The problem with low-geared players in late game content, and a potential solution

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

Taxing... I don't see much of a problem, since usually the one inviting carries their weight, though yeah, powerleveling can be bad since people spend time without honing their skills or learning what they can do, and if anything, it would promote people to clear all nodes, or at least unlock them all, so they can at least do alerts. Would be nice if certain alerts let people taxi others though, anything non cosmetic could be taxi, helmets and non stat changing skins wouldn't allow you to taxi as those do not change your gameplay in any way, therefore losing an helmet early doesn't slow down your progress at all.

A solo only mission per node... Hmmm... if it serves as a pseudo tutorial, it doesn't actually tells you how to, but is structured in a way that you learn (even though regular missions can do that), not a bad idea. Usually the problem is how people don't follow the objective (like hallway heroes), and how hard it is to explain everything in the game without making it too strict and boring. Some quests are nice for that, but only if you do said quests before the game mode they introduce you to appears in a planet, because a tutorial for everything will just make it boring, even though we do have tips and how to's in the game, maybe we need Lotus to tell us harder about it.

 

I once posted about making Frame specific mastery tests which would in turn unlock the passives for said frame if you beat them all, and one of the objectives was precisely help players realise the potential and situations where each power can be useful, because many players overlook abilities because they focus too much on one or 2 of them, which is what new players tend to do with their limited knowledge. However, despite that I find it a good idea, it's also far fetched because of how many frames we have, which can make it kinda tedious, but then, we don't even get frames that fast unless we charge plat.
I mention this as it comes into the "solo mission" type of thing, though more in a "tutorial" way.


One issue that I see with players with low gear, is how there's no reason to make that gear any better, even though they can do so, there's just no reason to do so because it would be a waste of forma and potato. I mean, would you forma/potato a Boltor when you know you would get a better Boltor later and that the forma/potato you spent will be wasted? Probably not. Though I'm not going into that in here, I've made a thread about it, you can look through my profile and find it easily (I don't post many threads anyway).

I kinda of agree that we need something to incentive people to work on the chart and to get better, but it's hard to when there's always negatives, so sacrifices will need to be made.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Hi @letter13.

Im so glad a moderator has gotten on board with this topic. I wanted to give my 2 cents on the issue as well.

I think things like taxing is not a problem. Personally I like carrying friends who just started playing and such. When it comes to star map content I am usually alright with it.

But i think sorties, and raids should have an MR cap. I also think void missions should have a kick option, it gets really awkward when you ask for a frost on a t4 defense and the guy is master rank 7 and has no clue how to play his class. Sure I dont mind helping the guy, but not while im doing an endtier void mission.

[Terraziel]

As I see it the only sensible solution is basic matchmaking settings, give players a way to filter out those they don't want to play with, whether they are basing that on a minimum mastery rank or conclave level is up to them. 

The obvious down side to that is fragmenting the player base but frankly that's what most of the other suggestions do anyway. What's that you don't want to play with me unless I meet your arbitrary standards? That sure to make new players feel welcome.

 

[Wandering_Cyberdragoness]

I think a simple readiness test, in line with mastery tests, would be useful as a gating system for sorties, raids, etc. 

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

I think this topic is mainly meant toward Sortie. How do we ensure people doing Sortie pull their own weights in Public Lobby? We need to come up with a way to ensure someone is "ready" for Sortie.

1. No - Mastery Rank do not equal skills or readiness
2. No - Maxed gear check. Everyone mods differently and has different builds. Potatoes and Forma can mislead how strong a weapon/frame is.
3. No - Conclave ratings. Again, everyone mods differently. I can bring all the "useless" mods and still have high conclave.

I like to suggest something radical. How about having a "change to solo" mid-game. What this mean is that you can leave mission anytime, host migrate, but the mission still continue from where you left. This will allow you to ditch someone who is "lacking" or AFK.  

[Epsik-kun]

Why would you want to remove taxi? It's like one of two and a half ways of plainly helping random people. I got taxi through all of the bosses at the start of my game, and that was a really fun experience. I even done that once for someone else. Why do you people hate fun so much?

[Tsoe]

i Love the test node idea

Should as well create special Void mission in that regard for each tower or maybe per ennemie rank

Edited June 17, 2016 by Tsoe

[AsuraKyu]

DE had talk of a difficulty setting for missions awhile ago which I still feel is the way to go. Being able to select 20, 40, and 60+ minutes of a survival or a specific wave requirement before actually starting should prevent that as everyone will know what they are in for, opposed to we just calling a wave or time mid-mission. I hate to say it but something like destiny's light level would help quite a bit in terms of knowing the strength of someones mods/gear, but even then the diversity of warframe presents itself as a blessing and a curse. Having highly ranked mods and forma'd weapon to support those in no way means you've modded them correctly, I believe it will more often than not though. This would prevent low geared players by having a somewhat restricted or suggested power rating of sorts. 

[TheGuyver]

2 hours ago, Letter13 said:

The main question is how to bar players based on their current skill level and/or quality of gear, as this is what determines whether a player can take on late-game content--whether they have the knowledge/experience of knowing how to deal with certain enemies and if they have the appropriate tools for dealing with them.

The two main objectives are:

1. Prevent players who cannot pull their own weight from joining late game missions,
2. Ensure that players who join late game content are able to pull their own weight in missions.

The two main steps to achieve these objectives respectively, I feel, are:

1. Prevent missions from starting unless all players in the lobby have unlocked the node (exception for Void/Derelict missions), which prevents taxiing players who have not yet unlocked the node.
2. Include 1~2 solo-only missions per planet, that players need to clear to progress along the starchart (such as the first mission, or a critical-node which needs to be cleared to unlock the boss node or access the nodes leading up to the boss), which act as a test of skill/gear level to make sure the player has powerful enough gear to take on missions in that area.

For the first step, implementing that should be relatively easy, and its purpose is clear.

1 & 2. How would you truly determine if the player can hold their own weight? Any rank four+ player can be dragged through the star chart for unlocks and taxi'd from node to node. While mastery is not a clear measure of a skill, neither is having nodes on planets unlocked or cheesing a (what you suggested below) solo node with a nova or rhino. While I don't like this particular line of though, perhaps the pve conclave score could be factored in to some extent like previous tac alerts. It would have to alternate depending on what the sorties have on a daily basis though, like a bow only one would require less conclave rating, but still check to make sure a rank four player isn't bringing an unranked mk-1 paris and fresh level 30 excal. I personally detest the thought of "gear checking/gear score/etc" after playing wow for so long though because it just spreads elitism around far too much for my taste.

1b. I have nothing to really interject to this, this is a pretty solid idea.

2b. This would be a good idea to some extent, but would need to be greatly expanded upon. It would tie in with your previous suggestion fairly nicely.

[Tsoe]

Yeah it s a annoying to lauch a t4 surv and see ppl run out after 10min

Void endless missions should have more options..

[LinXiaoWong]

This not viable, because the gear and mr not mean that player who joining to a squad will be active or just leeching.

For motivation need better rewards and let players player in group a mission. Only restriction what I can imagine if add higher mastery requirements to the higher capped planets which probably harder content than the early level and medium level. Deny the taxiing also not a good solution because some better rewards are in higher level missions and rarely come for new players rewards which can boost their arsenal and give more chance to be viable in higher level. Opening all star chart maps are boring because each planet have almost the same looks and tiles. Mostly the only difference the level and variation of mobs but that itself not makes you pro if you forced to do something what you don't like to do. I am personally missing 30-40 nodes but I feel no need to finish them because I am enjoying the medium and pre high level content.

There is no real solution to remove lower level players unless you restrict the maps with mastery but then probably you lose a good amount of player whom want reach fast higher levels. The most problematic thing the game is grinding and currently cannot provide more than this and peoples burn out because nothing to do. Removing mods, contents and "balancing" only works if you can provide fun from other sources but before this game needs evolve into more than a grindfest.

[RoboticApplesWithLasers]

Why lock at all? no starchart is late game content,  Most of us can Solo Sorties or whatever the game can throw at us, who cares if they pull their own weight, worst case scenario they don't get revived.

[Tymerc]

I just encountered a low level leeching in sorties. Immediately left the game to start over solo. I am not playing the game for you, especially in that type of mission that can reward all the way up to legendary cores. 

[Katinka]

3 hours ago, Letter13 said:

 

1. Prevent missions from starting unless all players in the lobby have unlocked the node (exception for Void/Derelict missions), which prevents taxiing players who have not yet unlocked the node.

From my personal experience I would not have liked that to have been the rule when I started.  I started a bit later than my friends but quickly caught up by playing a little bit longer than they did each night.  We were working our way through the star chart, opening up new planets and their nodes so we could catch all those tasty Aura alerts, back in the days when I only had two and there was no trading...  Anyway, one night we unlocked Sedna and my friends were tired and figured that was a good place to stop for the night but I was eager to get Saryn (and to fight the only female boss in the game) so I stayed up and blitzed through half a dozen missions so that I'd have Merrow unlocked and be able to taxi my friends there the next night.  If everyone had to have the node unlocked then my eagerness would have been pointless as I'd have to wait for them to catch up.

[Azrael]

2 hours ago, Noamuth said:

I would like to see taxi moved to private lobbie only, i.e. you have to be set to friends/invite only matchmaking before you can take that newblette to Pluto. (and of course, no node unlocking afterwards)

I support this much more than I support the removing of taxis altogether. Taxis are a reasonable thing to have in the game and removing them would lead to more frustration and resentment due to the alerts system. Removing taxis also would lower the value of playing with your friends, if those friends aren't veterans. Moving taxis to private lobbies would be reasonable, and it would still allow taxis through recruiting.

I like the second step, and agree that MR is not the way to go.

However, I doubt very much that any of this will prevent incompetent people from joining your public games. You are always going to run the risk of somebody joining who has no idea how to play the mission type, or who just doesn't care enough to avoid making things harder for you. And this is okay! Anything that might actually prevent this would end up being bad for the game (i.e. kickvote, view loadouts before "approving" a player, etc.). The real solution is to grin and bear it, and recognize that part of your job as a high MR player is to help newer players learn to play. Just tell him what he's doing wrong!

[(PSN)Doctor-Blitz-]

3 hours ago, ranks21 said:

if I was a new player and coming to this game  paying my money for in game stuff and it is restricting me as how you are suggesting then I would uninstall it. mr locking contents is only frustrating players and its counter productive, it has no bearings on a player's ability to point and shoot or press a button to cc a weak game..

plenty of vets are noobs just as you have natural gamers that are elites  regardless of the type of games they play.. in the end of all the jealousy of who is better at what  it still comes down to money talks and bs walks.

This happens all the time and nobody uninstalls the game. You couldn't join a Destiny raid with low level characters.

[Letter13]

Added some more information to the opening post; highlights are as follows:

• A lot of players have mentioned and have made very good arguments about allowing taxiing to occur in fully private (invite-only) matches, it wouldn't unlock a node, but it would allow high-gear players to show their low-gear friends what sorts of cool things are in store later down the line, etc. *This makes a lot of sense, thank you to those who have mentioned it!
• For atypical nodes/missions, such as sorties or event missions, a hybrid Mastery/Starchart-Progression system could be used; but it would function as an OR condition; such as "Must be mastery rank X, or have cleared planet Y" to access. This way lower mastery rank players who have high levels of skill (or powerful enough gear) that are capable enough to take on late-game tasks can access sorties as well
• Starchart 3.0 is super close as well, it is right around the corner(tm) [Soon(tm)-ing intensifies]. A lot of what it brings may invalidate some of what I'm proposing here, but in the event that nodes and matchmaking function in a similar way to what we have now, these may be good suggestions for what to incorporate as par of Starchart 3.0 before its release. In that respect, this thread functions both as feedback for Starchart 2.0 as it is now, and as a short list of things that I'd like to see in Starchart 3.0!

[RahuHordika]

I just wanted to ask one thing tho, how many of you know that taxiing nodes already doesn't unlock them? Just for mere curiosity.

[MagPrime]

12 minutes ago, RahuHordika said:

I just wanted to ask one thing tho, how many of you know that taxiing nodes already doesn't unlock them? Just for mere curiosity.

Judging by how many people ask for that feature, here and other threads, if say not a lot.

[Lactamid]

While I've done a lot of soloing I think one of the big draw factors for this game is playing together. Having some nodes being solo only might end up feeling like a chore.
If they were solo only I think that tying them to your personal progression via lore/story should be considered.
This is because one guy might have unlocked planet A before B and the other C before B. Having choice is fun and it might be tricky, but feeling that you yourself got more involved along the way would at least interest me enough to go on.

It would also be a chance to give the players a bit of story, further the world building and provide reasons for doing stuff.
Ie:
Planet name:
Short lore-thingy: (Earth) Origin of the human race and once home to the mighty Orokin empire, Earth is now ridden with mutated fauna and overgrown ruins. (Neptune) The Corpus stronghold on Neptune dates back to the trade federations solar expansion days yada yada something... 
Environmental info: Day and night cycle, rain, thunder storms, freezing temperatures, low gravity, vacum zones, fires, wind etc.
Factions: Displays node domination - Corpus: 3, Grineer: 14 (might also provide more info of what the factions are doing on the planet, ship building, resource gathering etc, though I'd prefer if it was tied to the node itself in greater detail).
Boss: Evil McBossy VI

 

3 hours ago, ranks21 said:

-snip-

Spelling and grammar are just there to help structure the language and get others the result closest to your intent. Anyway, off topic.

3 hours ago, DeltaPhantom said:

I think you should all be ashamed of yourselves. Wait for Starchart 3.0.

It might just be that OP wants DE to think about this when making the new starchart? As there wasn't any rude remarks it's more likely that he just cares for how the game is conceived. Caring about something is hardly something you should be ashamed for.

[Cray]

7 minutes ago, Lactamid said:

It might just be that OP wants DE to think about this when making the new starchart? As there wasn't any rude remarks it's more likely that he just cares for how the game is conceived. Caring about something is hardly something you should be ashamed for.

That was mostly a playful jab, but the point was that people are discussing how to change progression, when there's a pending overhaul that will throw the current progression setup out the window.

Edited June 17, 2016 by DeltaPhantom

[MacabreHaze]

Honestly, what is high gear and what is low gear?

Its not like we go from copper to Iron to Steal to electrum to cystal to void like MMOs do. 

Now maybe you're talking mods. But there is a difference between Maglav and something like Vitality. I could have all kinds of mods like maglav all maxed out on my warframe. Could have spent hours farming Forma, days building them and keep putting them into my warframe, but despite all that, My Mastery rank would be pretty low, even with a 'maxed out' warframe and weapon collection. 

Then you've got to also factor in what weapons you have, what damages they do etc. Slashing I'm told is absolutely horrible against grineer. So If I come to a grineer mission with slashy-mctooter, the weapon would have lower 'weight pulling'. 

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

deleted because 4got to quote

Edited June 17, 2016 by (PS4)A_SimpleName

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

1 hour ago, RahuHordika said:

I just wanted to ask one thing tho, how many of you know that taxiing nodes already doesn't unlock them? Just for mere curiosity.

IDK about PC but on consoles, taxiing someone to a normal node DO unlock it. Taxiing someone to an ALERT do NOT unlock it.

[Azrael]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said:

IDK about PC but on consoles, taxiing someone to a normal node DO unlock it.

Really? This is the first I've heard of this. If this is true, then it's an... odd... decision on DE's part. I'm not sure why the two systems would have different rules regarding this. This would also explain why so many people ask for this on the forums.