviving, since when you attack you go de-invisable. These nerfs kinda needed to happen to make the game challenging again, but at the same time feel a tad OP than the enemy 

[Sar.K.Asmus]

9 hours ago, Ninjaboy00 said:

my definition of cheese has always been simply: "any item, weapon, warframe, sentinel, gear item or any other loadout item with the ability to either trivialise all content ranging from Mercury to Sortie 3, or to remove any form of difficulty from a mission (e.g. Pre-18.13 nerf Mirage or pre-18.13 nerf Trin, and to an extent current Trin etc.)"

"remove any form of difficulty from a mission"

Snow Globe removes any form of difficulty in defense, mobile defense and excavation.

Vauban removes any form of difficulty against infested.

That means by your definition Snow Globe, Repelling Bastille and Vortex can be considered as "cheesing"?

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

Too OP & people called you cheesing, too weak & people called you a noob...

So if a frost didnt use snow globe in def bcos he doesnt want people to call him cheesing & then a bombard 1 hit the cryopod, you call him what? A noob? Idiot? OP?

[morningstar999]

you need some 'easy/cheesey frames' though I know some really casual players that don't want to grind and grind and challenge themselves, they just want a bit of causal playing for fun, so let them have their fun with easier frames... if you want a challenge you can easily pick another frame. 

warframe shouldn't need to be a chore for people, you should be able to put as much work (or as little) as desired, you should be able to do it your way for FUN, it's a game not work. 

Personally I like more challenging frames, but not everyone does so nerfing frames so some players is not the way to go about it however. 

the way it's going all frames will end up the same and the varierty will be gone as you cant specialize in anything either. 

[ArcusVeles]

People will give a lot of bad answers to what they think "cheese" is.  From a game development point of view though, cheese is your players using some game mechanic to avoid intended gameplay.  So, say, Mirage blinding the entire map over and over and over again so Interception just becomes one long zero kills waiting game instead of a fight to keep control of these four points, or a Trinity rendering everyone 1% short of raw invulnerability so that even the most complex bosses are reduced to a trial of patience without any threat of failure.

Warframe has been so full of cheese (Sound Quake/Prism/Radial Blind/etc. etc.) of all different flavors and sorts (Draco spam builds) for so long (200 restores of each type per mission per player) that it's natural that people have different ideas of what is "broken" and what is intended, normal gameplay, and that's entirely DE's fault.  Not only have they continued to escalate how the players disable the enemies' game elements over the years, they have escalated how the enemies have disabled our game elements (nullifiers, cc immune enemies, ancient auras, etc.), and it's up to them now to decide how this arms race is going to end.

We players have gotten the nerf bat first, but they've said in a post that more hotfixes will come next week to hopefully bring enemies down some to match our loss of power, and ideally this is all the first small steps in a long trek toward bringing the game down out of the spiral of escalation it's been in since its inception.

[Sasquatchias]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

Too OP & people called you cheesing, too weak & people called you a noob...

So if a frost didnt use snow globe in def bcos he doesnt want people to call him cheesing & then a bombard 1 hit the cryopod, you call him what? A noob? Idiot? OP?

Frost using a snowglobe isn't cheesing, something like a Mirage constantly throwing her disco-ball, incapacitating enemies but not killing them so a smaller amount spawn / no more spawn is considered cheese. 

That is what she was doing in Interception, and that is considered cheese since you are actively exploiting game mechanics in a "cheese-y" way.

[blackheartstar_pc]

4 hours ago, Hesyol said:

a lot of people are playing this game to feel themselves as a really powerful killing machines. When you use 4th ability you really want to see something big happening. That's a part of fun in this game. And now we have things like Valkyr that hides from enemies after using 4...

Truth